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[TEWR]

you sleep the whole day away and you have 5 pages to sift through.

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If Elthina does not realize what is happening in the course of 7 years, while apparently everyone in Kirkwall does (hence the sympathy with mages), then Elthina should really, *really*, just retire and take a vacation.

Turning a blind eye to abuses, I could understand in terms of expedience and necessity. But not even knowing? That's worse.

I'm specifically talking about the rapes and the illegal tranquil, and the assertion that there's "a lot of evidence in game" that Elthina ignored it. Not the morally questionable, but mostly legal actions that Orsino and most of the mage supporters in universe protest. There is also a difference between knowing that abuses go on and knowing enough to specifically say, "Hi Ser Alrik how many mages have you raped and tranquilled today?"

Silfren wrote...

If you want to dismiss it as nothing more than game mechanics, that's up to you. I don't. And even so, I still would find it very difficult to believe that the Grand Cleric could have utterly no clue about the things going on around her for the seven years we see. Either way, if she disapproves, why the hell doesn't she step in to do something? Oh, wait, because getting the Knight Commander to be less oppressive equates to taking sides and that would be bad for Kirkwall. Oh, and it's the Maker's job, too, rather than hers.

When have I denied that Meredith was oppressive or that Elthina was incompetent? I take issue with you stating as a fact that Elthina ignored the rape and illegal tranquilling of mages. There's no proof. There's no evidence. It's an assumption. I said as much. You got snippy and decided nothing else I said was worth acknowledging.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Using that logic Hawke him/herself is okay with the abuse because he/she never does anything to stop it. Using that logic you can blame nearly everyone in Hawke's party for the situation in Kirkwall. They all knew what was happening (Anders certainly ranted about it enough) and did nothing to stop it. 

Which is merely an example of the game breaking immersion too often.  Because my Hawke would have been doing quite a bit all along to help the mages.  DA2 is rather difficult to get into role playing mode since there's so many things you would or wouldn't do if only the choices were available.  It's ridiculous that a pro-mage Hawke would just let Elthina spout her nonsense and walk away without an argument.  I'm sure there are pro-Templar immersion breakers as well - such as not being able to kill Grace while she's standing next to Decimus and the other mages who attack unprovoked.

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...

Anyway there wasn't only Eltina in chantry , there was a mass of people inside. But so desperate is warranted. Thank you for this philosophy.

I was beaten by my father, I'm desperate, I will kill lots of people in the street with a gun. My mother has done nothing for me, She never try to stop my father, i killed her. blah blah blah

But I understand it is justified. It's the fault of my father, he made ​​me an animal, no it's not murder.

Meredith it is a form of terrorism with the roa. And Anders no, it's really interesting.

Anders is a freedom fighter of course. Very interesting.

Tell us again how you're neutral.  It'll be fun.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think that the Chantry and the templars would see Anders as a villain, and I can imagine some mages would view him as a hero.

Anyone with the sense to see the Chantry for what it really is.  I want to make him a medal out of Osama bin Meredith's skull.

Silfren wrote...

I didn't make an absolutist statement, given that the quote you refer to was addressing Elthina.  I added to that post for clarity's sake, just FYI.  And sorry, not apologizing for the reading comprehension bit.  I've had it to death with people twisting my words, putting words in my mouth, and making disingenuous arguments based on things I haven't said, and now I'm adding the need to ignore context and be pedantic to the list.

Maddening, isn't it?  Sympathies.  =/  That's why I don't even read some posters anymore.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan wasn't trained to instruct a child on the use of his abilities, and Connor didn't even know that the Desire Demon was a demon. He wasn't armed with knowledge against demons because he was ignorant of the real dangers that they posed.

The analogy I like to use is "Connor was a kid who climbed into a rusty van that had 'FREE CANDY' written on a cardboard sign because he didn't know any better."   The great majority of abominations and blood mages we encounter in both games are the result of the Chantry's heavy-handed rules.  Either mages that couldn't get proper training, or ones that had been caught but were desperate for freedom.  Even the oft-quoted Uldred and Decimus just wanted the same freedom every born without a "curse" gets.  They weren't fighting for slavery or trying to steal a throne, they just wanted out from under the Chantry's bootheel.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

No, but I agree with you Lobsell. That's why I say you're the one consistent in your indictment and what you say. Absolutism who some show work against their argument. They seem much less credible to judge the Templars. No excuse me, not at all credible.

I'm neutral, but I am more in favor of the Magi in Thedas. If the decision is I'm with the templar in the end it's more because I thought Kirkwall was cursed. If it was simply because the act of Anders, I would never have taken the decision to help Meredith.

