4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

Meh.  I've held back from stating it outright, but what the hell.  I think the Chantry parallels the Roman Catholic Church in excruciating detail.  No other religious body comes close to its record of justifying human rights abuses in the name of divine sanction.

Well that's the obvious parallel.  They didn't even bother renaming the templars to something else, but exalted marches are clearly crusades.

Don't forget that the Maker imprisoning the Old Gods is Chantry doctrine, but not necessarily historical fact.  Also, this is mostly an aside, but I've always wondered how many times the original Grey Wardens had to kill Dumat before they finally figured out how to make it stick.  As for Andraste hopping on into the next body, well, don't forget the lore established in Origins that this wouldn't be the case if a Warden killed her/him/it/whateverOMG. Otherwise it's not as if she "just" hopped into the nearest body and went about life in secret, waiting or whatever--she would have continued rampaging as an archdemon.

True, but they got imprisoned somehow.  Another, more powerful deity seems the most likely scenario even if it isn't exactly what the Chantry thinks.  The Architect pretty much confirms that the old gods are indeed imprisoned in the Earth and they are indeed being tainted into archdemons.  Which brings up another question I've always wondered... how do they know archdemon X was old god Y?

We don't really know how the body jump thing works.  It's possible the only reason they can permakill an archdemon is because, tainted by the darkspawn, it's no longer a thinking creature and tries to jump to something a sane and thinking old god would know better than use.  Hmm.  Here's a spinoff theory.  Perhaps an animal is considered a "soulless vessel" as well and Andraste hopped on over to a dragon in an ironic twist of fate.  Flemeth.

No kidding.  The Chantry's held sway as the dominant religio-political body in Thedas for a thousand years.  They're not going to loosen their hold of their own volition.

Exactly.  Tyrants do not give up their power because one asks nicely with a convincing argument.

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

For some bizarre and unknown reason there is this general thought that ALL mages hate the circle, hate templars and are mistreated when that is clearly not the case, the majority of the mages do not belong to the 'we must have freedom' faction.

That all mages feel that they can control their power and have no fear in being set free.

I've never suggested that all mages, everywhere, despise the Circle.  But we see enough evidence in Origins, Awakening, and DA2 to indicate that most mages fall somewhere on the scale of hating it outright or wishing it could be better.  The most telling evidence of that is seeing mages like Wynne and Irving, who don't hate it and actually seem to appreciate it to a degree, nevertheless express a desire for things to be better, and even express happiness at the thought of the Circle being given autonomy.  And that's not even touching on mages who have been so thoroughly convinced of themselves as being cursed that they hate their own existence.  And, as Lob has pointed out time and again, the fact that all the Circles rise up and emancipate themselves is a pretty strong indicator that the majority wanted to be free. 

You will also have to tell me about the 'change through reason'  At one point in DA2, after Anders finds out he is totally wrong about the Alrick, make them all tranquil quest he says maybe he better go and talk to the grand cleric as there is still hope.  To my knowledge that is the last we hear of that, he just ends up blowing up the Chantry.

Anders does not find out he is "totally wrong" about Ser Alrik.  He heard of a plan to make all mages in the Free Marches tranquil, and his suspicion was confirmed.  It turned out to be the plan of only one man, that was rejected by the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander, but the fact remains that Alrik had advocated for the idea, so Anders was hardly wrong.  Also, Anders suggests that perhaps this incident proves he'd been wrong about the Grand Cleric, that perhaps "she's more reasonable than [he] thought," but unfortunately that turns out not to be the case.  Every time Hawke'n co attempt to talk to the Grand Cleric, they get hand-waving and "the Maker will provide" bull****.  It cannot be said that Anders didn't try to get the Grand Cleric to step in to do her damned job.

Re Chains:  Apostates from the Starkhaven chantry who ran away and were helped by Thrask and the hero are seen for a lot of the game sunning themsleves in the area outside the gallows.

Ever try actually clicking on them to hear what they have to say?

