4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...Sten did give in. He realized the dream was impossible, but still refused to move initially. Morrigan I'm less sure about, but I have a feeling she was in fact trapped; the Flemeth imitation was bad, but having someone who actually cares about her is something that I feel she does want, even though her armor is quite hard to penetrate.[/quote]

Sten didn't give in to the demon. He knew the whole time it was complete crockbut he felt at peace there. He wasn't willing to move. That's not the same thing as what Merrill does. Foolishly believing the demon will give her power.  [/quote]
[quote]So you disrespect Merrill. I can do little about that, I suppose.[/quote]

I didn't realize it was disrespectful to call someone out on their decisions. 

[quote]The nightmare was a demonically crafted Fade realm made from the dreams of a somniarus. The situation wasn't exactly typical; the demons seemed to be far more powerful there.[/quote]

And what evidence do you have that the demons became more powerful just for being in that portion of the Fade? Why didn't Torpor share this power boost? Torpor says those two demons were there in the first place and able to compete because of the fact that they were so powerful. They didn't use mindcontrol. They just knew exactly where to hit on the companions (probably read their minds) and what to tempt them with. If it was mindcontrol why can't the pride demon control a desire demon companion? (or vice versa?) 

Because the companions can only be tempted by specific things. Which only certain demons would be acquainted with. (Pride demon wouldn't be too acquainted with a person's desires that weren't related to pride and vice versa for the desire demon).[/quote] 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

[Xilizhra]

I didn't realize it was disrespectful to call someone out on their decisions.

To call them out on being victims of a magical attack. And see Hogarth's post.

And what evidence do you have that the demons became more powerful just for being in that portion of the Fade? Why didn't Torpor share this power boost? Torpor says those two demons were there in the first place and able to compete because of the fact that they were so powerful. They didn't use mindcontrol. They just knew exactly where to hit on the companions (probably read their minds) and what to tempt them with. If it was mindcontrol why can't the pride demon control a desire demon companion? (or vice versa?)

Because demons can't exploit desires that don't exist. But they can make those desires literally irresistible. Plus, the dreams of somniari are stated to be extremely powerful.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Ryzaki, I found it.

I wrote...

well, to be honest, Orsino said "Quentin's research was too evil. Too dangerous" which refers to a spell Quentin told him to transform into a Harvester. So I guess he thought he would turn into it, be stronger, and not go mindless.

Honestly, the transformation could've been done better. Here's a few ways:

• Account for whether or not the mages live. I'm tired of saving mages only to see them die from sudden heartattacks at the same time caused by a fungal infection of the big toe (end of Broken Circle and Orsino scene)
  
• If all the mages die, Orsino loses it completely (he was still showing some sanity, though what he did was stupid), cuts his wrist, gets possessed by a demon, restrains it long enough to tell Hawke what he just did was foolish but the fear and everything else that's happened was too much to bear and that Hawke needs to slay him, and then he turns into a Harvester. That might've worked better.
  
• If none of the mages die, Orsino doesn't do anything and is optimistic about winning. He then tells Hawke that he'll stay a little longer to fight off Meredith (which wouldn't happen, he'd be dealing with say a few other templars) and escape to warn the other Circles.
  
• Using the above scenario in number 3, the Veil is torn so much that a Pride demon possesses a dead mage and casts a spell that transforms it and all the other corpses into the Harvester, which Orsino would help defeat.

Idk that's just how I think it could've been better. Meredith and the lyrium idol I had no problem with.

Note that I don't see this as amazing, but it would've been better than what we were given. Also, Orsino would live in number 3 to be able to tell the other Circles.

  I feel your pain with bullet one.  They all live in my games and then drop dead during the scene. It's ridculous. And yeah...two would've been heartwrenching. All of those ideas are a lot better than what we got though I love 2. I hated the lyrium lightsaber sword personally. It was ridculous. <_< Damn thing even made sounds . 

[TEWR]

Torpor would rather have other people do the work he won't do. He IS a demon of sloth you know. That's why he sent you to kill the demons.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]I didn't realize it was disrespectful to call someone out on their decisions. [/quote]
To call them out on being victims of a magical attack. And see Hogarth's post. [/quote]

She's not a victim though. But we're not gonna agree on this. 

