4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Lewie]

The injusticies of a few has been blown way out of proportion. That is not a reason for a whole circle, or a whole templar order in a city to rise up and annihilate their opposite. Mages are afraid of templars, templars are afraid of being possessed. The fear on both sides is understandable so a few crazy people start a full blown war, which in turn means many many more people will die because of a few despots. I can never see what Anders did as being 'reasonable' and i don't support religion of any kind, it was still too far.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the Old Gods seem to be powerful beings of earthly magic, as opposed to the Fade's spirits... and blood magic is also earthly, independent from the Fade. So I suppose it makes sense.

I don't know about that.  The old gods I mean.  We know very little about them.  There has to be more to their power than what we saw of the archdemon at the end of DAO.  That thing was basically nothing more than a high dragon that uses a different element than fire.  Its biggest advantage wasn't divine power, it was the massive horde of mindless savages at its beck and call.

It's basically a ghoul, and I wouldn't expect a heavily ghouled mage to be able to use all of her/his powers, if any.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...

You can hate them. You can think that everything about them is evil and wrong. You can think they all deserve one of Anders lightshows. But they fulfilled their purpose for a thousand years. That's impressive. That's an overall success by just about any definition of the word.

Edited because the forum somehow ate my post

I am not sure I would qualify an annulment every generation to be that huge of a success. But its longevity is impressive (that of Teviner is more impressive).

Now however it failed and trying to put a failing political dinosaur in life support systems is futile. Time for something else.

[Rifneno]

louise101 wrote...

The injusticies of a few has been blown way out of proportion. That is not a reason for a whole circle, or a whole templar order in a city to rise up and annihilate their opposite. Mages are afraid of templars, templars are afraid of being possessed. The fear on both sides is understandable so a few crazy people start a full blown war, which in turn means many many more people will die because of a few despots. I can never see what Anders did as being 'reasonable' and i don't support religion of any kind, it was still too far.

If it were as scarce as you believe, then they wouldn't have had a rebellion from every single Circle upon being shown "that the mighty templars could be defied."  As soon as they were told they stood a chance to fend off an Annulment, every last Circle   That doesn't happen if living conditions are reasonable.

Xilizhra wrote...
It's basically a ghoul, and I wouldn't expect a heavily ghouled mage to be able to use all of her/his powers, if any.

Indeed.  But it's pretty much all we have to go on for judging the powers of the old gods, sadly.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the Old Gods seem to be powerful beings of earthly magic, as opposed to the Fade's spirits... and blood magic is also earthly, independent from the Fade. So I suppose it makes sense.

Blood magic is not independant of the Fade. It is taught by demons. It has clear connections to the fade. It is however seperate from lyrium, which binds all other forms of magic.

It can be taught by demons and there is some evidence that it originated by demons, but you can be completely demon-free and learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the Old Gods seem to be powerful beings of earthly magic, as opposed to the Fade's spirits... and blood magic is also earthly, independent from the Fade. So I suppose it makes sense.

Blood magic is not independant of the Fade. It is taught by demons. It has clear connections to the fade. It is however seperate from lyrium, which binds all other forms of magic.

It can be taught by demons and there is some evidence that it originated by demons, but you can be completely demon-free and learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

Other than gameplay mechanics we have yet to see any blood magic be taught. The original way to unlock it was through a demon, in DA:A it was through a book merely for convenience's sake. So far, we got the lore stating Blood Magic is taught by demons, and nothing to disprove it.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than gameplay mechanics we have yet to see any blood magic be taught. The original way to unlock it was through a demon, in DA:A it was through a book merely for convenience's sake. So far, we got the lore stating
Blood Magic is taught by demons, and nothing to disprove it.

Jowan learned bloodmagic from books.  Your Warden in DAA could also learn it from books.  The Bannastar scrolls make it very clear that bloodmagic could be taught without using a demon.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[KnightofPhoenix]

Avernus does say that blood magic *originates* from demons, yes (and apparently the old Gods for Tevinter, but that's not clear as of yet). That doesn't mean it cannot be taught via other methods.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 mai 2011 - 02:14 .

