4350 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Beerfish wrote...

Silfren wrote...



I'll speak for myself in expressing why I hate the Grand Cleric, thank you.  I hate her incompetent ass because nothing I've seen indicates that she made any effort in reining in abusive templars and their leader.  I'd have been satisfied with her efforts if she had been shown actually trying to mediate.  

Another person proves my point that any discussion of Elthina will fall 100% along the lines of pro mage/pro templar.  Oh and she did try and mediate as I mentioned in a previous post she called for both of them to meet her in game.  It says nothing about what happened at the meeting though.

She mediated in bad faith.  It takes TWO that are willing to negatiate and Elthina never gave any incentive for Meredith to do any negotiating because Elthina always turned a blind eye to Meredith's abuses of Chantry law.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

In Exile wrote...

Another poster (Rifneno, I believe) argued that Orsino was not responsible for blood magic in Kirkwall and especially not responsible for Quentin's murders because, even if he knew Quentin was an apostate practicing potentially forbidden magic, he did not commit any of the crime himself.

The trouble I have with the Right of Annulment is that it is a blanket approach.  It is making the official determination that the circle is irredeemable.  I personally don't believe that any given mage being guilty as sin means the whole circle is irredeemable, even if that mage is Orsino.  Orsino is guilty, obviously.  And he alone should suffer whatever penalty is required for covering up for a murdering bastard who also happens to be a blood mage.  Orsino is guilty of standing by and allowing "bad stuff" to happen in the case of Quentin (not ALL blood magic).  It is exactly the same for me as Elthina - they each had a duty to act to protect others by virtue of their position and knowledge, and they failed.  I don't consider Orsino an innocent victim - especially when he goes harvester, but that's just lousy storytelling to me - in the exact same way that I don't consider Elthina an innocent victim.

One - I didn't kill Elthina,  Anders did, whether I helped him or not.   I would have forced her into retirement someplace where being spineless wouldn't matter.  I don't consider Elthina innocent in the least though, and I don't kill Anders for blowing up the Chantry.

Two - I would kill/punish circle mages who were provably guilty of actual crimes (and obviously any abominations present).  I don't buy Meredith's claim that we have to, RIGHT NOW!! kill every mage no matter what they actually did.

Three - the Templar and mage side are not equivalent in terms of just deciding if it is Meredith or Orsino that are guilty.  Only the Templar side and the Right of Annulment involve wiping out all of the opposing side for the crimes of an unknown proportion of the total.  There is no corresponding demand to consider every Templar to be corrupt and irredeemable and go through the Gallows wiping them out

Well, if we argue that Elthina was guilty of the crimes of Meredith through inaction, the by that standard Orsino must be guilty of the crimes of the blood mage he harboured.

I think there is something of a misunderstanding here.  I don't think we're saying Elthina/Orsino are guilty of the crimes that Meredith/Quentin committed.  Orsino and Elthina are guilty of the different but still really bad crimes of standing by and letting it happen.  There is murder, and there's accessory to murder.  They are not the same crimes, but committing them is still bad and still pretty much takes away the label "innocent bystander" as far as I'm concerned.

No, because refusing to do anything does not per se protect the status quo. Take a look at the fight for marriage equality: if the US government does nothing, at any level, eventually there will be marriage equality only through a popular movement. In the same way, not supporting extensive templar abuses can pave the way for reform.

Ok, so you talk about things in terms of eventually.  I suppose that's hard to argue, and in fact, Elthina did end up supporting mage freedom if you want to look at it all twisted up.  By doing nothing, she let things get so bad that the mages rose up and freed themselves.  I don't think that was her plan though.  She was supposed to protect citizens from mages and make sure the Templars weren't breaking Chantry law in their zeal to perform their duty.  She gives no indication that she is merely thinking long term, but rather she's just sitting on her thumbs for years on end, hoping somehow Meredith will suddenly become sane.  She had a responsibility to the mages and should have been able to figure out that crossing her fingers wasn't the answer.