[quote]Because demons can't exploit desires that don't exist. But they can make those desires literally irresistible. Plus, the dreams of somniari are stated to be extremely powerful.[/quote]

Which would mean they're probably not using mindcontrol. If they were they could create desires that don't exist in the persons mind. You don't need to have something someone believes in to mindcontrol them. Not to have them "I wanted to resist...but I couldn't."  Hell you can mindcontrol them into doing things they'd never agree with and they don't understand why they're doing it. They just feel the urge to. The demon could've easily given them desires that were tied into Hawke's death in a fuzzy manner. Yet they don't. Probably because they can't. They can tempt but not control. And they can only tempt within the confined of their nature. 

The dreams being powerful =/= the demons in the dreams becoming more powerful. The former was never in doubt. The second...if you show me something that supports it in game I'd believe you. As it is with Torpor (who granted isn't the most neutral source) that looks to be untrue. THe two demons were powerful *before* they started fighting over Feyrniel. Their power is why they can fight over him in the first place and why Torpor has to rely on Hawke to get anywhere. 
[/quote]

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 12:52 .

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torpor would rather have other people do the work he won't do. He IS a demon of sloth you know. That's why he sent you to kill the demons.

It is but he himself says he's to weak to fight them. (Which I'm pretty sure is true). Even being a demon of sloth he had no way of knowing if someone was going to help him. So he would've made a move by then if he thought he had a chance (one would guess at least). 

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Ryzaki, I found it.

I wrote...

well, to be honest, Orsino said "Quentin's research was too evil. Too dangerous" which refers to a spell Quentin told him to transform into a Harvester. So I guess he thought he would turn into it, be stronger, and not go mindless.

Honestly, the transformation could've been done better. Here's a few ways:

• Account for whether or not the mages live. I'm tired of saving mages only to see them die from sudden heartattacks at the same time caused by a fungal infection of the big toe (end of Broken Circle and Orsino scene)
  
  
• If all the mages die, Orsino loses it completely (he was still showing some sanity, though what he did was stupid), cuts his wrist, gets possessed by a demon, restrains it long enough to tell Hawke what he just did was foolish but the fear and everything else that's happened was too much to bear and that Hawke needs to slay him, and then he turns into a Harvester. That might've worked better.
  
  
• If none of the mages die, Orsino doesn't do anything and is optimistic about winning. He then tells Hawke that he'll stay a little longer to fight off Meredith (which wouldn't happen, he'd be dealing with say a few other templars) and escape to warn the other Circles.
  
  
• Using the above scenario in number 3, the Veil is torn so much that a Pride demon possesses a dead mage and casts a spell that transforms it and all the other corpses into the Harvester, which Orsino would help defeat.

Idk that's just how I think it could've been better. Meredith and the lyrium idol I had no problem with.

Note that I don't see this as amazing, but it would've been better than what we were given. Also, Orsino would live in number 3 to be able to tell the other Circles.

  I feel your pain with bullet one.  They all live in my games and then drop dead during the scene. It's ridculous. And yeah...two would've been heartwrenching. All of those ideas are a lot better than what we got though I love 2. I hated the lyrium lightsaber sword personally. It was ridculous. <_< Damn thing even made sounds . 

 
I agree, the sounds were not needed. But her taking the lyrium idol itself I had no problem with. I knew right from the moment I saw it that that thing was evil, and when Bartrand took it I knew bad **** was going to happen. Considering Templars use lyrium, I had no problem when I found out she was the one who bought it.

Other than the sounds, I had no problem with it. A lot of people didn't like the statues being brought to life, but what she did was just make a makeshift golem, minus the soul. A golem is basically a statue and lyrium, and in Orzammar's case a soul added in.

[Xilizhra]

She's not a victim though. But we're not gonna agree on this.

No.

Which would mean they're probably not using mindcontrol. If they were they could create desires that don't exist in the persons mind. You don't need to have something someone believes in to mindcontrol them. Not to have them "I wanted to resist...but I couldn't." Hell you can mindcontrol them into doing things they'd never agree with and they don't understand why they're doing it. They just feel the urge to. The demon could've easily given them desires that were tied into Hawke's death in a fuzzy manner. Yet they don't. Probably because they can't. They can tempt but not control.

No True Scotsman. Just because a form of mind control has prerequisites doesn't make it not control.

The dreams being powerful =/= the demons in the dreams becoming more powerful. The former was never in doubt. The second...if you show me something that supports it in game I'd believe you. As it is with Torpor (who granted isn't the most neutral source) that looks to be untrue. THe two demons were powerful *before* they started fighting over Feyrniel. Their power is why they can fight over him in the first place and why Torpor has to rely on Hawke to get anywhere.

