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[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

And if you are mage, supporting the mages means turning against your brother and killing the people that he's lived and trained with for years. That argument works both ways.

No it really doesn't.  Templars CHOOSE to take holy vows and become templars, and you can choose to walk away from the Order.  Mages can't choose not to be mages.  Thus when you choose to side with the mages, you are choosing to side with a group that has been unjustly marked for genocide based on an act they didn't even do.  The only Templars you kill are the Templars that CHOOSE to go through with this.  Your brother can choose too.

Not the same thing at all.

-Polaris

So what part of that means you are not turning against your brother and killing the people he has lived with and trained with for years?

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 mai 2011 - 05:24 .

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...


Oh I don't see it as evil. Just very dangerous and very open toabuse. I wouldn't trust most people (mage or not) with it. There are those who can control it (heck I even have a bloodmage Hawke myself) but for the most part...no. People are generally dumb and a lot of power + stupidity = BAD. (And yes I include myself with this. Ra only knows the dumb things I'd do with bloodmagic) I'd probably would've had all the templars and mages preforming Thriller in the street to amuse myself. 

Snorting scotch up your nose is distinctly unpleasant, just so you know.  Thanks for that image.  Really.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 mai 2011 - 05:59 .

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

And if you are mage, supporting the mages means turning against your brother and killing the people that he's lived and trained with for years. That argument works both ways.

No it really doesn't.  Templars CHOOSE to take holy vows and become templars, and you can choose to walk away from the Order.  Mages can't choose not to be mages.  Thus when you choose to side with the mages, you are choosing to side with a group that has been unjustly marked for genocide based on an act they didn't even do.  The only Templars you kill are the Templars that CHOOSE to go through with this.  Your brother can choose too.

Not the same thing at all.

-Polaris

So what part of that means you are not turning against your brother and killing the people he has lived with and trained with for years?

I'll tell you what.  You are NOT responsible for the CHOICES of others.  Your brother can CHOOSE to act against you if you back the mages, but that is his choice and not yours.  Choosing to side against the Templars does NOT ipso-facto mean you must side against your brother.  Your brother has to choose whether he will side against you.

I deny negative responsibility.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

I have to wonder what Hawke is going to do once the dust settles. Side against Meredith to protect the mages, where they spread word of what happened at Kirkwall, and then the Circles break free. As a hero of the Magi (and a possible mage), would Hake spent the next three years formulating a resistance movement, would he have a chance to take the reigns of the Resolutionists and determine the course of action they'll take now that the Circles are free and possibly change the way the group acts, or is it going to be running for three years (or sailing, if Hawke takes up Isabela on the offer to join her crew on her new ship) because there are templars hunting him down because he didn't side with Meredith?

[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

And if you are mage, supporting the mages means turning against your brother and killing the people that he's lived and trained with for years. That argument works both ways.

No it really doesn't.  Templars CHOOSE to take holy vows and become templars, and you can choose to walk away from the Order.  Mages can't choose not to be mages.  Thus when you choose to side with the mages, you are choosing to side with a group that has been unjustly marked for genocide based on an act they didn't even do.  The only Templars you kill are the Templars that CHOOSE to go through with this.  Your brother can choose too.

Not the same thing at all.

-Polaris

So what part of that means you are not turning against your brother and killing the people he has lived with and trained with for years?

I'll tell you what.  You are NOT responsible for the CHOICES of others.  Your brother can CHOOSE to act against you if you back the mages, but that is his choice and not yours.  Choosing to side against the Templars does NOT ipso-facto mean you must side against your brother.  Your brother has to choose whether he will side against you.

I deny negative responsibility.

-Polaris

And when Mage Hawke chooses to side with the mages she is choosing to kill the people that he has lived with and trained with for years. That doesn't change because the Templars choose to follow their orders.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 mai 2011 - 05:35 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I have to wonder what Hawke is going to do once the dust settles. Side against Meredith to protect the mages, where they spread word of what happened at Kirkwall, and then the Circles break free. As a hero of the Magi (and a possible mage), would Hake spent the next three years formulating a resistance movement, would he have a chance to take the reigns of the Resolutionists and determine the course of action they'll take now that the Circles are free and possibly change the way the group acts, or is it going to be running for three years (or sailing, if Hawke takes up Isabela on the offer to join her crew on her new ship) because there are templars hunting him down because he didn't side with Meredith?

considering how Hawke couldn't even give a few strategic tips to a few mages, I don't know if putting him in charge of an entire army is a sound idea.


