4350 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lob is right EmperorSahlertz. We have all kinds of info telling us that other societies where mages aren't kept under close watch and locked away are stable. You do seem to be refusing these things as fact.

Stable =/= good.

This argument is a little odd, you know.  Out of those societies that are bandied about as not working like the Chantry-based societies, the one we know the most about - by far - is Tevinter.  Sure, it's stable.  But is it anyplace that anyone would want to live if they were not a powerful mage?  Given all we know about it, I think the honest answer for most people would have to be "no".

We know virtually nothing about Rivain.  We do know that at least parts of it follow the Qun.  And there have been plenty of people on this board who argue the Qun is repressive.  It sure ain't nice to be a mage there.

The Chasind tribes - again, we know next to nothing about them.  Yes, we're told their Shamans are leaders.  But not much else.  Do they lead by terror?  Maybe not.  Are they trained by Flemeth?  Seems they might be - you think she doesn't know how to root out a weak-willed mage and make them conveniently disappear?

The Avvar - do they even exist anymore?

Yes, you can make that argument, but it's really based on extremely little information.  And touting Tevinter as a jewel in the "mages aren't persecuted there" arena is somewhat . . . well, misplaced in a discussion about whether mages need to be kept under control.

Just trying to add a voice of reason here.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lob is right EmperorSahlertz. We have all kinds of info telling us that other societies where mages aren't kept under close watch and locked away are stable. You do seem to be refusing these things as fact.

Stable =/= good.

This argument is a little odd, you know.  Out of those societies that are bandied about as not working like the Chantry-based societies, the one we know the most about - by far - is Tevinter.  Sure, it's stable.  But is it anyplace that anyone would want to live if they were not a powerful mage?  Given all we know about it, I think the honest answer for most people would have to be "no".

The Imperium enslaves mages and non-mages alike. We know there's social inequality in Orzammar because of the caste system. The city elves who live in the Alienages within the Andrastian nations have no options to get out of the ghettos, unless they wish to leave human society and join the Dalish. The mages have no basic rights and are forced to live in Chantry controlled Circles, which is nothing more than a dictatorship. There are problems with all the stable societies.

TJPags wrote...

We know virtually nothing about Rivain.  We do know that at least parts of it follow the Qun.  And there have been plenty of people on this board who argue the Qun is repressive.  It sure ain't nice to be a mage there.

We know that they have kept their seers close for over a millennia, and that the Rivani witches are referenced as one of three groups not under templar control in the codex entry that was cited. The people of Rivain are said to believe in the Natural Order. Natural Order. Many Rivani, especially in Kont-aar, converted to the Qun, because their religion and the Qun don't appear to be that contradictory from one another.

TJPags wrote...

The Chasind tribes - again, we know next to nothing about them.  Yes, we're told their Shamans are leaders.  But not much else.  Do they lead by terror?  Maybe not.  Are they trained by Flemeth?  Seems they might be - you think she doesn't know how to root out a weak-willed mage and make them conveniently disappear?

They are said to be peaceful in present day Thedas. According to the codex:

"Today, the Chasind are considered largely peaceful, though their ways are still primitive compared to our own. In the Korcari Wilds they live in strange-looking huts built on stilts or even built into the great treetops. They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars."

Apparently, their history says the Shamans learned magic from the Witches of the Wild, and the tale of Flemeth is celebrated by all the tribes.

TJPags wrote...

The Avvar - do they even exist anymore?

You might be thinking of the Alamarri. The Avvars live in the Frostback Mountains, are lead by Shamans, and worship a pantheon of gods.

TJPags wrote...

Yes, you can make that argument, but it's really based on extremely little information.  And touting Tevinter as a jewel in the "mages aren't persecuted there" arena is somewhat . . . well, misplaced in a discussion about whether mages need to be kept under control.

Tevinter was mentioned from the codex entry. The codex entry states:

"It is a templar’s place to watch their charges for signs of weakness or corruption, and should they find it to act without hesitation for the good of all. That this occasionally leads to charges of tyranny and abuse is, according to the Chantry, a price that must be paid for the security the templars offer.

Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off.

The Templar Order, however, is nothing if not certain of its role. From the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux the Knight-Vigilant commands the templars to serve the Maker’s will and keep the peace. By the common folk they are seen as self-sacrificing men and women, vigilant warriors that form the first line of defense between humanity and the chaos that once ruled the land during the old Imperium. To the mages they are often seen as oppressors, even well-meaning ones, and the gap between them is growing larger with each passing year."

No one is touting the Tevinter Imperium.

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think it's trolling to disagree with you, Deztyn. You'll have to excuse me if I don't agree with the idea that mages are cursed.

Disagreement is fine. It's your tendency to ignore what I'm actually saying in favor of what you imagine I'm saying that I take issue with.

Some people don't like their lot in life, which leads to depression and suicide. I think it would be the same for mages as well.

... you can't directly admit it can you?

Some people don't like their lot in life, when it involves demons speaking to them and trying to steal their bodies. They don't all have to be taught it's a curse for some of them to feel cursed. Which is all I was saying. And which you've ignored or misunderstood in order to go on about how evil the Chantry is and only Andrastians would ever believe that any part of magehood was bad.

