4350 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No no they didn't. They claimed so. I proved them wrong too. It doesn't fit. It wont ever fit. And it wouldn't hold in court. It would fit mass murders (if the killings were unlawful that is) and purging. Not genocide.

Only in your own mind.  KoP posted the legal definitions and steps to genocide and the Right of Annulment fits like a glove.

-Polaris

UN definition in particular did not fit at all. There were ONE which was close to fit, too bad it would require it to be murders, and since the killings done during an Annulment, isn't murder, not even that definition works.

The Circle system as a whole is a lot closer to genocide than the Annulment.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No no they didn't. They claimed so. I proved them wrong too. It doesn't fit. It wont ever fit. And it wouldn't hold in court. It would fit mass murders (if the killings were unlawful that is) and purging. Not genocide.

Only in your own mind.  KoP posted the legal definitions and steps to genocide and the Right of Annulment fits like a glove.

-Polaris

UN definition in particular did not fit at all. There were ONE which was close to fit, too bad it would require it to be murders, and since the killings done during an Annulment, isn't murder, not even that definition works.

The Circle system as a whole is a lot closer to genocide than the Annulment.

Like I said, only in your own mind.  I invite everyone to look it up yourselves.  It fits.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No no they didn't. They claimed so. I proved them wrong too. It doesn't fit. It wont ever fit. And it wouldn't hold in court. It would fit mass murders (if the killings were unlawful that is) and purging. Not genocide.

Only in your own mind.  KoP posted the legal definitions and steps to genocide and the Right of Annulment fits like a glove.

-Polaris

UN definition in particular did not fit at all. There were ONE which was close to fit, too bad it would require it to be murders, and since the killings done during an Annulment, isn't murder, not even that definition works.

The Circle system as a whole is a lot closer to genocide than the Annulment.

Like I said, only in your own mind.  I invite everyone to look it up yourselves.  It fits.

-Polaris

Uhm.. No it really doesn't. I think the one in denial here is actually you. I have read volumes on this particular subject, and I can guarentee you. The Annulment does not fit the description of Genocide.
The Circle system comes clsoe to fitting. However even then it isn't really genocide.
Being a close fit is not enough to be qualified as genocide. It has to be unrefutable.

[IanPolaris]

From UN Assembly Resolution 260 via Wiki:

[quote]Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as
[quote]
...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[3][/quote]
[/quote]
Given that mages throughout the Dragon Age series are treated and are identified both by themselves and by society at large as a seperate ETHNIC/RACIAL group, it's extremely plain to see that the Right of Annulment does qualify.  Destroying a racial/ethnic group in a specific location or nation (Kirkwall/Bosnia/Rwanda) still qualifies as Genocide...or at least the Hague thinks so.

-Polaris[/quote]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 mai 2011 - 01:47 .

[Kenny Lim]

Connor
- kid
- barely knew any magic
- no templar was hunting him
- killed nearly everyone in redcliffe

Kirkwall mages
- adults, they know their potential
- templar pressure
- don't need me to say how bad things will go...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Polaris: It also bothers you that people don't believe 'genocide' definitely takes place in every pro-templar endgame for some reason.

Somehow that got *me* labelled as morally wrong.

Yes. because words have meaning, and the Right of Annulment is most definately gencide by the literal definition of the term.

Call it what it is.

-Polaris

*facepalm*

I don't care if the RoA is genocide or not, nor was I ever debating that.

I was questioning if it 100% definitely takes place in the pro-Templar ending of DA2.

I already know your stance on this and I suspect it will never budge, so no need to reiterate.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 03 mai 2011 - 02:00 .

[IanPolaris]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Polaris: It also bothers you that people don't believe 'genocide' definitely takes place in every pro-templar endgame for some reason.

Somehow that got *me* labelled as morally wrong.

Yes. because words have meaning, and the Right of Annulment is most definately gencide by the literal definition of the term.

Call it what it is.

-Polaris

*facepalm*

I don't care if the RoA is genocide or not, nor was I ever debating that.

I was questioning if it 100% definitely takes place in the pro-Templar ending of DA2.

I already know your stance on this and I suspect it will never budge, so no need to reiterate.

Even if the three mages ARE spared in the end and aren't made tranquil (a point I will not conceed and a piont that seems contraindicated by the WoG), it's still genocide by the above definition.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

Everypony needs to admit that the templars have the right of it at the end. emredith may go off her rocker, but that doesn't include all of the templars. Anypony can see that the instant you so much as look at a mage wrong, they become an abomination.

Not to mention that whatever magic mages use, it isn't real magic. Friendship is the real magic and mages have no friends. So mages are using magic that no self respecting pony would ever use.

