4350 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
She does mention going to see them though. Granted, the first case is directly after the opening scene of Act III. And in another dialogue she mentions talking to Orsino. It's not unreasonable to think she was at least attempting to do more than we see. Failing, certainly, but I'll give her some credit for trying. She might even have had some success if it weren't for Anders. Maybe.

Act 3 is three years after Act 2. And we know of problems since the begining of Act 2 (relly, it's from even before Act 1, but I digress). So maybe she was trying to be active at the end, but by then it was late.

I wish I could give her credit for trying, but I don't. I will give her credit by saying that the Divine is more incompetent than her.

As for Anders. Well Meredith and Orsino being angry and ranting against each other in the streets was not a display of any kind of effective mediation. And elthina's mediation seems more about delaying than fixing. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 06:12 .

[Woodstock-TC]

i was ok with the thought that cornered mages may turn to blood magic and if too weak become abominations by losing control / letting themself being controled.
Thats understandable, and most of us would resort (if cornered) to whatever weapon we have if its a death/live decision.
So it was easy for me to side with the mages every time.
The only real issue i have is not with Orsino turning willingly into an abomination (although that part makes somehow little sense as we are usually just whooping the floor with the templars from a game mechanic perspective) - but
- if you side with the mages you will have Orsino telling that maybe your mothers killer (forgot his name) was too drastic but generally right in his researches (you cant comment on that before he turns)
- if you side wiht the Templars you can comment it and its clear Orsino KNEW that.

Well by all with and charm the Hawkes i play have, thats the moment where the priority would shift instantly (to kill orsino). Replaying wiht this knowledge makes it hard to chose any side.
I always TRY to walk away from that madness unless Bethany is in the Circle (they just dont let me )

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lob is right EmperorSahlertz. We have all kinds of info telling us that other societies where mages aren't kept under close watch and locked away are stable. You do seem to be refusing these things as fact.

My point is that we dont know anything about how "free" those are. They may not have a literal prison, but a bound in their traditions. Shamans and Seers, would most likely be severely bound by such traditions, and the Dalish mages aren't free at all.
Second of all, the Dales weren't ruled by Mages (only amges anyway). It was ruled by noble houses, which the keepers are said to be descendants off. They aren't but it is tradition to claim that they are.

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
She does mention going to see them though. Granted, the first case is directly after the opening scene of Act III. And in another dialogue she mentions talking to Orsino. It's not unreasonable to think she was at least attempting to do more than we see. Failing, certainly, but I'll give her some credit for trying. She might even have had some success if it weren't for Anders. Maybe.

Act 3 is three years after Act 2. And we know of problems since the begining of Act 2 (relly, it's from even before Act 1, but I digress). So maybe she was trying to be active at the end, but by then it was late.

I wish I could give her credit for trying, but I don't. I will give her credit by saying that the Divine is more incompetent than her.

As for Anders. Well Meredith and Orsino being angry and ranting against each other in the streets was not a display of any kind of effective mediation. And elthina's mediation seems more about delaying than fixing. 

I can't really argue with that. She was spectacularly ineffective. I just object to people constantly saying she did nothing. She did things. Just not the things that most people wanted her to do(Including me.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
I can't really argue with that. She was spectacularly ineffective. I just object to people constantly saying she did nothing. She did things. Just not the things that most people wanted her to do(Including me.)

She did nothing meaningful would probably be a better description, tis true.

Still, I would not want her to die. I would just want her to retire, convince the Divine to do the same and take a vacation.

...on an island surrounded by sharks and giant krakens.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 06:58 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lob is right EmperorSahlertz. We have all kinds of info telling us that other societies where mages aren't kept under close watch and locked away are stable. You do seem to be refusing these things as fact.

My point is that we dont know anything about how "free" those are. They may not have a literal prison, but a bound in their traditions. Shamans and Seers, would most likely be severely bound by such traditions, and the Dalish mages aren't free at all.
Second of all, the Dales weren't ruled by Mages (only amges anyway). It was ruled by noble houses, which the keepers are said to be descendants off. They aren't but it is tradition to claim that they are.

Are you done with your speculations? Even if the shamans and seers where bound by traditions it would still be a significant improvement then the **** templars.

[nos_astra]

DKJaigen wrote...
Are you done with your speculations? Even if the shamans and seers where bound by traditions it would still be a significant improvement then the **** templars.

