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[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Cyakura wrote...

No matter how much we all debate here, it all comes down to our personal liking of how we want the end to be.. and guess the choice we make will effect, hopefully, the next edition of DA.. if there ever will be one.

Indeed. 

I do want to be a seeker in the next game. 

If we are required to be Chantry Stooges (Seekers) in the next game, than I won't buy the next game.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

Well what if you're given the option to turn traitor on the Chantry from the inside because you don't agree with them? Or you infiltrated their ranks because you're an ally of the mages and you sabotage any effort they make to rebuild the Chantry?

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If you don't know the difference between me myself being neutral and my Hawkes being neutral I don't know what to say. 

And that last sentence...right. There's a reason I usually ignore your posts. 

1.  Quick, better edit this one!  http://social.biowar...4917/67#7352295

2.  Ditto.

*gasps* You mean Real Life isn't Dragon Age?

OMFG NO WAI! 

Maybe you should bother reading instead of assuming someone's position. The bit I bolded in particular that my post was in response to. Just sayin'

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 10:22 .

[IanPolaris]

Cyakura wrote...

I think you are taking these issues way too personally.. But I can not say I blame you.. I almost stopped playing this game cause could not kill Merrill But now all is good.. just as someone advised me.. enjoy it as a game.. and things you do not like.. just ignore.. and that is what I am doing.. and enjoying my game )

I play to have fun.  I don't think playing a person I despise for an organization I find to be despicable is a good way to have fun personally.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

GavrielKay wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Actually, since Hawke came to Kirkwall.  She doesn't get the idol from Bartrand until 4 years later.  I think he actually says that when the idol hasn't even been discovered yet.  I always wondered if that was a dialogue error or a hint at something we haven't figured out yet.

I'm pretty sure the conversation I remember with Cullen is in Act 2 or early in Act 3 after it's quite possible that Meredith has possession of the idol.  He may say other things, but there's on I'm thinking of in particular where he mentions Meredith has become noticeably worse.  He's a zealot himself, so it would take something more for him to wonder about Meredith.

OK, I found it. 

Early in Act 2, you can start up a non-quest related conversation with Cullen.  If you tell him that you'd like to meet Meredth he replies to the effect of...  She's become very reclusive these last 3 years.  She's very suspicious of outsiders.  He follows with "I almost wonder if something happened."

Cullen can hardly be considered a mage sympathizer, so if he thinks Meredith is suspicious, I think it has to be more than she's just a zealot.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
How does a Circle Mage benefit from you killing all of her friends in front of her, killing the First Enchanter in front of her, and possibly killing her? The former two will cause psychological trauma, especially since her brother/sister is the one doing the killing.

She's free of the suspicion of being a bloodmage. And as for te former 2 plenty of things which should cause psychological trauma in Dragon Age don't tend to. But even if it does. She'll live. 

Ryzaki wrote...
Necromancy is from the spirit school of magic you know. Animate dead and all that. And since the Spirit school is allowed to be taught, it seems that blood magic is a part of the Spirit school (this is just my personal speculative opinion mind you). And Quentin was insane. Orsino had no way of knowing what Quentin's intentions were at first. We also don't know [b]when Orsino actually sent that letter. Was there a date on it? No. We don't know when Quentin went rogue mage and started his research.

And those books on necromancy and bloodmagic were still forbidden books (take Aveline along and she'll say the Templars would want those confiscated). Quentin was inane sure but Orsino had to have an inkling because Quentin was sending him research on what he was doing. So either Orsino is guilty or Elthina is blameless. Can't have it both ways. As for the letter. If it was significantly aged I'm sure there would've been mention of it. 

Not to mention bloodmage or not Orsino was helping a apostate bloodmage do who knows what without knowing? That's even worse .

Varric doesn't even own the tavern and the guard do their job properly regardless of who you side with. Aveline says that the Templars will receive no help from the Guard as they are too busy protecting the citizens. Technically Anders committed an act. That was it. The mess itself started when KC Meredith decided that now that she could call for a RoA, it was time to commit genocide on the mages when they were innocent of the crime, the Circle was NOT beyond saving, and her own personal bias against mages would be fulfilled. She even sent word for the RoA long before Anders' act was committed. She didn't invoke the RoA to avenge Elthina, she did it because with Elthina out of the way she could do it without anyone stopping her.

He lives there and while the guard does their job properly regardless they have less collateral damage to deal with if Hawke kill the mages fighting the templars in the city. Anders committed an act of terrorism. That was it. The mess started when Meredith went bonkers. So yes while Meredith's invocation of the RoA wasn't appropriate it was justified. There are bloodmages in the circle, they are using bloodthralls and terrorising citizens. 

You have no way of knowing that these mages will cause any damage. Didn't you see in the cinematic of the RoA how no mage even used blood magic? They all used regular magic and got slaughtered.

