4350 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn.

Whatever their longetivity in the past, it's an unquestionable fact that the circle system has failed NOW and there will be no going back to it no matter what happens. Indeed I have YET to see any substantiated evidence that the circle actually makes the outside world safer from abominations which is supposedly the purpose of the circles (if you believe the chantry). I hear a lot of claims about the circle being necessary, but strangly when the subject of numbers comes up, I hear equivocation or silence. Given that other cultures can and DO survive perfectly well without them, I tend to conclude that the chantry wants circles for reasons other than what they want the public to believe (i.e. so the chantry can control all magic).

-Polaris

[Deztyn]

You can hate them. You can think that everything about them is evil and wrong. You can think they all deserve one of Anders lightshows. But they fulfilled their purpose for a thousand years. That's impressive. That's an overall success by just about any definition of the word.

Edited because the forum somehow ate my post

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 07:13 .

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

You can hate them. You can think that everything about them is evil and wrong. You can think they all deserve one of Anders lightshows. But they fulfilled their purpose for a thousand years. That's impressive. That's an overall success by just about any definition of the word.

Edited because the forum somehow ate my post

Did they?  Were there actually less abominations because of the circle than without it?  I have strong reason to doubt this and we are never given any substanative reason think it's actually so.

-Polaris

[Deztyn]

Yes, it's suspicious that we don't hear about the abomination rate outside of Andrastian Thedas...

...when we never leave Andrastian Thedas.

Wait.

What?

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 07:19 .

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

Yes, it's suspicious that we don't hear about the abomination rate outside of Andrastian Thedas...

...when we never leave Andrastian Thedas.

Wait.

What?

Oh please.  The Templars and even the Chantry predate the existance of the circles at least in their present form.  In addition, the Rivvian have never been Andrastian, Tevinter existed for thousands of years before the Chantry and recrods still exist of them, there was the Kdm of the Dales that exsited for centuries before it was destroyed by an Exalted March of very questionable legality, the Chasind and Avvars have been around long before the Chantry, and the Dragon Cultists we see are centuries old themselves.

The DATA IS THERE.  If abominations really were as common and dangerous as the Chantry would like us to think, then you'd see EVIDENCE for it in places where the Chantry/Circle system does not hold sway.

You don't.  The conclusion is clear:  The circle system exists for some other reason than what the Chantry wants you to think.  The obvious reason is power.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

The data is there? What data?

The writers only write things that are needed for the game. They haven't yet explained how other societies (other than Tevinter and the Qunari) deal with mages. For the Dalish they added information in DA2 with the codex stating that mages are very rare among them. So rare, they give away children who are born with the Gift. Marethari will tell you that the Clan is forced to kill their own Keeper if they should turn abomination.

That's exactly what some of us expected when you once praised the Dalish for being exemplary in their treatment of mages. A closely knit community where mages are extremely rare, so that the one mage among them can be closely watched for corruption.

I believe, Gaider even once called you out on your habit of making assumptions based on the fact that no conclusive data/evidence has been given yet.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 mai 2011 - 08:01 .

[Deztyn]

The data isn't there because there's no reason for the writers to put it there. Why would we see their cultures in any detail when we never go there and interact with people from there? We have what? One codex entry about Rivain? Why should it go into that much detail about one part of one part of their society and history? We know about as much about the Avvars and the Chasind. Not nearly enough to come to any conclusions about how well the mages function in their societies.

The Dragon Cultists are cultists, with all the strictly adhered to religious dogma that implies. Dealing with demons? Heresy! They're also a small closely knit group with plenty of well trained soldiers.

We don't know how many abominations Tevinter has pop up every year, (although Fenris does mention them.) We don't know how Tevinter dealt with abominations when they did crop up. It could be better than anything the Chantry Circles could ever come up with, it could be "sacrifice a hundred elven children and their pet kittens to spare one magister."

We meet three Dalish clans in the game, those clans produced Zathrian, Velenna, Marethari and Merrill. The modern Dalish aren't exactly batting a thousand when it comes to benevolent mages who make rational choices for the betterment of society.

And as for your conclusion, point to the a post where I say their thousand year purpose was containing abominations.

Go on.

I'll wait.

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 08:22 .

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

The data is there? What data?

The writers only write things that are needed for the game. They haven't yet explained how other societies (other than Tevinter and the Qunari) deal with mages. For the Dalish they added information in DA2 with the codex stating that mages are very rare among them. So rare, they give away children who are born with the Gift. Marethari will tell you that the Clan is forced to kill their own Keeper if they should turn abomination.

Templars have been dealing with magic BEFORE the current circle system. So at minimum old Templar archives would have the data I am talking about.

