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[Xilizhra]

Meredith saved Hawke from being minorly dinged up by a Saarebas. It just looked dramatic.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 mai 2011 - 11:39 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
 Regardless of how you view Hawke, he does have a reputation for killing, which includes abominations and the most powerful of the Pride Demons.

Well a Sarebaas almost killed him in Act 2.

Speaking of which, maybe someone can RP a Hawke that sides with Meredith out of debt. She saved his life, so like a Wookie, he thinks he should help her or at least not fight her.

I hate that scene. 

First off my crew wouldn't be clumped together like that right after a battle. Second off my Hawke would've noticed that electiricty spark. I have him paranoid about it because it knocked him off his ass and nearly got him killed before then. 

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...


What browser are you using? I'm using the latest Opera. I don't know why it does this.  

True. I actually hope for some negatve impact. As it is Bethany's...too peaceful. I want some RAGE. 

.

Internet Explorer. Does the problem maybe have anything to do with the Bioware Servers or something? I don't know much about this sort of thing.

It would make the game a tad better to see some impact on it. If you side with the Templars and spare her, you traumatize her. That alone would make some people like the game more.

 
Maybe it was banned? I don't know...I know Aveline mentioned the templars wanting them confisicated. And Anders' also mentions the templars not wanting someoneto have the books. Going by that I'd say they were illegal or only meant for certain hands (like Orsino's). 

I'd say they were meant for Circle mage eyes only, and the fact that they were outside the Templars jurisdiction is the problem. But for now.... meh....

Maker no?  Ah Seb. Your misery amuses me so. I find her guilty of not doing her damn job. She didn't deserve to die for it (no one deserves to be killed other than those that kill others) but she should've been fired a long time ago. 

definitely. Leliana, being the left hand of the Divine, should've done something. So I pin more blame on the doddering old biddy that is the Divine.

That's kind of depressing but fits in with he whole "the greatest thing one can do is sacrifice themself for another" thing. 

It would make her a better character than she currently is
 

Yeah it's a bit iffy. Orsino really shouldn't have been helping him in the first place. And the whole bloodmagic and necromancy and I can't really buy Orsino being ignorant. He's either a villian or a fool and frankly I rather him be a villian...then again he's still kind of a fool with turning into Harvester and attacking his own allies. 

It was ******-poor development work that did that. I've posted on a few threads a few ways Orsino's situation there could've been handled better, and people have responded that they would've preferred my ways over what they were given.

I see Orsino as maybe a tragic hero. As Aristotle said:


"the hero's misfortune is not brought about by vice and depravity but by some error of judgment."

NERD RAGE.  

That said yes I would've liked Meredith to atleast attempt to kill Anders. Maybe have Hawke stop her if the player wanted to. 

.

exactly. it's pretty obvious the things that should've been done in this game for certain scenarios.

My issue with that is the mages are taught time and time again that demons will always trip you up. They know this. They've faced this before (the harrowing) and yet they do it anyway! I give the non-mage companions a little more leeway because they're not used to it. But...Merrill has no excuse. 

As for not being strong enough to resist temptation that is true. The problem istheir inability to resist affects far more than just themselves so I will condemn them for it. What they did as only human and its understandable however I still can't be neutral on it because they endanger others with their actions. 

Well, Merrill explains that although she wanted to not believe the spirit of Pride, it was like he was pulling at her heart and forcing her to believe (akin to the Broken Circle Fade portion).

She knows how to defend herself, and I think she's the smartest person with knowledge of the arcane that we've met. Save for Morrigan and Flemeth of course. Oh and Flemeth is the Dumat OGB. Rifneno and I have come to this conclusion that this is canon.

But I'd rather not end up turning this into a debate on Merrill. I support her in her goal to restore the Eluvian and think she's right and Marethari's wrong.

And a lot of people blame the mages being weak of willpower on the fact that it's Kirkwall.

[Xilizhra]

Well, Merrill explains that although she wanted to not believe the spirit of Pride, it was like he was pulling at her heart and forcing her to believe (akin to the Broken Circle Fade portion).

