4350 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Deztyn wrote...

It's your fault for siding with the mages and choosing to fight against Carver and the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

In my case, Hawke already didn't care what Carver thought.  He became a Templar despite me being a mage and having deep mistrust and almost hatred of them.  If he's a big boy enough to do that, he's big enough to live with the consequences.

[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

It's your fault for siding with the mages and choosing to fight against Carver and the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

Wrong.  Mages don't have a choice to be mages.  You are defending the innocent against unjust slaughter.  Templars DO have a choice to be templars or even to follow orders.

You are not choosing to fight against anyone.  You are choosing to defend the innocent.  If Carver chooses otherwise, that's all on him.

-Polaris

You are defending the innocent mages...

...by killing the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki, we know Alistair is the one who seemed to put on a few pounds. There's no way the Hero of Ferelden got fat. He's arm wresting dragons, killing darkspawn, and drinking ale out of the Architect's skull.

Bethany is single because Hawke beats the crap out of her potential suitors while giving his best Tony Montana impression, and Carver goes to the "gentlemen's club," as Isabela pointed out.

 But mine was councilor! He'd get fat too! 

Poor Bethany. Shall forever remain a virgin because no one will measure up to Hawke's ridculous standards.  

And yeah I want him to have a relationship. Not some random sex. I want a woman I can needle about Carver's naked running around baby stories. 

Part of that is Bethany's own fault.  After all she kept turning down Isabella's very geneous offer of a night at the Rose on her. 

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

You are defending the innocent mages...

...by killing the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

No.  I am defending innocent mages.  Period.  End of discussion.

It's up to Carver whether or not he wants to side with a madwoman and attack the innocent.  That is NOT my decision and I am not morally responsible for it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

GavrielKay wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

It's your fault for siding with the mages and choosing to fight against Carver and the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

In my case, Hawke already didn't care what Carver thought.  He became a Templar despite me being a mage and having deep mistrust and almost hatred of them.  If he's a big boy enough to do that, he's big enough to live with the consequences.

Indeed.  He still to the very end (Carver) has the choice to walk away.   Keenan makes that choice if a templar in Act III.  Since Carver has a choice, you are NOT responsible for what happens to him if he chooses badly.  It's the choice part that makes the difference.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
Who's to say what Hawke has been up to in the random 3 year breaks.  I like to picture Hawke buying a lovely tropical island with no crazy mages or oppressive Templars in sight.  She's planning for her retirement, my Hawke is.  All this mage war hubub is messing with her tan lines.  invest in real estate as far away from Kirkwall as possible friends.  Fenris doesn't like to move in, so he's got the bungalow down the shore.

There's just too much unaccounted for time in the game.  It's hard for me to role play a Hawke who's all caught up in mage freedom, but does nothing for years at a time.  There's no reason why Hawke wouldn't have been working on something during those years if s/he's any kind of upstanding citizen.  Whether you think the mages are right, the Templars or Elthina and her wistful dreams of compromise it's hard to imagine watching your adopted city get swallowed up in this chaos and well, what?  You're too busy telling Varric your story for his biography?

My Hawke should've stayed there then.  Lawl at Fenris having a bungalow. 

I guess Hawke was. My Hawkes are just bored I guess. I RP most of them as laid back I could see my aggressive Hawkes trying to get into arguements with Anders/Fenris just to do something. 

[Deztyn]

GavrielKay wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

It's your fault for siding with the mages and choosing to fight against Carver and the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

In my case, Hawke already didn't care what Carver thought.  He became a Templar despite me being a mage and having deep mistrust and almost hatred of them.  If he's a big boy enough to do that, he's big enough to live with the consequences.

Fair enough. My last mage Hawke encouraged him down the templar path after doing his personal quest. She sided templar and it made for a nice reunion at the Gallows. "I'm proud to call you sister." Since I actually like Carver it was a D'awww moment for me.<3

[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

You are defending the innocent mages...

...by killing the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

No.

Yes.

 

I am defending innocent mages. Period.

From the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

End of discussion.

Are you willing to admit that you are causing Carver emotional distress by choosing to side against him and the people he has lived with and trained with for years?

It's up to Carver whether or not he wants to side with a madwoman and attack the innocent.  That is NOT my decision and I am not morally responsible for it.