That's exactly what some of us expected when you once praised the Dalish for being exemplary in their treatment of mages. A closely knit community where mages are extremely rare, so that the one mage among them can be closely watched for corruption.

Wrong!  That's not what the new information is telling us.  Dalish mages are NOT extremely rare by human standards.  They are much rarer than they used to be by Dalish standards but that's because EVERY Elf used to be a mage according to Dalish Lore.  It is now to the point where a clan can't count on a mage being born in it every generation.  That in no way makes mages "extremely rare".  Magic is treated as a valuable resource by the Dalish and the treatment of young mages is consistant with that (apprenticed to keepers at a fairly young age).

I believe, Gaider even once called you out on your habit of making assumptions based on the fact that no conclusive data/evidence has been given yet.

DG has said a lot of things much of which are rubbish frankly.  I given that he once said that mages weren't innocent because of mages, his opinion means very little to me except when speaking in WoG mode which he has NEVER done when it comes to the rate of abominaitons without circles vs with it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn,

The stated purpose by the Chantry for the circles is the protection of societh from mages that become corrupt (either malifar or abominations). It's abominations that templars usually point to with justification.

Unfortuantely when you want want to quantify what that protection means, no one wants to talk about it.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I thought the same exact thing, sort of.

Also, you're welcome for the FFXII reference

*grumble*  I wonder if the emulators still suck...  =/

Anyway, I keep looking for that entry that states mages are "cursed" as quite a few Andrastians claim is said by Andraste.  The closest I can find is the part that says the Maker cursed the magisters who defiled the Golden City, making them the first darkspawn.  I suppose this could be attributed to us not having a full copy of the Chantry's teachings in the codex.  After all, it's a bit much to write an entire bible on a fictional religion.  Still I think it's probable that the Chantry is just twisting "those specific magisters were cursed" into "mages are cursed."

Deztyn wrote...

Fear is inevitable. Mages are prey for demons. Being weak minded allows them to be possessed and turn into engines of destruction capable of wiping out entire villages in a very short amount of time. This is a fact. How often does it happen? I don't know. But it does happen. It happened to Connor. It happened to Amelia. It happened to Olivia. It can happen to Feynriel.

As long as becoming an abomination remains a real possibility, Chantry teachings aren't required for many to consider being a mage a curse. It's naive to think otherwise. And irresponsible to train mages without teaching them the consequences of failure.

People will always be fearful idiots.  It doesn't mean society as a whole should give paranoid idiots what they want at the expense of innocent people.  Look how many people gave Bioware grief about the "gay agenda" because the romance options are all bisexual (or aseuxal in the case of the coward).  Gay agenda?  "I'm sorry, but that's incredibly stupid." - Sarda, 8-bit theater.  Yes, there will still be people fearful of anything different than them.  But... well, to be blunt... so what?

Also, every one of the mages you named there never got proper training because their parents didn't want to lose them to the Circle.  The Chantry's heavy-handed rules make things worse, not better.

When has anyone, even the most pro-templar players around, denied that being a circle mage kinda sucks? Of course it could be better. Thedas on a whole could be much better. It's just a question of how bad it really is, especially when compared to the lot of the average citizen of Thedas. A people who on a whole are uneducated, live in what we would consider poverty and have very, very few of the rights we take for granted. Mages are disadvantaged in many ways, but they're also quite privileged in others.

You're kidding, right?  They torture mages for talking to outsiders, tranquil for little to no reason, rape, lock people in small rooms with no light indefinitely, the list of crimes just goes on and on even before you factor in that they're denied the most basic human rights of marriage and family that even peasants in the most oppressed places have.  I refuse to even entertain the idea that that level of abuse isn't so bad because other people's lives suck too.

Even if we got rid of the Chantry controlled Circles, any system that has even the slightest chance of working to control magic and limit the chances of abominations popping up would require mages to have some kind of close supervision, if not by the templars than by some other group.

Agreed.

Nearly every instance of outright abuse is linked to two Templars: Alrik and Karras. There's nothing to suggest that it's allowed or endorsed by the Chantry or the Templar Order, it's a few sadists using their power to hurt others. This is not unique to templars or the Circles. If Karras was a guard or a mercenary or a bartender, he'd probably still be a sadistic bastard. The only thing that would change is the identity of his victims.

Osama bin Meredith is innocent?  Jesus.  Remember when you were telling me to try the pro-templar playthrough once?  I eventually managed to get ahold of enough elephant-dose antiemetics to go through the templar ending once.  Meredith says she's "eager to begin" when she asks if you're ready to charge on the Gallows.  She's about to commit genocide against a group that even she admits contains many good and innocent people, and she's as giddy as a virgin on prom night.  There is only one word for that.  EVIL.