In other words, mind control. Merrill wasn't to blame in the slightest. The only person who can resist it is himself a spirit.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, Merrill explains that although she wanted to not believe the spirit of Pride, it was like he was pulling at her heart and forcing her to believe (akin to the Broken Circle Fade portion).

In other words, mind control. Merrill wasn't to blame in the slightest. The only person who can resist it is himself a spirit.

pretty much.

[GavrielKay]

LobselVith8 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

That's my problem with Merrill and the idea that she is putting only herself at risk.

Merrill asks Hawke to kill her if she becomes an abomination. Regardless of how you view Hawke, he does have a reputation for killing, which includes abominations and the most powerful of the Pride Demons. I'm not exactly sure what dangers she faced in dealing with a demon who was trapped inside a totem by ancient elven magic, since Marethari thought that Audacity would escape from the Eluvian being restored.

During her final quest that is true.  I still wonder about her willingness to deal with demons in general.  And once her plot armor came off, she betrayed me pretty easily in Feynriel's dream.

I know Merrill is super popular among some players, and I think she's cute, but I don't trust her just because in one instance she asks me to kill her if necessary.

Anyway, Merrill is a whole different topic 

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Internet Explorer. Does the problem maybe have anything to do with the Bioware Servers or something? I don't know much about this sort of thing.

It would make the game a tad better to see some impact on it. If you side with the Templars and spare her, you traumatize her. That alone would make some people like the game more.

Hm...most likely. 

It would. Plus I liked Angry!Bethany on the Warden path. I wanted to see a bit more of her. 

 
I'd say they were meant for Circle mage eyes only, and the fact that they were outside the Templars jurisdiction is the problem. But for now.... meh....

True..

definitely. Leliana, being the left hand of the Divine, should've done something. So I pin more blame on the doddering old biddy that is the Divine.

I think the Divine just wanted an excuse to call a Divine March. She seems a bit of a b****. <_<

It would make her a better character than she currently is
 

Yeah a lot more tragic and self -sacrificing. As it is she's just kind of there...

It was ******-poor development work that did that. I've posted on a few threads a few ways Orsino's situation there could've been handled better, and people have responded that they would've preferred my ways over what they were given.

I see Orsino as maybe a tragic hero. As Aristotle said:


"the hero's misfortune is not brought about by vice and depravity but by some error of judgment."

You mind posting that for me? I'd be interested in reading it. (I'm not as mean as some of my posts suggest really!) 

And yeah that is a good quote. 

exactly. it's pretty obvious the things that should've been done in this game for certain scenarios.

Like Hawke giving some of the CMs tactical advice.  "Guys...let's SPAM the chokepoint with fireballs! That's a good idea! Standing around and waiting for them to cut us down is not a good idea!" 

Well, Merrill explains that although she wanted to not believe the spirit of Pride, it was like he was pulling at her heart and forcing her to believe (akin to the Broken Circle Fade portion).

She knows how to defend herself, and I think she's the smartest person with knowledge of the arcane that we've met. Save for Morrigan and Flemeth of course. Oh and Flemeth is the Dumat OGB. Rifneno and I have come to this conclusion that this is canon.

Hm...not sure on that. Flemeth and Morrigan are pretty damn smart themselves and while they will use bloodmagic if it suits them they don't seem to trust demons period. They don't deal with them. (Well Morrigan, Flemeth wouldn't need to deal with a demon and I pity any demon that tries.) 

But I'd rather not end up turning this into a debate on Merrill. I support her in her goal to restore the Eluvian and think she's right and Marethari's wrong.

And a lot of people blame the mages being weak of willpower on the fact that it's Kirkwall.

 

True there's already a Merrill debate thread. 

I feel Kirkwall is kind of like the Vauls from FO. It'sa test to see just how weak/strong willed the average mage is with constant temptation and with increasingly desperate situations. 

Would fit in with how the Divine just let the situation get worse and worse. 