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Some people don't like their lot in life, which leads to depression and suicide. I think it would be the same for mages as well.

... you can't directly admit it can you?

...you can't directly admit that it's only Andrastians who call magic a curse, can you?

Deztyn wrote...

Some people don't like their lot in life, when it involves demons speaking to them and trying to steal their bodies. They don't all have to be taught it's a curse for some of them to feel cursed.

There's a difference between people not wanting to be a mage, and addressing it as a curse when we hear, over and over again, Andrastians referring to magic as a curse over the course of two games. It's not a coincidence that Andrastians in DA:O and DA2 refer to magic as a curse.

Deztyn wrote...

Which is all I was saying. And which you've ignored or misunderstood in order to go on about how evil the Chantry is and only Andrastians would ever believe that any part of magehood was bad.

Because you seem to be whitewashing the fact that it's due to the Chantry that they specifically see it as a curse.

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Then what? Home schooling? Logistical nightmare. How would it work?

I guess it depends upon the rarity of mages how common the schools would be.  We don't know if it's a 1 in 20 thing or a 1 in 5,000 thing.  I suppose it's envitable some people would be too far away from one and wouldn't be able to temporarily relocate, but the majority would not have to lose their children.  So yeah, I'll conceed that a rare case of temporarily losing one's children would occasionally occur, but it's not nearly the necessity that the Chantry makes it out to be.

In places like Denerim or Kirkwall it might be fine. But rural areas with only a few hundred people per town at most? At the very least you're looking at boarding schools. And given the length of time involved, slow communications and dangers of travel it would still invite the "You can't have my children-- oops, she's an abomination kill her please before the whole village goes!" type situation as surely as the Circle system does.

No. But if the laws of the land allow people to drive drunk, you shouldn't be surprised when someone swerving all over the highway isn't pulled over.

True.  But the fact other peoples are oppressed is no reason that this people should be.  I'm completely in favor of most of the groups you mentioned fighting for their rights (not so sure about the Dalish honestly).  If the game showed us the plight of the casteless and opened a door for them to fight for their rights, I'd be totally in support of that too.  Society will never advance in terms of equality if nobody's allowed to make the first step because it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the oppressed.

Ideally no one would be oppressed. Change is needed, but when discussing it I see no point in forgetting what the overall world looks like. It's Thedas, not the modern western world. And I want to start the changes with indoor plumbing.

I suspect they bonded over a mutual fear and hatred of magic. I'm sure Merry likes that Karras has a certain ruthlessness and will do anything to eliminate the threat of loose mages. I'm less sure that Meredith would support his nightly visits to Alain.

Perhaps.  It's also possible that since they don't think of them as people, they don't really care about the abuses because it's not like it's people suffering.

Meredith has pity for the plight of mages. She seems to recognize they are people. She just sees them as extremely dangerous people who can explode at any time, and who turn her loyal templars against her, just like that darned Champion. She's ruthless, but I see her as more fear aggressive than hateful and sadistic. YMMV on that. It's tough to analyze her character when we don't get to meet her until after she has her Shiny.

I'd certainly like to wound Cullen.

The bolded. It's not so much about authorities denying them rights, and them fighting against it. I was responding to your suggestion that total destruction of the Chantry was in order. The majority wouldn't stand for it. Maybe if there was a significant enough schism that a new Cult of Andraste could replace the existing Chantry. But total elimination? Not likely.

Ahh, miswording on my part.  I think the Chantry needs to lose its military power.  If people still want to worship some OGB that an archon torched a millenia ago, that's fine.  Basically what happened with the real crusades.

Oh, well that's different then. Still not sold on how supportive the average man would be, but I'll concede it would be possible.

And I'm seriously in love with Old God Andraste. <3

[Deztyn]

Lobs...
... stop being so stuck on the word 'curse' literally meaning "God/The Maker has decided to inflict this on you!"

[TJPags]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]TJPags wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lob is right EmperorSahlertz. We have all kinds of info telling us that other societies where mages aren't kept under close watch and locked away are stable. You do seem to be refusing these things as fact.[/quote]

Stable =/= good.

This argument is a little odd, you know.  Out of those societies that are bandied about as not working like the Chantry-based societies, the one we know the most about - by far - is Tevinter.  Sure, it's stable.  But is it anyplace that anyone would want to live if they were not a powerful mage?  Given all we know about it, I think the honest answer for most people would have to be "no". [/quote]

The Imperium enslaves mages and non-mages alike. We know there's social inequality in Orzammar because of the caste system. The city elves who live in the Alienages within the Andrastian nations have no options to get out of the ghettos, unless they wish to leave human society and join the Dalish. The mages have no basic rights and are forced to live in Chantry controlled Circles, which is nothing more than a dictatorship. There are problems with all the stable societies.[/quote]

Indeed, there are problems with a lot of stable societies, including those in the modern day.  Pointing out that there's social inequality in all societies, though, is odd.  Is it okay for there to be some social inequality?  Or is it that no society is better than any other?  I'm not sure what you're going for here.  A society that has such inequality, in a different form than that which exists under the Chantry, is hardly better, is it?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]TJPags wrote...