In all seriousness, I can see him being a part of this war if he hasn't vanished off the face of Thedas like the Warden did.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

We've spent 80 pages debating the evils of a virtual world, and then I go back to the real world and read this:

http://www.cnn.com/2...dex.html?hpt=C2

Blech.

....*gapes*

Horrified...but given some of the other things I've seen, I can't really claim to be surprised.  I'm gonna go find something to kick for a while.

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

And when Mage Hawke chooses to side with the mages she is choosing to kill the people that he has lived with and trained with for years. That doesn't change because the Templars choose to follow their orders.

Huh?  That's a complete non-sequitor.  Hawke isn't choosing to kill anyone.  He (or she) is choosing to DEFEND a group of people against injustice.  If no one chooses to attack then no lives need be lost.

Sorry, but the choice is actually not ambiguous at all.  Choosing the mage side is the "good" or "paragon" side and chosing the Templars is not.

The point remains, the Templars can CHOOSE not to follow orders.  Mages can't decide to stop being mages.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

considering how Hawke couldn't even give a few strategic tips to a few mages, I don't know if putting him in charge of an entire army is a sound idea.


In all seriousness, I can see him being a part of this war if he hasn't vanished off the face of Thedas like the Warden did.

really it's not a sound idea. Hawke couldn't even bother getting off his/her ass and exposing the templar abuses. I wouldn't trust them with a kid let alone an army. 

s/he's part of a new breeding program. They need the Warden for the brains and Hawke for the brawn. 

[IanPolaris]

Ultimately Hawke is just a useless nobleman (or noblewoman) who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Otherwise Hawke is almost completely irrelevant.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

We've spent 80 pages debating the evils of a virtual world, and then I go back to the real world and read this:

http://www.cnn.com/2...dex.html?hpt=C2

Blech.

....*gapes*

Horrified...but given some of the other things I've seen, I can't really claim to be surprised.  I'm gonna go find something to kick for a while.

I read the last sentence as "I'm gonna go find something to lick for a while."

[LobselVith8]

Brawn? You don't need brawn with The Warden. You had criminals jumping off a cliff just to avoid fighting The Hero of Ferelden. I'd assume he's currently occupied ruling the arling of Amaranthine, though. It's like the story of Loghain, getting a title and an army when the Warden became a high noble the moment he took the reigns of Amaranthine and had lesser nobles pledging their fealty to him. I'm sure the Chantry loved hearing about an elven mage ruling over an entire arling and winning over the people as their newl Arl.

As for Hawke, I hold out some small hope that he will be proactive once he's free from the Hellmouth... it made people lazy. Just look at Cullen when Hawke tells him what Anders did...

[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

And when Mage Hawke chooses to side with the mages she is choosing to kill the people that he has lived with and trained with for years. That doesn't change because the Templars choose to follow their orders.

Huh?  That's a complete non-sequitor.  Hawke isn't choosing to kill anyone.  He (or she) is choosing to DEFEND a group of people against injustice.  If no one chooses to attack then no lives need be lost.

She is defending the mages by killing the templars her brother has lived with and trained with for years.

Sorry, but the choice is actually not ambiguous at all.  Choosing the mage side is the "good" or "paragon" side and chosing the Templars is not.

The point remains, the Templars can CHOOSE not to follow orders.  Mages can't decide to stop being mages.

-Polaris

And the fact that they have chosen to follow their orders still does not change the fact that they are the people your dear little brother has lived with and trained with for years. You would have to be a terrible sister to inflict such emotional pain and suffering on your baby brother.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Brawn? You don't need brawn with The Warden. You had criminals jumping off a cliff just to avoid fighting The Hero of Ferelden. I'd assume he's currently occupied ruling the arling of Amaranthine, though. It's like the story of Loghain, getting a title and an army when the Warden became a high noble the moment he took the reigns of Amaranthine and had lesser nobles pledging their fealty to him. I'm sure the Chantry loved hearing about an elven mage ruling over an entire arling and winning over the people as their newl Arl.