I don't believe demons mind control anyone because if that was the case there would be no need for them to offer deals and try to use temptation. Why bother if you don't need too? Mind control is much more efficent. It may take someone of extraordinary will to resist the temptation (Sten, Morrigan, The Warden, Hawke) but it's always temptation. Merrill just gave in. She wasn't being controlled she just chose to give in. A human reaction but one I still fault her for because she placed more in danger than just herself. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2011 - 11:57 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

The situation in Night Terrors was not normal. Those demons practically mind control all of your companions (except Justice). Even Aveline turns on you for some BS reason over a long dead husband! If that was what mages normally faced, every mage would turn into an abomination.

[TJPags]

Silfren wrote...

TJPags wrote...



Stable =/= good.

...

This argument is a little odd, you know.  Out of those societies that are bandied about as not working like the Chantry-based societies, the one we know the most about - by far - is Tevinter.  Sure, it's stable.  But is it anyplace that anyone would want to live if they were not a powerful mage?  Given all we know about it, I think the honest answer for most people would have to be "no".

No, stable does not equal good.  No argument there. But what's the question?  Whether mages can be allowed to live free lives outside of a Circle tower without raining apocalyptic levels of death and destruction down on everyone because they are under extreme danger of being possessed by demons or turning to blood magic?  Or whether a society of free mages will inevitably lead to a magocracy?

Those are two different questions.  Trying to point out that stable =/= good is a straw man if you are arguing whether or not mages are capable of living freely without endangering the society as far as being able to resist demons and control their abilities.  Whether they would usurp power and enslave everyone around them a la Tevinter is a separate discussion.

Of course they're two separate questions.  It is part of what I'm trying to point out.

To address this issue first:  Mages can absolutely live freely without being a threat to the world.  Not every mage can do so, however.  Just like not every person can do so - we have killers, we have serial killers, we have serial rapists, etc.  The majority of mankind (and I'm talking real world here) is just fine, there are a few bad apples.  The majority of mages in Thedas- with perhaps the exception of those we see in Kirkwall - are probably fine people - and I'll even include those in Tevinter.

Will a free mage society inevitably lead to a magocracy?  Dunno.  It did in Tevinter.  Given the number of times I've read people here justify mages turning into abominations, or turning to blood magic, in response to how they're treated . . .it concerns me that some might.

But let's expand - is a magocracy necessarily a bad thing?  Nope.  Tevinter, I'd argue, is an example of a bad thing.  But in the abstract, no I don't think a magocracy is a bad thing.  I don't think a dictatorship is a bad thing in the abstract, or a monarchy, etc.  I also don't think any particular government is necessarily a good thing, either.  It's all in how it's carried out.

But, going back here, if we accept that some mages are indeed capable of raining apocolyptic death down on everyone around here - and I assume we can agree that mages are capable of that? - what do we do with those mages inclined to do so?  Kill them?  Make them Tranquil?  Lock them up?  And how do we know which mage is which? 

Understand that arguing - as I do - that the RoA was justified in Kirkwall is NOT the same as arguing that mages should be treated as less than other people, or should be subject to abuse.  It's not always a pro-templar or pro-mage argument, you know - just as it's not always a stable society = a good thing (or not) argument.  Sometimes, it's simply a question of whether someone thinks the Kirkwall Circle is a disaster beyond saving or not. 

We don't get an in-game choice to toss Meredith out on her ear, or to change how mages are treated.  We are given an option of Anulling the Circle, or trying to set every mage in Kirkwall free.  We can't move the Circle to someplace other than a hellmouth, we can't change how Circles are run.  We get two options, and two options only.

Although I fought for the mages in the game I completed, I believe - I did then, and do now - that the Kirkwall Circle is lost beyond repair.  Whether that's because it's full of bad mages, or because the Templars abused the hell out of them, or because it's on a hellmouth - I don't know.  Maybe it's all 3.  But given that I feel that this particular Circle is lost, and given I have no option to sort the mages out individually, I believe the thing to do is wipe that Circle out.

To me, that's what the argument is and should be about - whether to wipe out THIS Circle or not.

If, in DA3, we get the option to rework the Circle system, or come up with a new one, I'd be all for that.  In DA2, we are not.

[LobselVith8]

Night Terrors railroads every characters to betray Hawke simply because a demon said a few words, not just Merrill, while Hawke has full immunity because he remembered to wear his I Am Awesome underwear that morning.