My on going issue is in your last sentence "the Chantry doesn't want to listen to us".  What exactly do the mages want?  That is the big question and not some meaningless statement like "To be more free."  The plight of mages in Kirkwall is bad of that there is no question but people are making the same blanket assumptions about all circles and all of the chantry that they accuse the templars and chantry of making about mages.

No, not making blanket assumptions that all the Circles are as bad as Kirkwall's. Never once did.  I'm saying they don't have to be.  The institution of imprisoning mages is unjust, period. 

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 05:36 .

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

Well that's the obvious parallel.  They didn't even bother renaming the templars to something else, but exalted marches are clearly crusades.

You might be surprised how often I've fallen into arguments with people who can see the abuses and political corruption of the Chantry as obvious, but due to a spectacular blind spot insist that those obvious bad aspects negate any comparison to the RCC.  Or who just take issue that I put voice to the comparison rather than just letting the elephant in the room go unmentioned.

Rifneno wrote...True, but they got imprisoned somehow.  Another, more powerful deity seems the most likely scenario even if it isn't exactly what the Chantry thinks.  The Architect pretty much confirms that the old gods are indeed imprisoned in the Earth and they are indeed being tainted into archdemons.  Which brings up another question I've always wondered... how do they know archdemon X was old god Y?

Still trying to figure that one out myself.

Rifneno wrote...We don't really know how the body jump thing works.  It's possible the only reason they can permakill an archdemon is because, tainted by the darkspawn, it's no longer a thinking creature and tries to jump to something a sane and thinking old god would know better than use.  Hmm.  Here's a spinoff theory.  Perhaps an animal is considered a "soulless vessel" as well and Andraste hopped on over to a dragon in an ironic twist of fate.  Flemeth.

Oh, you I like! That would be an interesting twist, for Andraste to have inadvertently hopped into a shape-shifting Flemeth.
Also, I can't help but re-consider a number of Flemeth's dialogue, especially some of her memorable one-liners, in the context of that theory.  Having her be Andraste puts an interesting spin on such things as "Considering what the world has done to me," and "When it comes time for your regrets, remember me."

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 05:37 .

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Seek alliances, make friends.  If you've potentially got a King of Ferelden who is highly sympathetic to the mage's cause and a mage having considerable support to be Viscount of Kirkwall, then prospects for peaceful reform aren't looking all that bad actually.  Sure, change isn't going to happen quickly and may not happen in your lifetime - but it's also not going to happen in your lifetime if you end up dead.

That'd just earn an exalted march, no more.  They almost launched one on Orzammar over a single murder, they're sure not going to let what you're talking about weaken their hold on Thedas. 

Well, at least this way you'd have some people on your side.  If it does come down to violence, I'd take that over starting out by painting mages as a bunch of crazy chantry exploding terrorists.

[Silfren]

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Seek alliances, make friends.  If you've potentially got a King of Ferelden who is highly sympathetic to the mage's cause and a mage having considerable support to be Viscount of Kirkwall, then prospects for peaceful reform aren't looking all that bad actually.  Sure, change isn't going to happen quickly and may not happen in your lifetime - but it's also not going to happen in your lifetime if you end up dead.

That'd just earn an exalted march, no more.  They almost launched one on Orzammar over a single murder, they're sure not going to let what you're talking about weaken their hold on Thedas. 

Well, at least this way you'd have some people on your side.  If it does come down to violence, I'd take that over starting out by painting mages as a bunch of crazy chantry exploding terrorists.

An Exalted March is a form of terrorism...but I suppose if people can't be expected to differentiate between the actions of one lone apostate and mages in general, then I can't be expected not to condemn all Andrastians everywhere as crusading religious fanatics.

[Beerfish]

Silfren wrote...