The fact that all of your companions taking two seconds to decide to betray Hawke based on extremely fuzzy and unattainable things isn't enough for you?

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...   
I agree, the sounds were not needed. But her taking the lyrium idol itself I had no problem with. I knew right from the moment I saw it that that thing was evil, and when Bartrand took it I knew bad **** was going to happen. Considering Templars use lyrium, I had no problem when I found out she was the one who bought it.

Other than the sounds, I had no problem with it. A lot of people didn't like the statues being brought to life, but what she did was just make a makeshift golem, minus the soul. A golem is basically a statue and lyrium, and in Orzammar's case a soul added in.

I guess it was supposed to be some homage to KOTOR. Except...Malak was more awesome than Meredith. And that's a damn shame.  

I knew it was evil too. I just didn't expect it to be made into a sword...

I just hate the fact that it takes alot of responsibility away from Meredith. "Why does she annull the circle?" "She's crazy because of the idol!" "Why does she think bloodmages are in the circle?" "Because the idol makes her paranoid/crazy!" it just gets bleh. 

I didn't mind the statues (though killing them did get a little tedious) my main issue as that stupid attack that took all my mana. Stupid...cheap ability! 

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

No True Scotsman. Just because a form of mind control has prerequisites doesn't make it not control.

Except it's not mindcontrol. If it was what's the point of the harrowing? Why would a demon be placed in a mage to see if they could "resist" if there wasn't a chance to resist? 

And again why do these prerequiests exist? Why must a pride demon mind control using only pride? Why can't they make up something related to pride? 

The fact that all of your companions taking two seconds to decide to betray Hawke based on extremely fuzzy and unattainable things isn't enough for you?

No actually it's not. People will backstab/betray their lovers if they think it'll get them ahead. No matter how stupid it looks like in hindsight.  

Trying to pin it on mindcontrol is taking all personal responsibility for your companions betrayals in the fade away from them. People betray people...it happens. It doesn't mean someone's being mindcontrolled. 

Edit: not to mention the demon has to mindcontroll the companion and fight Hawke. That would take quite a bit of concentration especially considering you can kill the demon first and your companion will keep attacking you. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 01:02 .

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...   
I agree, the sounds were not needed. But her taking the lyrium idol itself I had no problem with. I knew right from the moment I saw it that that thing was evil, and when Bartrand took it I knew bad **** was going to happen. Considering Templars use lyrium, I had no problem when I found out she was the one who bought it.

Other than the sounds, I had no problem with it. A lot of people didn't like the statues being brought to life, but what she did was just make a makeshift golem, minus the soul. A golem is basically a statue and lyrium, and in Orzammar's case a soul added in.

I guess it was supposed to be some homage to KOTOR. Except...Malak was more awesome than Meredith. And that's a damn shame.  

I knew it was evil too. I just didn't expect it to be made into a sword...

I just hate the fact that it takes alot of responsibility away from Meredith. "Why does she annull the circle?" "She's crazy because of the idol!" "Why does she think bloodmages are in the circle?" "Because the idol makes her paranoid/crazy!" it just gets bleh. 

I didn't mind the statues (though killing them did get a little tedious) my main issue as that stupid attack that took all my mana. Stupid...cheap ability! 

the main theory about the idol itself is that it doesn't create anything, but merely exacerbates any existing traits. Meredith already had a deepseated fear and paranoia against the mages, which Orsino seems to indicate in the climax of Act 2 (and Meredith didn't have the lyriumsaber at that point.). Also, Varric said that after Hawke's first year in Kirkwall the trouble with the mages started to begin because the Templars grew more powerful under Meredith.

As for Bartrand, I'm not really sure what it may have amplified.

[HogarthHughes 3]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Aveline is much stronger willed than your average mage I would say. The desire demon can get her to betray Hawke, someone she would likely give her life for (at least on the friendship path, not exactly sure what the relationship is like as rivals), with the reason being she gets to stay in the fade with a dead Wesley? You really think Aveline would be so stupid as to think that just because the demon took the form of Wesley in his dying moments, that that was really him and she should kill Hawke to stay there with him? Its absurd, there is no way the demons aren't doing a kind of "force persuade" (forgive the kotor reference).

There isn't a chance to resist the demons in Night Terrors though.  Do you really think Fenris would normally stab Hawke in the back to side with a demon, just because it promised him power? The demons cloud Hawkes companions judgement.  They get them to focus on nothing but what they're being promised.  Don't just look at the fact that they betray Hawke, look at why they're betraying him/her, and for whom.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 12 mai 2011 - 01:05 .

