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[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno, you are focusing too much on Elthina, who - whether through circumstance or defect of character - was a rather ineffectual figure. Change will come by changing the minds of nations, and only then will the Chantry follow.

Segments of Kirkwall's populace and nobles rally to a mage supporting Hawke against the tyranny of Meredith. This is a massive opportunity for the cause of the mages - and one which Justice's idiotic tantrum throws away.

Except the Divine was readying an army to crush Kirkwall, lest it "fall to magic."  Public opinion is great, but the Chantry is going to defend its stranglehold on Thedas with bloodshed if need be.

[Silfren]

Come on now, lets be at least a bit real.  You are falling into the nonsensical all mages are saints except crazy Anders trap.

Where on earth did you get that idea?  I've never once said any such thing. 

 Beerfish wrote...
Mages in general:

Redcliffe -  a free non circle mage, lovingly raised by his parents and schooled in magic causes massie havock because of making an innocent deal with a demon.
Honnoleath - Wilhelm, a seemingly free mage has a demon in his basement.
Wardens peak - A free from circle mage companion of the wardens summons truck loads of demons.
Lake Calenhad circle -  A high level circle mage goes nutso and takes over the tower with abominations and demons all over the place.
Kirkwall - First enchanter subversively working with a blood mage, goes beserk, uses blood magic and turns into a harvester.
Starkhaven mages - the Starkehaven cirle burns down, mages escape, leader mage uses blood magic and goes postal, has to be put down.  His apprentice and probably lover is either captured or let escape by the hero returns later to kidnap and try to kill the heros friend/sibling and kill Thrask, a very pro mage templar.
Tarahoe (sp?) - Delusions of  being tevinter mages and ruling all since mages have more power.

These are just major incidents, you also see a large smattering of other mages turned abominations, roving groups of blood mages etc.

Redcliffe: An example of a child whose mother was so determined not to lose him to the Circle that she sought other means.  Would not have happened if she didn't have to worry about losing her son forever, or him not losing his title as heir to Redcliffe.  This is an argument in favor of having a system for training mages that does not involve tearing them away from their family.  

Honnleath: I fail to see how this is an argument for or against the Circle, given the actual circumstances of that storyline.

Warden's Peak: The Wardens were in a desperate situation.  Not arguing whether Avernus was right or not, but still not seeing this as much of an argument for or against the Circle.

Lake Calenhad: Easily argued to have been caused by the Circle's oppression to begin with, as the mages there wouldn't have been so eager to follow Uldred with his promises of being free from the Chantry if they had already been free. 

Kirkwall: The full extent of Orsino's involvement with Quentin is not clear.  But again you could easily argue that it is the oppressive nature of the Circle in general, and the especially brutal nature of Kirkwall in particular, that led to this.

Starkhaven: Decimus and Grace are indicated to have been criminally rogue, but it isn't exactly clear that they didn't turn out that way because of the oppressive nature of the Circle.  Even if it were true, and I quite agree that it is, that they were primarily interested in power for power's sake quite apart from their opinion on the Circle, even within this storyline you still have mages like Alain who were going along out of desperation and not having many other options available.

Tarohne: She is the only example you've listed that actually does stand as evidence in favor of your argument.  None of the others are as straightforward in making your case as you think.

 Beerfish wrote...
You can list Anders as one crazed insane, possessed (through is OWN choice) as being the only reason mages should be taken to task.  Alot of people want to ignore or as bad blame all bad actions on the chantry or templars for all bad actions by mages.

The Chantry are no saints in the story of that there is no doubt, neither are the templars but both of these groups seem to do a heck of a lot less damage than mages.

That depends on your perspective.  I maintain that the institution of the Chantry has in large part created the very problem it claims to defend against.  Not in all cases, no.  But its practices are the perfect recipe for a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It looks for all the world like a racket set up to push mages into behaving badly in order to retro-justify their imprisonment.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 07:29 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Now let me put it simply. The First Enchanter could, be considered the "Arl" of the Circle. He is the final authority in the case of punishments towards the mages. And just like any other Arl, he can place any punishment he wishes on the mages, despite the severity of the crime. This of course works both ways. However, at the risk of the RoA, a First Enchanter would enver let a severe crime pass unpunished.

Besides the fact that we know Knight-Commander Greagoir signed the Rite against Jowan and there's no proof that First Enchanter Irving had any say over the matter (including when he explicitly states he had no say over the matter), why do you keep professing the First Enchanter has some say over the Rite of Tranquility when everything we have been shown so far contradicts this?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If Karl's case had been put before Meredith and Orsino, and that they decided on using the Rite on him, it would have been fully legal, if somewhat harsh.

There's no evidence the First Enchanter has any say over the Rite of Tranquility, particularly when Irving says that if it was up to him Jowan wouldn't be made tranquil.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic is not independant of the Fade. It is taught by demons. It has clear connections to the fade. It is however seperate from lyrium, which binds all other forms of magic.

Actually, it's noted that some mages prefer blood magic because it's not tied spirits or the Fade, and there's no consensus on the inception of blood magic: Dumat, the Arlathan elves, or demons are among the beliefs that people hold.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than gameplay mechanics we have yet to see any blood magic be taught. The original way to unlock it was through a demon, in DA:A it was through a book merely for convenience's sake. So far, we got the lore stating Blood Magic is taught by demons, and nothing to disprove it.

Nothing to disprove it? According to the codex on the Old Gods:

"Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men. The Archon Thalsian, first of the Magisters, who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught to him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an Empire. In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with imperial power."