[LobselVith8]

I'm surprised Meredith makes no mention of a mage Teyrn of Gwaren when she is confronting King Alistair, given the Chantry laws against mages inheriting a title or wealth. You'd think that having one of the two remaining teyrnirs of Ferelden in the hands of a mage who is likely going to have progeny with magical ability would be a problem she would address if she's willing to take him to task for a royal boom that was turned down several years ago (the Magi boon).

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm surprised Meredith makes no mention of a mage Teyrn of Gwaren when she is confronting King Alistair, given the Chantry laws against mages inheriting a title or wealth. You'd think that having one of the two remaining teyrnirs of Ferelden in the hands of a mage who is likely going to have progeny with magical ability would be a problem she would address if she's willing to take him to task for a royal boom that was turned down several years ago (the Magi boon).

Lob, that would mean a player choice actually mattered in DA2.  Can't have that.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

I did not argue that. I argued that the Chantry shares the blame for coming up with an awful system. Orsino specifically says he didn't turn in Quentin once he learned of his depravity because Meredith would use Quentin's crimes as ammunition against the Circle. The Chantry has a system where legal mages are discouraged from turning in maleficar. That's idiotic and a recipe for failure.

This is another reason why I have no respect for any position that argues that people should always behave morally no matter what, even under dire circumstances, on the rather flimsy argument that "giving in" causes them to forfeit the moral high ground.  Another spin on the "people always have choices" crap.  Expecting people to always and forever toe the line, whether in terms of legality or morality, no matter what society does to them, no matter how horrific things become, is about as unreasonable as you can get.  Yet another thing history is littered with: good people who live decently and uprightly and follow all the rules who still end up having to decide between a **** sandwich or a **** burrito. Making one choice can damn them in the eyes of their own people, the other one gets them labeled a terrorist or somesuch, but either one lead to just more suffering and death.  Which, exactly, is the right choice in that scenario?

Modifié par Silfren, 11 mai 2011 - 09:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emperor,

Yes it is. Knight LT Irminric had to give up his title of Bann to be a Templar in favor of his sister. Sebastian had to do the same to take vows as a cloistered brother. In order to persue his birthright, Sebastian had to renounce his vows to the Chantry.

-Polaris

That Irminric gave up his title does not equate that it is require of Templars by law. Sebastian wasn't trying to become a Templar, he was trying to be oddained as a Brother. There is a world of a difference.
But even if it were required. Meredith didn't take any other rank than Knight-Commander, so she didn't break any law.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm surprised Meredith makes no mention of a mage Teyrn of Gwaren when she is confronting King Alistair, given the Chantry laws against mages inheriting a title or wealth. You'd think that having one of the two remaining teyrnirs of Ferelden in the hands of a mage who is likely going to have progeny with magical ability would be a problem she would address if she's willing to take him to task for a royal boom that was turned down several years ago (the Magi boon).

It is a Grey Warden. She doesn't have authority over it, and they can barely have any children as it is. I'm guessing she thik she is in the safe here. Even then, if the Teyrn of Gwaren (your mage) was to have a mage child. Guess what, the Chantry would take it away. Yeah, Meredith doesn't have to worry about that, at all.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 mai 2011 - 08:59 .

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

Silfren,

I would argue in fact that the fact that Grand Cleric Elthina did NOT crack down on Meredith for abuse of power meant that she was negotiating in bad faith (I also recall the snippet where she said she had discussions with Orsino and Meredith). The fact remains (and I wanted to wring her scrawny neck because it's obvious and she failed to understand it), it takes TWO to be reasonable and negotiate, and Meredith was never reasonable and never wanted to negotiate....and because Elthina was always willing to cover for her (or at least turn a blind eye), she never had any incentive to negotiate.

-Polaris

That's a fair point, one I hadn't considered.  True, you can't be said to be negotiating in good faith under those circumstances, because the abuses that were going on is something of a separate issue from whether the mages should have been allowed greater freedom.  Which is why I reject the notion people have put forth, saying that Elthina would have been taking sides by requiring Meredith to stop the abuse, or else just have Knight-Commander Batcrazy removed.

