4350 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They're so sweet! I just want to congratulate them!


With my weapons.

"I'll relinquish one bullet; where do you want it?" - Commander Shepard

That one line is enough to make me want to play the Mass Effect series. That's just plain epic. I would say awesome, but that word has forever been ruined for me.

[Lewie]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They're so sweet! I just want to congratulate them!


With my weapons.

"I'll relinquish one bullet; where do you want it?" - Commander Shepard

louise101 wrote...

I guess proximity is not an issue, if you fully support mage freedom, you support it everywhere in Thedas. Or is it just kirkwall? Tevinter is maybe an important issue, the magisters there have many slaves on hand even for spells. If they cast a high powered spell they have a few 'slaves' on hand just in case. They drain their blood spell finished. Is it right for mages to have a few slaves or buckets of blood on hand for this? Yet its legal to have slaves underfoot.

I must be misunderstanding this.  It looks like you're trying to say if you support freedom, you have to invariably support slavery.

I didn't imply anything magisters have slaves that is a fact in Thedas. I just wondered if the freedom that people argue over is only because of kirkwall or is it based on the bigger picture of Thedas.

[Rifneno]

louise101 wrote...

I didn't imply anything magisters have slaves that is a fact in Thedas. I just wondered if the freedom that people argue over is only because of kirkwall or is it based on the bigger picture of Thedas.

I can't recall having seen one person say they shouldn't be bound by reasonable laws like everyone else, and I can only remember one person saying they should be given complete freedom with no oversight.  Almost all the pro-mage posters agree that there need to be oversight and a group with anti-magic abilities to handle the psychos like Quentin.  We're just saying that the templars go *way* too far, and the Chantry clearly sucks at it.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

I guess proximity is not an issue, if you fully support mage freedom, you support it everywhere in Thedas. Or is it just kirkwall?

I'd say more than a few support it everywhere in Thedas. People shouldn't be forced into servitude.

louise101 wrote...

Tevinter is maybe an important issue, the magisters there have many slaves on hand even for spells. If they cast a high powered spell they have a few 'slaves' on hand just in case. They drain their blood spell finished. Is it right for mages to have a few slaves or buckets of blood on hand for this? Yet its legal to have slaves underfoot.

There was a Magister who tried to end slavery. Maybe Feynriel will be the one who is capable of changing the laws of the Imperium, since he is apprenticed to a Magister now, has elven blood flowing through his veins, and is a powerful mage.

[Beerfish]

And this why it's tough at this point to be in favour of all these extra freedoms. Too much vagueness, "reasonable laws", "some kind of oversight". The head of the mage circle handled the quentin situation very very badly. (As did the town guards.) The only guy that really worked hard on trying to stop Qunetin was emric the templar.

[Beerfish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There was a Magister who tried to end slavery. Maybe Feynriel will be the one who is capable of changing the laws of the Imperium, since he is apprenticed to a Magister now, has elven blood flowing through his veins, and is a powerful mage.

The same dude that was easily fooled by two demons in the fade and had to be rescued (or tranquilled at the request of Marethari) by Hawke?

[Rifneno]

Beerfish wrote...

And this why it's tough at this point to be in favour of all these extra freedoms. Too much vagueness, "reasonable laws", "some kind of oversight". The head of the mage circle handled the quentin situation very very badly. (As did the town guards.) The only guy that really worked hard on trying to stop Qunetin was emric the templar.

Right.  Because I don't spend the time to come up with a complex system since, you know, it's completely pointless as I'm not working for Bioware, that means we should keep a system that tortures mages if a random passer-by says hello or worse-than-kills them if they get caught writing a letter to an apostate.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There was a Magister who tried to end slavery. Maybe Feynriel will be the one who is capable of changing the laws of the Imperium, since he is apprenticed to a Magister now, has elven blood flowing through his veins, and is a powerful mage.

The same dude that was easily fooled by two demons in the fade and had to be rescued (or tranquilled at the request of Marethari) by Hawke?

The same Feynriel who went to Tevinter to get training on how to handle his powerful abilities and is apprenticed to a Magister.

[TEWR]

Beerfish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There was a Magister who tried to end slavery. Maybe Feynriel will be the one who is capable of changing the laws of the Imperium, since he is apprenticed to a Magister now, has elven blood flowing through his veins, and is a powerful mage.