[Silfren]

Beerfish wrote...

Wulfram wrote...


I'm not sure you could really say that Anders' route was ever peaceful.  After all, his quests do tend to end up with lots of dead Templars, even if I'm not particularly sad about their fate.

In the end Anders gave up on hoping for less violent change because the spirit possessing him could not handle existing in a flawed world in which it takes time to change, not because the possibilities of that route were exhausted.

Fundamentally Mages can only win if the rest of the world decides that they can live with them free.  Anders' actions will make persuading them of that more difficult.

Not to mention his outright murdering of an innocent mage girl in his templar hating frenzy after Hawke and the crew resuce her from Alrick.  But that was the Chantries fault obviously.

Pick the right dialogue and he doesn't kill her.  But either way, that's not exactly how things go down.  He was out of control in that situation.  It isn't as though Anders, in full control of his faculties, just thought "I'mma kill that girl just because."  Please note I'm not downplaying the fact that Justice lost his **** over being called a demon and was ready to kill over it.  Just that trying to paint that situation as Anders murdering a girl for the pure joy of it is not entirely accurate.

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...

The more the pro mages people on these forums post the less cred they seem to have. Justifying anything and every thing bad mages do and holding them totally blameless under all circumstance while condeming organizations that while flawed have done a great deal of good across thedas.

CQFD. It does not even need to have discussions with them. Their contradictions are hopeless.

This doesn't mean much, coming as it does from the person who says "She was old and tired and unwilling to do her job...that doesn't make her corrupt."

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 07:31 .

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno, you are focusing too much on Elthina, who - whether through circumstance or defect of character - was a rather ineffectual figure. Change will come by changing the minds of nations, and only then will the Chantry follow.

Segments of Kirkwall's populace and nobles rally to a mage supporting Hawke against the tyranny of Meredith. This is a massive opportunity for the cause of the mages - and one which Justice's idiotic tantrum throws away.

Except the Divine was readying an army to crush Kirkwall, lest it "fall to magic."  Public opinion is great, but the Chantry is going to defend its stranglehold on Thedas with bloodshed if need be.

Which makes Anders' decision to spark the conflict off with an atrocity even more idiotic.  If war between Chantry and Mages must come, far better for the cause of the Mages that the Chantry be the ones who strike the first blow.

[Rifneno]

Silfren wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

The more the pro mages people on these forums post the less cred they seem to have. Justifying anything and every thing bad mages do and holding them totally blameless under all circumstance while condeming organizations that while flawed have done a great deal of good across thedas.

CQFD. It does not even need to have discussions with them. Their contradictions are hopeless.

This doesn't mean much, coming as it does from the person who says "She was old and tired and unwilling to do her job...that doesn't maker her corrupt."

Perfect place for Justice's "You have given in to sloth!" tantrum.

[Silfren]

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno, you are focusing too much on Elthina, who - whether through circumstance or defect of character - was a rather ineffectual figure. Change will come by changing the minds of nations, and only then will the Chantry follow.

Segments of Kirkwall's populace and nobles rally to a mage supporting Hawke against the tyranny of Meredith. This is a massive opportunity for the cause of the mages - and one which Justice's idiotic tantrum throws away.

Except the Divine was readying an army to crush Kirkwall, lest it "fall to magic."  Public opinion is great, but the Chantry is going to defend its stranglehold on Thedas with bloodshed if need be.

Which makes Anders' decision to spark the conflict off with an atrocity even more idiotic.  If war between Chantry and Mages must come, far better for the cause of the Mages that the Chantry be the ones who strike the first blow.

A thousand years of imprisonment and oppression doesn't count as the first blow?

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

Which makes Anders' decision to spark the conflict off with an atrocity even more idiotic.  If war between Chantry and Mages must come, far better for the cause of the Mages that the Chantry be the ones who strike the first blow.

The Chantry did strike the first blow.  One possessed apostate, who in most cases is promptly executed, was responsible the Chantry's destruction.  The genocide of Kirkwall's Circle for an act they did not do was a legal action on behalf of a high ranking member of the Chantry, carried out by hundreds if not thousands of their soldiers.

[Deztyn]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

People will always be fearful idiots.  It doesn't mean society as a whole should give paranoid idiots what they want at the expense of innocent people.  Look how many people gave Bioware grief about the "gay agenda" because the romance options are all bisexual (or aseuxal in the case of the coward).  Gay agenda?  "I'm sorry, but that's incredibly stupid." - Sarda, 8-bit theater.  Yes, there will still be people fearful of anything different than them.  But... well, to be blunt... so what?

Also, every one of the mages you named there never got proper training because their parents didn't want to lose them to the Circle.  The Chantry's heavy-handed rules make things worse, not better.[/quote]

Again. I was referring to mages fearing themselves and the very real threat of losing their minds to a demon. And a system that successfully replaces the Circles will require taking children away from their parents. Some parents are likely to not want that, even if it's not a permanent separation, and are probably even less likely to comply with an organization that doesn't have the spiritual authority of the Chantry and military authority of the Templars.