[Deztyn]

I'm at work, on break and typing on my phone excuse any crappy formatting, I can only see about half a line as I type.


[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]In places like Denerim or Kirkwall it might be fine. But rural areas with only a few hundred people per town at most? At the very least you're looking at boarding schools. And given the length of time involved, slow communications and dangers of travel it would still invite the "You can't have my children-- oops, she's an abomination kill her please before the whole village goes!" type situation as surely as the Circle system does.[/quote]

True, but technological travel limitations are a given in any system. It's not a failure of the system that some people live in the middle of nowhere.[/quote]

It's a failure if the system is unable to take those limitations into account.

[Quote]
[quote]Ideally no one would be oppressed. Change is needed, but when discussing it I see no point in forgetting what the overall world looks like. It's Thedas, not the modern western world. And I want to start the changes with indoor plumbing.[/quote]

It's not really fair to compare technological innovation with civil rights. I'm sure if there's an advanced alien culture watching over thus, they wonder how we manage to live without some of the things they have. But does that mean some oppressed and abused peoples in a third world nation shouldn't try to fight back against the government abusing them?

I just don't see what taking the rest of Thedas into consideration means. Our own world was not much different at various eras unfortunately. It changed over thousands of years because one by one good men fought back against ignorance and fearmongering tyrants. Why shouldn't the same happen in Thedas? At the risk of breaking out a bad cliche, a long journey is made one step at a time. [/quote]

I didn't literally mean plumbing was a priority, my sense of humor doesn't always translate well to text. >_>

My problem is this, you can't look at the problems of the mages in isolation: Technology, religion, politics, social mores, local laws, economy etc. Etc. All effect how the mages are treated currently and should effect what solutions are viable and what solutions might work in theory but would break the consistency of the world of to a degree that you may as well be rebuilding it entirely. This is an issue with many of the solutions people come up with on the boards here.

Haven's the perfect example, some posters have presented the cringe-worthy idea that it's an example of how abominations aren't the problem the Chantry indicates they are. It isn't. It's an example of how in an isolated town, that zealously adheres to it's religious dogma and has a supernaturally powered army of it's own abominations aren't a big problem. It's not a viable example of an alternative to the Circles, because it would require change at every level of society-- not to mention encouraging another set of abhorrent traditions.

I also distinguish between bad things happening due to a failure of the circle/chanty/templar system and bad things happening because hey, It's a crapsack world.

Getting whipped for stealing is bad. Getting your hand cut off for stealing is worse. Getting executed for stealing is unconscionable. If it's accepted that within the larger society people can be maimed or killed for stealing than a lashing shouldn't be used an example of templar abuse. It's an example of problems within the society as a whole.

What Alrik does is an example of injustices unique to the Circles, more specifically it's evidence that there are things broken in Kirkwall's Circle. Another reminder, Alrik's actions are Illegal. The problem I see isn't that the law allows him to exploit and tranquil mages, the problem is that there aren't stringent enough measures in place to ensure that he's unable to do so and/or properly punished for using his authority as a templar illegally. It shows that reforms were needed to ensure that these things can't happen. I don't see it as a reason to toss out the system entirely.
[quote]
[quote]Meredith has pity for the plight of mages. She seems to recognize they are people. She just sees them as extremely dangerous people who can explode at any time, and who turn her loyal templars against her, just like that darned Champion. She's ruthless, but I see her as more fear aggressive than hateful and sadistic. YMMV on that. It's tough to analyze her character when we don't get to meet her until after she has her Shiny.[/quote]

I would have thought so before seeing her attitude during the Right of Annulment. "This has been a long time coming. I am eager to begin!" Holy crap. That line hit me with as much shock and horror as they wanted Leandra's zombie to. She just admitted herself not an hour ago that many mages are good innocent people and claims it "breaks her heart" to do what she does. Now she's looking at wholesale slaughter and she's as giddy as a virgin on prom night. Seriously, there is no word other than "evil" for that.[/quote]

I'd never argue that Meredith was sane by the end. It is worth noting that in her speech she discusses starting over. It's possible that even loony Merry is just sick of this particular Circle.