[Realmzmaster]

I understand that mages which to be treated like everyone else with the same rights and privileges. But what do you do in a case like Meredith's sister who had magical talents as a child and her parents hid her away from the Circle. The child became demon possessed and turn into an abomination. The abomination slew all in her family save Meredith and then killed 70 villagers before it was bought down.

I do not know if Cullen is a bigot or seriously damaged by what he has gone through and seen. He makes an statement that could be considered bigoted. Mages are not like you and me.
But unfortunately there is a grain of truth in that.

One solution to keep families of mages together is that the parentst would have to supervise the child until a certain age and then send them to the Circle for training school in the daytime.The parents would be responsible for the child while at home and set up wards to protect the village or city. Appointed Circle mages would check on each student at home to ensure that the necessary safeguards are in place.
Once the mage has mastered themselves by going through the Harrowing they are allowed to take their place in society. The Circle would still monitor each mage. Each mage would be required to spend time monitoring other mages.. The Templars would still be kept as a force separate from the Chantry to hunt down mages who abuse their power. Those mages who abuse their power would be confined. If the deeds resulted in death a suitable punishment would be meted.
The use of lyrium would be stopped unless it is proven beyond a doubt that it enhances Templar abilities and not just to keep them addicted and in line.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emperor,

Yes it is. Knight LT Irminric had to give up his title of Bann to be a Templar in favor of his sister. Sebastian had to do the same to take vows as a cloistered brother. In order to persue his birthright, Sebastian had to renounce his vows to the Chantry.

-Polaris

That Irminric gave up his title does not equate that it is require of Templars by law. Sebastian wasn't trying to become a Templar, he was trying to be oddained as a Brother. There is a world of a difference.
But even if it were required. Meredith didn't take any other rank than Knight-Commander, so she didn't break any law.

Meredith was abrogating AUTHORITY that wasn't supposed to be hers.  That shows moral unfitness to hold the office she has and is very much grounds for dismissal.  Templars are NOT supposed to have secular authority.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm surprised Meredith makes no mention of a mage Teyrn of Gwaren when she is confronting King Alistair, given the Chantry laws against mages inheriting a title or wealth. You'd think that having one of the two remaining teyrnirs of Ferelden in the hands of a mage who is likely going to have progeny with magical ability would be a problem she would address if she's willing to take him to task for a royal boom that was turned down several years ago (the Magi boon).

It is a Grey Warden. She doesn't have authority over it, and they can barely have any children as it is. I'm guessing she thik she is in the safe here. Even then, if the Teyrn of Gwaren (your mage) was to have a mage child. Guess what, the Chantry would take it away. Yeah, Meredith doesn't have to worry about that, at all.

Like that would stop Meredith from complaining?  We already know that Templar Death Squads try to kill Anders and that was AFTER he joined the wardens and WHEN he was still a warden in good standing.  Templars also try to kill you in the circle tower if you are a maleficar....Grey Warden or no.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Meredith didn't have authority over the Magi boon, either, EmperorSahlertz, but she still mentioned it roughly six years after the Chantry said no. Also, David Gaider addressed the question of Grey Warden mages having children when he said only the children of Circle mages are taken by the Chantry. The children of Grey Wardens are not because they are not beholden to the Chantry.

[GavrielKay]

Beerfish wrote...

As I said above, Meredith was a **** was but not idol crazy uuntil after good old mage boy blew up the Chantry, tough for Elthina to do anything then as she floats into the sky.

No, she was crazy before the very end.  Cullen notes it to Hawke in a conversation.  He tells you that things have gotten worse in the last few years and he's not even sure if supporting Meredith and the Templar order are still the same thing.

[Well]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I understand that mages which to be treated like everyone else with the same rights and privileges. But what do you do in a case like Meredith's sister who had magical talents as a child and her parents hid her away from the Circle. The child became demon possessed and turn into an abomination. The abomination slew all in her family save Meredith and then killed 70 villagers before it was bought down.