[White_Jedi]

I was playing as a female mage hawk when Anders had his "psychotic break", and even though at that point I wannted to side with the templars, I continued to side with the mages, mainly because as I saw it the circle of Kirkwall had no more responsibility for Ander's rogue action than I did, why should they be punished for the actions of anyone outside of their ranks? How could they have known what Anders would do? After that action by Anders and my decision I felt compelled to show Anders the quickest path to the makers side, I go to the gallows and once again try to convince the sides to find another solution, to no avail and am asked a second time to chose who I side with. After siding with the mages again I end up going off with Orsinio and, after a short battle in which it appears all the mages of the circle but Orsinio are cream puff's, he uses Blood magic and then attacks me (what was the logic there?) and I have to kill him. Then I have to fight my way back to the gallows courtyard through templars/mages/demons where I am again confronter by Merideth who finally reveals her aquisition of the lyrium idol and I fight her. In the end I feel strange/angry that in preserving my life and attempting to help the mages of Kirkwall's circle *survive* , I seem to have granted Ander's deathwish, the mages of the circles are free. Wished I could have killed him twice or sent him to Aoen or something. Mostly at the end I just feel like I didn't so much "Rise to power" as I survived and tried to help others survive the chaos in Kirkwall, not intending to start a war between the mages and the templars. It will be interesting to see how DA2's conclusion plays out in an expansion or in DA3. Just not sure where all of this is going/what the point of all of this was.

[IanPolaris]

White_Jedi wrote...

 Just not sure where all of this is going/what the point of all of this was.

Not to worry.  Nobody else knows either.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Deztyn wrote...

Fear is inevitable. Mages are prey for demons. Being weak minded allows them to be possessed and turn into engines of destruction capable of wiping out entire villages in a very short amount of time. This is a fact. How often does it happen? I don't know. But it does happen. It happened to Connor. It happened to Amelia. It happened to Olivia. It can happen to Feynriel.

It doesn't follow that locking mages into Circles is the only solution.  And it sure as hell doesn't follow that various rules such as taking them away and permanently denying them access to family, or requiring that they receive special permission to marry, or taking away any children born to them, are necessary.  Even staying completely away from the egregious cases of abuse in Kirkwall, the typical Chantry laws against mages are inherently unjust and don't really have much to do with protecting the masses.  Not in reality, whatever the doctrine says.

Deztyn wrote...
As long as becoming an abomination remains a real possibility, Chantry teachings aren't required for many to consider being a mage a curse. It's naive to think otherwise. And irresponsible to train mages without teaching them the consequences of failure.

And I have never once either explicitly stated or even implied that mages should not receive training.  I've said many times throughout this thread that mages of course need training, and also need some kind of independent guard force on hand to deal with those that go insane or criminal.  Please don't follow the trend of assuming that people who think the Chantry-controlled Circles in their present incarnation are unjust are also thereby advocating for mages to not be required to undergo training or be completely devoid of any oversight.  Not one person in this thread, as far as I can remember, has made any such claim.  The only people who've actually suggested it are those who keep putting words in our mouths by suggesting that we do.

Deztyn wrote...
When has anyone, even the most pro-templar players around, denied that being a circle mage kinda sucks? Of course it could be better. Thedas on a whole could be much better. It's just a question of how bad it really is, especially when compared to the lot of the average citizen of Thedas. A people who on a whole are uneducated, live in what we would consider poverty and have very, very few of the rights we take for granted. Mages are disadvantaged in many ways, but they're also quite privileged in others.