That would depend on the actual nature of these traditions. For all we know the seers could be worshipped while being chained to the walls of the shrine people have built in their honour.

I got this idea from the Elves-trilogy by Bernhard Hennen, where the city of Iskendria follows the gruesome tradition of worshipping a living goddess who ends her life drugged and publicly burned to death on their most important holiday.

And no, I don't believe we'll be ever done speculating.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2011 - 08:41 .

[Rifneno]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

...The plot shield was strong with that one. *grumbles* 
[/quote]

The plot shield is strong in many of them.  If I had the option, my Hawke would've made a lot of people "disappear" much earlier on.  Good chance Meredith would've been dead before Act III's opening scene was over.  Using Leandra's murder as a political weapon?  The very least she would've gotten was a spit in the face and a challenge to a duel, which I doubt the knight-commander of all the Free Marches could decline without losing serious face.

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

Huh...my neutral Hawke sided with the templars.

Because A. He didn't want to be killed by psycho Meredith (that didn't turn out to well)
B. He didn't want to side with mages and get slaughtered by templars (that worked out)
and C. He did not feel like dragging the day out any longer than necessary. [/quote]

So your Hawke is a spineless coward that would murder hundreds rather than risk angering someone that could challenge him.  Shame he walked out of it alive, he really deserved to die.  I have no sympathy for cowards.

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

Is it possible to be neutral and sided with the templars ? Hu ? It's weird !
[/quote]

Clearly you don't know what neutral means.  Neutral means you don't take sides.  If you side with someone, you're no longer neutral.  How is that such a hard concept for you?  That's rhetorical BTW, you don't need to reply 4 times to the same 2 sentences.  Again.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

Yes, you can make that argument, but it's really based on extremely little information.  And touting Tevinter as a jewel in the "mages aren't persecuted there" arena is somewhat . . . well, misplaced in a discussion about whether mages need to be kept under control.[/quote]

Tevinter isn't a good example in their morality, clearly. It is however a good example in showing that the Chantry exaggerates the threat of demons and abominations. If demons had as much sway over even blood mages as the Chantry claims then Tevinter would be a barren wasteland occupied only by the occasional roving abomination. It's not. It's a horrible dictatorship, but a horrible dictatorship run by people.

So this only leaves us with the question of whether free mages will inevitably try to enslave and oppress everyone else. I firmly believe this is not the case. A person's morals are based largely on the society they grew up in. Tevinter has spent ages untold teaching its next generation that their atrocities are okay. It's a vicious cycle that's hard to stop once started, but is not inevitably repeated elsewhere.

[quote]Just trying to add a voice of reason here.[/quote]

And good on you for that. While we disagree a lot, I will say you're making by far the best case here for your side.

[quote]In places like Denerim or Kirkwall it might be fine. But rural areas with only a few hundred people per town at most? At the very least you're looking at boarding schools. And given the length of time involved, slow communications and dangers of travel it would still invite the "You can't have my children-- oops, she's an abomination kill her please before the whole village goes!" type situation as surely as the Circle system does.[/quote]

True, but technological travel limitations are a given in any system. It's not a failure of the system that some people live in the middle of nowhere.

[quote]Ideally no one would be oppressed. Change is needed, but when discussing it I see no point in forgetting what the overall world looks like. It's Thedas, not the modern western world. And I want to start the changes with indoor plumbing.[/quote]

It's not really fair to compare technological innovation with civil rights. I'm sure if there's an advanced alien culture watching over thus, they wonder how we manage to live without some of the things they have. But does that mean some oppressed and abused peoples in a third world nation shouldn't try to fight back against the government abusing them?

I just don't see what taking the rest of Thedas into consideration means. Our own world was not much different at various eras unfortunately. It changed over thousands of years because one by one good men fought back against ignorance and fearmongering tyrants. Why shouldn't the same happen in Thedas? At the risk of breaking out a bad cliche, a long journey is made one step at a time.