[quote]
[quote]
When has anyone, even the most pro-templar players around, denied that being a circle mage kinda sucks? Of course it could be better. Thedas on a whole could be much better. It's just a question of how bad it really is, especially when compared to the lot of the average citizen of Thedas. A people who on a whole are uneducated, live in what we would consider poverty and have very, very few of the rights we take for granted. Mages are disadvantaged in many ways, but they're also quite privileged in others.
[/quote]

You're kidding, right?  They torture mages for talking to outsiders, tranquil for little to no reason, rape, lock people in small rooms with no light indefinitely, the list of crimes just goes on and on even before you factor in that they're denied the most basic human rights of marriage and family that even peasants in the most oppressed places have.  I refuse to even entertain the idea that that level of abuse isn't so bad because other people's lives suck too.[/quote]

The rape is illegal. The tranquiling for little to no reason is illegal. The locking people in little rooms with no light is after Meredith goes loony in what is already the worst of the Circles. Mages can get permission to marry. They can get permission to leave. Kirkwall shouldn't be the standard we use to judge everything a Circle is or could be. It's the ultimate worst case scenario on all sides of the conflict.

Of course it's bad, but is it bad by the standards of Thedas? The commoner humans, the elves, the casteless, the grey wardens, they all live in a world of full of bad. I'd like things to be better all around, but if we reinvent the entire society from the ground up we're not talking about the world of Dragon Age anymore.

[quote]
[quote]
Even if we got rid of the Chantry controlled Circles, any system that has even the slightest chance of working to control magic and limit the chances of abominations popping up would require mages to have some kind of close supervision, if not by the templars than by some other group.
[/quote]

Agreed.[/quote]

<3

[quote]
[quote]
Nearly every instance of outright abuse is linked to two Templars: Alrik and Karras. There's nothing to suggest that it's allowed or endorsed by the Chantry or the Templar Order, it's a few sadists using their power to hurt others. This is not unique to templars or the Circles. If Karras was a guard or a mercenary or a bartender, he'd probably still be a sadistic bastard. The only thing that would change is the identity of his victims.[/quote]

Osama bin Meredith is innocent?  Jesus.  Remember when you were telling me to try the pro-templar playthrough once?  I eventually managed to get ahold of enough elephant-dose antiemetics to go through the templar ending once.  Meredith says she's "eager to begin" when she asks if you're ready to charge on the Gallows.  She's about to commit genocide against a group that even she admits contains many good and innocent people, and she's as giddy as a virgin on prom night.  There is only one word for that.  EVIL.

And I don't accept the lyrium idol completely letting her off the hook.  I'm sure it made her crazier than usual but she was still close enough to her normal psychotic self that only a rebel faction of the templars thought she had gone mad.[/quote]

I have a problem talking about Meredith's character post-Boom. I can never decide how much crazy should be pinned on her shiny sword. She starts as a strict woman, who's paranoid but right. (There was a conspiracy. There were blood mages in the Gallows.) Ends up... well... look shiny sword!

Innocent certainly isn't a word I'd use to describe her. But I'm not willing to blame her for everything her subordinates do either.

[quote]I also don't accept that Alrik and Karras were isolated cases.  Both of them had practically a platoon of templars with them when they openly spoke of their crimes.  I also doubt Alrik managed to make all those mages tranquil without his superiors noticing.  Another random conversation bit from a roaming mage in the Gallows is a woman that, horrified, says "I heard Ser Alrik place the order for me to be made Tranquil.  I passed my Harrowing!  He can't do that!"  If he was placing an order, he was going through official channels.[/quote]

Not completely isolated. No. But I was pointing out that most of the outright abuse we hear about in game is attributed to them. Equating all templars to those two is as bad as thinking all mages are Huan or Denarius. Templars aren't evil by default. Just like mages aren't. But there's guaranteed to be a few bastards among them simply because they're people.

We don't know what's included in that order. "Look at all this (manufactured) evidence of this woman dealing with demons, consorting with Resolutionists and sacrificing innocent kittens to false gods. We must take steps to limit the danger." Or just "Tranquil her now please so I can sex her up. Kthx." I suspect it's something like the first.

[quote]
[quote]The Tranquil Solution was one deranged man who dies in Act II. The templars on the whole were not responsible.[/quote]

The supposed model of a good templar, Cullen, clearly defends the Tranquil Solution if you ask him about it.  So, yeah...[/quote]

I never took away from the conversation that Cullen approves of the Tranquil Solution. The Solution is about making every last mage tranquil. Cullen never seems to support this. But he does make it clear he supports the existence and use of the Right of Tranquility.

And I wouldn't call Cullen the model of a good templar. A generally good templar, yes. One whose attitudes clearly shift by the endgame to become a better templar.

Of course to call him good you have to allow that a Templar's job does include taking mages to the circle (Yes, even Saint Bethany ) and keeping them there (Yes, even Saint Bethany ). It does not include abusing them, but It does not include being their best buddies either.

[quote]
[quote]It says that Circle life isn't ideal. It says that reforms are needed. That doesn't translate to continent wide rebellion and a dissolution of the Circles entirely.[/quote]

The reform that's needed is a shiv in Divine Justinia V's kidney.  The Chantry has abused its power for too long.  It needs to pay.  It should not be let off the hook with a peaceful reform.  The last time a tyranical empire in Thedas was given the chance to reform on its own terms was the Tevinter Imperium.  Look how that turned out.[/quote]

Violent reform will be difficult in a culture that still revers Andraste and the Maker. With mages at the head of such a revolution a new Imperium is almost a given if they win.

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 07:39 .

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

For some bizarre and unknown reason there is this general thought that ALL mages hate the circle, hate templars and are mistreated when that is clearly not the case, the majority of the mages do not belong to the 'we must have freedom' faction.