You mean those bloodmages that I fought that charmed templars into fighting me? Those mages won't cause any damage? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith didn't have authority over the Magi boon, either, EmperorSahlertz, but she still mentioned it roughly six years after the Chantry said no. Also, David Gaider addressed the question of Grey Warden mages having children when he said only the children of Circle mages are taken by the Chantry. The children of Grey Wardens are not because they are not beholden to the Chantry.

Children are by default taken from Circle mages, and not Grey Wardens. Mage children of Grey Wardens on the other hand, would probably still be taken.
A Grey Warden mage is allowed to keep their children, but if they show magical ability, they are taken away, just like anyone else.

[Silfren]

Well wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Well wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I understand that mages which to be treated like everyone else with the same rights and privileges. But what do you do in a case like Meredith's sister who had magical talents as a child and her parents hid her away from the Circle. The child became demon possessed and turn into an abomination. The abomination slew all in her family save Meredith and then killed 70 villagers before it was bought down.

I do not know if Cullen is a bigot or seriously damaged by what he has gone through and seen. He makes an statement that could be considered bigoted. Mages are not like you and me.
But unfortunately there is a grain of truth in that.

One solution to keep families of mages together is that the parentst would have to supervise the child until a certain age and then send them to the Circle for training school in the daytime.The parents would be responsible for the child while at home and set up wards to protect the village or city. Appointed Circle mages would check on each student at home to ensure that the necessary safeguards are in place.
Once the mage has mastered themselves by going through the Harrowing they are allowed to take their place in society. The Circle would still monitor each mage. Each mage would be required to spend time monitoring other mages.. The Templars would still be kept as a force separate from the Chantry to hunt down mages who abuse their power. Those mages who abuse their power would be confined. If the deeds resulted in death a suitable punishment would be meted.
The use of lyrium would be stopped unless it is proven beyond a doubt that it enhances Templar abilities and not just to keep them addicted and in line.

Actually if you talk to him after the Harrowing in DAO he talked about him being assigned the one to deliver the death blow.When you said something to the effect I thought templars enjoyed it.He says something about some do  but he does it with a heavy heart.

Uh, yeah, if you're trying to use that to argue against Cullen's bigotry or something...that was before Uldred tortured him.  His opinion of mages prior to that incident is irrelevant, given that when you talk to him in Broken Circle, he makes it vividly plain that he now believes otherwise, and radically so.

It was in reference to this.
"I do not know if Cullen is a bigot or seriously damaged by what he has
gone through and seen. He makes an statement that could be considered
bigoted. Mages are not like you and me.
But unfortunately there is a grain of truth in that."

Also in that thread about mages are not like you and me you can dialog with Cullen talking about better educationing
the mages on the Chantrys position.

I'm well aware that's what it was in reference to.  That's what I based on comment on.  You saying "actually..." seems to be trying to argue that Cullen is sympathetic to the mages and doesn't take pleasure in killing them.  I was pointing out that that was his viewpoint BEFORE he was tortured by Uldred, after which we're shown that he quite bluntly and loudly has had a complete change of heart. 

I'm not sure what you mean about his talking about better educating the mages, because his whole statement there is hardly doing him any favors. 

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith didn't have authority over the Magi boon, either, EmperorSahlertz, but she still mentioned it roughly six years after the Chantry said no. Also, David Gaider addressed the question of Grey Warden mages having children when he said only the children of Circle mages are taken by the Chantry. The children of Grey Wardens are not because they are not beholden to the Chantry.

Children are by default taken from Circle mages, and not Grey Wardens. Mage children of Grey Wardens on the other hand, would probably still be taken.
A Grey Warden mage is allowed to keep their children, but if they show magical ability, they are taken away, just like anyone else.

Maybe.  I think that's what they'd call a "dicey" proposition.  Technically Templars are supposed to take young Dalish Children into the circles too according to the letter of Chantry Law...but I don't see too many Knight Commanders or Knight Vigilants trying to enforce that.  Dalish hunters are ferocious and the manpower needed would be....excessive......

If you think that Dalish hunters are bad enough, I don't think the Templars would care to cross the wardens especially given how rare warden children are already.......

-Polaris

[Well]

IanPolaris wrote...

Cyakura wrote...

I think you are taking these issues way too personally.. But I can not say I blame you.. I almost stopped playing this game cause could not kill Merrill But now all is good.. just as someone advised me.. enjoy it as a game.. and things you do not like.. just ignore.. and that is what I am doing.. and enjoying my game )

I play to have fun.  I don't think playing a person I despise for an organization I find to be despicable is a good way to have fun personally.