We know virtually nothing about Rivain.  We do know that at least parts of it follow the Qun.  And there have been plenty of people on this board who argue the Qun is repressive.  It sure ain't nice to be a mage there. [/quote]

We know that they have kept their seers close for over a millennia, and that the Rivani witches are referenced as one of three groups not under templar control in the codex entry that was cited. The people of Rivain are said to believe in the Natural Order. Natural Order. Many Rivani, especially in Kont-aar, converted to the Qun, because their religion and the Qun don't appear to be that contradictory from one another.[/quote]

Indeed, that's what I'm saying - we know next to nothing about them.  All we know is what that one codex says.  They keep their seers close, do they?  Under lock and key?  In tiny cells?  In large palaces?  And what does it mean that they believe in Natural Order?  Can you explain that?  Is there a definition somewhere?  And hey, if it's not all that contradictory to the Qun, how does this Natural Order treat mages?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]TJPags wrote...

The Chasind tribes - again, we know next to nothing about them.  Yes, we're told their Shamans are leaders.  But not much else.  Do they lead by terror?  Maybe not.  Are they trained by Flemeth?  Seems they might be - you think she doesn't know how to root out a weak-willed mage and make them conveniently disappear? [/quote]

They are said to be peaceful in present day Thedas. According to the codex:

"Today, the Chasind are considered largely peaceful, though their ways are still primitive compared to our own. In the Korcari Wilds they live in strange-looking huts built on stilts or even built into the great treetops. They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars."

Apparently, their history says the Shamans learned magic from the Witches of the Wild, and the tale of Flemeth is celebrated by all the tribes.[/quote]

I'm not sure what they're current pacefulness has to do with anything.  Did I say they were not peaceful?  I asked - somewhat rhetorically - if the Shamans, who are leaders among them, maintained that role by terror.  Do we know this answer?  We don't.  We know they live in small tribes, are somewhat primitive, and count their Shamans as leaders.  Anything else we know?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]TJPags wrote...

The Avvar - do they even exist anymore? [/quote]

You might be thinking of the Alamarri. The Avvars live in the Frostback Mountains, are lead by Shamans, and worship a pantheon of gods.[/quote]

I may be.  I thought it was the Avvar tribes who built Vigils Keep.  And those two statues you see in the woods during DAA, weren't they Avvar also?  And the crypt-like cellar in Vigil's Keep - wasn't that Avvar?  Or was all that Alamari?

I may have them backwards, and if I do, oh well.

Question still remains - what do we know about them, exactly?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]TJPags wrote...

Yes, you can make that argument, but it's really based on extremely little information.  And touting Tevinter as a jewel in the "mages aren't persecuted there" arena is somewhat . . . well, misplaced in a discussion about whether mages need to be kept under control. [/quote]

Tevinter was mentioned from the codex entry. The codex entry states:

"It is a templar’s place to watch their charges for signs of weakness or corruption, and should they find it to act without hesitation for the good of all. That this occasionally leads to charges of tyranny and abuse is, according to the Chantry, a price that must be paid for the security the templars offer.

Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off.

The Templar Order, however, is nothing if not certain of its role. From the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux the Knight-Vigilant commands the templars to serve the Maker’s will and keep the peace. By the common folk they are seen as self-sacrificing men and women, vigilant warriors that form the first line of defense between humanity and the chaos that once ruled the land during the old Imperium. To the mages they are often seen as oppressors, even well-meaning ones, and the gap between them is growing larger with each passing year."

No one is touting the Tevinter Imperium.[/quote]

Oh, I beg to differ.  People - including yourself - do indeed point to Tevinter as an example of a place where mages aren't treated as unfairly as you believe the Cantry treats them.  And why?  To show that mages don't need to be treated that way, right?  What would you call that, if not touting the Imperium as a better way?

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

Lobs...
... stop being so stuck on the word 'curse' literally meaning "God/The Maker has decided to inflict this on you!"

Deztyn, I'm addressing the context in which that specific word is used. If you're saying some people would rather not be mages, then I agree. It takes training to use the powers responsibly, and I can imagine some would rather not be mages, but the specific use of the word "curse" is repeatedly used only by Andrastians.

[Lewie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Lobs...
... stop being so stuck on the word 'curse' literally meaning "God/The Maker has decided to inflict this on you!"

Deztyn, I'm addressing the context in which that specific word is used. If you're saying some people would rather not be mages, then I agree. It takes training to use the powers responsibly, and I can imagine some would rather not be mages, but the specific use of the word "curse" is repeatedly used only by Andrastians.

What is an andrastian exactly? 

Elthina? the rebellious zealout peatrice? someone who actually believes in the all the chantry waffle? 

Modifié par louise101, 11 mai 2011 - 02:02 .

[TEWR]

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Lobs...
... stop being so stuck on the word 'curse' literally meaning "God/The Maker has decided to inflict this on you!"