[Quote]
[quote]And I'm seriously in love with Old God Andraste.[/quote]

Ditto. That theory is made of win. I've seen a lot of great theories here, but that's the only one I would actually be surprised to find out isn't true.[/quote]

Even if it's not true it's still fun to think about!

[quote]
[quote]Deztyn wrote...

Oh, I'd never try to claim that anyone in DA2 was actually competent. Except maybe Aveline.[/quote]

3 years after finding out a possible serial killer was hiding in a specific building, with a templar hounding her to investigate, her reaction was to whine at Hawke to get the templar to shut up. And the nutjob killer was still hiding in the same damn building. Aveline sucks too. ... At least I hope so, for Donnic's sake. ... I'm sorry, I can't help myself sometimes. [/quote]

Overall crime was down. Injuries were down. The guard was stronger than ever. She was competent. And she didn't ignore Emeric, she raided Gascard's estate found nothing and was forced to apologize. It's after that she got sick of him. But she did get Hawke involved. I ignore the foundry thing. That was classic plot induced stupidity all around. (Maybe it wasn't supposed to be the same exact location?)

[Quote]
[quote]Well, we know she at least tried to be a mediator. So I'm not sure passive and lazy is right. Ineffective and ultimately useless I don't disagree with.[/quote]

"I don't agree with the knight-commander's methods, but I cannot take sides." How much more passive can you get than flatly refusing to take sides even when she thinks her subordinate is going too far?[/quote]

She was in a tough spot. There were legitimate problems with the mages and with the templars. I'm not sure how much she could have done. I suspect she was trying to get both sides to calm down without favoring(and setting off) either. It wasn't a good position to be in and there was no easy answer, you just have to look at this thread to see that.

Edited just to fix broken quotes and add a link

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 mai 2011 - 04:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Understand that arguing - as I do - that the RoA was justified in Kirkwall is NOT the same as arguing that mages should be treated as less than other people, or should be subject to abuse.

Actually, it is. You're just saying that they shouldn't always be so, but you've opened yourself to the possibility now. So really, all you're doing is haggling over price.

Although I fought for the mages in the game I completed, I believe - I did then, and do now - that the Kirkwall Circle is lost beyond repair. Whether that's because it's full of bad mages, or because the Templars abused the hell out of them, or because it's on a hellmouth - I don't know. Maybe it's all 3. But given that I feel that this particular Circle is lost, and given I have no option to sort the mages out individually, I believe the thing to do is wipe that Circle out.

And you are incorrect. Plenty, in fact almost all, of the mages in the mage ending don't use blood magic at all. Your findings are based on faulty evidence. Your Hawke is a fool.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hm...most ikely. 

It would. Plus I liked Angry!Bethany on the Warden path. I wanted to see a bit more of her. 

I like making both Bethany and Carver Wardens. They do more good that way. But I'm doing a FemHawke playthrough now where Bethany is going to go to the Circle, so maybe I'll like that one more.

I will never make Carver a Templar. Imagine having your brother checking up on you and having authority over you, with the ability to send you to the Circle if he wanted to. Not good. Send him far away from Kirkwall.

I think the Divine just wanted an excuse to call a Divine March. She seems a bit of a b****. 
.

She's an old hag. I wonder if she'll be assassinated in DA3....

Yeah a lot more tragic and self -sacrificing. As it is she's just kind of there...

Her eyes look like she's on an eternal high or something.

You mind posting that for me? I'd be interested in reading it. (I'm not as mean as some of my posts suggest really!) 

And yeah that is a good quote. 

I'll have to dig around for it but will do

Like Hawke giving some of the CM tactical advice.  "Guys...let's SPAM the chokepoint with fireballs! That's a good idea! Standing around and waiting for them to cut us down is not a good idea!"

They did have a good tactical position over the Templars, and instead all I saw the mages doing was stomping their feet and making voodoo hands at the Templars.

 

Hm...not sure on that. Flemeth and Morrigan are pretty damn smart themselves and while they will use bloodmagic if it suits them they don't seem to trust demons period. They don't deal with them. (Well Morrigan, Flemeth wouldn't need to deal with a demon and I pity any demon that tries.) 