[quote]Meredith has pity for the plight of mages. She seems to recognize they are people. She just sees them as extremely dangerous people who can explode at any time, and who turn her loyal templars against her, just like that darned Champion. She's ruthless, but I see her as more fear aggressive than hateful and sadistic. YMMV on that. It's tough to analyze her character when we don't get to meet her until after she has her Shiny.[/quote]

I would have thought so before seeing her attitude during the Right of Annulment. "This has been a long time coming. I am eager to begin!" Holy crap. That line hit me with as much shock and horror as they wanted Leandra's zombie to. She just admitted herself not an hour ago that many mages are good innocent people and claims it "breaks her heart" to do what she does. Now she's looking at wholesale slaughter and she's as giddy as a virgin on prom night. Seriously, there is no word other than "evil" for that.

[quote]And I'm seriously in love with Old God Andraste.[/quote]

Ditto. That theory is made of win. I've seen a lot of great theories here, but that's the only one I would actually be surprised to find out isn't true.

[quote]louise101 wrote...

What is an andrastian exactly?
[/quote]

What an odd question. An Andrastian is someone that follows Andraste as the voice of God The Maker.

[quote]So, if i play as mage, which i usually do, who stays away from blood magic, and supports (to me i guess) the good sort, i am an andrastrian or a 'ian' or 'ism' to some degree and support various 'isms' and ugh. I was just trying to figure out which 'label' i apparently have.[/quote]

Oh lord. Are we defending a religious army's right to imprison citizens of a country against the king's direct order and then complaining about "labels?" Sorry, I missed the memo that we have to be extremely politically correct when discussing genocidal regimes.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

Why is it odd?  Well, we're having a discussion of the poor - as you see it - treatment of mages.  In support of your argument, you point out other cultures as examples of those which do not treat mages so poorly.  Yet there is inequality in all societies, it seems.  If so, then there is inequality in Rivain, with the Chasin, with the Avvar, and in Tevinter, no?  So, how is any of them better?  Just because of how they treat mages?[/quote]

So because there's no utopia no one should seek to improve society?  If women hadn't been given the right to vote by World War II (which is pretty close, as it was only a couple decades) then we shouldn't have fought Germany?

[quote]Oh, and speak not to me about "King Alistair".  He is a creation of your world, not mine.  [/quote]

Wrong. He is a creation of Bioware that you have chosen not to put in your playthrough.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

Oh, I'd never try to claim that anyone in DA2 was actually competent. Except maybe Aveline.[/quote]

3 years after finding out a possible serial killer was hiding in a specific building, with a templar hounding her to investigate, her reaction was to whine at Hawke to get the templar to shut up. And the nutjob killer was still hiding in the same damn building. Aveline sucks too. ... At least I hope so, for Donnic's sake. ... I'm sorry, I can't help myself sometimes.

[quote]Well, we know she at least tried to be a mediator. So I'm not sure passive and lazy is right. Ineffective and ultimately useless I don't disagree with.[/quote]

"I don't agree with the knight-commander's methods, but I cannot take sides." How much more passive can you get than flatly refusing to take sides even when she thinks her subordinate is going too far?

Modifié par Rifneno, 11 mai 2011 - 12:07 .

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

"I don't agree with the knight-commander's methods, but I cannot take sides." How much more passive can you get than flatly refusing to take sides even when she thinks her subordinate is going too far?

As has been said before, when the sides are so completely unbalanaced, pretending to be neutral is just taking the side of the stronger by default. 

As far as I'm concerned, the only way Elthina isn't just as guilty as Meredith is if we're meant to assume that whatever communication Meredith has had with the Divine has convinced that worthy that an Exalted March is in order and she doesn't want anything like an actual compromise to mess up her chance to enjoy that.  I don't remember a single in game piece of evidence supporting that however, so I'm going with Elthina is a spineless failure.

I think even if it is the Divine's fault for hamstringing Elthina's ability to fix anything - that just goes further to prove the Chantry is corrupt (at its highest level) and shouldn't be in charge of taking out the trash, let alone the lives of mages.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
I can't really argue with that. She was spectacularly ineffective. I just object to people constantly saying she did nothing. She did things. Just not the things that most people wanted her to do(Including me.)

She did nothing meaningful would probably be a better description, tis true.

Still, I would not want her to die. I would just want her to retire, convince the Divine to do the same and take a vacation.

...on an island surrounded by sharks and giant krakens.

and cannibalistic savages.


Now, hopefully I can become a part of this thread again. Every time I think it's done for the day another dozen posts (at the very least) pop up.