I don't believe anyone made such a statement. The only thing that's been addressed is that all the Circles of Magi rose up to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Varric even addresses that the Chantry has lost the Circles, and the templars have left the Chantry to hunt down the mages. We also know from Awakening that Wynne addressed that a near majority of the mages attending the meeting in Cumberland wanted to be free from Chantry control.

Beerfish wrote...

You will also have to tell me about the 'change through reason'  At one point in DA2, after Anders finds out he is totally wrong about the Alrick, make them all tranquil quest he says maybe he better go and talk to the grand cleric as there is still hope.  To my knowledge that is the last we hear of that, he just ends up blowing up the Chantry.

Hawke and Anders can see Grand Cleric Elthina, but as is typical of her character, she does nothing when she's presented with the papers on the "Tranquil Solution." Time and again, Elthina does nothing, despite the fact she can command templars (as she did when she ordered them to send Orsino to the Gallows) and is the superior of Knight-Commander Meredith (as her codex attests to).

Beerfish wrote...

Re Chains:  Apostates from the Starkhaven chantry who ran away and were helped by Thrask and the hero are seen for a lot of the game sunning themsleves in the area outside the gallows.

A handful out of how many mages exactly? Hundreds? Thousands? I don't see an entire population of men, women, and children out in the courtyard, after all. And we know that the mages are told not to speak to civilians under the threat of physical harm.

Beerfish wrote...

My on going issue is in your last sentence "the Chantry doesn't want to listen to us".  What exactly do the mages want? 

The Hero of Ferelden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence. It's clearly what First Enchanter Irving wanted when he is happy about the royal boon, and thanks The Warden when he could have asked for riches instead. However, the Chantry said no. Dev Michael Hamilton noted that dictatorships don't tend to change or provide freedom simply because people ask them to.

Beerfish wrote...

That is the big question and not some meaningless statement like "To be more free."  The plight of mages in Kirkwall is bad of that there is no question but people are making the same blanket assumptions about all circles and all of the chantry that they accuse the templars and chantry of making about mages.

All the Circles of Magi did rise up to free themselves from Chantry control, though - despite all the different fraternities of the enchanters, the Circles across the continent of Thedas rose up to free themselves from the Chantry and its templars. That's why the templars left the Chantry to hunt the mages.

[Deztyn]

[quote]Silfren wrote...
  Please don't follow the trend of assuming that people who think the Chantry-controlled Circles in their present incarnation are unjust are also thereby advocating for mages to not be required to undergo training or be completely devoid of any oversight.  Not one person in this thread, as far as I can remember, has made any such claim.  The only people who've actually suggested it are those who keep putting words in our mouths by suggesting that we do.[/quote]

Well you're putting words in my mouth right now.

I was talking about mages feeling like they were cursed, Not teaching them about the demons out to get them is irresponsible. But, teaching them that demons are in the fade whenever they sleep waiting to possess the weak or stupid and turn them into monsters capable of destruction on a massive scale guarantees that some will see themselves as cursed.

[quote]
I don't think anyone has denied it.  But there's been plenty of people insisting that suck or no, it's necessary.  Which is what the people in my camp refuse to accept.  And I really am not impressed with the "other people have it bad too" argument.  Firstly, we have seen not one shred of evidence that any other class of people in Thedas is subjected to similar treatment as mages, and given divine sanction to boot.  Even within the game, people, anti-mage, neutral, and pro-mage alike, comment on the general lot of mages.  It is a unique station unto that specific group.  Secondly, this is not a discussion on fixing all the inequities of Thedas, it is a discussion on the unique nature of the inequities faced by mages.  Trying to make this into a comparative discussion over who has it worse--de facto playing the oppression olympics--is a derailing technique.  It's always infuriating to see people play the "but other people have it bad too" card in a discussion of real-world injustices.  Seeing someone actually bring it up in a discussion of fictitious ones is amusing, in a cringeworthy sort of way.[/quote]

City elves? Dalish elves? Casteless? Tevinter Slaves? These people are all mistreated in unique and special ways and lacking the ability to change their lots. They are all part of a larger society that sanctions their bad treatment. And Thedas on a whole is a very bleak place, even for people who are not part of those groups.

Derailing? The world they live in is important to the discussion. I find it cringe-worthy when people view the mage situation in total isolation and filtered through modern views of society that don't apply to Thedas.

[quote]
[quote] Deztyn wrote...
"You were given to the Circle. I was given to the Chantry. Hawke was driven away from home by the Darkspawn. None of us are free."
[/quote]

Yeah, that bit of party banter is one of many reasons I dislike Sebastian.  I don't respect that logic in real life, I'm certainly not going to give it any credence in a fictional setting.  The situations that Sebastian tries to compare are not comparable.  He was given to the Chantry as a child, but as an adult, he is free to leave.  It's also rather likely that had he chosen to run away as a child, he would not have been hounded by templars hunting him down like a rabid animal.  Hawke being driven away by her home was a more or less once-in-a-lifetime event akin to a natural disaster that happens every few hundred years.  It's not the kind of situational the average Thedosian has looming over their head on a daily, ongoing basis.  Furthermore, Hawke had a choice of where to go.  They had reasons for choosing Kirkwall, but all of Ferelden was available to them.  And after a year in Kirkwall, Hawke had the option of setting out elsewhere.  Moreso after earning her fortune in the Deep Roads.  In contrast, a mage never has the option to leave the Circle, excepting unusual circumstances such as the Mage Warden being conscripted by Duncan because a Blight was on.  Other people in Thedas are limited by everyday circumstances, many of which can be overcome.  Mages, on the other hand, are legally restricted in ways far beyond the average citizen.  Trying to draw false equivalencies between mages and non-mages won't cut it.[/quote]

Well I know Alistair was free to leave whenever he wanted-- wait. No. He had to be conscripted by Duncan. Templars on a whole are locked in from the moment they take their vows and start taking Lyrium. Poor templars, victims of the Chantry.