The same dude that was easily fooled by two demons in the fade and had to be rescued (or tranquilled at the request of Marethari) by Hawke?

to beerfish, Feynriel realized they were demons on his own if you play it that way. Torpor tells you that this is the only way for the other spirits to not succeed. If you tell him they're demons, that makes him unstable. He also travels to Tevinter to master his powers, train under a magister, and in his letter tells you he's gotten much more powerful and can control his powers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think it's more likely that the Tevinters would seek to use his unique abilities. Unless he proves cunning and resourceful and uses his powers to bring about some change.

I find Feynriel's ability to be fascinating and terrifying. The perfect assassin.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think it's more likely that the Tevinters would seek to use his unique abilities. Unless he proves cunning and resourceful and uses his powers to bring about some change.

I find Feynriel's ability to be fascinating and terrifying. The perfect assassin.

In today's news, 19 people died in their sleep all within the scope of 10 minutes.



I think Feynriel will actually prove to be a threat to the Tevinter traditional lifestyle. He may bring about change for the society there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I think Feynriel will actually prove to be a threat to the Tevinter traditional lifestyle. He may bring about change for the society there.

I doubt the Tevinter imperium is not aware of exceptional people like that. Especially Ancient Tevinter.

They probably have counter measures, otherwise I can't see how it became such a great empire if the magisters were out of control in fighting each other.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I think Feynriel will actually prove to be a threat to the Tevinter traditional lifestyle. He may bring about change for the society there.

I doubt the Tevinter imperium is not aware of exceptional people like that. Especially Ancient Tevinter.

They probably have counter measures, otherwise I can't see how it became such a great empire if the magisters were out of control in fighting each other.

They probably think he can be used as a puppet, but he may pull a Larsa Solidor (FFXII) on them. It's hard to say really. Somniari are rare.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think Feynriel will actually prove to be a threat to the Tevinter traditional lifestyle. He may bring about change for the society there.

Given that Hawke is getting a reputation in the Imperium (according to Feynriel), maybe Hawke might be able to assist in his efforts (especially a mage Hawke who is descended from both Magister Parthalan and the apostate Parthalan who aided Calenhad in creating a new nation and becoming King of Ferelden).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Screw Hawke. I want to play a real Tevinter magister.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

And this why it's tough at this point to be in favour of all these extra freedoms. Too much vagueness, "reasonable laws", "some kind of oversight". The head of the mage circle handled the quentin situation very very badly. (As did the town guards.) The only guy that really worked hard on trying to stop Qunetin was emric the templar.

It's not fair to point to Orsino's handling of Quentin as if to somehow show this as proof that mages can't ever be trusted to act reasonably.  The deck was already stacked against Orsino.  If he'd been living in the Ferelden Circle, this would be a fairer point, but he wasn't.  I am not arguing that he was right in sheltering a blood mage, but holy ****, why do people expect that he should have behaved like a paragon of virtue?  He's not living in a Circle with reasonable templars or a sane Knight-Commander.  

People cannot be expected not to resort to extreme measures when they are faced with brutal conditions.  Even when they do something indisputably foul, that doesn't change the fact that they were living under circumstances that made it difficult for them to have any reason to behave properly.  When you're damned if you do and yet damned if you don't, then what motivation do you have to live by the rules?

[TEWR]

http://dragonage.wik...Needs_Rescuing?


Apparently Feynriel plays a big part in this quest.

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

And this why it's tough at this point to be in favour of all these extra freedoms. Too much vagueness, "reasonable laws", "some kind of oversight". The head of the mage circle handled the quentin situation very very badly. (As did the town guards.) The only guy that really worked hard on trying to stop Qunetin was emric the templar.

Right.  Because I don't spend the time to come up with a complex system since, you know, it's completely pointless as I'm not working for Bioware, that means we should keep a system that tortures mages if a random passer-by says hello or worse-than-kills them if they get caught writing a letter to an apostate.

No kidding.  I wrote this lengthy post on why I thought the Circle in its present incarnation was unjust, and got this guy post a long response asking me to detail what I thought a better answer would be.  Sounded for all the world like he expected me to draw up an extensive analysis.  I mean, dude, I'm not a Chantry-appointed analyst working in Thedas, just because I can see the existing system as unjust doesn't mean I'm going to draw up a thesis-level paper on the solution.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

So did Andraste always intend to end up with the mages suffering 1000 years of imprisonment or was she misinterpreted by later people who formed the Chantry?

Even if she was an OGB, which idea I like too, we don't know much about OGBs other than expecting them to be powerful.  Just because an OGB might wield magic, they might still not feel any kinship to mages.

We may never know

I'd imagine it was the Chantry that twisted her words.  They're very adapt at that.  For instance, here is the passage that they use to condemn blood magic.