-Polaris

But it IS your decision to turn against him and fight the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

[Bigdoser]

Honestly I think carver is better off as a grey warden I don't want my brother to be a lyrium addicted druggie. Then has to jump at the chantry every whim or he won't get his "fix" I would not want that for any of my family so i make sure I ship him off with the grey warden's personally I think carver can carve a better path for himself if he is with the grey wardens.

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

You are defending the innocent mages...

...by killing the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

No.

Yes.

Again NO.  If the Templars CHOOSE to attack you, you are not morally responsible.  All people have an innate and inalienable right to self-defense.

 

I am defending innocent mages. Period.

From the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

Does Not Matter.  Carver can CHOOSE not to attack me.  Becasue it's his choice, I am not responsible.

End of discussion.

Are you willing to admit that you are causing Carver emotional distress by choosing to side against him and the people he has lived with and trained with for years?

It's up to Carver whether or not he wants to side with a madwoman and attack the innocent.  That is NOT my decision and I am not morally responsible for it.

-Polaris

But it IS your decision to turn against him and fight the people he has lived with and trained with for years.

Wrong is wrong.  If Carver makes the wrong choice, then may the Maker have mercy on his soul.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 mai 2011 - 08:02 .

[IanPolaris]

Bigdoser wrote...

Honestly I think carver is better off as a grey warden I don't want my brother to be a lyrium addicted druggie. Then has to jump at the chantry every whim or he won't get his "fix" I would not want that for any of my family so i make sure I ship him off with the grey warden's personally I think carver can carve a better path for himself if he is with the grey wardens.

Also, Carver becomes a much happier and much more well adjusted person as a Grey Warden since he know has an indisputably important cause of his own that he can live with and identify with.  Carver always struck me as a poor templar who did it in large part to get back at his mage brother and sister and found he regretted it badly.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

blah blah blah you and IanPolaris are just saying the same thing over again.

No.

Yes.

No.

Yes.


I feel like I'm watching two Qunari Kossith bicker


NOTE: I'm not being rude, so don't think I'm coming off as such. That's just what it looked like and I'm making a joke to reflect that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2011 - 08:24 .

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

blah blah blah you and IanPolaris are just saying the same thing over again.

No.

Yes.

No.

Yes.


I feel like I'm watching two Qunari Kossith bicker


NOTE: I'm not being rude, so don't think I'm coming off as such. That's just what it looked like and I'm making a joke to reflect that.

I suppose it does.  He is asking me to accept something that no one has accepted in Western Ethics since the Ancient Greeks (and not even then).  Basically, you can not be held accountable for the choices of another.

Since Carver has a choice, you aren't accountable.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

[Deztyn]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

You are defending the innocent mages...

...by killing the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

[/quote]

No.[/quote]

Yes.
[/quote]

Again NO.  If the Templars CHOOSE to attack you, you are not morally responsible.  All people have an innate and inalienable right to self-defense.
[/quote]

Again yes. You are not a Circle mage, the templars only attack you if you turn against them. Hawke's choice.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote] 

I am defending innocent mages. Period.[/quote]

From the people Carver has lived with and trained with for years.
[/quote]

Does Not Matter.  Carver can CHOOSE not to attack me.  Becasue it's his choice, I am not responsible.
[/quote]

And you can choose not to side with the mages.

[quote][quote][quote]
End of discussion.
[/quote]

Are you willing to admit that you are causing Carver emotional distress by choosing to side against him and the people he has lived with and trained with for years?

[quote]
It's up to Carver whether or not he wants to side with a madwoman and attack the innocent.  That is NOT my decision and I am not morally responsible for it.

-Polaris[/quote]

But it IS your decision to turn against him and fight the people he has lived with and trained with for years.
[/quote]

Wrong is wrong.  If Carver makes the wrong choice, then may the Maker have mercy on his soul.

-Polaris[/quote]

Whether Carver makes the right choice, or the wrong choice, it doesn't change the fact that you also have a choice. And your choice is to side with the mages and fight the people that your baby brother has lived with and trained with for years.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 mai 2011 - 08:33 .

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

NOTE: I'm not being rude, so don't think I'm coming off as such. That's just what it looked like and I'm making a joke to reflect that.

Rude? Hah. You've summed up the conversation pretty well.

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

Again yes. You are not a Circle mage, the templars only attack you if you turn against them. Hawke's choice.