I've never suggested that all mages, everywhere, despise the Circle.  But we see enough evidence in Origins, Awakening, and DA2 to indicate that most mages fall somewhere on the scale of hating it outright or wishing it could be better.  The most telling evidence of that is seeing mages like Wynne and Irving, who don't hate it and actually seem to appreciate it to a degree, nevertheless express a desire for things to be better, and even express happiness at the thought of the Circle being given autonomy.  And that's not even touching on mages who have been so thoroughly convinced of themselves as being cursed that they hate their own existence.  And, as Lob has pointed out time and again, the fact that all the Circles rise up and emancipate themselves is a pretty strong indicator that the majority wanted to be free. 


From the DA wiki, "wishing things could be better" is another one of these all encompassing phrases.  Most people wish their lot in life could be better.  It all depends on what route you take to try to improve it though right?

• Aequitarians are the dominant faction in Ferelden's
  Circle. They promote a moderate and popular viewpoint that advocates a
  set of rules and guidelines for mages to live and operate by.
  Aequitarians believe that all mages should help people and follow a set
  of ideals- to this end, they appear to be comfortable working alongside
  the Templars. Known Aequitarians include: Senior Enchanters Torrin, Wynne, and First Enchanter Irving.
• Formari - The Tranquil belong to this group and do all the enchanting and trading on behalf of the Circle. Owain and Solivitus are Formari.
• Isolationists are those who wish to separate themselves from the Templars, Chantry and indeed civilization in order to practise magic without scrutiny. Possibly "on an island somewhere". Niall is the only Isolationist seen thus far.
• Libertarians desire that the Circle to become an
  autonomous, self-regulating order without Chantry involvement at any
  level. They form the largest opposition to the Aequitarian-Loyalist
  alliance. A more zealous faction called the Resolutionists are an
  offshoot of the Libertarians. The Libertarians count Uldred and Anders among their number.
• Loyalists follow the Chantry's
  word as it is written. They are often called "Chantry apologists" for
  accepting the Chantry/Templars ever-present observation. They are allied
  with the Aequitarians.
• Lucrosians believe that mages and their talents should be used for monetary gains

Anders does not find out he is "totally wrong" about Ser Alrik.  He heard of a plan to make all mages in the Free Marches tranquil, and his suspicion was confirmed.  It turned out to be the plan of only one man, that was rejected by the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander, but the fact remains that Alrik had advocated for the idea, so Anders was hardly wrong.  Also, Anders suggests that perhaps this incident proves he'd been wrong about the Grand Cleric, that perhaps "she's more reasonable than [he] thought," but unfortunately that turns out not to be the case.  Every time Hawke'n co attempt to talk to the Grand Cleric, they get hand-waving and "the Maker will provide" bull****.  It cannot be said that Anders didn't try to get the Grand Cleric to step in to do her damned job.

Poor proof reading in my part in my previous post it was supposed to read "about the Alrick incident" not just "about the alrick".  Both the Grand Cleric AND Meredith were proved to be innocent of the make everyone tranquil plan at that point in time.  There is zero evidence that Anders ever went to talk to the Grand Cleric and zero evidence that the grand cleric should or would be sharing every detail of her position with Hawke.  Your accusations of "proof" go both ways.

Ever try actually clicking on them to hear what they have to say?

It doesn't matter, they are disgruntled and peed off for getting caught and as you know you do encounter whats her face later on in the game and she is proven to be oh so reasonable and stable.  The fact remains they are not chained or stuck in a cell 24 hours a day.

No, not making blanket assumptions that all the Circles are as bad as Kirkwall's. Never once did.  I'm saying they don't have to be.  The institution of imprisoning mages is unjust, period. 

"Anders in particular, and mages in general, have been denied the opportunity to seek change through reason."  Your quote, mages in general.

Next question is what is your definition of "imprisoning mages unjustly?"  Who choses what justice is, what do you consider 'imprisoned'   My ongoing question as to 'what do the mages want" specifically has not been answered. 

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

No, not making blanket assumptions that all the Circles are as bad as Kirkwall's. Never once did.  I'm saying they don't have to be.  The institution of imprisoning mages is unjust, period. 

Indeed.  I hold to the notion that simply denying them family and marriage is alone enough to warrant rebellion.  They say the best things in life are free for a reason.  The question isn't "is this fight worth it?" it's "what fight would be more worth it?"