[Beerfish]

Well from the one speech Elthina gives about being a patient parent rather than a stern one. I'd say she was in a very tough position and had the same tough choice as Hawke does at the end of the game. There is plenty of evidence that the Templars are out of control or approaching it and there is plenty of evidence that the mage situation around Kirkwall is dire. At that point neither she nor Hawke knows that the leaders of each are totally coco puffs cuckoo.

What are her options? What can she do to 'fix' things? The answer to this will fall along the same lines as our mage vs templar discussion in this thread. All the fervent mages supporters will trumpet that she should have gotten rid of Meredith and appeased the mages. All the pro templar side will say she should support meredith due to the terrible mage threat.

She is in the same boat as the rest of us and was a) a little naive and hoping discussion and time would calm things down.

As far as acting goes, she did in fact take some action. The Divine want to come in and 'deal' with it but she said no, no need for that. She was in a bit of a no win situation and yet she and her followers got it and that is often what happens in conflicts like this party A hates party B, party B hates party A, party C gets beat on.

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

That would change on the nature of these traditions.

You can apply that comment to almost everything. We don't know how the Knight-Vigilant is chosen and there's a great deal we have no information on regarding the Chantry. Does that mean we should assume he obtains his position by being monstrous towards mages, or should we not assume the worst simply because we don't know every single minute detail? Saying we can't make any assessment about the Chasind or the Avvar when we still make assessments about the Chantry, the templars, and the mages despite the fact that we don't know every minute detail doesn't really make sense to me. Not having the whole picture doesn't stop you and TJPags from agreeing with the Chantry, after all, but hearing about mage free societies, and suddenly we can't address their existence because we don't know everything about them? Isn't that a double standard? I'd understand if you and TJPags didn't make an assessment about any group in Thedas, but the two of you have.

As for your comment about the Shamans possibly being in chains, why would the Shamans be in chains in the Frostback Mountains? Wouldn't that hinder Avvar movement? Should we assume monstrous things about the Knight-Vigilant and the Divine because we lack similar information about them? Couldn't I say they are in chains since it's never explicitly stated that they aren't in chains? I don't see the logic there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Beerfish wrote...

Well from the one speech Elthina gives about being a patient parent rather than a stern one. I'd say she was in a very tough position and had the same tough choice as Hawke does at the end of the game. There is plenty of evidence that the Templars are out of control or approaching it and there is plenty of evidence that the mage situation around Kirkwall is dire. At that point neither she nor Hawke knows that the leaders of each are totally coco puffs cuckoo.

What are her options? What can she do to 'fix' things? The answer to this will fall along the same lines as our mage vs templar discussion in this thread. All the fervent mages supporters will trumpet that she should have gotten rid of Meredith and appeased the mages. All the pro templar side will say she should support meredith due to the terrible mage threat.

She is in the same boat as the rest of us and was a) a little naive and hoping discussion and time would calm things down.

As far as acting goes, she did in fact take some action. The Divine want to come in and 'deal' with it but she said no, no need for that. She was in a bit of a no win situation and yet she and her followers got it and that is often what happens in conflicts like this party A hates party B, party B hates party A, party C gets beat on.

Finally someone who understands Elthina's posistion. Yet, it won't change anything. All the Elthina haters aren't hating because she didn't take a side. They are hating because she didn't take their side.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 mai 2011 - 05:22 .

[nos_astra]

@Lob
Seers, not shamans. I believe these are the mages that the Rivaini wouldn't want to part with and who allow themselves to become possessed.

I can come up with a gruesome tradition for the Avvar or Chasind, too, if you want. ;-) I once wondered if they maybe choose the strongest mage to become their leading shaman and kill the rest because they are weak.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2011 - 05:32 .

[GavrielKay]

Beerfish wrote...

As far as acting goes, she did in fact take some action. The Divine want to come in and 'deal' with it but she said no, no need for that. She was in a bit of a no win situation and yet she and her followers got it and that is often what happens in conflicts like this party A hates party B, party B hates party A, party C gets beat on.

I don't think trying to talk the Divine out of an Exalted March is that much of an action.  She should have been preventing the situation from getting so close to such a dire solution.

I think Elthina should have supported Cullen in ousting Meredith. 