-Polaris

I can understand that.I never used Sten and always killed Anders.He would of been dead when he killed Ella but the game wouldnt let me do it.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

She's free of the suspicion of being a bloodmage. And as for te former 2 plenty of things which should cause psychological trauma in Dragon Age don't tend to. But even if it does. She'll live. 

I still think it's a developer cheat to allow you to save those 3 mages during the RoA.  They wanted more players to take the Templar side. 

The lore says the RoA is a complete annihilation of the circle.  Every last mage is considered beyond redemption and killed outright.

[Silfren]

Cyakura wrote...


I think you are taking these issues way too personally.. But I can not say I blame you.. I almost stopped playing this game cause could not kill Merrill But now all is good.. just as someone advised me.. enjoy it as a game.. and things you do not like.. just ignore.. and that is what I am doing.. and enjoying my game )

I almost jumped ship when I wasn't allowed to murderknife Sebastian for threatening to raze Kirkwall to the ground because I wouldn't kill someone on his say so.  That was what I considered the last straw, personally.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
I still think it's a developer cheat to allow you to save those 3 mages during the RoA.  They wanted more players to take the Templar side.  

The lore says the RoA is a complete annihilation of the circle.  Every last mage is considered beyond redemption and killed outright.

I think it's a developer cheat for the people who support mages to be able to walk away alive. (Not even getting into Meredith's sword making her turn into flaming lyrium) 

That's true. But we've only see one RoA in action (or two depending on if you did it in origins). That's really not enough evidence to say how they're usually done. What something says and what tends to actually happen tend to be different things. And all the Codexes have bias. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 10:27 .

[IanPolaris]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

She's free of the suspicion of being a bloodmage. And as for te former 2 plenty of things which should cause psychological trauma in Dragon Age don't tend to. But even if it does. She'll live. 

I still think it's a developer cheat to allow you to save those 3 mages during the RoA.  They wanted more players to take the Templar side. 

The lore says the RoA is a complete annihilation of the circle.  Every last mage is considered beyond redemption and killed outright.

Indeed. I have (and have had) some harsher words for this.  I consider it borderline dishonestly on the side of the writers...a way that you can side with the Genocidal Templars, but not have to have that icky Genocidal aftertaste.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 11 mai 2011 - 10:27 .

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

I think it's a developer cheat for the people who support mages to be able to walk away alive. 

True enough.  It could have been the equivalent of the Ultimate Sacrifice ending in DAO.  Hawke fights to the death to allow the mages time to escape.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I still think it's a developer cheat to allow you to save those 3 mages during the RoA.  They wanted more players to take the Templar side.  

The lore says the RoA is a complete annihilation of the circle.  Every last mage is considered beyond redemption and killed outright.

I think it's a developer cheat for the people who support mages to be able to walk away alive. 

That's true. But we've only see one RoA in action (or two depending on if you did it in origins). That's really not enough evidence to say how they're usually done. What something says and what tends to actually happen tend to be different things. And all the Codexes have bias. 

There is plenty of evidence in the Codex and from the various people you talk to (including Knight Capt Cullen who ought to know).  If you side with the Templars in Fereldan ALL mages die....including those cute kids with Wynne.  This is the law and the rule.  I haven't said that.  DG speaking in WoG mode has said that...so we DO know how RoAs are supposed to work.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

She's free of the suspicion of being a bloodmage. And as for te former 2 plenty of things which should cause psychological trauma in Dragon Age don't tend to. But even if it does. She'll live. 

Um.  Not if you're going with the logic that all the Circle mages are suspected of blood magic or whatever rationale is used to justify the Annulment.  She's part of the Circle, so if it follows that the Circle must be purged, that includes her.  If the other mages are under suspicion of blood magic, then so is she.  And in the end, you see that Meredith is only too happy to follow through with killing Bethany.  Hawke has the option to stop her, but there it is.  If you're claiming that the Circle must be annulled because the mere suspicion of blood magic condemns them as being beyond redemption, then you can't exempt Bethany from that ruling.

[GavrielKay]

IanPolaris wrote...

There is plenty of evidence in the Codex and from the various people you talk to (including Knight Capt Cullen who ought to know).  If you side with the Templars in Fereldan ALL mages die....including those cute kids with Wynne.  This is the law and the rule.  I haven't said that.  DG speaking in WoG mode has said that...so we DO know how RoAs are supposed to work.

-Polaris

This.

You have to meta-game to think about saving mages.  The definition is such that you couldn't expect Cullen to bring out Bethany and give you the chance to save her.  You make the decision thinking the mages will all die.

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...
There is plenty of evidence in the Codex and from the various people you talk to (including Knight Capt Cullen who ought to know).  If you side with the Templars in Fereldan ALL mages die....including those cute kids with Wynne.  This is the law and the rule.  I haven't said that.  DG speaking in WoG mode has said that...so we DO know how RoAs are supposed to work.