You might be surprised how often I've fallen into arguments with people who can see the abuses and political corruption of the Chantry as obvious, but due to a spectacular blind spot insist that those obvious bad aspects negate any comparison to the RCC. Or who just take issue that I put voice to the comparison rather than just letting the elephant in the room go unmentioned.

Believe me, I'm never surprised at religious folk refusing to acknowledge an obvious truth. =/ And before someone flames me, no I'm not saying all religious people are like that, only some.

Oh, you I like! That would be an interesting twist, for Andraste to have inadvertently hopped into a shape-shifting Flemeth.
Also, I can't help but re-consider a number of Flemeth's dialogue, especially some of her memorable one-liners, in the context of that theory.  Having her be Andraste puts an interesting spin on such things as "Considering what the world has done to me," and "When it comes time for your regrets, remember me."

Hehe. Well I didn't really mean it as Andraste happening to catch Flemeth at a vulnerable moment so much as she just took some random dragon's body and start a new life. Whatever was accomplished by her death would be undone if she told the world that she survived by any means. If that were the case it's probably why the old gods were dragons to begin with.

Wulfram wrote...

Well, at least this way you'd have some people on your side.  If it does come down to violence, I'd take that over starting out by painting mages as a bunch of crazy chantry exploding terrorists.

You realize of course that they *did* try a peaceful route? Anders put up with Elthina and Osama bin Meredith for the better part of a decade before he did the fireworks show. Even the people here, modern day people that saw these events firsthand, still mostly think the "crazy chantry exploding terrorist" garbage is accurate. Random people throughout Thedas that hear about things by twisted word of mouth aren't going to change their minds if the Chantry has successfully brainwashed them already.

Modifié par Rifneno, 10 mai 2011 - 06:32 .

[TGiNcRySiS]

I don't care about the Bi thing as much as I care the romances are lame in general. In DAO you really needed to work at it. The Bi thing is odd though. They should have some of the characters with exclusive sexuality.

[Rifneno]

TGiNcRySiS wrote...

I don't care about the Bi thing as much as I care the romances are lame in general. In DAO you really needed to work at it. The Bi thing is odd though. They should have some of the characters with exclusive sexuality.

Edit: And on that note...

Modifié par Rifneno, 10 mai 2011 - 06:45 .

[Beerfish]

Silfren wrote...


An Exalted March is a form of terrorism...but I suppose if people can't be expected to differentiate between the actions of one lone apostate and mages in general, then I can't be expected not to condemn all Andrastians everywhere as crusading religious fanatics.

Come on now, lets be at least a bit real.  You are falling into the nonsensical all mages are saints except crazy Anders trap.

Mages in general:

Redcliffe -  a free non circle mage, lovingly raised by his parents and schooled in magic causes massie havock because of making an innocent deal with a demon.
Honnoleath - Wilhelm, a seemingly free mage has a demon in his basement.
Wardens peak - A free from circle mage companion of the wardens summons truck loads of demons.
Lake Calenhad circle -  A high level circle mage goes nutso and takes over the tower with abominations and demons all over the place.
Kirkwall - First enchanter subversively working with a blood mage, goes beserk, uses blood magic and turns into a harvester.
Starkhaven mages - the Starkehaven cirle burns down, mages escape, leader mage uses blood magic and goes postal, has to be put down.  His apprentice and probably lover is either captured or let escape by the hero returns later to kidnap and try to kill the heros friend/sibling and kill Thrask, a very pro mage templar.
Tarahoe (sp?) - Delusions of  being tevinter mages and ruling all since mages have more power.

These are just major incidents, you also see a large smattering of other mages turned abominations, roving groups of blood mages etc.

You can list Anders as one crazed insane, possessed (through is OWN choice) as being the only reason mages should be taken to task.  Alot of people want to ignore or as bad blame all bad actions on the chantry or templars for all bad actions by mages.