I don't think anyone has denied it.  But there's been plenty of people insisting that suck or no, it's necessary.  Which is what the people in my camp refuse to accept.  And I really am not impressed with the "other people have it bad too" argument.  Firstly, we have seen not one shred of evidence that any other class of people in Thedas is subjected to similar treatment as mages, and given divine sanction to boot.  Even within the game, people, anti-mage, neutral, and pro-mage alike, comment on the general lot of mages.  It is a unique station unto that specific group.  Secondly, this is not a discussion on fixing all the inequities of Thedas, it is a discussion on the unique nature of the inequities faced by mages.  Trying to make this into a comparative discussion over who has it worse--de facto playing the oppression olympics--is a derailing technique.  It's always infuriating to see people play the "but other people have it bad too" card in a discussion of real-world injustices.  Seeing someone actually bring it up in a discussion of fictitious ones is amusing, in a cringeworthy sort of way.

Deztyn wrote...
"You were given to the Circle. I was given to the Chantry. Hawke was driven away from home by the Darkspawn. None of us are free."

Yeah, that bit of party banter is one of many reasons I dislike Sebastian.  I don't respect that logic in real life, I'm certainly not going to give it any credence in a fictional setting.  The situations that Sebastian tries to compare are not comparable.  He was given to the Chantry as a child, but as an adult, he is free to leave.  It's also rather likely that had he chosen to run away as a child, he would not have been hounded by templars hunting him down like a rabid animal.  Hawke being driven away by her home was a more or less once-in-a-lifetime event akin to a natural disaster that happens every few hundred years.  It's not the kind of situational the average Thedosian has looming over their head on a daily, ongoing basis.  Furthermore, Hawke had a choice of where to go.  They had reasons for choosing Kirkwall, but all of Ferelden was available to them.  And after a year in Kirkwall, Hawke had the option of setting out elsewhere.  Moreso after earning her fortune in the Deep Roads.  In contrast, a mage never has the option to leave the Circle, excepting unusual circumstances such as the Mage Warden being conscripted by Duncan because a Blight was on.  Other people in Thedas are limited by everyday circumstances, many of which can be overcome.  Mages, on the other hand, are legally restricted in ways far beyond the average citizen.  Trying to draw false equivalencies between mages and non-mages won't cut it.

Deztyn wrote...
Nearly every instance of outright abuse is linked to two Templars: Alrik and Karras. There's nothing to suggest that it's allowed or endorsed by the Chantry or the Templar Order, it's a few sadists using their power to hurt others. This is not unique to templars or the Circles. If Karras was a guard or a mercenary or a bartender, he'd probably still be a sadistic bastard. The only thing that would change is the identity of his victims.

Ser Alrik wasn't alone in the Dissent quest. He had quite a few other templars with him.  Do not play the "just following orders" card, because any templar who saw his actions as wrong could have either gone to Meredith, or to Elthina.  And I'm not so certain that we see hard evidence in the game that the abuses can be linked solely to Alrik and Karras.  Certainly it doesn't change the fact that we do see evidence in game that the mages as a whole are dreadfully unhappy, and I doubt that that environment would be caused by two templars working entirely alone.  The mages quite clearly didn't feel they had any means of challenging the abuses against them, which speaks to system-wide abuse, not two lone sadists.  Finally, I think we see rather a lot of evidence in game suggesting that Elthina was willing to turn a blind eye to the abuses.  Endorsement does not have to be explicitly stated.  Another point is that if Karras was a guard or a bartender, it stands to reason that anyone abused by him would have means to fight back, one way or another, either by reacting in self-defense, or by seeking legal redress.  Mages are not shown to have that right. 

Deztyn...
Idunna, a blood mage who was responsible for putting demons in templars as part of a plot to corrupt the entire order isn't killed or made tranquil. Just put in solitary confinement. Idunna. The Tranquil Solution was one deranged man who dies in Act II. The templars on the whole were not responsible.

"Just" put in solitary confinement?  Getting away from Idunna's actions themselves, solitary confinement is no small thing. It would have been more humane to execute her.  Given her crime of blood magic and that execution is the usual punishment as far as understand it, it almost seems as if the templars deliberately chose a crueler punishment.  As if they figured, what the hell, the kind of law she broke means that she exempted herself from any rules of decency.  Anders was also put in solitary, for a year, after his sixth escape attempt.  And, again, Ser Alrik had followers.