Foul and corrupt are you
Who have taken My gift
And turned it against My children.

Funny, the first thing I thought when I read that was templars using lyrium to oppress and borderline enslave mages.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They probably think he can be used as a puppet, but he may pull a Larsa Solidor (FFXII) on them. It's hard to say really. Somniari are rare.

GAH!  Don't say that!  I've already been wanting to replay that stupid game lately and my 194th PS2 burned out its laser already.  

Silfren wrote...

No kidding.  I wrote this lengthy post on why I thought the Circle in its present incarnation was unjust, and got this guy post a long response asking me to detail what I thought a better answer would be.  Sounded for all the world like he expected me to draw up an extensive analysis.  I mean, dude, I'm not a Chantry-appointed analyst working in Thedas, just because I can see the existing system as unjust doesn't mean I'm going to draw up a thesis-level paper on the solution.

Still an improvement for him.  The first time I saw him debate the issue, he pretty much tried to rewrite the definition of the word "innocent" to mean "people the templars don't want to abuse or kill."

Modifié par Rifneno, 10 mai 2011 - 03:39 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Screw Hawke. I want to play a real Tevinter magister.

I second this many times over.

[TEWR]

I'd imagine it was the Chantry that twisted her words. They're very adapt at that. For instance, here is the passage that they use to condemn blood magic.

Foul and corrupt are you
Who have taken My gift
And turned it against My children.

Funny, the first thing I thought when I read that was templars using lyrium to oppress and borderline enslave mages.

I thought the same exact thing, sort of.


Also, you're welcome for the FFXII reference

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2011 - 03:54 .

[Deztyn]

Silfren wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Assuming of course you believe what he tells you to be the truth--and I do, since all his experiences actually make his contempt for the Circle plenty understandable.

Anders isn't only Anders by DA2 Justice influences his thoughts and actions. And Justice believed that keeping Ser Pounce-A-Lot was a great injustice committed against felines. Between his possession, his paranoia, the fact that his author admits she was writing him as mentally ill and Gaider saying we shouldn't take everything Anders says as unbiased truth-- I think taking anything Anders says with a grain of salt is a perfectly logical reaction.

*goes back to lurking*

I never thought that Anders was unbiased, just so we're clear.  He's obviously biased, and in a huge bloody way. But here's the thing.  We see that within all the Andrastian nations, the Chantry's official word is that magic is a curse.  Even when they call it a gift, they still tack on that it's also a curse.  (See Knight Commander Greagoir in the Mage Origin of DA:O), and that locking mages away in Circles is given divine sanction.  And within even a more benign, liberal Circle--supposedly the most liberal and pro-mage of all the Circles, I've read, you have these problems:

[*]Magic is held to be a curse to the point where some mages actually come to hate their own existence.  See Keili, of the Ferelden Circle, whom you meet in the mage origin and also in Broken Circle. 

Fear is inevitable. Mages are prey for demons. Being weak minded allows them to be possessed and turn into engines of destruction capable of wiping out entire villages in a very short amount of time. This is a fact. How often does it happen? I don't know. But it does happen. It happened to Connor. It happened to Amelia. It happened to Olivia. It can happen to Feynriel.

As long as becoming an abomination remains a real possibility, Chantry teachings aren't required for many to consider being a mage a curse. It's naive to think otherwise. And irresponsible to train mages without teaching them the consequences of failure.

[*]Jowan sees the Circle as a prison, and views being Tranquiled with horror, and the Mage Warden can be RP'd to agree. 

Jowan was weak.

[*]Even Wynne, who takes a more moderate approach and definitely does see the benefits to the Circle, acknowledges it as a prison and concedes that it's not ideal.  She also points out that the Chantry would sooner genocide all mages everywhere than see them free.  Also, she talks about working with Alistair to make life better for mages, as well as trying to encourage the Mage Warden to do their part in making mages' lot improve

[*]First Enchanter Irving, a moderate like Wynne, who understands the need for templars and stands against Uldred, knowing full well what the danger would be of having no templars around at all, is happy if the Mage Warden requests Circle autonomy as their boon.

When has anyone, even the most pro-templar players around, denied that being a circle mage kinda sucks? Of course it could be better. Thedas on a whole could be much better. It's just a question of how bad it really is, especially when compared to the lot of the average citizen of Thedas. A people who on a whole are uneducated, live in what we would consider poverty and have very, very few of the rights we take for granted. Mages are disadvantaged in many ways, but they're also quite privileged in others.