And Ines the botanist didn't seem to be on a mission to save the world from darkspawn. Neither was Wilhem. Mages can and do get permission to leave the Circle and to be married. Wilhem even had kids.
And again. Some reforms were needed. But legally restricting a class of people who can blow things up with their minds or become abominations is not objectively evil.

[quote] Ser Alrik wasn't alone in the Dissent quest. He had quite a few other templars with him.  Do not play the "just following orders" card, because any templar who saw his actions as wrong could have either gone to Meredith, or to Elthina.  And I'm not so certain that we see hard evidence in the game that the abuses can be linked solely to Alrik and Karras.  Certainly it doesn't change the fact that we do see evidence in game that the mages as a whole are dreadfully unhappy, and I doubt that that environment would be caused by two templars working entirely alone.  The mages quite clearly didn't feel they had any means of challenging the abuses against them, which speaks to system-wide abuse, not two lone sadists.  [/quote]

Two sadists and their mobs. The victim of one of those sadists states he's not supposed to tell or he'll get tranquiled. Why threaten him into silence if the abuse he endures is being explicitly or implicitly allowed?

[quote]Finally, I think we see rather a lot of evidence in game suggesting that Elthina was willing to turn a blind eye to the abuses.  Endorsement does not have to be explicitly stated. [/quote]

We have evidence of no such thing.

[quote]Another point is that if Karras was a guard or a bartender, it stands to reason that anyone abused by him would have means to fight back, one way or another, either by reacting in self-defense, or by seeking legal redress.  Mages are not shown to have that right.  [/quote]

Mages do have rights. And they're supposed to have a First Enchanter who can work with the Knight-Commander to see that their rights aren't being trampled on. Kirkwall fails as much do to Orsino's incompetence as it does from Meredith's.

[quote]
[quote] Deztyn...
Idunna, a blood mage who was responsible for putting demons in templars as part of a plot to corrupt the entire order isn't killed or made tranquil. Just put in solitary confinement. Idunna. The Tranquil Solution was one deranged man who dies in Act II. The templars on the whole were not responsible.
[/quote]
"Just" put in solitary confinement?  Getting away from Idunna's actions themselves, solitary confinement is no small thing. It would have been more humane to execute her.  Given her crime of blood magic and that execution is the usual punishment as far as understand it, it almost seems as if the templars deliberately chose a crueler punishment.  As if they figured, what the hell, the kind of law she broke means that she exempted herself from any rules of decency.  Anders was also put in solitary, for a year, after his sixth escape attempt.  And, again, Ser Alrik had followers.[/quote]

There is no getting away from Idunna's actions themselves. You can't divorce the punishment someone receives for a crime from the crime itself. Idunna has the power to control people's minds. She controls peoples minds. Their minds. Sure they could have made her tranquil for her crimes. She wasn't made tranquil. Grace wasn't made tranquil. Alain wasn't made tranquil. They spared Idunna. They do not make every mage who missteps tranquil, even mages who misstep in pretty damned big ways. Going on about how evil it is to contain the blood mage who can control minds makes you look like someone who is hopelessly biased and trying to find extra excuses to codnemn the templars.


[quote]
[quote] Deztyn...
A tranquil will be whipped if his merchandise disappears? We're talking about a society that executes people for stealing. This is mild by comparison, and not something that is unique to Templars.
[/quote]
Irrelevant.  The discussion is specifically about the situation faced by mages.  I'm not interested in trying to diminish the crimes committed against them by pointing to other people and saying "bad **** happens to them too!"
[/quote]

It's very relevant. It's not about bad **** happening to other people too. It's about considering the totality of the society these people live in before making a blanket condemnation of everyone and everything that offends you in it. Whipping someone for theft is bad. Executing someone for theft is worse. If you're not willing to look at the big picture, discussing any of this with you is pointless.

You're an Anders fan right? It's the difference between saying, "Anders blew up a building and killed a bunch of people!" and saying something like, "Anders blew up a building because he thinks it's the first step in liberating his people from the EBUL Chantry!"

Context matters.

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 07:50 .

[Silfren]

Deztyn wrote...

Finally, I think we see rather a lot of evidence in game suggesting that Elthina was willing to turn a blind eye to the abuses.  Endorsement does not have to be explicitly stated.

We have evidence of no such thing.

I'd planned on replying to you bit by bit, but this part right here just tells me there's no point.  We see time and again that Elthina is willing to disregard the suffering of mages in Kirkwall.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm I want some explanation on the matter of Redcliffe. How can the pro-mages be so incredibly hypocritical concering the Redcliffe incident?

The Redcliffe incident was the direct result of a mage child being home tutored, which would be a high probability in many of the ideal systems the pro-mages have proposed. Yet, still tehy want to blame this on the Chantry, for making the mother fear, losing her child.

In short. They want to curse the Chantry for taking the Child away, and they want to curse the Chantry for not taking the child away. Man up and face it, instead of your incessant squirming out of it. The Redcliffe incident is a terrible truth you will have to face, if the Circle system (or other forced boarding schools) aren't a reality. The Circle had no direct influence on the matter.