Deztyn, I'm addressing the context in which that specific word is used. If you're saying some people would rather not be mages, then I agree. It takes training to use the powers responsibly, and I can imagine some would rather not be mages, but the specific use of the word "curse" is repeatedly used only by Andrastians.

What is an andrastian exactly? 

Usually, it's a person of the Chantry cloth who should be put in a sanitarium.



But really, it's just a person who decides to worship the Maker, and Makerian doesn't sound all that catchy.

[Lewie]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Lobs...
... stop being so stuck on the word 'curse' literally meaning "God/The Maker has decided to inflict this on you!"

Deztyn, I'm addressing the context in which that specific word is used. If you're saying some people would rather not be mages, then I agree. It takes training to use the powers responsibly, and I can imagine some would rather not be mages, but the specific use of the word "curse" is repeatedly used only by Andrastians.

What is an andrastian exactly? 

Usually, it's a person of the Chantry cloth who should be put in a sanitarium.



But really, it's just a person who decides to worship the Maker, and Makerian doesn't sound all that catchy.

So, if i play as mage, which i usually do, who stays away from blood magic, and supports (to me i guess) the good sort, i am an andrastrian or a 'ian' or 'ism' to some degree and support various 'isms' and ugh. I was just trying to figure out which 'label' i apparently have. 

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Indeed, there are problems with a lot of stable societies, including those in the modern day.  Pointing out that there's social inequality in all societies, though, is odd.  Is it okay for there to be some social inequality?  Or is it that no society is better than any other?  I'm not sure what you're going for here.  A society that has such inequality, in a different form than that which exists under the Chantry, is hardly better, is it?

Why is it odd to address that there are problems with societies in Thedas? Why shouldn't there be change for the people who suffer under social inequality in other parts of the continent? I've read many people state that one of the reasons to choose Bhelen as King of Orzammar was because he gave the casteless freedoms, and Alistair provides the elves representation as King of Ferelden.

TJPags wrote...

Indeed, that's what I'm saying - we know next to nothing about them.  All we know is what that one codex says.  They keep their seers close, do they?  Under lock and key?  In tiny cells?  In large palaces?  And what does it mean that they believe in Natural Order?  Can you explain that?  Is there a definition somewhere?  And hey, if it's not all that contradictory to the Qun, how does this Natural Order treat mages?

What Brother Genitivi wrote was:

"The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition."

The information about Natural Order was provided by David Gaider at the old forum. David Gaider said:

"They have their own ancient tradition. Without going into too much detail (as you don't know much about Rivain at all, at this point) they are pantheists. They don't believe in the Maker, but rather in the Natural Order. Many (especially in Kont-aar) have also converted to the Qun -- their religion and the Qun are not very contradictory."

TJPags wrote...

I'm not sure what they're current pacefulness has to do with anything.  Did I say they were not peaceful?  I asked - somewhat rhetorically - if the Shamans, who are leaders among them, maintained that role by terror.  Do we know this answer?  We don't.  We know they live in small tribes, are somewhat primitive, and count their Shamans as leaders.  Anything else we know?

The Shamans have lead the tribes of the Chasind and the Avvar for over a millennia. If the Chasind didn't want the Shamans to lead them, why would they have permitted this for centuries? Why would they celebrate the tale of Flemeth? Why would the tales of the Witches of the Wilds inspire awe and gratitude? We know the Chasind have resided in the Korcari Wilds since the wars with the Alamarri drove them south over a millennia ago. The Chasind are said to have adapted quickly to the Korcari Wilds. The Chasind and the Avvars battled the Imperium centuries ago, and Ostagar was built specifically so that the Imperium could deal with the Chasind.

TJPags wrote...

I may be.  I thought it was the Avvar tribes who built Vigils Keep.  And those two statues you see in the woods during DAA, weren't they Avvar also?  And the crypt-like cellar in Vigil's Keep - wasn't that Avvar?  Or was all that Alamari?

I may have them backwards, and if I do, oh well.

Question still remains - what do we know about them, exactly?

No, you remember correctly, because the Avvar are mentioned in Amaranthine. Historically, the Alamarri split into three tribes, each taking a piece of Ferelden to call their home. The Avvars chose to reside in the Frostbacks Mountains, and they still exist to this day. The Avvar codex states:

"Driven across the Frostbacks in ancient times, the Alamarri tribesmen split into three groups: One settled the Ferelden Valley, one was pushed into the Korcari Wilds, and the last returned to the mountains."

The Avvars worship animal gods and three primary gods: Korth the Mountain-Father, Hakkon Wintersbreath, and the Lady of the Skies. Originally, one of the Human Origins for DA:O was going to be a member of the Avvar tribe.

TJPags wrote...

Oh, I beg to differ.  People - including yourself - do indeed point to Tevinter as an example of a place where mages aren't treated as unfairly as you believe the Cantry treats them.  And why?  To show that mages don't need to be treated that way, right?  What would you call that, if not touting the Imperium as a better way?