The Chantry are no saints in the story of that there is no doubt, neither are the templars but both of these groups seem to do a heck of a lot less damage than mages.

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, at least this way you'd have some people on your side.  If it does come down to violence, I'd take that over starting out by painting mages as a bunch of crazy chantry exploding terrorists.

You realize of course that they *did* try a peaceful route? Anders put up with Elthina and Osama bin Meredith for the better part of a decade before he did the fireworks show. Even the people here, modern day people that saw these events firsthand, still mostly think the "crazy chantry exploding terrorist" garbage is accurate. Random people throughout Thedas that hear about things by twisted word of mouth aren't going to change their minds if the Chantry has successfully brainwashed them already.

I'm not sure you could really say that Anders' route was ever peaceful.  After all, his quests do tend to end up with lots of dead Templars, even if I'm not particularly sad about their fate.

In the end Anders gave up on hoping for less violent change because the spirit possessing him could not handle existing in a flawed world in which it takes time to change, not because the possibilities of that route were exhausted.

Fundamentally Mages can only win if the rest of the world decides that they can live with them free.  Anders' actions will make persuading them of that more difficult.

[Beerfish]

Rifneno wrote...


You realize of course that they *did* try a peaceful route? Anders put up with Elthina and Osama bin Meredith for the better part of a decade before he did the fireworks show. Even the people here, modern day people that saw these events firsthand, still mostly think the "crazy chantry exploding terrorist" garbage is accurate. Random people throughout Thedas that hear about things by twisted word of mouth aren't going to change their minds if the Chantry has successfully brainwashed them already.

LOL, funny you call Meredith Osama bin, you are fond of using real world villains in your pro mage propoganda. 

So a peaceful route is putting up with?  Interesting.  Who is "they" in they tried a peaceful route?  What do you call Anders move if not crazy chantry blowing terroist is not applicable?  Freedom fighter?

The more the pro mages people on these forums post the less cred they seem to have.  Justifying anything and every thing bad mages do and holding them totally blameless under all circumstance while condeming organizations that while flawed have done a great deal of good across thedas. 

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not sure you could really say that Anders' route was ever peaceful.  After all, his quests do tend to end up with lots of dead Templars, even if I'm not particularly sad about their fate.

In the end Anders gave up on hoping for less violent change because the spirit possessing him could not handle existing in a flawed world in which it takes time to change, not because the possibilities of that route were exhausted.

Fundamentally Mages can only win if the rest of the world decides that they can live with them free.  Anders' actions will make persuading them of that more difficult.

Uh, no.  As Silfren pointed out, he tried appealing to Elthina and it goes nowhere because she thinks the Maker will do her job for her.  The old harpy only cares that Alrik was "murdered" and not what he was involved in.  In the end he gave up on hoping for less violent change because less violent change isn't going to happen.  Tyrants don't say "oh you're right, I'll stop being bad now" because you present a convincing argument.  Especially when he could be imprisoned or worse just for trying to talk to someone with any authority.  Do you honestly think the Chantry's tyranny has lasted a thousand years because no one made a convincing case to the right priestess?

[Beerfish]

Wulfram wrote...


I'm not sure you could really say that Anders' route was ever peaceful.  After all, his quests do tend to end up with lots of dead Templars, even if I'm not particularly sad about their fate.

In the end Anders gave up on hoping for less violent change because the spirit possessing him could not handle existing in a flawed world in which it takes time to change, not because the possibilities of that route were exhausted.

Fundamentally Mages can only win if the rest of the world decides that they can live with them free.  Anders' actions will make persuading them of that more difficult.

Not to mention his outright murdering of an innocent mage girl in his templar hating frenzy after Hawke and the crew resuce her from Alrick.  But that was the Chantries fault obviously.

[Rifneno]

Beerfish wrote...

Rifneno wrote...