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

I was talking about mages feeling like they were cursed, Not teaching them about the demons out to get them is irresponsible. But, teaching them that demons are in the fade whenever they sleep waiting to possess the weak or stupid and turn them into monsters capable of destruction on a massive scale guarantees that some will see themselves as cursed.

We only hear Andrastian mages referring to themselves as cursed, and even Andrastians themselves refer to magic as a curse (as Knight-Commanders Greagoir and Meredith do).

Deztyn wrote...

City elves? Dalish elves? Casteless? Tevinter Slaves? These people are all mistreated in unique and special ways and lacking the ability to change their lots. They are all part of a larger society that sanctions their bad treatment. And Thedas on a whole is a very bleak place, even for people who are not part of those groups.

Derailing? The world they live in is important to the discussion. I find it cringe-worthy when people view the mage situation in total isolation and filtered through modern views of society that don't apply to Thedas.

No one said the situation wasn't bad for the casteless or the city elves. In fact, people have argued for supporting Bhelen as King because he gives the casteless freedoms and for Alistair as King because he places the Elder on the royal court, finally giving the city elves representation after centuries where they had none. However, this thread focuses on the plight of the mages.

Deztyn wrote...

Well I know Alistair was free to leave whenever he wanted-- wait. No. He had to be conscripted by Duncan. Templars on a whole are locked in from the moment they take their vows and start taking Lyrium. Poor templars, victims of the Chantry.

Warden Alistair thinks along those lines when you speak to him about how the Chantry makes the templars addicted to lyrium - he doesn't like what the Chantry does to the templars. In fact, given his background as a templar, he still thinks mages should be allowed to govern themselves, which is why he is protecting apostates from the templars and arguing in favor of the Magi boon several years after the Chantry said no.

Deztyn wrote...

And Ines the botanist didn't seem to be on a mission to save the world from darkspawn.

She was investigating a flower that can grow in Blighted land. I'd say that's extremely important given that the nation suffered from the Blight.

Deztyn wrote...

Neither was Wilhem.

You mean the enchanter who won his freedom because of his efforts (with Shale) in ending the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden?

Deztyn wrote...

Mages can and do get permission to leave the Circle and to be married. Wilhem even had kids.

Once again, Wilhelm gained his freedom, since Gaider has gone on record as saying Circle mages lose their children to the Chantry. Gaider has also said only some Circles permit marriages (since some Circles prohibit relationships), and even those still need to obtain permission.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm I want some explanation on the matter of Redcliffe. How can the pro-mages be so incredibly hypocritical concering the Redcliffe incident?

The Redcliffe incident was the direct result of a mage child being home tutored, which would be a high probability in many of the ideal systems the pro-mages have proposed. Yet, still tehy want to blame this on the Chantry, for making the mother fear, losing her child.

In short. They want to curse the Chantry for taking the Child away, and they want to curse the Chantry for not taking the child away. Man up and face it, instead of your incessant squirming out of it. The Redcliffe incident is a terrible truth you will have to face, if the Circle system (or other forced boarding schools) aren't a reality. The Circle had no direct influence on the matter.

No, the Redcliffe incident was the result of a mage being tutored at home by a mage not really qualified to teach because his mother knew that if his talent was discovered, he'd be taken away from her forever.  That is very specifically why that happened, and cannot be disregarded as irrelevant.  We are given zero reason to believe that Isolde would have gone to the lengths she did if she had not been afraid of losing her son.  Would it have happened if Isolde had had the option of sending her son to a school without having to worry that she'd never see him again, or by having a well qualified mage--someone like Wynne or Irving--be able to come to Redcliffe to tutor the boy?  Probably not.  Where you're getting from this that "they want to curse the Chantry for not taking the child away," is beyond me.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm I want some explanation on the matter of Redcliffe. How can the pro-mages be so incredibly hypocritical concering the Redcliffe incident?

The Redcliffe incident was the direct result of a mage child being home tutored, which would be a high probability in many of the ideal systems the pro-mages have proposed. Yet, still tehy want to blame this on the Chantry, for making the mother fear, losing her child.

In short. They want to curse the Chantry for taking the Child away, and they want to curse the Chantry for not taking the child away. Man up and face it, instead of your incessant squirming out of it. The Redcliffe incident is a terrible truth you will have to face, if the Circle system (or other forced boarding schools) aren't a reality. The Circle had no direct influence on the matter.

No, the Redcliffe incident was the result of a mage being tutored at home by a mage not really qualified to teach because his mother knew that if his talent was discovered, he'd be taken away from her forever.  That is very specifically why that happened, and cannot be disregarded as irrelevant.  We are given zero reason to believe that Isolde would have gone to the lengths she did if she had not been afraid of losing her son.  Would it have happened if Isolde had had the option of sending her son to a school without having to worry that she'd never see him again, or by having a well qualified mage--someone like Wynne or Irving--be able to come to Redcliffe to tutor the boy?  Probably not.  Where you're getting from this that "they want to curse the Chantry for not taking the child away," is beyond me.

The general view of your side is, that it is inhumane of the Chantry to "rip away the children of families", at the same time, you want to blame the Chantry for not having "ripped away" this particular child. That is hypocrisy. The Circle is not to blame for a woman's love of her child, or her fears. Eamon would still have gotten i'll if Conner had been sent to the Circle, Conner would probably still have heard of it, and he would probably still have made the same deal. The Circle has no blame in this incidence.
The only blame lies with a mage child, and his love for his father. If you want to point the finger further back, I can blame the Redcliffe incidence on the Tevinter Imperium! It is the one responsible for the anti-mage dogma! Surely it is to blame for the Redcliffe incidence!
See? That makes no sense. Nor does it make sense to blame the Circle, for something it is blameless of.