And I don't accept the lyrium idol completely letting her off the hook.  I'm sure it made her crazier than usual but she was still close enough to her normal psychotic self that only a rebel faction of the templars thought she had gone mad.

I also don't accept that Alrik and Karras were isolated cases.  Both of them had practically a platoon of templars with them when they openly spoke of their crimes.  I also doubt Alrik managed to make all those mages tranquil without his superiors noticing.  Another random conversation bit from a roaming mage in the Gallows is a woman that, horrified, says "I heard Ser Alrik place the order for me to be made Tranquil.  I passed my Harrowing!  He can't do that!"  If he was placing an order, he was going through official channels.

The Tranquil Solution was one deranged man who dies in Act II. The templars on the whole were not responsible.

The supposed model of a good templar, Cullen, clearly defends the Tranquil Solution if you ask him about it.  So, yeah...

It says that Circle life isn't ideal. It says that reforms are needed. That doesn't translate to continent wide rebellion and a dissolution of the Circles entirely.

The reform that's needed is a shiv in Divine Justinia V's kidney.  The Chantry has abused its power for too long.  It needs to pay.  It should not be let off the hook with a peaceful reform.  The last time a tyranical empire in Thedas was given the chance to reform on its own terms was the Tevinter Imperium.  Look how that turned out.

[Xilizhra]

That definitely leads one to believe you feel the majority of templars are bad or evil people working for a bad or evil organization.

The former is questionable. The latter is extremely true.

[Xilizhra]

And I don't accept the lyrium idol completely letting her off the hook. I'm sure it made her crazier than usual but she was still close enough to her normal psychotic self that only a rebel faction of the templars thought she had gone mad.

Especially since the idol could only create madness in Bartrand, hence his cutting up his servants and force-feeding his guards lyrium. In Meredith, it only amplified her preexisting paranoia.

[TEWR]

Anyway, I keep looking for that entry that states mages are "cursed" as quite a few Andrastians claim is said by Andraste. The closest I can find is the part that says the Maker cursed the magisters who defiled the Golden City, making them the first darkspawn. I suppose this could be attributed to us not having a full copy of the Chantry's teachings in the codex. After all, it's a bit much to write an entire bible on a fictional religion. Still I think it's probable that the Chantry is just twisting "those specific magisters were cursed" into "mages are cursed."

I think they're twisting the words too. They claim to know what Andraste really meant when she's the only one who knew. They use their idea of the meaning to instill a fear in not only Thedosian citizens, but the mages as well. Kelli is testament enough that some of them wholeheartedly believe that what they have is solely a curse.

And there's not even any real evidence to suggest the Tevinter Imperium were the ones who caused the emergence of the Darkspawn. all we have to go on is a bunch of fluff and poetry that sounds beautiful, but shouldn't be taken seriously.

The Chantry is an organization built on lies, murder, fraud, greed, and many other things. All the more reason that I'm glad Anders did what he did.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Chantry is an organization built on lies, murder, fraud, greed, and many other things. All the more reason that I'm glad Anders did what he did.

+1

So sick of seeing the Chantry painted as some innocent organization.

On a slightly related note, a thought just occured to me.  The Andraste-Dumat OGB thing we were talking about before.  You were talking about whether Andraste meant for mages to be treated like this.  I just remembered, legend has it that Dumat was the one who originally taught blood magic to the first Tevinter Archon.  This is the first record of blood magic, and it's reasonably likely that Dumat pretty much invented blood magic.  Not that fat fetched as he was not just a god but the most powerful of his pantheon.  So the same being who unleashed blood magic on the world, after being reincarnated, created an organization that oppresses mages to the point of genocide.  If all this is true, might it all be part of some greater scheme?

[EmperorSahlertz]

No worries. Now that the mages are free, we will soon see just how effective they are, at keeping the abominations back on their own.

[Xilizhra]

Well, they're winning the war, we know that.

I just remembered, legend has it that Dumat was the one who originally taught blood magic to the first Tevinter Archon. This is the first record of blood magic, and it's reasonably likely that Dumat pretty much invented blood magic.

Isn't that Chantry legend?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the First Enchanter thinks that the Rite is a punishment befit the crime. Yes, the Rite can be used as punishment for any crime. It requires the signature of both the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander apparently though. So it is only (legally) used in consensus. Like Jowan.
What happens in Kirkwall, is circumventing both Meredith and Orsino.

So basically, any crime warrants the RoT in your opinion? Brilliant!!