You realize of course that they *did* try a peaceful route? Anders put up with Elthina and Osama bin Meredith for the better part of a decade before he did the fireworks show. Even the people here, modern day people that saw these events firsthand, still mostly think the "crazy chantry exploding terrorist" garbage is accurate. Random people throughout Thedas that hear about things by twisted word of mouth aren't going to change their minds if the Chantry has successfully brainwashed them already.

LOL, funny you call Meredith Osama bin, you are fond of using real world villains in your pro mage propoganda. 

So a peaceful route is putting up with?  Interesting.  Who is "they" in they tried a peaceful route?  What do you call Anders move if not crazy chantry blowing terroist is not applicable?  Freedom fighter?

The more the pro mages people on these forums post the less cred they seem to have.  Justifying anything and every thing bad mages do and holding them totally blameless under all circumstance while condeming organizations that while flawed have done a great deal of good across thedas. 

Quiet, churl.  Your betters are talking.

[Ryzaki]

When did Anders try to appeal to the Grand Cleric?

Only thing I saw was Anders pipping in after Hawke brought certain things to the Grand Cleric's attention.
 

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

When did Anders try to appeal to the Grand Cleric?

Only thing I saw was Anders pipping in after Hawke brought certain things to the Grand Cleric's attention.
 

Err, you're playing Hawke.  The point of view doesn't switch over to your other group members going about their lives.

[Silfren]

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

Poor proof reading in my part in my previous post it was supposed to read "about the Alrick incident" not just "about the alrick".  Both the Grand Cleric AND Meredith were proved to be innocent of the make everyone tranquil plan at that point in time.  There is zero evidence that Anders ever went to talk to the Grand Cleric and zero evidence that the grand cleric should or would be sharing every detail of her position with Hawke.  Your accusations of "proof" go both ways.[/quote]

With Anders in your party, or without him, you can confront the Grand Cleric about Ser Alrik.  And some other things as well.  She didn't approve of his Tranquil Solution, but she also was well aware of how bad things were for mages in Kirkwall, and she repeatedly did nothing.  Nothing except say that the Maker would handle things in his own time.


[quote] Silfren wrote...
[quote] Beerfish wrote...
Ever try actually clicking on them to hear what they have to say?
[*]
It doesn't matter, they are disgruntled and peed off for getting caught and as you know you do encounter whats her face later on in the game and she is proven to be oh so reasonable and stable.  The fact remains they are not chained or stuck in a cell 24 hours a day.[/quote]
I'm not arguing that Grace was a paragon of virtue.  But chains don't have to be literal, and mages don't have to be locked in their cells, for the ambient dialogue you hear throughout the city, and from talking directly with NPCs as well as companions, that life in Kirkwall's Circle is unequivocally bad.[quote] Silfren wrote...[quote]Beerfish wrote...

No, not making blanket assumptions that all the Circles are as bad as Kirkwall's. Never once did.  I'm saying they don't have to be.  The institution of imprisoning mages is unjust, period. 

"Anders in particular, and mages in general, have been denied the opportunity to seek change through reason."  Your quote, mages in general.

Next question is what is your definition of "imprisoning mages unjustly?"  Who choses what justice is, what do you consider 'imprisoned'   My ongoing question as to 'what do the mages want" specifically has not been answered.[/quote]Rephrased, what I said wa that I never said that all the Circles throughout Thedas were as bad as the one in Kirkwall, but that that they didn't have to be as bad for them to nevertheless be unjust. My definition of imprisoning mages unjustly has to do with it not being just to rip children away from their family and deny them all future contact with the same, to deny them the right to marry and even to have children, and to require mages to be locked away from the world, needing permission to set foot outside of the Circle.

[/quote]

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

When did Anders try to appeal to the Grand Cleric?

Only thing I saw was Anders pipping in after Hawke brought certain things to the Grand Cleric's attention.
 

Err, you're playing Hawke.  The point of view doesn't switch over to your other group members going about their lives.

Right and when you can show where Anders says he tried to appeal to the Grand Cleric. 

Which he didn't considering Hawke can ask him several times and the answer is never "i tried." but rather "it wouldn't work." 