Instead you should accept, that an incidence like Redcliffe has a higher possibility to happen again, now that there is no Circles at all, and that home-tutoring is more likely to happen. Place the blame where it is due. That is all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

A thought just sprung to mind.
Is it actually possible not to complete Dissent, and have Ser Alrik survive to act III. Or does Anders just go kill him, off-screen?
Would be interesting to see if there is any noticeable difference in the Gallows if Alrik was allowed to live another three years.

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

And again. Some reforms were needed. But legally restricting a class of people who can blow things up with their minds or become abominations is not objectively evil.

Treating them as sub-human, stripping them of their humanity in the Rite of Tranquility, and killing an entire population of men, women, and children in an act of genocide for something they had nothing to do with could be considered evil.

Deztyn wrote...

Two sadists and their mobs. The victim of one of those sadists states he's not supposed to tell or he'll get tranquiled. Why threaten him into silence if the abuse he endures is being explicitly or implicitly allowed?

The issue is that it happens in an enviornment where mages are fairly powerless because the Chantry treats them with scorn and as people who are cursed. Who did Karl have to turn to when he was going to be made tranquil illegally? We have one mage in the courtyard who mutters to herself that Ser Alrik is going to make her tranquil illegally. The Knight-Commander goes so far as to become dictator of Kirkwall after the death of the Viscount and install templars in the Viscount's Keep as a sign of her authority.

Deztyn wrote...

We have evidence of no such thing.

Hawke can tell Grand Cleric Elthina about the misuse of her name in the kidnapping of the Qunari delegates, for instance, and she does nothing, so we do have evidence that she's doing nothing. Elthina doesn't do anything to stop Meredith from becoming the dictator of Kirkwall, either.

Deztyn wrote...


Mages do have rights. And they're supposed to have a First Enchanter who can work with the Knight-Commander to see that their rights aren't being trampled on. Kirkwall fails as much do to Orsino's incompetence as it does from Meredith's.

The mages have some privleges that are afforded to them depending on the respective Circle of Magi they are in, but they don't have rights.

Deztyn wrote...

There is no getting away from Idunna's actions themselves. You can't divorce the punishment someone receives for a crime from the crime itself. Idunna has the power to control people's minds. She controls peoples minds. Their minds. Sure they could have made her tranquil for her crimes. She wasn't made tranquil. Grace wasn't made tranquil. Alain wasn't made tranquil.

Hawke can speak to protect Alain, the Circle mages, and the renegade templars who sided with Ser Thrask from execution. Cullen doesn't seem to be aware of the fact that Alain knows blood magic. There's no evidence that the templars knew Grace was capable of blood magic, and we see that she was an abomination when Hawke finally faces her. As for Idunna, we don't know if Hawke revealed that she was capable of performing blood magic, or if he merely revealed she was an illegal mage.

Deztyn wrote...

It's very relevant. It's not about bad **** happening to other people too. It's about considering the totality of the society these people live in before making a blanket condemnation of everyone and everything that offends you in it. Whipping someone for theft is bad. Executing someone for theft is worse. If you're not willing to look at the big picture, discussing any of this with you is pointless.

Stealing from the Crown is a crime punishable by death, while the theit would get flogged otherwise (as Seneschal Varel says to the acting Arl of Amarathine). Besides that, addressing the problems with the Chantry controlled Circles shouldn't be dismissed simply because other groups have it bad as well.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 mai 2011 - 08:18 .

[erilben]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Now let me put it simply. The First Enchanter could, be considered the "Arl" of the Circle. He is the final authority in the case of punishments towards the mages. And just like any other Arl, he can place any punishment he wishes on the mages, despite the severity of the crime. This of course works both ways. However, at the risk of the RoA, a First Enchanter would enver let a severe crime pass unpunished.

Besides the fact that we know Knight-Commander Greagoir signed the Rite against Jowan and there's no proof that First Enchanter Irving had any say over the matter (including when he explicitly states he had no say over the matter), why do you keep professing the First Enchanter has some say over the Rite of Tranquility when everything we have been shown so far contradicts this?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If Karl's case had been put before Meredith and Orsino, and that they decided on using the Rite on him, it would have been fully legal, if somewhat harsh.

There's no evidence the First Enchanter has any say over the Rite of Tranquility, particularly when Irving says that if it was up to him Jowan wouldn't be made tranquil.

According to Lily, Irving is the one that signs it. "I saw the document on Greagoir's table. It authorized the Rite on Jowan, and Irving had signed it."

Irving seems to be force into it though: "Greagoir says he has proof-- and eyewitness testimony-- that Jowan has been practicing blood magic. I cannot say more. Were it left to me, things might be different. But the Chantry... I'm sorry child. This Rite of Tranquility will happen." (There's a VO note-He's tired of the Chantry strong-arming the Circle around but he can do nothing about it.)

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The general view of your side is, that it is inhumane of the Chantry to "rip away the children of families", at the same time, you want to blame the Chantry for not having "ripped away" this particular child. That is hypocrisy. The Circle is not to blame for a woman's love of her child, or her fears. Eamon would still have gotten i'll if Conner had been sent to the Circle, Conner would probably still have heard of it, and he would probably still have made the same deal. The Circle has no blame in this incidence.
The only blame lies with a mage child, and his love for his father. If you want to point the finger further back, I can blame the Redcliffe incidence on the Tevinter Imperium! It is the one responsible for the anti-mage dogma! Surely it is to blame for the Redcliffe incidence!
See? That makes no sense. Nor does it make sense to blame the Circle, for something it is blameless of.