Point.  Missing it...bigtime.  Yes, the decision to defend the mages is my choice.  The decision for the Templars to attack me afterwords is NOT my choice.  Each templar chooses that for themselves.  They are not obligated to attack me just because I side with the mages.  They CHOOSE to follow the orders of a madwoman and commit genocide.

I am not responsible for the choices of others.  That isn't the way it works.

And you can choose not to side with the mages.

So what?  Carver can chose not to follow the orders of a madwoman.  I am not responsible for Carver's bad choices.

Whether Carver makes the right choice, or the wrong choice, it doesn't change the fact that you also have a choice. And your choice is to side with the mages and fight the people that your baby brother has lived with and trained with for years.

You are trying to get me to agree to negative responsibility which I never, EVER will.  Just becasue I choose to side with the mages does NOT change the fact that Carver can choose NOT to attack.  It's his choice and his responsibility, not mine.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Again yes. You are not a Circle mage, the templars only attack you if you turn against them. Hawke's choice.

Point.  Missing it...bigtime.  Yes, the decision to defend the mages is my choice.  The decision for the Templars to attack me afterwords is NOT my choice.  Each templar chooses that for themselves.  They are not obligated to attack me just because I side with the mages.  They CHOOSE to follow the orders of a madwoman and commit genocide.

I am not responsible for the choices of others.  That isn't the way it works.

And you can choose not to side with the mages.

So what?  Carver can chose not to follow the orders of a madwoman.  I am not responsible for Carver's bad choices.

Whether Carver makes the right choice, or the wrong choice, it doesn't change the fact that you also have a choice. And your choice is to side with the mages and fight the people that your baby brother has lived with and trained with for years.

You are trying to get me to agree to negative responsibility which I never, EVER will.  Just becasue I choose to side with the mages does NOT change the fact that Carver can choose NOT to attack.  It's his choice and his responsibility, not mine.

-Polaris

You are choosing the side of the mages, in so doing, you are also choosing to attack the Templars. Or are you saying you wouldn't attack the Templars if they just ignored you, and went after the mages only?

Deztyn, you really shouldn't bother. Hypocrisy is the bread and butter of the pro-mages side. Just accept it.

[Well]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

blah blah blah you and IanPolaris are just saying the same thing over again.

No.

Yes.

No.

Yes.


I feel like I'm watching two Qunari Kossith bicker


NOTE: I'm not being rude, so don't think I'm coming off as such. That's just what it looked like and I'm making a joke to reflect that.

I suppose it does.  He is asking me to accept something that no one has accepted in Western Ethics since the Ancient Greeks (and not even then).  Basically, you can not be held accountable for the choices of another.

Since Carver has a choice, you aren't accountable.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

Wrong.Leaders have been held to account for the action of their personnel,troops,people or whoever is in their command structure..

[asindre]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You are choosing the side of the mages, in so doing, you are also choosing to attack the Templars. Or are you saying you wouldn't attack the Templars if they just ignored you, and went after the mages only?

I think you're forgetting which side wants to fight. (hint, it's not the mages)
You're not choosing to attack the templars, you're just choosing to defend the mages.
If the templars had chosen not to attack, the mages and hawke would have no reason to kill them

[EmperorSahlertz]

asindre wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You are choosing the side of the mages, in so doing, you are also choosing to attack the Templars. Or are you saying you wouldn't attack the Templars if they just ignored you, and went after the mages only?

I think you're forgetting which side wants to fight. (hint, it's not the mages)
You're not choosing to attack the templars, you're just choosing to defend the mages.
If the templars had chosen not to attack, the mages and hawke would have no reason to kill them

Irrelevant. Polaris is trying to advocate self-defense. What he is describing is however not self-defense. He joins the Mages, and take their fight as his own. The mages are just defending themselves. A Hawke who joins them, however, is actively choosing to fight the Templars.

[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Again yes. You are not a Circle mage, the templars only attack you if you turn against them. Hawke's choice.

Point.  Missing it...bigtime.  Yes, the decision to defend the mages is my choice.  The decision for the Templars to attack me afterwords is NOT my choice.  Each templar chooses that for themselves.  They are not obligated to attack me just because I side with the mages.  They CHOOSE to follow the orders of a madwoman and commit genocide.

I am not responsible for the choices of others.  That isn't the way it works.