[Sylvianus]

The more the pro mages people on these forums post the less cred they seem to have. Justifying anything and every thing bad mages do and holding them totally blameless under all circumstance while condeming organizations that while flawed have done a great deal of good across thedas.

CQFD. It does not even need to have discussions with them. Their contradictions are hopeless.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 10 mai 2011 - 07:01 .

[Silfren]

TGiNcRySiS wrote...

I don't care about the Bi thing as much as I care the romances are lame in general. In DAO you really needed to work at it. The Bi thing is odd though. They should have some of the characters with exclusive sexuality.

That was...utterly random.  Posted in the wrong thread, maybe?  LOL

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry's teachings apparently are required to provoke the kind of responses that have Andrastians trying to murder mages simply for being mages (as Wynne describes) when we know alternative cultures don't hate mages simply for having magical ability.[/quote]

Who's talking about hating mages for having magical ability?

I was talking about some mages fearing themselves.

A fear that is justified by the very real threat of demons taking over their minds. [/quote]

We see that as a product of the Andrastian faith. In Origins, we have the mage Keili (from the Magi Origin) who hates being a mage and sees her magic as a curse because of her faith, and in DA2 we have Hawke's sister Bethany, who has concerns over her magical ability because she also sees her magic as a curse because her Andrastian faith tells her it is. Keili thinks the templars should murder every man, woman, and child because of their magical ability, while it takes Bethany several years in the Gallows to realize that the Chantry controlled Circles are wrong despite what her religion says. We never heard about or see this loathing with mages who aren't Andrastian, who aren't taught that their magic is a curse and are condemned for being mages.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why he devotes his life to protecting refugees from the darkspawn as Master Levyn.[/quote]

No, But it does explain his fearing becoming a tranquil and turning to blood magic because he's not a good enough mage. [/quote]

If Jowan is taking on darkspawn on his own and protecting refugees from them, I'm not sure how incompetent he can be as a mage, especially when the refugees note that he's saved their lives before.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We can ask the child mage Ella how privleged she felt when Ser Alrik threatened to make her tranquil and rape her. [/quote]

Well, I'm sure Ella wasn't feeling very privileged when the abomination that came to rescue her from the Templar that threatened her illegally and without the sanction of the Order or the Chantry instead killed her for using the D-word. [/quote]

So a thousand years of oppression and genocide that lead to the conditions where Ser Alrik can threaten a child with an illegal tranquility and rape is comparable to one single encounter with Anders driven by the Spirit of Jusice who is driven because his first love was illegally turned tranquil on orders from Ser Alrik? Anders and Hawke can see the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, and even Fenris and Sebastian never disagree with their opinion on the term "slavery" used to identify the Chantry controlled Circles (as it's the argument that can persuade Fenris to side with Hawke and the mages).

Furthermore, Hawke can talk "Justice" down and Ella can leave Kirkwall to live a live free of the templars, so her letter thanking Hawke made it sound that she felt pretty privleged not to live in an enviornment where mages are lashed simply for talking to civilians, or killed in an act of genocide because of one, single apostate who you addressed as an abomination.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

But while she was among the living, having an education, a well-maintained and clean environment, with meals, clothing and all other basic necessities freely provided are things that many of the 'free' people of Thedas could only dream of having. I suspect there are many unfortunates who would gladly go into the Circles for a chance at that. [/quote]

Isn't that basically the argument Fenris' sister makes in support of living under Tevinter slavery?