The Band of Three entries address that Kirkwall is hardly an ideal place for mages because the Tevinters made the Veil very thin, which could explain why abominations can be summoned near Kirkwall. I'm not certain if the presence of Xebenkeck and Hybris adds to this, but the way I see it, Hawke protecting the mages from Meredith means that they are going to escape Kirkwall to places where the Tevinter didn't mess around with the Fade to create a proverbial Hellmouth.

Sylvianus wrote...

Chantry and Kirkwall' people would see Anders as a villain. Eltina was loved, and there are people inside the chantry. I think also that in many believers countries, some people car be angry. But yeah mages could see him as a hero by mages.

I'd assume it would likely be the Resolutionists if anyone, but he's a complicated character so he's going to elicit different responses from different people. A pro-mage Hawke seems to be a hero of the mages overall.

[Sylvianus]

Rifneno wrote...

Tell us again how you're neutral.  It'll be fun.

And yet That's what I have been since the first time I posted. In case you do not know, Hawke was forced to choose sides. Most people are neutral and didn't like being forced to choose.

I chose the Templars by default, not because I was with them.

You think I am pro-templar because I do not think they are all bad, because I think their decision against a threat that I thank proved (no relation to the Magi) is justified. That's it.

But from an extremist pro mage, I do not expect to be understood. I will never seek approval from those who show absolutism and blindly.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 10 mai 2011 - 11:24 .

[Deztyn]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...
I still don't buy the "they HAVE to steal children!" stuff.[/quote]

Then what? Home schooling? Logistical nightmare. How would it work?

[quote]
We don't know how long the tiny room with no light thing was going on.  [/quote]

It's implied to have started sometime between Act II and III, so post idol. But how loony Meredith actually is at this point is debatable.

[quote]
[quote]
Of course it's bad, but is it bad by the standards of Thedas? The commoner humans, the elves, the casteless, the grey wardens, they all live in a world of full of bad. I'd like things to be better all around, but if we reinvent the entire society from the ground up we're not talking about the world of Dragon Age anymore.
[/quote]

And?  It's okay to let horrific things happen if there's other horrific things happening?  Should we let drunk drivers off the hook because there's murderers out there?[/quote]

No. But if the laws of the land allow people to drive drunk, you shouldn't be surprised when someone swerving all over the highway isn't pulled over.

[quote]
Thrask says flat out that Karras is one of Meredith's clique.  Yes, I do blame her for his actions because given what a goddamn monster she is I flat out refuse to believe the two monsters bonded over their love of mint tea and not oppression and abuse.[/quote]

I suspect they bonded over a mutual fear and hatred of magic. I'm sure Merry likes that Karras has a certain ruthlessness and will do anything to eliminate the threat of loose mages. I'm less sure that Meredith would support his nightly visits to Alain.

[quote]There were blood mages even in Ferelden's "wonderful" Circle.  Quite a few of them from the looks of it.  Even the Chantry admits blood magic isn't inherently evil.  Regardless, a conspiracy doesn't retro-justify (thanks for that word, Silfren!) her atrocities.  There's a conspiracy BECAUSE she's a monster, not the other way around.[/quote]

I never said it did justify it. I said that when we finally get to know Meredith she was paranoid, but didn't seem like a complete and total lunatic... until she did.

[quote]
[quote]
Not completely isolated. No. But I was pointing out that most of the outright abuse we hear about in game is attributed to them. Equating all templars to those two is as bad as thinking all mages are Huan or Denarius. Templars aren't evil by default. Just like mages aren't. But there's guaranteed to be a few bastards among them simply because they're people.[/quote]

True most of the abuse we see is attributed to them, but how many named templars do we meet?[/quote]

Off the top of my head? Aside from Meredith, Alrik and Karras we have: Cullen, Varnell (Bastard), Carver, Moira, Raxley, Ruvena, Hugh, Agatha, Mettin (another bastard), Keran, Emeric and Thrask. Does Wilmod count? He's technically an abomination when we meet him, but Cullen described him as a friend to mages.

[quote]
[quote]
We don't know what's included in that order. "Look at all this (manufactured) evidence of this woman dealing with demons, consorting with Resolutionists and sacrificing innocent kittens to false gods. We must take steps to limit the danger." Or just "Tranquil her now please so I can sex her up. Kthx." I suspect it's something like the first.
[/quote]

Doesn't make much difference really.  If his superiors don't bother to verify anything, they're still guilty.[/quote]

Perhaps. Even the most sophisticated legal systems get it wrong. But I don't think we know enough either way.