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
the main theory about the idol itself is that it doesn't create anything, but merely exacerbates any existing traits. Meredith already had a deepseated fear and paranoia against the mages, which Orsino seems to indicate in the climax of Act 2 (and Meredith didn't have the lyriumsaber at that point.). Also, Varric said that after Hawke's first year in Kirkwall the trouble with the mages started to begin because the Templars grew more powerful under Meredith.

As for Bartrand, I'm not really sure what it may have amplified.

True. Lyriumsaber  Though when did Meredith have the idol turned into a sword? During the timeskip? 

And really...you'd think someone who was paranoid would be a bit more wary of lyrium that sings to them. 

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
the main theory about the idol itself is that it doesn't create anything, but merely exacerbates any existing traits. Meredith already had a deepseated fear and paranoia against the mages, which Orsino seems to indicate in the climax of Act 2 (and Meredith didn't have the lyriumsaber at that point.). Also, Varric said that after Hawke's first year in Kirkwall the trouble with the mages started to begin because the Templars grew more powerful under Meredith.

As for Bartrand, I'm not really sure what it may have amplified.

True. Lyriumsaber  Though when did Meredith have the idol turned into a sword? During the timeskip? 

And really...you'd think someone who was paranoid would be a bit more wary of lyrium that sings to them. 

most likely yes during the timeskip. In the opening scene of Act 3 you see the lyriumsaber on her back.

As for her being wary, I doubt she knew. or if she did, thought she could handle it because she's a Templar and she's one arrogant and cocky b****. Corff the Bartender does tell you though that some Templars have heard her conversing with someone in her office, even though she's alone.

And now I'm imagining this turning into FFXII where Dr. Cid was conversing with Venat, and no one else could see it .

[Xilizhra]

Except it's not mindcontrol. If it was what's the point of the harrowing? Why would a demon be placed in a mage to see if they could "resist" if there wasn't a chance to resist?

Because it's not a demon-made realm.

And again why do these prerequiests exist? Why must a pride demon mind control using only pride? Why can't they make up something related to pride?

Pride is the only door they know.

No actually it's not. People will backstab/betray their lovers if they think it'll get them ahead. No matter how stupid it looks like in hindsight.

Trying to pin it on mindcontrol is taking all personal responsibility for your companions betrayals in the fade away from them. People betray people...it happens. It doesn't mean someone's being mindcontrolled.

They possess no personal responsibility to be taken away. It's a form of mind control.

[IanPolaris]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Aveline is much stronger willed than your average mage I would say. The desire demon can get her to betray Hawke, someone she would likely give her life for (at least on the friendship path, not exactly sure what the relationship is like as rivals), with the reason being she gets to stay in the fade with a dead Wesley? You really think Aveline would be so stupid as to think that just because the demon took the form of Wesley in his dying moments, that that was really him and she should kill Hawke to stay there with him? Its absurd, there is no way the demons aren't doing a kind of "force persuade" (forgive the kotor reference).

There isn't a chance to resist the demons in Night Terrors though.  Do you really think Fenris would normally stab Hawke in the back to side with a demon, just because it promised him power? The demons cloud Hawkes companions judgement.  They get them to focus on nothing but what they're being promised.  Don't just look at the fact that they betray Hawke, look at why they're betraying him/her, and for whom.

Honestly I find Night Terrors to be one of the worst written, and dishnest quests in DA2 (and that's saying a lot).  The quest is supposed to "educate us" as to what mages face everyday in their dreams (as Fenris outright states) with the implication that there is no way a mage.....any mage...can be trusted to resist for any length of time.

The problem is if that were true.  If mages really did have it that bad (as in Night Terrors), then you'd expect virtually EVERY mage to become an abomination in short order and that simply does not happen...not even in Kirkwall.

Bad bioware. Bad.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

I don't believe most people think that most mages have two demon lords creating elaborate scenarios to ensnare them each night... the part about Feynriel being a somniarus was quite well put into play.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because it's not a demon-made realm.

And I still have yet to see why this makes them capable of mind control. 

Pride is the only door they know. 

Which makes even less sense. There's plenty of things that can be related to pride that the PD could've exploited with Aveline/Isabela. Aveline's pride as a guard captain, Isabela's pride for...something (I don't know Izzy too well I admit) but everyone has pride in them. That could've been exploited. 