I'm going to have to beg to differ here, because nothing you said in this statement was remotely accurate. I don't think the Imperium treats mages fairly, since it enslaves mages and nonmages alike. I don't think the Chantry is treating mages fairly, which is why there was a continential revolt made by the mages to free themselves from the Chantry and the templars. I think Tevinter and the Chantry are remarkably similar in many ways, actually.

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn, I'm addressing the context in which that specific word is used. If you're saying some people would rather not be mages, then I agree. It takes training to use the powers responsibly, and I can imagine some would rather not be mages, but the specific use of the word "curse" is repeatedly used only by Andrastians.

What is an andrastian exactly? 

The people who believe in the Chantry of Andraste's docturine are called Andrastians.

[Plaintiff]

louise101 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

louise101 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Lobs...
... stop being so stuck on the word 'curse' literally meaning "God/The Maker has decided to inflict this on you!"

Deztyn, I'm addressing the context in which that specific word is used. If you're saying some people would rather not be mages, then I agree. It takes training to use the powers responsibly, and I can imagine some would rather not be mages, but the specific use of the word "curse" is repeatedly used only by Andrastians.

What is an andrastian exactly? 

Usually, it's a person of the Chantry cloth who should be put in a sanitarium.



But really, it's just a person who decides to worship the Maker, and Makerian doesn't sound all that catchy.

So, if i play as mage, which i usually do, who stays away from blood magic, and supports (to me i guess) the good sort, i am an andrastrian or a 'ian' or 'ism' to some degree and support various 'isms' and ugh. I was just trying to figure out which 'label' i apparently have. 

I think an 'Andrastian' is someone who believes Andraste was the Bride of the Maker, much in the same way that a 'Christian' is someone who believes Christ was the son of God. The 'Black Chantry' of the Tevinter Imperium believes in the Maker, or claims to, anyway, but according to its teachings, Andraste was just an ordinary woman.

You can be a 'good' mage and stay away from Blood Magic and still be an athiest.

[Deztyn]

*Sighs*

Lobs,

My very first post on the subject was a response to someone talking about Keili where I mentioned being plagued by demons and fear of turning into an abomination would lead to some people feeling 'cursed' even without the Chantry's teachings. I clarified repeatedly that I meant mages fearing possession and being burdened by their own power was not necessarily exclusive to the Chantry run Circles.

In other words, yes. That is what I am saying. That is what I have been saying for eight pages now. Often with italics.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that and agreeing with me.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Indeed, there are problems with a lot of stable societies, including those in the modern day.  Pointing out that there's social inequality in all societies, though, is odd.  Is it okay for there to be some social inequality?  Or is it that no society is better than any other?  I'm not sure what you're going for here.  A society that has such inequality, in a different form than that which exists under the Chantry, is hardly better, is it?

Why is it odd to address that there are problems with societies in Thedas? Why shouldn't there be change for the people who suffer under social inequality in other parts of the continent? I've read many people state that one of the reasons to choose Bhelen as King of Orzammar was because he gave the casteless freedoms, and Alistair provides the elves representation as King of Ferelden.

Why is it odd?  Well, we're having a discussion of the poor - as you see it - treatment of mages.  In support of your argument, you point out other cultures as examples of those which do not treat mages so poorly.  Yet there is inequality in all societies, it seems.  If so, then there is inequality in Rivain, with the Chasin, with the Avvar, and in Tevinter, no?  So, how is any of them better?  Just because of how they treat mages?

Oh, and speak not to me about "King Alistair".  He is a creation of your world, not mine. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Indeed, that's what I'm saying - we know next to nothing about them.  All we know is what that one codex says.  They keep their seers close, do they?  Under lock and key?  In tiny cells?  In large palaces?  And what does it mean that they believe in Natural Order?  Can you explain that?  Is there a definition somewhere?  And hey, if it's not all that contradictory to the Qun, how does this Natural Order treat mages?

What Brother Genitivi wrote was:

"The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition."

The information about Natural Order was provided by David Gaider at the old forum. David Gaider said:

"They have their own ancient tradition. Without going into too much detail (as you don't know much about Rivain at all, at this point) they are pantheists. They don't believe in the Maker, but rather in the Natural Order. Many (especially in Kont-aar) have also converted to the Qun -- their religion and the Qun are not very contradictory."

I see nothing there that tells me anything about the Rivani culture.  They refuse to be parted from their seers - yes, we've heard that before.  Those seers also are abominations, but we'll skip that a moment. 

Gaider's quote does not, at all, tell me what Natural Order is.  It defines nothing.  So it's not very helpful in that way.  It does mention the similarity of the Qun and the religion of Rivain.  So, how do they treat their mages?  They won't be parted from them, sure - but how are they treated?  In other words, those in the Chantry are not parted from their mages - they keep them in Circles.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I'm not sure what they're current pacefulness has to do with anything.  Did I say they were not peaceful?  I asked - somewhat rhetorically - if the Shamans, who are leaders among them, maintained that role by terror.  Do we know this answer?  We don't.  We know they live in small tribes, are somewhat primitive, and count their Shamans as leaders.  Anything else we know?