Cullen can hardly be considered soft on the mages so he should be hard line enough to satisfy the demands of the Divine.  He also feels like a stickler for the rules.  The rules give him the right (and he probably perceives it as responsibilty) to always mistrust the mages and watch them carefully.  But he doesn't show any real creativity in coming up with new tortures for them.  If he were instructed to make sure all the Templars were obeying the spirit and letter of the law, he'd probably have a good go at it.

I don't like him, but I do think he would be an improvement over Meredith while satisfying the Chantry hard-liners.  I think he's a bigot, but not insane.  In this ridiculous over-the-top situation, that's an improvement.  I'm not saying he's good, just better and a shade more reasonable than idol-crazed Meredith.

We're told Elthina is hugely popular in Kirkwall, throwing her support behind someone like Cullen could very well work.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

That would change on the nature of these traditions.

You can apply that comment to almost everything. We don't know how the Knight-Vigilant is chosen and there's a great deal we have no information on regarding the Chantry. Does that mean we should assume he obtains his position by being monstrous towards mages, or should we not assume the worst simply because we don't know every single minute detail? Saying we can't make any assessment about the Chasind or the Avvar when we still make assessments about the Chantry, the templars, and the mages despite the fact that we don't know every minute detail doesn't really make sense to me. Not having the whole picture doesn't stop you and TJPags from agreeing with the Chantry, after all, but hearing about mage free societies, and suddenly we can't address their existence because we don't know everything about them? Isn't that a double standard? I'd understand if you and TJPags didn't make an assessment about any group in Thedas, but the two of you have.

As for your comment about the Shamans possibly being in chains, why would the Shamans be in chains in the Frostback Mountains? Wouldn't that hinder Avvar movement? Should we assume monstrous things about the Knight-Vigilant and the Divine because we lack similar information about them? Couldn't I say they are in chains since it's never explicitly stated that they aren't in chains? I don't see the logic there.

We know far more about how the Chantry works, than we know of any other society in Thedas. That is why we can reasonably deduct, that a Knight-VIgilant is chosen by the Divine, similar to the way a Knight-Commander is chosen by a Grand Cleric. We also know that a Knight-Vigilant is a Templar, and we know a lot of Templars, and got no reason to believe that they are anyhting else than a Templar, for good or ill.
Now with teh societies you frequently list, we know next to nothing. You try to pass them off as some sort of mage utopia. And all we are trying to do, is point out, that we know nothing about their traitions, or how they handle magic in general. For instance, what happens to mage children in a Chasind tribe, who isn't a Shaman or Shaman's apprentice?

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Finally someone who understands Elthina's posistion. Yet, it won't change anything. All the Elthina haters aren't hating because she didn't take a side. They are hating because she didn't take their side.

And finally someone who admits that Elthina has in fact chosen a side.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

As has been said before, when the sides are so completely unbalanaced, pretending to be neutral is just taking the side of the stronger by default. 

So true.  Now that I think about it, aside from an earlier RoA I'm not sure her backing Meredith would've given Meredith anymore power.  She was already doing whatever she wanted.

Beerfish wrote...

What are her options? What can she do to 'fix' things? The answer to this will fall along the same lines as our mage vs templar discussion in this thread. All the fervent mages supporters will trumpet that she should have gotten rid of Meredith and appeased the mages. All the pro templar side will say she should support meredith due to the terrible mage threat.

You're making it more complicated than it is.  It's a grand cleric's job to make sure the knight commander is following Chantry law if not national law.  We're not saying she should've told Meredith "we're freeing the mages," we're saying she should've simply done her job and made Meredith play by the rules.  It's not "taking sides" to do your job.

She is in the same boat as the rest of us and was a) a little naive and hoping discussion and time would calm things down.

Anyone that thought that situation was going to calm down by discussion needs to stop spamming Esc during dialogue.  Any NPC that thinks that must have come from Massive Head Trauma Bay.

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Finally someone who understands Elthina's posistion. Yet, it won't change anything. All the Elthina haters aren't hating because she didn't take a side. They are hating because she didn't take their side.

And finally someone who admits that Elthina has in fact chosen a side.

GavrielKay: 1
EmperorSahlertz: 0

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

@Lob
Seers" not shamans.