Instead you should accept, that an incidence like Redcliffe has a higher possibility to happen again, now that there is no Circles at all, and that home-tutoring is more likely to happen. Place the blame where it is due. That is all.

What the hell?  When and where did anyone say they blamed the Chantry for not taking Connor away?  I've never said that, I've never read anyone else say that. What I have read is what I've said already about having the Circles available as schools rather than prisons. 

You talking about Eamon having gotten ill and all that nonsense is irrelevant and not set in stone even if it were.  Loghain was provided with the opportunity to poison Eamon thorugh Isolde's search for an apostate to train her son.  

The only one not making sense here is you.  If the Circles had existed as schools, not prisons, and people didn't risk losing their children completely, then the odds are far, far against the situation in Redcliffe happening to begin with.

[EmperorSahlertz]

erilben wrote...

According to Lily, Irving is the one that signs it. "I saw the document on Greagoir's table. It authorized the Rite on Jowan, and Irving had signed it."

Oh snap!

erilben wrote...

Irving seems to be force into it though: "Greagoir says he has proof-- and eyewitness testimony-- that Jowan has been practicing blood magic. I cannot say more. Were it left to me, things might be different. But the Chantry... I'm sorry child. This Rite of Tranquility will happen." (There's a VO note-He's tired of the Chantry strong-arming the Circle around but he can do nothing about it.)

And once again, I was proven right. Thank you.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And once again, I was proven right. Thank you.

Once again? Didn't you claim there was no lore to disprove the claim that demons taught blood magic?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than gameplay mechanics we have yet to see any blood magic be taught. The original way to unlock it was through a demon, in DA:A it was through a book merely for convenience's sake. So far, we got the lore stating Blood Magic is taught by demons, and nothing to disprove it.

The lore doesn't agree with you because the Old Gods codex states:

"Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men. The Archon Thalsian, first of the Magisters, who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught to him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an Empire. In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with imperial power."

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The general view of your side is, that it is inhumane of the Chantry to "rip away the children of families", at the same time, you want to blame the Chantry for not having "ripped away" this particular child. That is hypocrisy. The Circle is not to blame for a woman's love of her child, or her fears. Eamon would still have gotten i'll if Conner had been sent to the Circle, Conner would probably still have heard of it, and he would probably still have made the same deal. The Circle has no blame in this incidence.
The only blame lies with a mage child, and his love for his father. If you want to point the finger further back, I can blame the Redcliffe incidence on the Tevinter Imperium! It is the one responsible for the anti-mage dogma! Surely it is to blame for the Redcliffe incidence!
See? That makes no sense. Nor does it make sense to blame the Circle, for something it is blameless of.

Instead you should accept, that an incidence like Redcliffe has a higher possibility to happen again, now that there is no Circles at all, and that home-tutoring is more likely to happen. Place the blame where it is due. That is all.

What the hell?  When and where did anyone say they blamed the Chantry for not taking Connor away?  I've never said that, I've never read anyone else say that. What I have read is what I've said already about having the Circles available as schools rather than prisons. 

You talking about Eamon having gotten ill and all that nonsense is irrelevant and not set in stone even if it were.  Loghain was provided with the opportunity to poison Eamon thorugh Isolde's search for an apostate to train her son.  

The only one not making sense here is you.  If the Circles had existed as schools, not prisons, and people didn't risk losing their children completely, then the odds are far, far against the situation in Redcliffe happening to begin with.

Had it not been Jowan, it would have been a maid. There are enough oppertunities to plant an assassin/spy within a Castle. Loghain says as much iirc.

ANd yet you blame the Circles for the entire incidence. You claim that it is their fault for planting the seed of fear within Isolde, and that it is their own fault that she didn't send Conner. First of all it is unreasonable to blame the Circle, becasue if they had known, they would have taken Conner, and wouldn't give a damn about Isolde's protests. Second of all, the fears of Isolde are her own. The Circle is not responsible for Isolde's own irrational fears, especially since she would be allowed to see Conner again.
It is simply wrong to blame the Circle for this incidence, since it had no direct influence on it. It has some indirect influences, sure. But to blame it for that, is just becasue you want to, and isn't based in reason or logic.

Redcliffe is the perfect example of what you want. Mages tutoring mages in the home of the apprentices in comfortable surroundings. Yet it goes horribly wrong.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And once again, I was proven right. Thank you.

Once again? Didn't you claim there was no lore to disprove the claim that demons taught blood magic?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than gameplay mechanics we have yet to see any blood magic be taught. The original way to unlock it was through a demon, in DA:A it was through a book merely for convenience's sake. So far, we got the lore stating Blood Magic is taught by demons, and nothing to disprove it.

The lore doesn't agree with you because the Old Gods codex states:

"Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men. The Archon Thalsian, first of the Magisters, who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught to him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an Empire. In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with imperial power."

Did or didn't Irving sign the papers?
And since when did you start use Chantry dogma as proof? Seems this is a day of change. You, who before have been so quick to cry foul the moment "Chantry Scholar", "Revered Mother" or "Divine" was included as the author of the source. And now you use it to support your own view. I personally can't even find the codex entry specfically referring to Dumat teaching Blood Magic.