[CaptainZaysh]

Oho! Polaris, are we to take it you've revised your position on the genocide of the quarians as carried out by the geth? Last time I checked, you were saying that didn't count as genocide because some refugees made it out.

You surely can't believe that annulling one Circle qualifies under the Hague definition, but wiping out more than 99% of a civilian population spread across several planets doesn't?

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 03 mai 2011 - 02:39 .

[Beerfish]

People can shove the situation into any definition they wish and us any word to describe the situation that they wish. Want to call the annulment genocide? Be my guest. I am in favor of the genocide of the mages in this circle in this situation.

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Oho! Polaris, are we to take it you've revised your position on the genocide of the quarians as carried out by the geth? Last time I checked, you were saying that didn't count as genocide because some refugees made it out.

You surely can't believe that annulling one Circle qualifies under the Hague definition, but wiping out more than 99% of a civilian population spread across several planets doesn't?

Read the definition and you'll find that you have it topsy turvey.  The Quarians were the ones guilty of attempted Genocide.  There is no evidence that the Geth tried to systematically wipe out quarians.  The fact that 99% died does not in of itself qualify.  It has to be the systematic attempt based the above criteria.  The Geth let the Quarians go.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

mousestalker wrote...

Everypony needs to admit that the templars have the right of it at the end.

Killing countless men, women, and children for an Anders committed? Condemning enchanters, mages, and apprentices we have never seen for acts committed by apostates who were outside the Gallows? I'm not inclined to agree. Even though Cullen spares three mages, it is possibly they could have been made tranquil as Gaider suggested, since the Right of Annulment was bad enough at Kirkwall to inspire every Circle of Magi across Thedas to rise up and emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars despite the threat of death (which is the argument Wynne made against breaking free from the Chantry in Amaranthine, and likely the argument she used in Cumberland). I don't see a revolution happening if the Right had been revoked, especially when Cullen has shown to view mages as weapons, said they can't be treated as people, and seemed to have no issue with the Tranquil Solution.

[hoorayforicecream]

I see a whole lot of this in this thread:

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I see a whole lot of this in this thread:

You see a whole lot of hamburger thefts?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Just to clear something up since I was mentioned. I personally am on the fence when it comes to the Right being considered a genocide or not.

On one hand, mages due to their ideological and social segregation as well as their unique genetic heritage can be considered a seperate ethnic group and the complete killing of all of these groups in a given nation is at first glance genocidal. But after the Right, mages are repopulated in that same area, so the goal was not to purge mages permanently or even for a long period of time. But to counter that, it could be argued that the Chantry / Templars put in place policies deliberately designed to keep the mage population down and the Right is an extreme example (somewhat similar to the alienage purges to keep the population down).

So imo, the Right is pretty close to being a genocide. How relevant and pertinent that is, is up to the players (I personally do not attribute to it that much intrinsic significance, at least from an academic point of view).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mai 2011 - 03:05 .

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I see a whole lot of this in this thread:

You see a whole lot of hamburger thefts?

A lot of people only able to repeat the same thing while jumping up and down, waving their arms. And it all sounds like "robble robble" to me. But yes, hamburger thefts too.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 03 mai 2011 - 03:06 .

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Just to clear something up since I was mentioned. I personally am on the fence when it comes to the Right being considered a genocide or not.

On one hand, mages due to their ideological and social segregation as well as their unique genetic heritage can be considered a seperate ethnic group and the complete killing of all of these groups in a given nation is at first glance genocidal. But after the Right, mages are repopulated in that same area, so the goal was not to purge mages permanently or even for a long period of time. But to counter that, it could be argued that the Chantry / Templars put in place policies deliberately designed to keep the mage population down and the Right is an extreme example (somewhat similar to the alienage purges to keep the population down).

So imo, the Right is pretty close to being a genocide. How relevant and pertinent that is, is up to the players (I personally do not attribute to it that much intrinsic significance, at least from an academic point of view).

KoP, I think the clinchers are sub-sections (d) and (e) of the definition.  The RoA is just one tool used in an entire system that is apparently genocidal.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 mai 2011 - 03:10 .

[mousestalker]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I see a whole lot of this in this thread:

You see a whole lot of hamburger thefts?

A lot of people only able to repeat the same thing while jumping up and down, waving their arms. And it all sounds like "robble robble" to me. But yes, hamburger thefts too.

As evidence of this, can anyone show a hamburger in Kirkwall? There aren't any. They've obviously been stolen, probably by mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
KoP, I think the clinchers are sub-sections (d) and (e) of the definition.  The RoA is just one tool used in an entire system that is apparently genocidal.

-Polaris

Yea, the system seemingly fits those 2 conditions. Maybe © as well. ( if we consider being called cursed and being watched 24/7 to be mental harm.