So if I'm a mage and I call you a cottonheaded ninnymuggins, I should be made Tranquil? I mean, it is slander how I'm calling you a cottonheaded ninnymuggins. Oh and I'm causing you emotional distress.

Ok, where's that lyrium stamp? I just committed a crime. better make myself tranquil

I am not the one who created the system. Yet it is me you go all out on, in some sissy fit. Great.

Now let me put it simply. The First Enchanter could, be considered the "Arl" of the Circle. He is the final authority in the case of punishments towards the mages. And just like any other Arl, he can place any punishment he wishes on the mages, despite the severity of the crime. This of course works both ways. However, at the risk of the RoA, a First Enchanter would enver let a severe crime pass unpunished.
Now what happened in Kirkwall, wasn't a legal use of the Rite becasue it circumvented both Meredith and Orsino. It passed outside the ones who should have final say on the matter, which made the use of the Rite illegal. However, the Rite COULD have been used legally. If Karl's case had been put before Meredith and Orsino, and that they decided on using the Rite on him, it would have been fully legal, if somewhat harsh.
Do you understand now?

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, they're winning the war, we know that.

I just remembered, legend has it that Dumat was the one who originally taught blood magic to the first Tevinter Archon. This is the first record of blood magic, and it's reasonably likely that Dumat pretty much invented blood magic.

Isn't that Chantry legend?

Don't know, hard to say.  Any records from that era are going to be sketchy at best.  Either way we don't have a chance to find out what Tevinter believes about it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, they're winning the war, we know that.

I just remembered, legend has it that Dumat was the one who originally taught blood magic to the first Tevinter Archon. This is the first record of blood magic, and it's reasonably likely that Dumat pretty much invented blood magic.

Isn't that Chantry legend?

We don't know anything about how the war is going. At all actually. All we know is taht the mages rose up, and that the Templars left the Chantry to be allowed free reigns in hunting the mages. That's the extend of our knowledge.

It also appears in DA2 that Blood Magic was originally tought by the four bound demons.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 mai 2011 - 01:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, the Old Gods seem to be powerful beings of earthly magic, as opposed to the Fade's spirits... and blood magic is also earthly, independent from the Fade. So I suppose it makes sense.

[Xilizhra]

We don't know anything about how the war is going. At all actually. All we know is taht the mages rose up, and that the Templars left the Chantry to be allowed free reigns in hunting the mages. That's the extend of our knowledge.

That says a lot. For starters, the mages weren't instantly crushed, which means that public opinion can't be totally against them. For another, the Chantry didn't seem to want to commit itself fully to the war, for whatever reason, and that the templars were fanatical enough to leave their civilian support network to go for total war against mages. That split may be a major factor in the Chantry falling apart, and since the enemy seems so disorganized, I'd say that the mages get points.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the Old Gods seem to be powerful beings of earthly magic, as opposed to the Fade's spirits... and blood magic is also earthly, independent from the Fade. So I suppose it makes sense.

Blood magic is not independant of the Fade. It is taught by demons. It has clear connections to the fade. It is however seperate from lyrium, which binds all other forms of magic.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 mai 2011 - 01:25 .

[Xilizhra]

It's taught by demons, but stated to be independent from the Fade. Demons teach it because for some reason it's really good at tearing open the Fade and summoning them... maybe as a consequence of it being alien to it?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

We don't know anything about how the war is going. At all actually. All we know is taht the mages rose up, and that the Templars left the Chantry to be allowed free reigns in hunting the mages. That's the extend of our knowledge.

That says a lot. For starters, the mages weren't instantly crushed, which means that public opinion can't be totally against them. For another, the Chantry didn't seem to want to commit itself fully to the war, for whatever reason, and that the templars were fanatical enough to leave their civilian support network to go for total war against mages. That split may be a major factor in the Chantry falling apart, and since the enemy seems so disorganized, I'd say that the mages get points.

You get an aweful lot out of a few sentences. Maybe the mages were also far more powerful than orignally expected, which allowed them to survive the initial battles. Maybe the mages have zero civillian support, but are forcing peasants to work for them. There are millions of different scenarios which are all equally likely, given the small amount information we got.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the Old Gods seem to be powerful beings of earthly magic, as opposed to the Fade's spirits... and blood magic is also earthly, independent from the Fade. So I suppose it makes sense.

I don't know about that.  The old gods I mean.  We know very little about them.  There has to be more to their power than what we saw of the archdemon at the end of DAO.  That thing was basically nothing more than a high dragon that uses a different element than fire.  Its biggest advantage wasn't divine power, it was the massive horde of mindless savages at its beck and call.