I do not know if Cullen is a bigot or seriously damaged by what he has gone through and seen. He makes an statement that could be considered bigoted. Mages are not like you and me.
But unfortunately there is a grain of truth in that.

One solution to keep families of mages together is that the parentst would have to supervise the child until a certain age and then send them to the Circle for training school in the daytime.The parents would be responsible for the child while at home and set up wards to protect the village or city. Appointed Circle mages would check on each student at home to ensure that the necessary safeguards are in place.
Once the mage has mastered themselves by going through the Harrowing they are allowed to take their place in society. The Circle would still monitor each mage. Each mage would be required to spend time monitoring other mages.. The Templars would still be kept as a force separate from the Chantry to hunt down mages who abuse their power. Those mages who abuse their power would be confined. If the deeds resulted in death a suitable punishment would be meted.
The use of lyrium would be stopped unless it is proven beyond a doubt that it enhances Templar abilities and not just to keep them addicted and in line.

Actually if you talk to him after the Harrowing in DAO he talked about him being assigned the one to deliver the death blow.When you said something to the effect I thought templars enjoyed it.He says something about some do  but he does it with a heavy heart.

[Well]

GavrielKay wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

As I said above, Meredith was a **** was but not idol crazy uuntil after good old mage boy blew up the Chantry, tough for Elthina to do anything then as she floats into the sky.

No, she was crazy before the very end.  Cullen notes it to Hawke in a conversation.  He tells you that things have gotten worse in the last few years and he's not even sure if supporting Meredith and the Templar order are still the same thing.

Yes but that had more to do with her being a zealot.If she was crazy she wouldnt be asking the champion for a alternative.When the three are on the steps.

[erilben]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm surprised Meredith makes no mention of a mage Teyrn of Gwaren when she is confronting King Alistair, given the Chantry laws against mages inheriting a title or wealth. You'd think that having one of the two remaining teyrnirs of Ferelden in the hands of a mage who is likely going to have progeny with magical ability would be a problem she would address if she's willing to take him to task for a royal boom that was turned down several years ago (the Magi boon).

Lob, that would mean a player choice actually mattered in DA2.  Can't have that.

-Polaris

There's not even a flag for the Gwaren boon in the world vault. Only mage, Dalish and Chancellor have flags. It's why the Gibbed save creator only let's pick one of those three boons.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


It is a Grey Warden. She doesn't have authority over it, and they can barely have any children as it is. I'm guessing she thik she is in the safe here. Even then, if the Teyrn of Gwaren (your mage) was to have a mage child. Guess what, the Chantry would take it away. Yeah, Meredith doesn't have to worry about that, at all.

Mages are forbidden from owning titles or lands according to Chantry law.  I somehow don't think the Chantry would be okay with a mage being permitted to flout that law simply for being a Grey Warden.  Not when Grey Wardens are also not supposed to hold titles or lands, and the Chantry's toleration of mages among Grey Warden ranks seems to be rather grudging at best.  So I don't think that's a sound argument for Meredith not complaining about a King ignoring a Chantry prohibition. 

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


It is a Grey Warden. She doesn't have authority over it, and they can barely have any children as it is. I'm guessing she thik she is in the safe here. Even then, if the Teyrn of Gwaren (your mage) was to have a mage child. Guess what, the Chantry would take it away. Yeah, Meredith doesn't have to worry about that, at all.

Mages are forbidden from owning titles or lands according to Chantry law.  I somehow don't think the Chantry would be okay with a mage being permitted to flout that law simply for being a Grey Warden.  Not when Grey Wardens are also not supposed to hold titles or lands, and the Chantry's toleration of mages among Grey Warden ranks seems to be rather grudging at best.  So I don't think that's a sound argument for Meredith not complaining about a King ignoring a Chantry prohibition. 

We never see it, but if the Hero of Fereldan is a mage, and is named Warden Commander (and thus Acting Arl of Amaranthine), I would think there would be some choice words between the Divine and Knight Vigalent and the First Warden.