True, but Blood Magic isn't inherently evil. It's just a tool like anything else and ultimately it's the character of the person that should be judged.

True there's already a Merrill debate thread. 

I feel Kirkwall is kind of like the Vauls from FO. It'sa test to see just how weak/strong willed the average mage is with constant temptation and with increasingly desperate situations. I don't believe demons mind control anyone because if that was the case there would be no need for them to offer deals and try to use temptation. Why bother if you don't need too? Mind control is much more efficent. It may take someone of extraordinary will to resist the temptation (Sten, Morrigan, The Warden, Hawke) but it's always temptation. Merrill just gave in. She wasn't being controlled she just chose to give in. A human reaction but one I still fault her for because she placed more in danger than just herself. 

Would fit in with how the Divine just let the situation get worse and worse. 

It takes place in the Fade though, which operates on a different level than the mortal realm. The Fade is the domain of the subconscious, and while mages are conscious, they are not immune to the dangers. Plus the Chantry forbids magical research, so there may be dangers that people don't know about.

As for Merrill, we'll agree to disagree.

[Xilizhra]

Night Terrors railroads every characters to betray Hawke simply because a demon said a few words, not just Merrill, while Hawke has full immunity because he remembered to wear his I Am Awesome underwear that morning.

The demons want to kill Hawke for screwing with their plan to take Feynriel, so they don't try.

Getting whipped for stealing is bad. Getting your hand cut off for stealing is worse. Getting executed for stealing is unconscionable. If it's accepted that within the larger society people can be maimed or killed for stealing than a lashing shouldn't be used an example of templar abuse. It's an example of problems within the society as a whole.

All of those problems should be fixed. The Circle is an excellent place to start, and start by destroying one of their sources.

[Xilizhra]

It may take someone of extraordinary will to resist the temptation (Sten, Morrigan, The Warden, Hawke) but it's always temptation. Merrill just gave in.

The sloth demon, alone, was trying to control five people (the Warden and companions, plus Niall). The Night Terrors demons can focus all of their power on one. In any case, only the Warden was able to actually break out of the field alone, and the demon focused the least amount of its attention there, given the totally impersonal dream the Warden was trapped in.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

Understand that arguing - as I do - that the RoA was justified in Kirkwall is NOT the same as arguing that mages should be treated as less than other people, or should be subject to abuse.

Actually, it is. You're just saying that they shouldn't always be so, but you've opened yourself to the possibility now. So really, all you're doing is haggling over price.

Haggling over price?  I'm choosing to execute what I see as a bunch of criminals - how is that haggling over price?

Xilizhra wrote...

Although I fought for the mages in the game I completed, I believe - I did then, and do now - that the Kirkwall Circle is lost beyond repair. Whether that's because it's full of bad mages, or because the Templars abused the hell out of them, or because it's on a hellmouth - I don't know. Maybe it's all 3. But given that I feel that this particular Circle is lost, and given I have no option to sort the mages out individually, I believe the thing to do is wipe that Circle out.

And you are incorrect. Plenty, in fact almost all, of the mages in the mage ending don't use blood magic at all. Your findings are based on faulty evidence. Your Hawke is a fool.

Really?  I saw a lot more abominations and evidence of blood magic in the pre-mage ending than I did "innocent" mages.  Who was animating those skeletons I fought?  Where did those abominations filling the courtyard come from?

[Ryzaki]

The sloth demon, alone, was trying to control five people (the Warden and companions, plus Niall). The Night Terrors demons can focus all of their power on one. In any case, only the Warden was able to actually break out of the field alone, and the demon focused the least amount of its attention there, given the totally impersonal dream the Warden was trapped in.

The sloth demon also was feeding off people's lifeforces in the tower for maker only knows how long. Not to mention it had several demon underlings. That thing was no slouch in the least. 

The Night Terror demons could focus their power on one ally which I suppose made the offer more tempting. It wasn't mind control. You can even see them wavering. If it had been mindcontrol there would've been no need for the demon to tempt them with what they wanted most. (As Isabela goes "I'm not getting my ship? Bugger it all!" she was fully aware of what she was doing but her desire to get the ship was paramount.)  Hawke also couldn't leave the dream until they were released from the fade by the Keeper. So they faired worse than the Warden since the Warden let him/herself out. 