The Shamans have lead the tribes of the Chasind and the Avvar for over a millennia. If the Chasind didn't want the Shamans to lead them, why would they have permitted this for centuries? Why would they celebrate the tale of Flemeth? Why would the tales of the Witches of the Wilds inspire awe and gratitude? We know the Chasind have resided in the Korcari Wilds since the wars with the Alamarri drove them south over a millennia ago. The Chasind are said to have adapted quickly to the Korcari Wilds. The Chasind and the Avvars battled the Imperium centuries ago, and Ostagar was built specifically so that the Imperium could deal with the Chasind.

Again, you're giving me history.  None of that tells me how the Shamans are treated, why they are respected, or anything else.  Why would you respect someone who could burn your hut down with a thought?  Why would you allow someone to make decisions, if those who opposed him were to, say, mysteriously die?

In the Wheel of time, there is a nation ruled by two people.  The ruler rules for 7 years.  He marries someone.  After 7 years, he dies, and she rules.  She, in turn, marries, rules for 7 years, and dies.   These rulers control the people who use magic, who never use magic without their permission. Yet these people die after 7 years, time and time again.  Coincidence?  Or control by those using magic?

How did the Shamans get respect?  How does anyone get respect in a primitive culture?  The best hunter, strongest fighter - most dangerous Shaman? 

They live in the wilds - they revere Flemeth - who legend says led them at one time.  Sure, Morrigan says Flemeth denies this.  Did Flemeth lie to Morrigan?  <shrug> who knows?  Why would the witch inspire awe?  Well, hell, she's powerful, and never dies.  Why fear?  Because maybe she's the one training their Shamans, and making sure certain Shamans die in training?

I'm not stating any of this as fact, mind you - it's all conjecture on my part.  My point is, other than the history lesson you gave me, we know nothing about these people, how they actually live, either.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I may be.  I thought it was the Avvar tribes who built Vigils Keep.  And those two statues you see in the woods during DAA, weren't they Avvar also?  And the crypt-like cellar in Vigil's Keep - wasn't that Avvar?  Or was all that Alamari?

I may have them backwards, and if I do, oh well.

Question still remains - what do we know about them, exactly?

No, you remember correctly, because the Avvar are mentioned in Amaranthine. Historically, the Alamarri split into three tribes, each taking a piece of Ferelden to call their home. The Avvars chose to reside in the Frostbacks Mountains, and they still exist to this day. The Avvar codex states:

"Driven across the Frostbacks in ancient times, the Alamarri tribesmen split into three groups: One settled the Ferelden Valley, one was pushed into the Korcari Wilds, and the last returned to the mountains."

The Avvars worship animal gods and three primary gods: Korth the Mountain-Father, Hakkon Wintersbreath, and the Lady of the Skies. Originally, one of the Human Origins for DA:O was going to be a member of the Avvar tribe.

So, again, we know nothing here.  We know where they live.  Nice.  What else do we know?  How do they live?  What is their society like?

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, I beg to differ.  People - including yourself - do indeed point to Tevinter as an example of a place where mages aren't treated as unfairly as you believe the Cantry treats them.  And why?  To show that mages don't need to be treated that way, right?  What would you call that, if not touting the Imperium as a better way?

I'm going to have to beg to differ here, because nothing you said in this statement was remotely accurate. I don't think the Imperium treats mages fairly, since it enslaves mages and nonmages alike. I don't think the Chantry is treating mages fairly, which is why there was a continential revolt made by the mages to free themselves from the Chantry and the templars. I think Tevinter and the Chantry are remarkably similar in many ways, actually.

I'll be sure to point out the next time you or anyone mentions Tevinter as an example of a place where mages are not treated poorly in a pro-mage discussion.   

In any event, my point is this - you say these other societies do things differently, and presumably, better.  Yet we know nothing about them at all.  Nothing about their society.  Nothing about how they live.  Nothing about how they train mages, how they actually treat mages on a day to day basis, how they watch mages, what they do with rogue mages, etc.  It is an incredibly specious argument, since we really know nothing about these places.

But I know that won't stop you from using those extremely limited codex entries - and we both know codex entries are not completely accurate   - in support of your agenda.  So continue.  I should have kept reading instead of posting again.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

I'll be sure to point out the next time you or anyone mentions Tevinter as an example of a place where mages are not treated poorly in a pro-mage discussion.   

I've mentioned repeatedly that the Imperium enslaves mages along with non-mages. Why do you insist on making statements that aren't true?

TJPags wrote...

In any event, my point is this - you say these other societies do things differently, and presumably, better. 

I didn't say they are better, I addressed that they don't treat mages the same way as the Andrastian nations because not everyone views mages under the same spectrum as the Andrastian Chantry does. You seem to be inferring things that I haven't actually said.

TJPags wrote...

Yet we know nothing about them at all. 

Besides all the things I addressed about these cultures that demonstrates we do know things about these cultures, you mean?

TJPags wrote...

Nothing about their society.  Nothing about how they live.  Nothing about how they train mages, how they actually treat mages on a day to day basis, how they watch mages, what they do with rogue mages, etc.  It is an incredibly specious argument, since we really know nothing about these places.