That might explain, however, why the First Warden hung Anders out to dry.....to appease the Chantry.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But even if it were required. Meredith didn't take any other rank than Knight-Commander, so she didn't break any law.

Perhaps we weren't playing the same game.  I recall Meredith telling Hawke that Meredith was going to remain in charge until Meredith was convinced the city was safe.  Also, there were Templars stationed all over the Viscount's palace and a Templar trying to convince Aveline to give over command of the guards to the Templars.  Surely you aren't going to argue from the standpoint of mere titles when the actuality is that Meredith was acting Viscount?

[Silfren]

Well wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I understand that mages which to be treated like everyone else with the same rights and privileges. But what do you do in a case like Meredith's sister who had magical talents as a child and her parents hid her away from the Circle. The child became demon possessed and turn into an abomination. The abomination slew all in her family save Meredith and then killed 70 villagers before it was bought down.

I do not know if Cullen is a bigot or seriously damaged by what he has gone through and seen. He makes an statement that could be considered bigoted. Mages are not like you and me.
But unfortunately there is a grain of truth in that.

One solution to keep families of mages together is that the parentst would have to supervise the child until a certain age and then send them to the Circle for training school in the daytime.The parents would be responsible for the child while at home and set up wards to protect the village or city. Appointed Circle mages would check on each student at home to ensure that the necessary safeguards are in place.
Once the mage has mastered themselves by going through the Harrowing they are allowed to take their place in society. The Circle would still monitor each mage. Each mage would be required to spend time monitoring other mages.. The Templars would still be kept as a force separate from the Chantry to hunt down mages who abuse their power. Those mages who abuse their power would be confined. If the deeds resulted in death a suitable punishment would be meted.
The use of lyrium would be stopped unless it is proven beyond a doubt that it enhances Templar abilities and not just to keep them addicted and in line.

Actually if you talk to him after the Harrowing in DAO he talked about him being assigned the one to deliver the death blow.When you said something to the effect I thought templars enjoyed it.He says something about some do  but he does it with a heavy heart.

Uh, yeah, if you're trying to use that to argue against Cullen's bigotry or something...that was before Uldred tortured him.  His opinion of mages prior to that incident is irrelevant, given that when you talk to him in Broken Circle, he makes it vividly plain that he now believes otherwise, and radically so.

[Rifneno]

Well wrote...

Actually if you talk to him after the Harrowing in DAO he talked about him being assigned the one to deliver the death blow.When you said something to the effect I thought templars enjoyed it.He says something about some do  but he does it with a heavy heart.

Yes but that had more to do with her being a zealot.If she was crazy she wouldnt be asking the champion for a alternative.When the three are on the steps.

1.  That was before Uldred magically caged and tormented him for giggles, at which point he snapped like a twig.  He says on multiple occasions in DA2 that that experience radically altered his view of mages.
2.  Do you think the lyrium idol thing was just an explanation for her cool sword graphic?  The last person that thing affected wound up feeding people their own fingers so they could "hear the song."  You think it doesn't effect her?

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


It is a Grey Warden. She doesn't have authority over it, and they can barely have any children as it is. I'm guessing she thik she is in the safe here. Even then, if the Teyrn of Gwaren (your mage) was to have a mage child. Guess what, the Chantry would take it away. Yeah, Meredith doesn't have to worry about that, at all.

Mages are forbidden from owning titles or lands according to Chantry law.  I somehow don't think the Chantry would be okay with a mage being permitted to flout that law simply for being a Grey Warden.  Not when Grey Wardens are also not supposed to hold titles or lands, and the Chantry's toleration of mages among Grey Warden ranks seems to be rather grudging at best.  So I don't think that's a sound argument for Meredith not complaining about a King ignoring a Chantry prohibition. 

True Grey Wardens aren't supposed to hold lands, but that was the point of Awakening. To show that Grey Wardens are always needed and can be involved in politics without jeopardizing their neutrality. And besides, the Warden-Commander had Seneschal Varel to defer to anytime he felt in necessary, making Varel the de-facto Arl of Amaranthine when asked.