I'm fond of this quote of Sebastian's from one of his banters with Anders:

"You were given to the Circle. I was given to the Chantry. Hawke was driven away from home by the Darkspawn. None of us are free."

[*]The blood mage in Broken Circle insists that she joined Uldred because of the promised freedom from the Chantry.  Yes, it could be pointed out that she's trying to save her own life, but even so: she insists that her use of blood magic was to give her the power to fight the templars.  She didn't want the death and destruction Uldred brought, but merely wanted to live without the "templars watching, always watching."

Weak.

Even if we got rid of the Chantry controlled Circles, any system that has even the slightest chance of working to control magic and limit the chances of abominations popping up would require mages to have some kind of close supervision, if not by the templars than by some other group. I'm not terribly moved by her situation.

[*]And then again, in Kirkwall, of course, you have heaps upon heaps of abuses.  The rape, the torture, the illegal Tranquil-ing.  All of which is made explicit through overheard conversations, screaming, talking directly with NPCs, both mage and templar alike.  It isn't merely filtered to Hawke from Anders alone.

Nearly every instance of outright abuse is linked to two Templars: Alrik and Karras. There's nothing to suggest that it's allowed or endorsed by the Chantry or the Templar Order, it's a few sadists using their power to hurt others. This is not unique to templars or the Circles. If Karras was a guard or a mercenary or a bartender, he'd probably still be a sadistic bastard. The only thing that would change is the identity of his victims.

Idunna, a blood mage who was responsible for putting demons in templars as part of a plot to corrupt the entire order isn't killed or made tranquil. Just put in solitary confinement. Idunna. The Tranquil Solution was one deranged man who dies in Act II. The templars on the whole were not responsible.

A tranquil will be whipped if his merchandise disappears? We're talking about a society that executes people for stealing. This is mild by comparison, and not something that is unique to Templars.

Point being, even with Anders' own obvious bias, we get enough of a picture of the overall scheme of things.  When moderates like Wynne and Irving, in particular, who don't despise the Circle and yet acknowledge its many problems and even are glad to hear of being granted autonomy...well, that speaks volumes, don't you think?

It says that Circle life isn't ideal. It says that reforms are needed. That doesn't translate to continent wide rebellion and a dissolution of the Circles entirely.

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 04:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

Fear is inevitable. Mages are prey for demons. Being weak minded allows them to be possessed and turn into engines of destruction capable of wiping out entire villages in a very short amount of time. This is a fact. How often does it happen? I don't know. But it does happen. It happened to Connor. It happened to Amelia. It happened to Olivia. It can happen to Feynriel.

Fear is inevitable? We have the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, the kingdom of Rivain, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven to attest that other cultures don't share the Andrastian view on magic or mages.

Deztyn wrote...

As long as becoming an abomination remains a real possibility, Chantry teachings aren't required for many to consider being a mage a curse. It's naive to think otherwise. And irresponsible to train mages without teaching them the consequences of failure.

The Chantry's teachings apparently are required to provoke the kind of responses that have Andrastians trying to murder mages simply for being mages (as Wynne describes) when we know alternative cultures don't hate mages simply for having magical ability.

Deztyn wrote...

Jowan was weak.

That must explain why he devotes his life to protecting refugees from the darkspawn as Master Levyn.

Deztyn wrote...

When has anyone, even the most pro-templar players around, denied that being a circle mage kinda sucks? Of course it could be better. Thedas on a whole could be much better. It's just a question of how bad it really is, especially when compared to the lot of the average citizen of Thedas. A people who on a whole are uneducated, live in what we would consider poverty and have very, very few of the rights we take for granted. Mages are disadvantaged in many ways, but they're also quite privileged in others.

We can ask the child mage Ella how privleged she felt when Ser Alrik threatened to make her tranquil and rape her. We can ask Karl how privleged he felt as he begged Anders to kill him because he didn't want to spend the rest of his life as a "templar puppet." We can ask one of the mages how privleged they feel to be in the Gallows if it didn't mean they would get 30 lashes for taking to a civilian. Remind me how privleged a mage should feel to live in an enviornment where their humanity can be stripped from them or how they can be killed in an act of genocide for something no Circle mage had anything to do with.

Deztyn wrote...
I'm fond of this quote of Sebastian's from one of his banters with Anders:
"You were given to the Circle. I was given to the Chantry. Hawke was driven away from home by the Darkspawn. None of us are free."