[quote]

When asked if he supports it he avoids answering the question and says "there's an argument to be made for applying the use of tranquility more widely" and then indignantly adds, "but many mages have shown they view the ritual as no better then death; they want no controls on them at all."  Apparently not wanting to have your soul stolen is the same thing as not wanting any controls on them at all.[/quote]

I'm familiar with the conversation. Cullen supports the Rite, but he doesn't say he supports the Tranquil Solution.

[quote]Seriously, I want to muderknife Cullen.[/quote]

You wound me.

Cullen is <3
[quote]
[quote]
Violent reform will be difficult in a culture that still revers Andraste and the Maker. With mages at the head of such a revolution a new Imperium is almost a given if they win.
[/quote]

People's morals on things like slavery are in very large part based on the society they were raised in.  These mages grew up in a society that condemns slavery and I'm fairly certain most of them will retain that standard.  Unless you mean simply that mages will end up ruling.  That's a possibility, if authorities fight tooth and nail to deny them their rights and they're forced to take their authority away.  That's MUCH better than the current system of Chantry rule though.  I view Chantry rule as only slightly better than the Imperium really.[/quote]

The bolded. It's not so much about authorities denying them rights, and them fighting against it. I was responding to your suggestion that total destruction of the Chantry was in order. The majority wouldn't stand for it. Maybe if there was a significant enough schism that a new Cult of Andraste could replace the existing Chantry. But total elimination? Not likely.

And the Imperium? Honestly, Chantry rule isn't that bad. They're not all innocent little church ladies, but they're not all Petrice either.

[quote]
Since a single isolated case is compelling proof, I'd like to note that after Best Served Cold, Keran can be found in Lowtown saying he's left the Order until Meredith is gone.[/quote]

Proof that mages aren't the only ones who lack choices? It is indeed. 
Wonder how long Keran has before the withdrawal sets in.

[quote]
Mages do have rights. And they're supposed to have a First Enchanter who can work with the Knight-Commander to see that their rights aren't being trampled on. Kirkwall fails as much do to Orsino's incompetence as it does from Meredith's.

[quote]You mean the guy who was afraid to leave the Gallows in Act 3 because he was afraid Meredith would use "you weren't here, so you must've been with them" as a reason to punish him with Thrask's rebels?  Somehow I doubt he had all that much power.[/quote]
[/quote]

He didn't.

That's why he was incompetent.

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
I'm specifically talking about the rapes and the illegal tranquil, and the assertion that there's "a lot of evidence in game" that Elthina ignored it. Not the morally questionable, but mostly legal actions that Orsino and most of the mage supporters in universe protest. There is also a difference between knowing that abuses go on and knowing enough to specifically say, "Hi Ser Alrik how many mages have you raped and tranquilled today?"

Ser Alrik sent her not one, but two letters specifically telling her that he wants to tranquilize all mages.

Now I don't know about you, but that's the kind of person I'd keep an eye on. If I tolerate his existence at all. 

If Elthina heard about those abuses, which apparently everyone in Kirkwall did, then she should lead an investigation. Actually do her job. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 mai 2011 - 11:26 .

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8,

I can never decide if you sincerely misunderstand or are just trolling to push your agenda.

Do you think the fact that mages are at great risk of demonic possession is a blessing that every mage will embrace?

[TJPags]

I've decided it's much more fun to simply read this thread than participate in it.

I find it extremely amusing. Helps me unwind after a long day at work.

[Ryzaki]

Wait...Alrik sent the letter twice?

I thought it was only once but the second time he was *gonna* send it but was killed before he could.

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ser Alrik sent her not one, but two letters specifically telling her that he wants to tranquilize all mages.

Now I don't know about you, but that's the kind of person I'd keep an eye on. If I tolerate his existence at all. 

If Elthina heard about those abuses, which apparently everyone in Kirkwall did, then she should lead an investigation. Actually do her job. 

Elthina is incompetent.

But knowing about Alrik's lovely idea isn't the same as having proof that Alrik has already been putting his plan into action. And we don't know how many mages have actually been made tranquil wrongly. Anders thinks 12 new tranquil in a year is horrific, but we also know that Kirkwall has always had a higher failure rate than other Circles. And if Alrik can 'prove' that those mages needed to be made tranquil. . . .

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 mai 2011 - 11:45 .

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8,

I can never decide if you sincerely misunderstand or are just trolling to push your agenda.

Do you think the fact that mages are at great risk of demonic possession is a blessing that every mage will embrace?

I don't think it's trolling to disagree with you, Deztyn. You'll have to excuse me if I don't agree with the idea that mages are cursed.

Some people don't like their lot in life, which leads to depression and suicide. I think it would be the same for mages as well.