As for Hawke, I hold out some small hope that he will be proactive once he's free from the Hellmouth... it made people lazy. Just look at Cullen when Hawke tells him what Anders did...

Hey now. You can always use more Brawn. 

Though...yeah the Warden does have Brawn covered. Maybe the Warden was getting fat. 

I have hopes Hawke'll do something as well. I really hope that happens. Hawke's just too lazy now. 

And yes Cullen. My Hawke was all ":mellow:" Seriously? There has to be something in the water. 

Edit: on a totally unrelated note...why are Beth and Carv still single after six years in Kirkwall? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 06:09 .

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

And when Mage Hawke chooses to side with the mages she is choosing to kill the people that he has lived with and trained with for years. That doesn't change because the Templars choose to follow their orders.

Huh?  That's a complete non-sequitor.  Hawke isn't choosing to kill anyone.  He (or she) is choosing to DEFEND a group of people against injustice.  If no one chooses to attack then no lives need be lost.

She is defending the mages by killing the templars her brother has lived with and trained with for years.

\\

She is defending mages against ENEMY SOLDIERS that would commit genocide against each and every one.  The Mages are clearly wearing the moral white hats here on this whateverf Bioware wants to tell you.  The Templars including your brother are not forced to follow orders and attack and you are NOT responsible for them if they do.  That includes your brother.  In fact you plead with your brother to join you and he almost does.  HIS Choice and thus HIS consequence not yours.

Sorry, but the choice is actually not ambiguous at all.  Choosing the mage side is the "good" or "paragon" side and chosing the Templars is not.

The point remains, the Templars can CHOOSE not to follow orders.  Mages can't decide to stop being mages.

-Polaris

And the fact that they have chosen to follow their orders still does not change the fact that they are the people your dear little brother has lived with and trained with for years. You would have to be a terrible sister to inflict such emotional pain and suffering on your baby brother.

Nope.  Little brother can chose to side with me or sit this one out.  Choosing to attack me anyway and willingly follow a madwoman is his responsibility.  I might feel bad about what happened to him, but it's NOT my fault in any reasonable moral sense.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 mai 2011 - 06:26 .

[LobselVith8]

Protecting men, women, and children from Meredith's madness v. Carver feeling bad.

I have to say I'd choose the mages' lives over Carver's feelings, Deztyn.

[TEWR]

lyrium

Edit: on a totally unrelated note...why are Beth and Carv still single after six years in Kirkwall? 

well Carver's overcompensating for something with that big sword and men are scared of Bethany. Shame too, Bethany's awesome.

Carver's got some good qualities I guess, like.... like..... ummm.............................................


so how about them mages?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2011 - 06:14 .

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

lyrium

Yeah Carver's screwed in the long run if he doesn't help the templars. He's gonna end up like Samson. Begging on the streets for some dwarf dust.  And Hawke's back to being broke (because Hawke ran away and left all his wealth behind and is too much of a moron to have business in other lands) so he can't buy his little bro any lyrium. 

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...
Edit: on a totally unrelated note...why are Beth and Carv still single after six years in Kirkwall? 

If they are Grey Wardens, then Grey Wardens tend not to be the marrying type (unless they already are when they join) for what should be obvious reasons.

If not, then Beth is a circle mage and the Kirkwall circle is like a nunnery with all the good parts stripped out.  I don't think in Kirkwall mages are allowed to marry or have relationships (even to the point of cutting off mages from their spouses forever....see Huon).

As for Carver, I got the distinct impression from the chatter from Isabella and Avaline that Carver was a bit of a Tom-cat, and once Carver joins the Templar, he has to abdicate all rights to the Amell name, rights, and lands in favor of his sister/brother.....and thus there probably isn't any incentive for him to marry....and I was also under the impression that marriage either wasn't allowed  or strongly discouraged for Templars too (i.e. if you were married before you could stay married but otherwise no).

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
well Carver's overcompensating for something with that big sword and men are scared of Bethany. Shame too, Bethany's awesome.

Carver's got some good qualities I guess, like.... like..... ummm.............................................


so how about them mages?

 Poor Carvery. But surely mage men wouldn't be scared of Bethany...I mean mages did have relationships (in secret if nothing else). 

Hey Carver has plenty of good qualities...as a Warden.  