Sebastian's quote is pretty flimsy since being a brother of the Chantry means he never has to worry about getting made tranquil or getting killed in an act of genocide by the templars.

Deztyn wrote...

Weak.

Even if we got rid of the Chantry controlled Circles, any system that has even the slightest chance of working to control magic and limit the chances of abominations popping up would require mages to have some kind of close supervision, if not by the templars than by some other group. I'm not terribly moved by her situation.

Weak? I respectfully disagree. Wanting to be free from a dictatorship isn't a weak argument for the mages who wanted to be free in Ferelden, particularly when we see exactly what the Chantry controlled Circles can result in with the horrors of the Gallows.

Deztyn wrote...

Nearly every instance of outright abuse is linked to two Templars: Alrik and Karras. There's nothing to suggest that it's allowed or endorsed by the Chantry or the Templar Order, it's a few sadists using their power to hurt others.

Alrik wasn't alone in his threats to Ella, and Alain is raped because he eludes to it even if Kerras is killed in Act III. There's also the issue of the mages who get lashed merely for speaking to civilians.

Deztyn wrote...

Idunna, a blood mage who was responsible for putting demons in templars as part of a plot to corrupt the entire order isn't killed or made tranquil. Just put in solitary confinement. Idunna. The Tranquil Solution was one deranged man who dies in Act II. The templars on the whole were not responsible.

No one is saying all the templars are bad or evil, but the Chantry controlled Circles have lead to a revolt across the continent. The Chantry controlled Circles have failed.

Deztyn wrote...

It says that Circle life isn't ideal. It says that reforms are needed. That doesn't translate to continent wide rebellion and a dissolution of the Circles entirely.

Reforms? There's already a rebellion across the continent, and the Chantry has lost the Circles.

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Fear is inevitable? We have the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, the kingdom of Rivain, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven to attest that other cultures don't share the Andrastian view on magic or mages.
...

The Chantry's teachings apparently are required to provoke the kind of responses that have Andrastians trying to murder mages simply for being mages (as Wynne describes) when we know alternative cultures don't hate mages simply for having magical ability.

Who's talking about hating mages for having magical ability?

I was talking about some mages fearing themselves.

A fear that is justified by the very real threat of demons taking over their minds.

That must explain why he devotes his life to protecting refugees from the darkspawn as Master Levyn.

No, But it does explain his fearing becoming a tranquil and turning to blood magic because he's not a good enough mage.

We can ask the child mage Ella how privleged she felt when Ser Alrik threatened to make her tranquil and rape her.

Well, I'm sure Ella wasn't feeling very privileged when the abomination that came to rescue her from the Templar that threatened her illegally and without the sanction of the Order or the Chantry instead killed her for using the D-word.

But while she was among the living, having an education, a well-maintained and clean environment, with meals, clothing and all other basic necessities freely provided are things that many of the 'free' people of Thedas could only dream of having. I suspect there are many unfortunates who would gladly go into the Circles for a chance at that.

Weak?

She was weak. Yes.

Alrik wasn't alone in his threats to Ella, and Alain is raped because he eludes to it even if Kerras is killed in Act III. There's also the issue of the mages who get lashed merely for speaking to civilians.

"Nearly."

And I also don't count nameless templar lackeys who exist for Hawke to kill. I'm sure you don't count the legions of nameless mage mobs in your arguments either. At least you shouldn't, since there's over 9,000 nameless evil mages over the course of the game.

And again, Thedas on the whole is a pretty brutal place. The templar order is not unique in that and given the setting in some ways they're more lenient than they could be. (See: Anders many, many escape attempts. And of course, Idunna. )

No one is saying all the templars are bad or evil, but the Chantry controlled Circles have lead to a revolt across the continent.

... no offense, but you seem to say or at least strongly imply things like that quite a lot. Like here:

Remind me how privleged a mage should feel to live in an enviornment where their humanity can be stripped from them

That definitely leads one to believe you feel the majority of templars are bad or evil people working for a bad or evil organization.

The Chantry controlled Circles have failed.

After a thousand years.

I'd say that makes them overall quite the success. It's a pity that they couldn't have had a few needed reforms and stood for another thousand.

Reforms? There's already a rebellion across the continent, and the Chantry has lost the Circles.

Yes.

I was referring to the part I quoted, about Wynne and Irving's reaction to the mage boon and what it meant at the time. I suppose for clarity I should have said "reforms were needed."

[TEWR]

deztyn, just because Chantry controlled Circles didn't crumble in the past millenia does NOT mean they were successful.

it just means they were really good at dragging things out.