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Weak? [/quote]

She was weak. Yes. [/quote]

I respectfully disagree.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Alrik wasn't alone in his threats to Ella, and Alain is raped because he eludes to it even if Kerras is killed in Act III. There's also the issue of the mages who get lashed merely for speaking to civilians.[/quote]

"Nearly."  [/quote]

No, mages get lashed merely for speaking to civilians. It's a monstrous enviornment where mages can lose their very humanity, and I can't think of anything more horrific than the Rite of Tranquility.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

And I also don't count nameless templar lackeys who exist for Hawke to kill. I'm sure you don't count the legions of nameless mage mobs in your arguments either. At least you shouldn't, since there's over 9,000 nameless evil mages over the course of the game.  [/quote]

I'm not addressing the amount of templars, I'm addressing that there were templars with Ser Alrik who clearly had no issue over the fact he was going to make a child mage tranquil illegally, or that he threatened her with rape since she will do anything he commands as a tranquil.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

And again, Thedas on the whole is a pretty brutal place. The templar order is not unique in that and given the setting in some ways they're more lenient than they could be. (See: Anders many, many escape attempts. And of course, Idunna. ) [/quote]

Lenient? Thedas on the whole doesn't seem to commit the Rite of Tranquility on civilians or ordering an genocide against entire populations of people simply for being who they are, but the mages live under that threat with the Right of Annulment, which was invoked because an apostate (who was never part of the Kirkawll Circle) killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No one is saying all the templars are bad or evil, but the Chantry controlled Circles have lead to a revolt across the continent. [/quote]

... no offense, but you seem to say or at least strongly imply things like that quite a lot. Like here:


[quote]Remind me how privleged a mage should feel to live in an enviornment where their humanity can be stripped from them [/quote]


That definitely leads one to believe you feel the majority of templars are bad or evil people working for a bad or evil organization. [/quote]

I see the Chantry controlled Circles as wrong, which doesn't mean I see every templar as bad or evil. You'll have to excuse me if I think living in a dictatorship under a religious organization that has distain for mages and where you can have your humanity and agency stripped from you is a bad place for a mage to live in.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry controlled Circles have failed.[/quote]

After a thousand years.

I'd say that makes them overall quite the success. It's a pity that they couldn't have had a few needed reforms and stood for another thousand. [/quote]

So the Chantry is basically Tevinter 2.0.

Oppressing mages in a dictatorship for a thousand years shouldn't last for another thousand years. After nearly a thousand years of genocide against men, women, and children and an institution that has stripped humanity from the mages, it's about time the Chantry controlled Circles came to an end.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Reforms? There's already a rebellion across the continent, and the Chantry has lost the Circles.[/quote]

Yes.

I was referring to the part I quoted, about Wynne and Irving's reaction to the mage boon and what it meant at the time. I suppose for clarity I should have said "reforms were needed."[/quote]

First Enchanter Irving is thrilled with the idea of the mages being free from the Chantry and the templars. He thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from their "shackles," because he clearly likes the idea of mages having the right to govern themselves.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right and when you can show where Anders says he tried to appeal to the Grand Cleric. 

Which he didn't considering Hawke can ask him several times and the answer is never "i tried." but rather "it wouldn't work." 

He says he's going to talk to her after the Dissent quest.

Sylvianus wrote...

CQFD. It does not even need to have discussions with them. Their contradictions are hopeless.

You haven't even asked our ages.  Maybe we're old and thus infallible, did you ever think of that?

Silfren wrote...

That was...utterly random.  Posted in the wrong thread, maybe?  LOL

I'm not complaining.  I've been waiting for an excuse to use that mother pic.  

LobselVith8
wrote...

So the Chantry is basically Tevinter 2.0.

Yeah, but they do it to a minority rather than a majority so it's totally okay.  Or something.

[Wulfram]

Rifneno, you are focusing too much on Elthina, who - whether through circumstance or defect of character - was a rather ineffectual figure. Change will come by changing the minds of nations, and only then will the Chantry follow.

Segments of Kirkwall's populace and nobles rally to a mage supporting Hawke against the tyranny of Meredith. This is a massive opportunity for the cause of the mages - and one which Justice's idiotic tantrum throws away.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

He says he's going to talk to her after the Dissent quest.

Uh...what line? Because I certainly don't recall that. 

Not to mention saying you're going to talk to someone and actually doing it are different things. 

Not to mention that was only going to happen (to him) if he saw her support of the idea. Seeing that she didn't support the idea took the wind out of his sails for his righteous indignation. (as you can see when you bring him along with you).