We know enough to state that they don't view mages under the same negative gaze as the Chantry of Andraste does, which is the entire point.

TJPags wrote...

But I know that won't stop you from using those extremely limited codex entries - and we both know codex entries are not completely accurate   - in support of your agenda.  So continue.  I should have kept reading instead of posting again.

You seem to really hate me for refusing to share your point of view, TJPags.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Why is it odd?  Well, we're having a discussion of the poor - as you see it - treatment of mages. In support of your argument, you point out other cultures as examples of those which do not treat mages so poorly.  Yet there is inequality in all societies, it seems.  If so, then there is inequality in Rivain, with the Chasin, with the Avvar, and in Tevinter, no?  So, how is any of them better?  Just because of how they treat mages?

Oh, and speak not to me about "King Alistair".  He is a creation of your world, not mine.   

I addressed that the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the kingdom of Rivain don't treat mages the same way that the Andrastian nations do - because these cultures have a different view on magic than the nations that are populated by members of the Chantry of Andraste.

TJPags wrote...

I see nothing there that tells me anything about the Rivani culture.  They refuse to be parted from their seers - yes, we've heard that before.  Those seers also are abominations, but we'll skip that a moment. 

Gaider's quote does not, at all, tell me what Natural Order is.  It defines nothing.  So it's not very helpful in that way.  It does mention the similarity of the Qun and the religion of Rivain.  So, how do they treat their mages?  They won't be parted from them, sure - but how are they treated?  In other words, those in the Chantry are not parted from their mages - they keep them in Circles.

The Circle mages are parted from the population, by being imprisoned from the general population.

TJPags wrote...

Again, you're giving me history.  None of that tells me how the Shamans are treated, why they are respected, or anything else.  Why would you respect someone who could burn your hut down with a thought?  Why would you allow someone to make decisions, if those who opposed him were to, say, mysteriously die?

In the Wheel of time, there is a nation ruled by two people.  The ruler rules for 7 years.  He marries someone.  After 7 years, he dies, and she rules.  She, in turn, marries, rules for 7 years, and dies.   These rulers control the people who use magic, who never use magic without their permission. Yet these people die after 7 years, time and time again.  Coincidence?  Or control by those using magic?

How did the Shamans get respect?  How does anyone get respect in a primitive culture?  The best hunter, strongest fighter - most dangerous Shaman? 

All you've done is ask questions about things we don't have answers to, which can be done for a multitude of things in this newly created universe. It doesn't deny what we currently know when we hear and witness how the Circle mages are treated by the templars, and how there is discussion about alternative cultures that don't control mages with templars. Reading that the Chasind don't hate mages for being mages, but instead choose them to guide the clans, is the entire point. All I read from you is attempts to make alternative cultures out to be the same as Andrasian nations that subjugate mages, which isn't the case.

TJPags wrote...

They live in the wilds - they revere Flemeth - who legend says led them at one time.  Sure, Morrigan says Flemeth denies this.  Did Flemeth lie to Morrigan?  <shrug> who knows?  Why would the witch inspire awe?  Well, hell, she's powerful, and never dies.  Why fear?  Because maybe she's the one training their Shamans, and making sure certain Shamans die in training?

I'm not stating any of this as fact, mind you - it's all conjecture on my part.  My point is, other than the history lesson you gave me, we know nothing about these people, how they actually live, either.

Actually, it's addressed how the Chasind live, but I get the feeling I'm wasting my time providing information to you when all you've done is ask question after question, and made sardonic remarks at the end of your post that are not true.

Also, the Dalish also seem to have respect for Flemeth as Asha'bellanar.

TJPags wrote...

So, again, we know nothing here.  We know where they live.  Nice.  What else do we know?  How do they live?  What is their society like?

Actually, we do know things about these non-Andrastian cultures, we simply don't know everything there is to know about them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
Elthina is incompetent.

But knowing about Alrik's lovely idea isn't the same as having proof that Alrik has already been putting his plan into action.

It is still enough reason to watch him closely.

As for tranquilization. I don't know how it works, but if it wants to even pretend to be civilized,d it should be a bureaucratic process, with evidence brought forth and witnesses to testify that the mage needed to be tranquilized.
In other words, there should be a lot of paper work, documentation and regulations vis a vis tranquilization. And the one doing the oversight is the Chantry and not Templar command. That's probably not how it works.

In any case, I think it's established that Elthina is an incompetent idiot (and far from being the only one) and that was my main point.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
This argument is a little odd, you know.  Out of those societies that are bandied about as not working like the Chantry-based societies, the one we know the most about - by far - is Tevinter.  Sure, it's stable.  But is it anyplace that anyone would want to live if they were not a powerful mage?  Given all we know about it, I think the honest answer for most people would have to be "no".

So you mean to tell me that the Ancient Tevinter Imperium lasted for millenia, with *everyone* hating it? How can an Empire last that long in such a situation? At worst, most people would have been apathetic and wouldn't have differentiated between a mage and non-mage oligarchy. Unless someone wants to convince me that the magocracy used mind domination on millions of people, which is very farfetched.  