[Rifneno]

Sylvianus wrote...

And yet That's what I have been since the first time I posted. In case you do not know, Hawke was forced to choose sides. Most people are neutral and didn't like being forced to choose.

I chose the Templars by default, not because I was with them.

You think I am pro-templar because I do not think they are all bad, because I think their decision against a threat that I thank proved (no relation to the Magi) is justified. That's it.

But from an extremist pro mage, I do not expect to be understood. I will never seek approval from those who show absolutism and blindly.

So you're neutral, except when you're not.  Sure, whatever you say.  I'd still rather be an extremist than the guy everyone laughs at for excusing severe crimes on the basis of age.

Deztyn wrote...

Then what? Home schooling? Logistical nightmare. How would it work?

I guess it depends upon the rarity of mages how common the schools would be.  We don't know if it's a 1 in 20 thing or a 1 in 5,000 thing.  I suppose it's envitable some people would be too far away from one and wouldn't be able to temporarily relocate, but the majority would not have to lose their children.  So yeah, I'll conceed that a rare case of temporarily losing one's children would occasionally occur, but it's not nearly the necessity that the Chantry makes it out to be.

No. But if the laws of the land allow people to drive drunk, you shouldn't be surprised when someone swerving all over the highway isn't pulled over.

True.  But the fact other peoples are oppressed is no reason that this people should be.  I'm completely in favor of most of the groups you mentioned fighting for their rights (not so sure about the Dalish honestly).  If the game showed us the plight of the casteless and opened a door for them to fight for their rights, I'd be totally in support of that too.  Society will never advance in terms of equality if nobody's allowed to make the first step because it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the oppressed.

I suspect they bonded over a mutual fear and hatred of magic. I'm sure Merry likes that Karras has a certain ruthlessness and will do anything to eliminate the threat of loose mages. I'm less sure that Meredith would support his nightly visits to Alain.

Perhaps.  It's also possible that since they don't think of them as people, they don't really care about the abuses because it's not like it's people suffering.

You wound me.

 

I'd certainly like to wound Cullen.

The bolded. It's not so much about authorities denying them rights, and them fighting against it. I was responding to your suggestion that total destruction of the Chantry was in order. The majority wouldn't stand for it. Maybe if there was a significant enough schism that a new Cult of Andraste could replace the existing Chantry. But total elimination? Not likely.

Ahh, miswording on my part.  I think the Chantry needs to lose its military power.  If people still want to worship some OGB that an archon torched a millenia ago, that's fine.  Basically what happened with the real crusades.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wait...Alrik sent the letter twice?

I thought it was only once but the second time he was *gonna* send it but was killed before he could.

He sent it at least once because we are told that Elthina turned down his request.

[Sylvianus]

So you're neutral, except when you're not. Sure, whatever you say. I'd still rather be an extremist than the guy everyone laughs at for excusing severe crimes on the basis of age.

Not everyone, only children who misunderstood what it was said, Just a few people nervous..

[TEWR]

Deztyn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ser Alrik sent her not one, but two letters specifically telling her that he wants to tranquilize all mages.

Now I don't know about you, but that's the kind of person I'd keep an eye on. If I tolerate his existence at all. 

If Elthina heard about those abuses, which apparently everyone in Kirkwall did, then she should lead an investigation. Actually do her job. 

Elthina is incompetent.

But knowing about Alrik's lovely idea isn't the same as having proof that Alrik has already been putting his plan into action. And we don't know how many mages have actually been made tranquil wrongly. Anders thinks 12 new tranquil in a year is horrific, but we also know that Kirkwall has always had a higher failure rate than other Circles. And if Alrik can 'prove' that those mages needed to be made tranquil. . . .

There was at least one Tranquil who was made Tranquil just because she and an elven mage were once intimate. That isn't grounds for the RoT. If it was, Wynne would've been made Tranquil.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
Which is merely an example of the game breaking immersion too often.  Because my Hawke would have been doing quite a bit all along to help the mages.  DA2 is rather difficult to get into role playing mode since there's so many things you would or wouldn't do if only the choices were available.  It's ridiculous that a pro-mage Hawke would just let Elthina spout her nonsense and walk away without an argument.  I'm sure there are pro-Templar immersion breakers as well - such as not being able to kill Grace while she's standing next to Decimus and the other mages who attack unprovoked.

...The plot shield was strong with that one. *grumbles* 

GavrielKay wrote...

He sent it at least once because we are told that Elthina turned down his request.

Yeah...I'm just wondering where twice came from. 

[Sylvianus]

So you're neutral, except when you're not

When i'm not ?
Tell me. i'm curious;

Because i disagree with terrorism or murder ? Do not make me laught bro.