Your theory that they would kill the rest who are "weak" is the same theory that was espoused by the pro-Chantry side for the Dalish before it was pointed out that Aneirin the Healer was a member of Zathrian's clan. Although EmperorSahlertz choses to ignore that we do have information on the Chasind and the Avvar, we don't have all the information - which is the same situation with the Chantry and the templars, but people still side with the Chantry and the templars regardless of not knowing every single detail about them. The Chasind and the Avvar seem to be based on indigenous people in the same way Ferelden is based on England, which explains the Shamans leading the tribes.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you sleep the whole day away and you have 5 pages to sift through.

That'll teach you to walk away from the computer during a lively discussion.  You can sleep when ya dead!

[Herr Uhl]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Finally someone who understands Elthina's posistion. Yet, it won't change anything. All the Elthina haters aren't hating because she didn't take a side. They are hating because she didn't take their side.

And finally someone who admits that Elthina has in fact chosen a side.

No, he doesn't. And what difference would it make if a random guy on the internets "admits" that a fictional character took a side?

Edit: As in the general Meredith/Circle thing, her being loyal to the Chantry should be obvious.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 11 mai 2011 - 06:11 .

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote..


So your Hawke is a spineless coward that would murder hundreds rather than risk angering someone that could challenge him.  Shame he walked out of it alive, he really deserved to die.  I have no sympathy for cowards.

 I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a hoot what you think about him. And cowards deserve to die? I suppose all those mages that surrendered rather than fight deserve to die as well. As does Alain, the rest of the Starkhaven circle mages along with Grace and Feyrniel. How dare they not fight Hawke for their freedom. Spineless cowards. 

And hey all those mages in the Kirkwall circle deserved everything they got! They didn't want to figt off the templars so hey! Stupid cowards deserved the rapes, beatings and tranquilizaton. 

Indeed. How dare they want to live and not die for somepeople they don't  know. How dare they. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 06:18 .

[GavrielKay]

Do people who support the RoA believe Meredith - that the RoA is the only solution and the only way to protect Kirkwall's population? And if you believe Meredith at the beginning of the end sequence: do you still believe she was right by the end?

She's the only one who tells us that we must annul the circle. She claims it's to protect and appease the population who will call for blood, but she wanted to do it long before Anders blew up the Chantry. Even if you take her at her word when she first tells you this, do you still believe her once it's revealed that she's under the influence of the idol-sword?

The Devs have admitted that they purposely created content to make choosing either side in the end a palatable choice. So as far as they're concerned there's enough in game info for Hawke to rationalize either mage or Templar for the final battle.

I think that's only true if you don't meta-game and know ahead of time that Meredith is crazy - but I wonder if some people support her even after the facts are known.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Do people who support the RoA believe Meredith - that the RoA is the only solution and the only way to protect Kirkwall's population? And if you believe Meredith at the beginning of the end sequence: do you still believe she was right by the end?

She's the only one who tells us that we must annul the circle. She claims it's to protect and appease the population who will call for blood, but she wanted to do it long before Anders blew up the Chantry. Even if you take her at her word when she first tells you this, do you still believe her once it's revealed that she's under the influence of the idol-sword?

The Devs have admitted that they purposely created content to make choosing either side in the end a palatable choice. So as far as they're concerned there's enough in game info for Hawke to rationalize either mage or Templar for the final battle.

I think that's only true if you don't meta-game and know ahead of time that Meredith is crazy - but I wonder if some people support her even after the facts are known.

 

Frankly my Hawke didn't believe it was the only way...but rather the most efficent. There's no time to have a rally and calm the people down. Meredith holds all the power and she's dead set on the annullment. The templars are gonna win vs the mages and the onlything helping the mages would do (in my Hawke's eyes he doesn't know about Cullen being a decent guy yet) is drag out the fighting and cause more collateral damage. Her suggestion about the people rioting to them made a smidge of sense though they really didn't believe it. To them the mages summoning demons and the demons being drawn to the desperate mages was the true threat. As for Meredith no Hawke doesn't really believe her. He knows she just wants them dead to fuel her paranoia. Sadly thanks to stupid Anders she then had enough power to carry her orders out. The most my Hawkes can do is make the RoA as quick as possible. 

As for Meredith...yeah once lighstaber sword hit Hawke was facepalming. He already heard rumors but didn't fully believe it until right then. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 06:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

They didn't want to figt off the templars so hey!

How they fight the Templars in the cutscenes really suggests that those mages just want to die.