Do we know what Templars do to mage children that they take, like Wynne's?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Someone needs to stop that burglar from stealing all the burgers, hoorayforicecream...

I'd imagine these are the kind of debates that would happen in Thedas, amongst the people discussing the issues of the Chantry controlled Circles, the mages and the templars, and what would be the right course of action to take. It's not hard to see that there would be a lack of consensus among the people discussing the issues.

What I wonder is whether we will have the same level of control that we did in Origins to determine who should ultimately succeed - the mages, or the templars? If the next game takes place in Orlais, the seat of power for the Chantry, I can imagine the six Circles within the nation breaking free from Chantry and templar control will be an issue.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
What I wonder is whether we will have the same level of control that we did in Origins to determine who should ultimately succeed - the mages, or the templars? If the next game takes place in Orlais, the seat of power for the Chantry, I can imagine the six Circles within the nation breaking free from Chantry and templar control will be an issue.

As long as it's not lazy-ass Hawke who gets to make that choice. But a pro-active and possibly even ambitious character who is qualified to do so (fingers vainly crossed for OGB).

And hopefully they will reduce the amount of crazy and focus on the human aspect of the conflict. And try to make it more nuanced (looking at you insane mages). And with more than 2 choices, I don't want complete mage freedom nor do I want a return or worsening of the Chantry system. I want something entirely different.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mai 2011 - 03:26 .

[GavrielKay]

I'm curious where folks get the idea that siding with the Templars means that you somehow get to believe that the RoA gets called off? Cullen never expresses any real objection to it and doesn't step in to stop anything until Meredith wants to kill the Champion. The city would still be crazed, the other Templars are presumably running through the Gallows carrying out their duty all through the end-game sequence. Plus the idea that it was bad enough to send all the other circles into open revolt. I think you have to do BioWare scale hand-waving to think that Cullen called off the RoA after Meredith died. It might make the choice seem a bit more grey than black, but I don't think there's any in-game reason to believe it plays out that way. Even if they really do spare the 3 mages that surrender (and that's not a given), that's not much evidence compared to having enough outrage to foment all out revolt of the other circles.

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Oho! Polaris, are we to take it you've revised your position on the genocide of the quarians as carried out by the geth? Last time I checked, you were saying that didn't count as genocide because some refugees made it out.

You surely can't believe that annulling one Circle qualifies under the Hague definition, but wiping out more than 99% of a civilian population spread across several planets doesn't?

Read the definition and you'll find that you have it topsy turvey.  The Quarians were the ones guilty of attempted Genocide.  There is no evidence that the Geth tried to systematically wipe out quarians.  The fact that 99% died does not in of itself qualify.  It has to be the systematic attempt based the above criteria.  The Geth let the Quarians go.

-Polaris

Watching you twist the definition of genocide to excuse your favoured groups would be quite sickening, if it weren't so funny.

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Watching you twist the definition of genocide to excuse your favoured groups would be quite sickening, if it weren't so funny.

I am using the definition given.  Just because 99% of a population dies, even if it's by a WMD does not rise to the level of genocide.  Genocide has a very specific meaning which I've posted.  The QUARIANS were guilty of attempted genocide by trying to 'turn off' an entire sentient species.  The Geth defended themselves. 

The death toll is not the defininng characteristic of genocide.  The systemitic targeting of groups for reduction/exinction is as the above definition makes clear.

If the Geth wanted to commit genocide on the Quarians, there wouldn't have been any Quarians left.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

From UN Assembly Resolution 260 via Wiki:

[quote]Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as
[quote]
...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[3][/quote]
[/quote]
Given that mages throughout the Dragon Age series are treated and are identified both by themselves and by society at large as a seperate ETHNIC/RACIAL group, it's extremely plain to see that the Right of Annulment does qualify.  Destroying a racial/ethnic group in a specific location or nation (Kirkwall/Bosnia/Rwanda) still qualifies as Genocide...or at least the Hague thinks so.

-Polaris[/quote][/quote]
Again. You completely miss the important part of what makes genocide genocide. What is done to the mages is NOT the intend to destroy. The intention is the most crucial part of genocide, and the Circle system, even the Annulment, does not live up to that quotient, which nullifies your entire claim. The intension is EVERYTHING when it comes to to genocide, what is done is more or less irrelevant.
The intention of the Circle system, is not to destroy. The intent is more likely, contrary to popular belief, to protect and to control. This nullifies the claim to genocide.
The Annulment is intended to punish. It is the last resort the Templars can ever take to. If they had any other option than to condemn all the mages they probably would, but as it is, they condemn the mages collectively. Again, the intention is not to destroy them, simply for being mages, but to punish criminals. Which nullifies your claim of genocide.

It is NOT genocide. Face it.