Deztyn...
A tranquil will be whipped if his merchandise disappears? We're talking about a society that executes people for stealing. This is mild by comparison, and not something that is unique to Templars.

Irrelevant.  The discussion is specifically about the situation faced by mages.  I'm not interested in trying to diminish the crimes committed against them by pointing to other people and saying "bad **** happens to them too!"

Deztyn...
It says that Circle life isn't ideal. It says that reforms are needed. That doesn't translate to continent wide rebellion and a dissolution of the Circles entirely.

Except that the Chantry has shown that it is not interested in reform.  "Andraste waged war on the Imperium.  She didn't write a strongly worded letter."

The fact is that under existing Chantry law, mages have no recourse.  They can complain about their lot, but the Chantry has all the power, and they have none.  If they demand reform, and the Chantry says "We like things the way they are.  Go away," then what is left for the mages to do?

Edited: Fixed some botched quotes, and add a couple points for clarity.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 04:12 .

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

White_Jedi wrote...

 Just not sure where all of this is going/what the point of all of this was.

Not to worry.  Nobody else knows either.

-Polaris

Truth.

We should make a list of all the horrible things bone by both sides for comparison.  Then, just for giggles, a list of people Hawke says (s)he'll protect who wind up dead.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

 Then, just for giggles, a list of people Hawke says (s)he'll protect who wind up dead.

Interesting.  I'll start:

There's Carver/Bethany, Leandra, Nyssa (Huon's wife)....those are the first three that come to me off the top of my head.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

 Then, just for giggles, a list of people Hawke says (s)he'll protect who wind up dead.

Interesting.  I'll start:

There's Carver/Bethany, Leandra, Nyssa (Huon's wife)....those are the first three that come to me off the top of my head.

-Polaris

All the miners in the Bone Pit, too.

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...
So sick of seeing the Chantry painted as some innocent organization.

On a slightly related note, a thought just occured to me.  The Andraste-Dumat OGB thing we were talking about before.  You were talking about whether Andraste meant for mages to be treated like this.  I just remembered, legend has it that Dumat was the one who originally taught blood magic to the first Tevinter Archon.  This is the first record of blood magic, and it's reasonably likely that Dumat pretty much invented blood magic.  Not that fat fetched as he was not just a god but the most powerful of his pantheon.  So the same being who unleashed blood magic on the world, after being reincarnated, created an organization that oppresses mages to the point of genocide.  If all this is true, might it all be part of some greater scheme?

Also bloody sick of seeing the Chantry painted as innocent.  According to what standards?!

Also, even if you go with the Andraste-Dumat OGB theory, she didn't create the organization.  It was done in her name, by Emperor Drakon I.  Unless you're suggesting that she masterminded her own death and orchestrated everything behind the scenes, not unlike a certain Witch of the Wilds.  I gotta say, this is probably the most coherent theory on Andraste I've yet read.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 03:43 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Now what happened in Kirkwall, wasn't a legal use of the Rite becasue it circumvented both Meredith and Orsino. It passed outside the ones who should have final say on the matter, which made the use of the Rite illegal. However, the Rite COULD have been used legally. If Karl's case had been put before Meredith and Orsino, and that they decided on using the Rite on him, it would have been fully legal, if somewhat harsh.
Do you understand now?

This is my third post asking you for your source in insisting that it was/could have been legal to use the Rite on Karl.  Do you have a codex in mind that indicates what crimes warrant the Rite being used on a Harrowed mage?

It seems that the thing about it being illegal to perform the Rite on Harrowed mages is not something that comes solely from Anders.  So apparently any exceptions to that rule...what are they?  You keep insisting over and over again that it is legal to use the Rite as a punishment on Harrowed mages, but you've yet say why you're so convinced of this.

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

The injusticies of a few has been blown way out of proportion. That is not a reason for a whole circle, or a whole templar order in a city to rise up and annihilate their opposite. Mages are afraid of templars, templars are afraid of being possessed. The fear on both sides is understandable so a few crazy people start a full blown war, which in turn means many many more people will die because of a few despots. I can never see what Anders did as being 'reasonable' and i don't support religion of any kind, it was still too far.