Yes, probably no one wanted to be a slave in Tevinter (probably, because slavery is not the "oh so evil" institution it's made out to be. Many freed slaves, out of loyalty to their houses, become clients to their owner families). But why would the average citizen hate it or prefer it to some place else? If the magocracy brought them wealth, glory, entertainement, business (empire means commerce), why would they care if they were ruled by a magocracy or a oligarchy?  What's the practical difference between a mage and non-mage oligarchy? In either case, the average joe is not going to have high social mobility. And in modern Tevinter, an elf can actually aspire to be a magister. Where else in Thedas, can an elf aspire to be in a very high ranking position?

Where does all this implausible villification of Tevinter come from? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 04:18 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
Elthina is incompetent.

But knowing about Alrik's lovely idea isn't the same as having proof that Alrik has already been putting his plan into action.

It is still enough reason to watch him closely.

As for tranquilization. I don't know how it works, but if it wants to even pretend to be civilized,d it should be a bureaucratic process, with evidence brought forth and witnesses to testify that the mage needed to be tranquilized.
In other words, there should be a lot of paper work, documentation and regulations vis a vis tranquilization. And the one doing the oversight is the Chantry and not Templar command. That's probably not how it works.

I think the ideal would have been a representative from the Chantry, The Knight-Commander, and the First Enchanter making the decision together. If it was the responsibility of just one of those groups it would still be too easy to abuse. Unless you're suggesting something more like a trial with the Chantry as the judge?

In any case, I think it's established that Elthina is an incompetent idiot (and far from being the only one) and that was my main point.  

Oh, I'd never try to claim that anyone in DA2 was actually competent. Except maybe Aveline. Varric comes close as a storyteller, but enemies exploding into pieces when I stab them? Seriously?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
I think the ideal would have been a representative from the Chantry, The Knight-Commander, and the First Enchanter making the decision together. If it was the responsibility of just one of those groups it would still be too easy to abuse. Unless you're suggesting something more like a trial with the Chantry as the judge?

More like a supervisor, mediator and overseer, but not the one making the direct shots (At least in day to day affairs). Like say if either the KC or the First Enchanter are not happy with a certain act / decision, they go back to the Chantry for a "neutral third opinion" that is legally binding. But of course the Chantry is probably not going to be neutral.

Elthina might have been neutral, but she was the passive lazy useless kind, which is as good as nothing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 04:57 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
I think the ideal would have been a representative from the Chantry, The Knight-Commander, and the First Enchanter making the decision together. If it was the responsibility of just one of those groups it would still be too easy to abuse. Unless you're suggesting something more like a trial with the Chantry as the judge?

More like a supervisor, mediator and overseer, but not the one making the direct shots (At least in day to day affairs). Like say if either the KC or the First Enchanter are not happy with a certain act / decision, they go back to the Chantry for a "neutral third opinion" that is legally binding. But of course the Chantry is probably not going to be neutral.

Probably not. But neither would the templars or the enchanters so I'm not sure the Chantry would be worse, it would just be a different bias.

Elthina might have been neutral, but she was the passive lazy useless kind, which is as good as nothing.

Well, we know she at least tried to be a mediator. So I'm not sure passive and lazy is right. Ineffective and ultimately useless I don't disagree with.

Of course, I'm also of the opinion that given the circumstances behind the RoAs creation, and the Divine's (stupid) plans for Kirkwall she should have just approved the Right when Meredith asked for it.

Circle out of control? Check.

Unruly mages not cooperating? Check.

Escaped abominations? Check.

It might not be moral, but it would have been legal.

And then she should have fired Meredith for letting things get that bad.

And then she should have stepped down.

Clean slate.

Modifié par Deztyn, 11 mai 2011 - 05:27 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

All of them should just die one day in unrelated accidents.

As for mediation. Mediation has to be proactive. I don't see Elthina mediating, unless Orsino bothered everyone from their meal for a bad speech. Meredith and Orsino both go to Elthina, hiding in her Chantry. She isn't the one who is proactively seeking to mediate, when the situation demanded such action.

EDIT: to elaborate. At best, she is barely dealing with the symptoms of the problem. She nowhere comes near to try to mediate and find solutions to the problem itself.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 05:45 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All of them should just die one day in unrelated accidents.

Well, Zevran is hanging around Kirkwall in Act III.

As for mediation. Mediation has to be proactive. I don't see Elthina mediating, unless Orsino bothered everyone from their meal for a bad speech. Meredith and Orsino both go to Elthina, hiding in her Chantry. She isn't the one who is proactively seeking to mediate, when the situation demanded such action.

EDIT: to elaborate. At best, she is barely dealing with the symptoms of the problem. She nowhere comes near to try to mediate and find solutions to the problem itself.

She does mention going to see them though. Granted, the first case is directly after the opening scene of Act III. And in another dialogue she mentions talking to Orsino. It's not unreasonable to think she was at least attempting to do more than we see. Failing, certainly, but I'll give her some credit for trying. She might even have had some success if it weren't for Anders. Maybe.