[GavrielKay]

Well wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

As I said above, Meredith was a **** was but not idol crazy uuntil after good old mage boy blew up the Chantry, tough for Elthina to do anything then as she floats into the sky.

No, she was crazy before the very end.  Cullen notes it to Hawke in a conversation.  He tells you that things have gotten worse in the last few years and he's not even sure if supporting Meredith and the Templar order are still the same thing.

Yes but that had more to do with her being a zealot.If she was crazy she wouldnt be asking the champion for a alternative.When the three are on the steps.

No, she was a zealot from the beginning.  Cullen specifically notes that it is different and worse in recent years - i.e. once she has possession of the idol.

[Silfren]

Rifneno wrote...

2.  Do you think the lyrium idol thing was just an explanation for her cool sword graphic?  The last person that thing affected wound up feeding people their own fingers so they could "hear the song."  You think it doesn't effect her?

OT, but one of the reasons I hold out (possibly futile, naive, and vain) hope for DA3 is because I swear there's a connection between lyrium and the darkspawn taint, or else a connection between lyrium and Old Gods.

[Cyakura]

 I always sided with Mages, even had a post about it. Playing the game few times and doing few choices differently makes you see things which are new. Finally came to conclusion is what you really want to happen. 
1. You promised your sister that this will be their home.. no choice but to side with the lesser of 2 evils, which are templers. You get to stay home and even more. Your sister got her home and, since ending not very well written, you would think she is free. Maybe she becomes  mage conusel, maybe new first enchanter god knows.

2. If you cared for your mother, again siding with templers is right way. On quest the all that remains, you see clearly that Orsino supported that mage ( now forgot his bloody name) that killed your mother. Orsino sent him all he needed and wanted to be kept updated.

3. If you care for Kirkwall and majority of your companions , again better to follow templers. Varric does not loose his tavern, Aveline stays with her hubby as Knight captain.

4. Freedom for mages, then ofcourse side with Orsino and give them freedom. One thing is for certain, Kirkwall mages are all using blood magic, cause of how badly they were treated. I do not say it is wrong, cause when someone is pushed so hard against the wall, will use any means necessary. But now all of that survived are loose in the world.

Any side you choose, Merideth dies at the end. So I came to strong conclusion ( totally opposite of what I posted before) is to choose templers. You gain much more than what you loose, taking in to account that you are not thinking only of yourself.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


It is a Grey Warden. She doesn't have authority over it, and they can barely have any children as it is. I'm guessing she thik she is in the safe here. Even then, if the Teyrn of Gwaren (your mage) was to have a mage child. Guess what, the Chantry would take it away. Yeah, Meredith doesn't have to worry about that, at all.

Mages are forbidden from owning titles or lands according to Chantry law.  I somehow don't think the Chantry would be okay with a mage being permitted to flout that law simply for being a Grey Warden.  Not when Grey Wardens are also not supposed to hold titles or lands, and the Chantry's toleration of mages among Grey Warden ranks seems to be rather grudging at best.  So I don't think that's a sound argument for Meredith not complaining about a King ignoring a Chantry prohibition. 

True Grey Wardens aren't supposed to hold lands, but that was the point of Awakening. To show that Grey Wardens are always needed and can be involved in politics without jeopardizing their neutrality. And besides, the Warden-Commander had Seneschal Varel to defer to anytime he felt in necessary, making Varel the de-facto Arl of Amaranthine when asked.

That doesn't mean that the Chantry--or the general populace and nobility, for that matter--are going to be thrilled with the sudden disregard for centuries of tradition and law.  And Varel being the "acting" arl whenever asked isn't going to change the Warden Commander's own actual position.

[IanPolaris]

Cyakura wrote...

Any side you choose, Merideth dies at the end. So I came to strong conclusion ( totally opposite of what I posted before) is to choose templers. You gain much more than what you loose, taking in to account that you are not thinking only of yourself.

Sure and the only price is you have to support and abet genocide.

Sorry, the price is too high.

-Polaris