There's a difference between "reasonable" and "necessary."

Anders in particular, and mages in general, have been denied the opportunity to seek change through reason.  What Anders did may be horrific, may be extreme...but what the hell is he, are mages, expected to do instead?  Just throw up their hands and go back to their chains, exclaiming, "Ah well, the Chantry doesn't want to listen to me, so I guess I'll just live with things from now on."

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Other than gameplay mechanics we have yet to see any blood magic be taught. The original way to unlock it was through a demon, in DA:A it was through a book merely for convenience's sake. So far, we got the lore stating Blood Magic is taught by demons, and nothing to disprove it.

Jowan learned blood magic through a book in the Ferelden Circle.  Was that just a gameplay mechanic?

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

White_Jedi wrote...

 Just not sure where all of this is going/what the point of all of this was.

Not to worry.  Nobody else knows either.

-Polaris

I've thought from the start that DA2 was intended as a prologue to a (hopefully) much larger game that would (again hopefully) be more on par with Origins.  I wasn't bothered by the lack of lore-changing choices or a single epilogue ending on those grounds, because I figure they were trying to set up a very specific setting for DA3.  But hot damn, the execution could have been better.  It wouldn't have felt like railroading with even a modicum of better writing...

[Wulfram]

Silfren wrote...

Anders in particular, and mages in general, have been denied the opportunity to seek change through reason.  What Anders did may be horrific, may be extreme...but what the hell is he, are mages, expected to do instead?  Just throw up their hands and go back to their chains, exclaiming, "Ah well, the Chantry doesn't want to listen to me, so I guess I'll just live with things from now on."

Seek alliances, make friends.  If you've potentially got a King of Ferelden who is highly sympathetic to the mage's cause and a mage having considerable support to be Viscount of Kirkwall, then prospects for peaceful reform aren't looking all that bad actually.  Sure, change isn't going to happen quickly and may not happen in your lifetime - but it's also not going to happen in your lifetime if you end up dead.

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

Also bloody sick of seeing the Chantry painted as innocent.  According to what standards?!

Also, even if you go with the Andraste-Dumat OGB theory, she didn't create the organization.  It was done in her name, by Emperor Drakon I.  Unless you're suggesting that she masterminded her own death and orchestrated everything behind the scenes, not unlike a certain Witch of the Wilds.  I gotta say, this is probably the most coherent theory on Andraste I've yet read.

I can only assume they're associating the Chantry with the relatively peaceful religious organizations English-speaking countries are full of.  They're actually much more comparible to, say, the taliban.  And I'm not talking about Tali fans.

Assuming she (he?  I'm not sure which one to go with here, male first life female second?) even is dead, yes.  Clearly killing an old god is no small feat.  Even the Maker imprisoned them rather than kill them, and when slain as an archdemon they just hop on over to the next body.  It's entirely possible Andraste just hopped on over to the next available body when she died.

Wulfram wrote...

Seek alliances, make friends.  If you've potentially got a King of Ferelden who is highly sympathetic to the mage's cause and a mage having considerable support to be Viscount of Kirkwall, then prospects for peaceful reform aren't looking all that bad actually.  Sure, change isn't going to happen quickly and may not happen in your lifetime - but it's also not going to happen in your lifetime if you end up dead.

That'd just earn an exalted march, no more.  They almost launched one on Orzammar over a single murder, they're sure not going to let what you're talking about weaken their hold on Thedas. 

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

I can only assume they're associating the Chantry with the relatively peaceful religious organizations English-speaking countries are full of.  They're actually much more comparible to, say, the taliban.  And I'm not talking about Tali fans.

Meh.  I've held back from stating it outright, but what the hell.  I think the Chantry parallels the Roman Catholic Church in excruciating detail.  No other religious body comes close to its record of justifying human rights abuses in the name of divine sanction.

Assuming she (he?  I'm not sure which one to go with here, male first life female second?) even is dead, yes.  Clearly killing an old god is no small feat.  Even the Maker imprisoned them rather than kill them, and when slain as an archdemon they just hop on over to the next body.  It's entirely possible Andraste just hopped on over to the next available body when she died.