They be casting spells and blowing up your house. 

Edit: At Ian: Makes sense. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 06:34 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki, we know Alistair is the one who seemed to put on a few pounds. There's no way the Hero of Ferelden got fat. He's arm wresting dragons, killing darkspawn, and drinking ale out of the Architect's skull.

Bethany is single because Hawke beats the crap out of her potential suitors while giving his best Tony Montana impression, and Carver goes to the "gentlemen's club," as Isabela pointed out.

[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

And when Mage Hawke chooses to side with the mages she is choosing to kill the people that he has lived with and trained with for years. That doesn't change because the Templars choose to follow their orders.

Huh?  That's a complete non-sequitor.  Hawke isn't choosing to kill anyone.  He (or she) is choosing to DEFEND a group of people against injustice.  If no one chooses to attack then no lives need be lost.

She is defending the mages by killing the templars her brother has lived with and trained with for years.

She is defending mages against ENEMY SOLDIERS that would commit genocide against each and every one.  The Mages are clearly wearing the moral white hats here on this whateverf Bioware wants to tell you.  The Templars including your brother are not forced to follow orders and attack and you are NOT responsible for them if they do.  That includes your brother.  In fact you plead with your brother to join you and he almost does.  HIS Choice and thus HIS consequence not yours.

Enemies to the mages, not enemies to Carver. He has lived with and trained with these people for years.

Sorry, but the choice is actually not ambiguous at all.  Choosing the mage side is the "good" or "paragon" side and chosing the Templars is not.

The point remains, the Templars can CHOOSE not to follow orders.  Mages can't decide to stop being mages.

-Polaris

And the fact that they have chosen to follow their orders still does not change the fact that they are the people your dear little brother has lived with and trained with for years. You would have to be a terrible sister to inflict such emotional pain and suffering on your baby brother.

Nope.  Little brother can chose to side with me or sit this one out.  Choosing to attack me anyway and willingly follow a madwoman is his responsibility.  I might feel bad about what happened to him, but it's NOT my fault in any reasonable moral sense.

-Polaris

It's your fault for siding with the mages and choosing to fight against Carver and the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki, we know Alistair is the one who seemed to put on a few pounds. There's no way the Hero of Ferelden got fat. He's arm wresting dragons, killing darkspawn, and drinking ale out of the Architect's skull.

Bethany is single because Hawke beats the crap out of her potential suitors while giving his best Tony Montana impression, and Carver goes to the "gentlemen's club," as Isabela pointed out.

 But mine was councilor! He'd get fat too! 

Poor Bethany. Shall forever remain a virgin because no one will measure up to Hawke's ridculous standards.  

And yeah I want him to have a relationship. Not some random sex. I want a woman I can needle about Carver's naked running around baby stories. 

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

It's your fault for siding with the mages and choosing to fight against Carver and the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

Wrong.  Mages don't have a choice to be mages.  You are defending the innocent against unjust slaughter.  Templars DO have a choice to be templars or even to follow orders.

You are not choosing to fight against anyone.  You are choosing to defend the innocent.  If Carver chooses otherwise, that's all on him.

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah Carver's screwed in the long run if he doesn't help the templars. He's gonna end up like Samson. Begging on the streets for some dwarf dust.  And Hawke's back to being broke (because Hawke ran away and left all his wealth behind and is too much of a moron to have business in other lands) so he can't buy his little bro any lyrium. 

Who's to say what Hawke has been up to in the random 3 year breaks.  I like to picture Hawke buying a lovely tropical island with no crazy mages or oppressive Templars in sight.  She's planning for her retirement, my Hawke is.  All this mage war hubub is messing with her tan lines.  invest in real estate as far away from Kirkwall as possible friends.  Fenris doesn't like to move in, so he's got the bungalow down the shore.

There's just too much unaccounted for time in the game.  It's hard for me to role play a Hawke who's all caught up in mage freedom, but does nothing for years at a time.  There's no reason why Hawke wouldn't have been working on something during those years if s/he's any kind of upstanding citizen.  Whether you think the mages are right, the Templars or Elthina and her wistful dreams of compromise it's hard to imagine watching your adopted city get swallowed up in this chaos and well, what?  You're too busy telling Varric your story for his biography?