As for the impersonal dream that was resource concerns. Making a personal dream that fit every Warden would've been massive. That's why the dream is ridculously impersonal. And even the Warden can't break free of the dream without first running around and destroyingall the demon's underlings and the like. The sloth demon was probably more focused on keeping all the dreams equally tempting. Alas due to resources in the RL the Warden gets a lame dream. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 12:21 .

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

I also distinguish between bad things happening due to a failure of the circle/chanty/templar system and bad things happening because hey, It's a crapsack world.

The circle isn't some random dark alley where it's your fault if you ventured in at 3 am with no protection. 

The mages are held hostage for the express purpose of the greater good.  The Chantry/Templars created the circles and have a responsibility to keep the imprisoned mages safe.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I like making both Bethany and Carver Wardens. They do more good that way. But I'm doing a FemHawke playthrough now where Bethany is going to go to the Circle, so maybe I'll like that one more.

I will never make Carver a Templar. Imagine having your brother checking up on you and having authority over you, with the ability to send you to the Circle if he wanted to. Not good. Send him far away from Kirkwall.

Beth's not so bad at the Circle...though for some reason she as a little b***** towards Hawke my last game. I kind of wondered what I did wrong...maybe I gave her too many rivalry points? I dunno. She was mean. She's normally quite sweet. 

She's an old hag. I wonder if she'll be assassinated in DA3....

Oooh. Maybe that's when we'll see Zevran's cameo again? 

Her eyes look like she's on an eternal high or something. 

I don't understand why she was so...bleh. She was boring really. 

I'll have to dig around for it but will do 

Awesome. 

They did have a good tactical position over the Templars, and instead all I saw the mages doing was stomping their feet and making voodoo hands at the Templars.

Yeah its facepalm worthy. Its even worse when bloody Orsino does the same thing. 

True, but Blood Magic isn't inherently evil. It's just a tool like anything else and ultimately it's the character of the person that should be judged.

Oh I don't see it as evil. Just very dangerous and very open toabuse. I wouldn't trust most people (mage or not) with it. There are those who can control it (heck I even have a bloodmage Hawke myself) but for the most part...no. People are generally dumb and a lot of power + stupidity = BAD. (And yes I include myself with this. Ra only knows the dumb things I'd do with bloodmagic) I'd probably would've had all the templars and mages preforming Thriller in the street to amuse myself. 

It takes place in the Fade though, which operates on a different level than the mortal realm. The Fade is the domain of the subconscious, and while mages are conscious, they are not immune to the dangers. Plus the Chantry forbids magical research, so there may be dangers that people don't know about.

As for Merrill, we'll agree to disagree.

 

i'm guessing since it was Feyrniel's dream maybe the demons there had more power. And really banning magical research is idiocy. I understand banning necromancy and the like (last thing you want is someone bringing back people who should stay dead. But other than that? With severe supervision (and with a mage that's not an idiot) bloodmagic and the like should be researched. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 12:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Haggling over price? I'm choosing to execute what I see as a bunch of criminals - how is that haggling over price?

It is. They don't become criminals until you make their lives illegal.

Really? I saw a lot more abominations and evidence of blood magic in the pre-mage ending than I did "innocent" mages. Who was animating those skeletons I fought? Where did those abominations filling the courtyard come from?

The vast majority of abominations came out of the Fade with no mage help, as they did for the entire rest of the game. There was a grand total of one blood mage on the way to the Gallows, and two more inside that had apparently been enthralled by the desire demon. And demons themselves are quite capable of animating corpses, in addition to demons just coming through the Fade on their own to inabit them.

The sloth demon also was feeding off people's lifeforces in the tower for maker only knows how long. Not to mention it had several demon underlings. That thing was no slouch in the least.

It wasn't. Its resources were still heavily stretched.

You can even see them wavering. If it had been mindcontrol there would've been no need for the demon to tempt them with what they wanted most.

It's how the mind control works. Merrill specifically mentions that she knew she should resist but was literally unable to do so. It's just a means to an end. And Isabela had just woken up after being "killed;" can you blame her for being addled?