Don't forget that the Maker imprisoning the Old Gods is Chantry doctrine, but not necessarily historical fact.  Also, this is mostly an aside, but I've always wondered how many times the original Grey Wardens had to kill Dumat before they finally figured out how to make it stick.  As for Andraste hopping on into the next body, well, don't forget the lore established in Origins that this wouldn't be the case if a Warden killed her/him/it/whateverOMG. Otherwise it's not as if she "just" hopped into the nearest body and went about life in secret, waiting or whatever--she would have continued rampaging as an archdemon.

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Seek alliances, make friends.  If you've potentially got a King of Ferelden who is highly sympathetic to the mage's cause and a mage having considerable support to be Viscount of Kirkwall, then prospects for peaceful reform aren't looking all that bad actually.  Sure, change isn't going to happen quickly and may not happen in your lifetime - but it's also not going to happen in your lifetime if you end up dead.

That'd just earn an exalted march, no more.  They almost launched one on Orzammar over a single murder, they're sure not going to let what you're talking about weaken their hold on Thedas. 

No kidding.  The Chantry's held sway as the dominant religio-political body in Thedas for a thousand years.  They're not going to loosen their hold of their own volition.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 05:05 .

[Beerfish]

Silfren wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The injusticies of a few has been blown way out of proportion. That is not a reason for a whole circle, or a whole templar order in a city to rise up and annihilate their opposite. Mages are afraid of templars, templars are afraid of being possessed. The fear on both sides is understandable so a few crazy people start a full blown war, which in turn means many many more people will die because of a few despots. I can never see what Anders did as being 'reasonable' and i don't support religion of any kind, it was still too far.

There's a difference between "reasonable" and "necessary."

Anders in particular, and mages in general, have been denied the opportunity to seek change through reason.  What Anders did may be horrific, may be extreme...but what the hell is he, are mages, expected to do instead?  Just throw up their hands and go back to their chains, exclaiming, "Ah well, the Chantry doesn't want to listen to me, so I guess I'll just live with things from now on."

For some bizarre and unknown reason there is this general thought that ALL mages hate the circle, hate templars and are mistreated when that is clearly not the case, the majority of the mages do not belong to the 'we must have freedom' faction.

That all mages feel that they can control their power and have no fear in being set free.

You will also have to tell me about the 'change through reason'  At one point in DA2, after Anders finds out he is totally wrong about the Alrick, make them all tranquil quest he says maybe he better go and talk to the grand cleric as there is still hope.  To my knowledge that is the last we hear of that, he just ends up blowing up the Chantry.

Re Chains:  Apostates from the Starkhaven chantry who ran away and were helped by Thrask and the hero are seen for a lot of the game sunning themsleves in the area outside the gallows.


My on going issue is in your last sentence "the Chantry doesn't want to listen to us".  What exactly do the mages want?  That is the big question and not some meaningless statement like "To be more free."  The plight of mages in Kirkwall is bad of that there is no question but people are making the same blanket assumptions about all circles and all of the chantry that they accuse the templars and chantry of making about mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Other than gameplay mechanics we have yet to see any blood magic be taught. The original way to unlock it was through a demon, in DA:A it was through a book merely for convenience's sake. So far, we got the lore stating Blood Magic is taught by demons, and nothing to disprove it.

Jowan learned blood magic through a book in the Ferelden Circle.  Was that just a gameplay mechanic?

Those books could just as well have taught him to contact demons, and he then afterwards made a deal with the demons he contacted. We don't ever read the books so we can't know.

About the Rite: There is a DG quote here on the forum which says that the First Enchanter needs to be present during the Harrowing and the Rite, as an ombudsman for the Mages, to make sure everything happens according to the law. So if the First Enchanter doesn't intervene during a RIte, it isn't illegal. And if he isn't present, then it isn't legal either. It is rather old by now though.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 mai 2011 - 05:12 .