You are responsible for your own choices.

Your choices lead to killing the people that Carver has lived with and trained with for years.

More importantly, you know that your choice will have this consequence.

And you can choose not to side with the mages.

So what?  Carver can chose not to follow the orders of a madwoman.  I am not responsible for Carver's bad choices.

Pay attention. I never asked you to accept responsibility for Carver's choices. I asked you to accept that hurting Carver was a foreseeable consequence of your own choices. Just like hurting Bethany is a foreseeable consequence of siding with the templars.

Whether Carver makes the right choice, or the wrong choice, it doesn't change the fact that you also have a choice. And your choice is to side with the mages and fight the people that your baby brother has lived with and trained with for years.

You are trying to get me to agree to negative responsibility which I never, EVER will. 

Just becasue I choose to side with the mages does NOT change the fact that Carver can choose NOT to attack.  It's his choice and his responsibility, not mine.

-Polaris

But it if you do choose to side with the mages, the people he has lived with and trained with for --- actually forget it. It's clearly not sinking in.


I was responding to a post that mentioned Bethany's emotional distress over siding with the templars. I said siding with the mages would likewise cause Carver emotional distress.  Specifically, "And if you are mage, supporting the mages means turning against your brother and killing the people that he's lived and trained with for years." There was nothing in that statement you initially quoted that indicated I was making any judgment about the righteousness of siding with either.

You cried genocide.

Whatever.

It still doesn't change the simple fact that you are turning against Carver. Just like a rogue or warrior siding templar is turning against Bethany. Your belief that one side is more justified than the other is irrelevant. That one side has more options is irrelevant. It's still Hawke killing people that her sibling has "lived with and trained with for years" A choice that Hawke knows she is making when she decides to 'defend the mages' because Hawke knows that fighting the Right of Annulment will involve fighting the templars, and Hawke knows that her brother is a templar and has been for years.

Note: I never said anything about the morality of the situation, or asked you take responsibility for Carver's actions. Just asked you to acknowledge that when you side mages hurting Carver is a consequence of that action. Anything else was just you reading too much into my posts.

[Deztyn]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

asindre wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You are choosing the side of the mages, in so doing, you are also choosing to attack the Templars. Or are you saying you wouldn't attack the Templars if they just ignored you, and went after the mages only?

I think you're forgetting which side wants to fight. (hint, it's not the mages)
You're not choosing to attack the templars, you're just choosing to defend the mages.
If the templars had chosen not to attack, the mages and hawke would have no reason to kill them

Irrelevant. Polaris is trying to advocate self-defense. What he is describing is however not self-defense. He joins the Mages, and take their fight as his own. The mages are just defending themselves. A Hawke who joins them, however, is actively choosing to fight the Templars.

Well, technically Hawke could be considered to be acting in defense of others. But the Right of Annulment is legal. Hawke knows that siding with the mages will involve fighting and killing the templars that are charged with enacting the legal Right. So I consider Hawke responsible for the deaths of any templars that result from the crime of defending the mages.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, that doesn't really work. The Annulment begins after Hawke chooses sides; when Hawke chooses the side of the mages, she isn't choosing violence, just solidarity. She is then attacked by the templars just like everyone else... so yes, it is self-defense. Especially since Hawke doesn't even have to sympathize with the mages for this, because Meredith says outright that she'll kill Hawke if she doesn't participate in the Annulment.

[Deztyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, that doesn't really work. The Annulment begins after Hawke chooses sides; when Hawke chooses the side of the mages, she isn't choosing violence, just solidarity. She is then attacked by the templars just like everyone else... so yes, it is self-defense. Especially since Hawke doesn't even have to sympathize with the mages for this, because Meredith says outright that she'll kill Hawke if she doesn't participate in the Annulment.

Humm. Maybe I needed to replay that section as a mage supporter again. As I remember it, Meredith has already stated that she's invoking the Right of Annulment. When Hawke chooses sides she's choosing knowing that it's going to come to fighting. And Hawke still chooses to get involved further rather than just leave after the initial fight. She's still acting illegally either way.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 mai 2011 - 12:35 .

[The Baconer]

Deztyn wrote...
Whether Carver makes the right choice, or the wrong choice, it doesn't change the fact that you also have a choice. And your choice is to side with the mages and fight the people that your baby brother has lived with and trained with for years.

So?