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote... It wasn't. Its resources were still heavily stretched.

So you're trying to say if its resources weren't still heavily stretched Morrigan and Sten would've given in?  with 

It's how the mind control works. Merrill specifically mentions that she knew she should resist but was literally unable to do so. It's just a means to an end. And Isabela had just woken up after being "killed;" can you blame her for being addled?

It's a way to duck out of responsibiity for the choice she made. And yes you can be fully aware that you shouldn't do something but do it anyway and you're not being mindcontrolled. That's pretty much what she did. She knew it was wrong...but she did it anway. 

As for being literally unable to do so. I find that a load of crock. If demons were capable of mindcontrolling mages they should all be killed at birth because they're ticking timebombs and it makes no sense to keep them around so one day a demon can mindcontrol them. There's no point to the harrowing because the mages can be mindcontrolled by the demons even if they can resist temptation. 

Frankly put it's not mindcontrol if it was the harrowing would be pointless. 

[Xilizhra]

So you're trying to say if its resources weren't still heavily stretched Morrigan and Sten would've given in?

Sten did give in. He realized the dream was impossible, but still refused to move initially. Morrigan I'm less sure about, but I have a feeling she was in fact trapped; the Flemeth imitation was bad, but having someone who actually cares about her is something that I feel she does want, even though her armor is quite hard to penetrate.

It's a way to duck out of responsibiity for the choice she made. And yes you can be fully aware that you shouldn't do something but do it anyway and you're not being mindcontrolled. That's pretty much what she did. She knew it was wrong...but she did it anway.

So you disrespect Merrill. I can do little about that, I suppose.

As for being literally unable to do so. I find that a load of crock. If demons were capable of mindcontrolling mages they should all be killed at birth because they're ticking timebombs and it makes no sense to keep them around so one day a demon can mindcontrol them.

The nightmare was a demonically crafted Fade realm made from the dreams of a somniarus. The situation wasn't exactly typical; the demons seemed to be far more powerful there.

[TEWR]

@Ryzaki, I found it.

I wrote...

well, to be honest, Orsino said "Quentin's research was too evil. Too dangerous" which refers to a spell Quentin told him to transform into a Harvester. So I guess he thought he would turn into it, be stronger, and not go mindless.

Honestly, the transformation could've been done better. Here's a few ways:

• Account for whether or not the mages live. I'm tired of saving mages only to see them die from sudden heartattacks at the same time caused by a fungal infection of the big toe (end of Broken Circle and Orsino scene)
  
• If all the mages die, Orsino loses it completely (he was still showing some sanity, though what he did was stupid), cuts his wrist, gets possessed by a demon, restrains it long enough to tell Hawke what he just did was foolish but the fear and everything else that's happened was too much to bear and that Hawke needs to slay him, and then he turns into a Harvester. That might've worked better.
  
• If none of the mages die, Orsino doesn't do anything and is optimistic about winning. He then tells Hawke that he'll stay a little longer to fight off Meredith (which wouldn't happen, he'd be dealing with say a few other templars) and escape to warn the other Circles.
  
• Using the above scenario in number 3, the Veil is torn so much that a Pride demon possesses a dead mage and casts a spell that transforms it and all the other corpses into the Harvester, which Orsino would help defeat.

Idk that's just how I think it could've been better. Meredith and the lyrium idol I had no problem with.

Note that I don't see this as amazing, but it would've been better than what we were given. Also, Orsino would live in number 3 to be able to tell the other Circles.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2011 - 12:37 .

[Xilizhra]

Situation 3 always happening seems to be the best option.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Aveline is much stronger willed than your average mage I would say. The desire demon can get her to betray Hawke, someone she would likely give her life for (at least on the friendship path, not exactly sure what the relationship is like as rivals), with the reason being she gets to stay in the fade with a dead Wesley? You really think Aveline would be so stupid as to think that just because the demon took the form of Wesley in his dying moments, that that was really him and she should kill Hawke to stay there with him? Its absurd, there is no way the demons aren't doing a kind of "force persuade" (forgive the kotor reference).