-Polaris

And there's the rub. How something's "supposed" to work and how something actually works can be two different things.

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

She's free of the suspicion of being a bloodmage. And as for te former 2 plenty of things which should cause psychological trauma in Dragon Age don't tend to. But even if it does. She'll live. 

Um.  Not if you're going with the logic that all the Circle mages are suspected of blood magic or whatever rationale is used to justify the Annulment.  She's part of the Circle, so if it follows that the Circle must be purged, that includes her.  If the other mages are under suspicion of blood magic, then so is she.  And in the end, you see that Meredith is only too happy to follow through with killing Bethany.  Hawke has the option to stop her, but there it is.  If you're claiming that the Circle must be annulled because the mere suspicion of blood magic condemns them as being beyond redemption, then you can't exempt Bethany from that ruling.

You can if you're a complete hypocrit and only used the Templars to try go gain power for yourself.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...
Um.  Not if you're going with the logic that all the Circle mages are suspected of blood magic or whatever rationale is used to justify the Annulment.  She's part of the Circle, so if it follows that the Circle must be purged, that includes her.  If the other mages are under suspicion of blood magic, then so is she.  And in the end, you see that Meredith is only too happy to follow through with killing Bethany.  Hawke has the option to stop her, but there it is.  If you're claiming that the Circle must be annulled because the mere suspicion of blood magic condemns them as being beyond redemption, then you can't exempt Bethany from that ruling.

Except that's not logic I'm using. I'm using the logic that someone high ranking in the Circle is supporting bloodmagic. Bethany isn't high ranking.  

So she's not under suspicion to my Hawke. A convient blindspot but one's that there and can easily exempt Bethany. 

Though is that "you" me or Elthina? Since "you" can mean her.  Just to make sure my reading comprehension is up to your "accurate" standards. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 10:34 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
There is plenty of evidence in the Codex and from the various people you talk to (including Knight Capt Cullen who ought to know).  If you side with the Templars in Fereldan ALL mages die....including those cute kids with Wynne.  This is the law and the rule.  I haven't said that.  DG speaking in WoG mode has said that...so we DO know how RoAs are supposed to work.

-Polaris

And there's the rub. How something's "supposed" to work and how something actually works can be two different things.

Take it up with DG.  He was very clear and was speaking in clear WoG mode.  A RoA requires that ALL mages be elminated.  Capture is not an option although if a mage somehow survives, tranquility might be an option but only might.  In short, no circle mage in an RoA is permitted to survive....as a mage at least. 

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...
Take it up with DG.  He was very clear and was speaking in clear WoG mode.  A RoA requires that ALL mages be elminated.  Capture is not an option although if a mage somehow survives, tranquility might be an option but only might.  In short, no circle mage in an RoA is permitted to survive....as a mage at least.  

-Polaris

Except he's not wrong. He said how they were supposed to work. He didn't claim that was how they all worked period. 

There's nothing to take up. 

The RoA in Kirkwall wasn't a normal RoA. That much was made clear early on. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 10:37 .

[LobselVith8]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux, I would say that it seems like the Dalish were killed in the Hinterlands (and I think it's due to conflict with neighboring humans), based on the dialogue King Alistair says to Merrill. Although Alistair says he will make it up to her people because of The (Dalish) Warden, I'm not certain how he plans to pull it off.

As for the emancipation of the Circle, not only does the Chantry say no, but Leliana makes a vague reference about what happened in Ferelden in "Faith." I know IanPolaris posed a question about this to Gaider, and he didn't provide an answer except to say we didn't know, but it doesn't sound good.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Take it up with DG.  He was very clear and was speaking in clear WoG mode.  A RoA requires that ALL mages be elminated.  Capture is not an option although if a mage somehow survives, tranquility might be an option but only might.  In short, no circle mage in an RoA is permitted to survive....as a mage at least.  

-Polaris

Except he's not wrong. He said how they were supposed to work. He didn't claim that was how they all worked period. 

There's nothing to take up. 

You are metagaming.  When you made the decision, there is NO reason to assume that Meredith is going to tolerate anything less than total execution of all circle mages and that IS the law.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

So she's not under suspicion to my Hawke. A convient blindspot but one's that there and can easily exempt Bethany. 

If you believe that you can tell who the innocent and guilty mages are, and if Cullen believes that he can tell who the innocent and guilty mages are - then the Right of Annulment has been called illegally.  The RoA is only used where every single mare in the circle must be considered beyond redemption - either because you can't tell the difference or because the bad ones have already killed/blood magiced the good ones into thralls.

If you think Hawke can pick and choose who's innocent or guilty then you should not be in favor of the RoA but rather of a DAO style clean up where we save those we can and kill the rest.