They possess no personal responsibility to be taken away. It's a form of mind control.

and no it's not. The only evidence you've given me of that being mind control is the fact that they betray you. Which isn't conclusive either way. Regardless this is getting into "is not!" "Is too!" terrority so I'll end it with agreeing to disagree. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[Xilizhra]

And I still have yet to see why this makes them capable of mind control.

Then it seems unlikely you ever will, at this point.

Which makes even less sense. There's plenty of things that can be related to pride that the PD could've exploited with Aveline/Isabela. Aveline's pride as a guard captain, Isabela's pride for...something (I don't know Izzy too well I admit) but everyone has pride in them. That could've been exploited.

And at this point, we seem to be getting into the realm of "**** the writers didn't have time to put in." They just went with the most evocative temptations for everyone.

and no it's not. The only evidence you've given me of that being mind control is the fact that they betray you. Which isn't conclusive either way. Regardless this is getting into "is not!" "Is too!" terrority so I'll end it with agreeing to disagree.

As you wish.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
most likely yes during the timeskip. In the opening scene of Act 3 you see the lyriumsaber on her back.

As for her being wary, I doubt she knew. or if she did, thought she could handle it because she's a Templar and she's one arrogant and cocky b****. Corff the Bartender does tell you though that some Templars have heard her conversing with someone in her office, even though she's alone.

And now I'm imagining this turning into FFXII where Dr. Cid was conversing with Venat, and no one else could see it .

 

Yeah...Pride seems to be the downfall of most people in DA2. You'd think ther were pride demons have parties all over the place. I didn't hear that...wow. She really was just like Betrand. 

 I loved Cid. Though...could Balthier and them see Venat? I can't remember. 

I loved FF12. There was very few "just bad." characters in that game. Refreshing for a FF title.

[Xilizhra]

CaptainIsabela wrote...

*Ahem* Can I just interupt this thread with an important announcement - I love Knight Commander Meredith! (And if she was 20 years younger - definitely!)

I never knew you had the desire to be penetrated by anything, much less ginormous swords when your paramour has a paranoia attack.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
most likely yes during the timeskip. In the opening scene of Act 3 you see the lyriumsaber on her back.

As for her being wary, I doubt she knew. or if she did, thought she could handle it because she's a Templar and she's one arrogant and cocky b****. Corff the Bartender does tell you though that some Templars have heard her conversing with someone in her office, even though she's alone.

And now I'm imagining this turning into FFXII where Dr. Cid was conversing with Venat, and no one else could see it .

 

Yeah...Pride seems to be the downfall of most people in DA2. You'd think ther were pride demons have parties all over the place. I didn't hear that...wow. She really was just like Betrand. 

 I loved Cid. Though...could Balthier and them see Venat? I can't remember. 

I loved FF12. There was very few "just bad." characters in that game. Refreshing for a FF title.

It's funny, we fought a good amount of pride demons in Kirkwall. You know what angered me though? The fight in the docks during The Last Straw that consisted of a Pride Demon, a Blood Mage, and 600 shades. That had to be the hardest fight in the game. Which made me even angrier considering when you fight with the mages the Templars were a walk in the park.

As for FFXII, I loved it too. It was more of a political Final Fantasy. There were barely any "bad" characters as you said, and each were enjoyable on their own merits (fun fact: Loghain's VA did a voice of one of the Senators of Archadia).

Anyway, as I said it was more politically centered, and then started to turn into a grander scheme of things whilst still remaining political. If that makes any sense.

FFXIII though was horrendous. It had a great story, but the lack of sidequests and exploration until the game is almost over with really killed it for me. It seemed like they were more of an afterthought then anything else (although, I did like the two girls' home village's music theme. That brought me to tears).

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...


Honestly I find Night Terrors to be one of the worst written, and dishnest quests in DA2 (and that's saying a lot).  The quest is supposed to "educate us" as to what mages face everyday in their dreams (as Fenris outright states) with the implication that there is no way a mage.....any mage...can be trusted to resist for any length of time.

The problem is if that were true.  If mages really did have it that bad (as in Night Terrors), then you'd expect virtually EVERY mage to become an abomination in short order and that simply does not happen...not even in Kirkwall.

Bad bioware. Bad.

-Polaris

Who says it is meant to educate us about what mages ace?  Guestimation on your part perhaps or is there a quote anywhere that is the reason.  We know by now, even with the direct words of Dave Gaider on a few issues that anything anti mage is "Bad bioWare bad."