The justification for killing is done in relation to a threat, not the nature of the threat.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 11 mai 2011 - 12:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Huh...my neutral Hawke sided with the templars.

Because A. He didn't want to be killed by psycho Meredith (that didn't turn out to well)
B. He didn't want to side with mages and get slaughtered by templars (that worked out)
and C. He did not feel like dragging the day out any longer than necessary.

[Ryzaki]

edit

DAMN YOU DP. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 12:12 .

[Sylvianus]

Excuse me I forgot Rifelno. As you're not very good at reading and understanding. I explain it to you before you distorts my words.

That means, in relation to facts, I decided to destroy what I saw as a threat. If I believed that the Templars were more a threat for the people, I would have attacked them.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 11 mai 2011 - 12:16 .

[Sylvianus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh...my neutral Hawke sided with the templars.

Because A. He didn't want to be killed by psycho Meredith (that didn't turn out to well)
B. He didn't want to side with mages and get slaughtered by templars (that worked out)
and C. He did not feel like dragging the day out any longer than necessary.

Is it possible to be neutral and sided with the templars ? Hu ? It's weird !

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan wasn't trained to instruct a child on the use of his abilities, and Connor didn't even know that the Desire Demon was a demon. He wasn't armed with knowledge against demons because he was ignorant of the real dangers that they posed.

And Jowan had only trained Conner for a few weeks iirc. I doubt, the very first thing you teach a little child is the terrible dangers of the Fade.

Why not? Mages can enter the Fade awake, after all. If Jowan knew how to be a proper instructor, he would have realized this, and Connor would have known what a demon was.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet we have at least a millennia of free mages in the kingdom of Rivain, centuries of free mages with the Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders, and over a millennia of mages with the Dalish - ranging from the kingdom of Arlathan to the nation of the Dales and even among the nomadic clans walking across Thedas. Wouldn't these societies have fallen if it was impossible to train mages without Chantry controlled Circles?

They would have fallen no more, thana  nation would after experience hurricane season.

And again, you presume an aweful lot. How exactly do you know, and I want hard data, right now, how do you know those mages are free.

The witches and seers of the kingdom of Rivain aren't under Chantry or templar control, which we know from the Bioware Blog codex:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish Keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

The Chasind Wilders and the Avvar tribes are lead by Shamans (and the Chasind even celebrate Flemeth because their history teaches that she originally taught the Shaman to wield magic), and the Dalish are lead by Keepers and respect magic because it was part of their history during the time of Arlathan (and we know from Aneirin the Healer that the clans can have more than two mages). According to Merrill, "Magic is a gift of the Creators. Why wouldn't we use it? It just seems... wasteful for humans to lock their mages away where they can't do any good."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And I mean truely free. Like in go wherever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want. Where is your data? What are you basing it on. The Dalish mages certainly aren't. They are bound to their clans, as the clans are to them.

You mean like Aneirin the Healer, who could leave the clan to be alone with his thoughts? Also, we see that Merrill could leave the clan, and Velanna could leave her clan as well.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are bound by their responsibility to their clans. And even then, they aren't free to choose where they will be apprenticed. Merrill didn't choose.

She was a small child (roughly 4 years old).

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She was taken from her parents at a young age, to serve as Marethari's first.
We got nothing on any of the other cultures you stated. You are simply using your own conjectures as proof of free mages.

We do have information, but it sounds like you dislike the information that's presented to us about the Avvar and the Chasind because their mages aren't locked up by the templars, and their societies have remained for many centuries regardless.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We don't know squat about how they trained their mages in the Dales or Arlathan. Nor do we know how they do train them in Rivain or amongst the Chasind and Avvars.

That doesn't change that we know Arlathan existed, and we know from Witch Hunt that at least some of them were mages. The nation of the Dales was lead by mages, and they had a stable society until the Exalted March that the Chantry declared against them. And we know the Avvar and the Chasind have mages in their societies, and that they don't view magic as a curse because they are lead by Shamans and the Chasind even celebrate Flemeth, according to The Chasind Wilders codex: "There are many tales of these shamans having learned their magic from the 'Witches of the Wilds,' witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even if there is no definitive proof they exist. In particular, the tale of Flemeth, the greatest witch of the wilds, is celebrated amongst all tribes."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is fairly easy to call you on baseless speculation.

Why do you have such a problem with the fact that there are free mages living in societies outside of Chantry and templar rule?

[TEWR]

Lob is right EmperorSahlertz. We have all kinds of info telling us that other societies where mages aren't kept under close watch and locked away are stable. You do seem to be refusing these things as fact.