4350 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Punishment is in the eye of the beholder.  I'd feel awfully punished under the best of circumstances being locked up in a circle.  Depriving someone of their freedom is an extreme action.

Not even remotely. 

They're not being forcibly disabled, they're not being killed. 

Things could be a lot worse. 

Imprisonment is a punishment....especially when no crime has been committed.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

And I don't agree. And we're not gonna come to an agreement.

[SheilaD67]

I think the rest of us should just go away, and let Ian have his day. Yes, I'm being snarky, but there is no debate here. IanPolaris obviously supports terrorism. Hence, we have no where to go but a continual downward spiral into the abyss as there is no argument that will move him from the 'you support genocide' rant he has partaken in.

I am so glad I never had to sit as DM across the table from this guy. Roleplaying would have sucked big time.

[IanPolaris]

Really? I kill the only open terrorist every damn time, and that's Anders...in spite of the fact that his target (if not his method) is in fact justifiable if you want to view it as war.

Anders is a terrorist. He's a terrorist for the right reasons perhaps, but he still kills innocents. I kill him every time for that.

So explain how that makes me a suporter of terrorism. This I'd love to hear.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Ahhh, the UN again.

Did the Thedas UN pass that resolution as well?  Link me to that codex entry, please.

Or, tell me if the UN here in this world recognizes "mage" as a class.

No?  Neither?  Okay then.  Moving on.

The players are going to be from the modern world and thus genocide has meaning to the players.  The moral choices are geared towards the modern audience and so we need to use modern standards.  Mage is most certainly an 'ethinic' group (at the very least) in Thedas by any reasonable standard and so the world applies.
 
It's genocide.  Stop trying to get around it.

-Polaris

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Ahhh, the UN again.

Did the Thedas UN pass that resolution as well?  Link me to that codex entry, please.

Or, tell me if the UN here in this world recognizes "mage" as a class.

No?  Neither?  Okay then.  Moving on.

They defined the word.  How is that so hard to understand?  Stop trying to sugar coat your genocide and we'll stop trying to show how you're sugar coating genocide.

Genocide is a term defined by an organization that doesn't exist on Thedas.  I don't care what world I'm from, when I'm playing DA2, I'm some dude named Hawke from Thedas.  Which has no UN.  Which has no defined term such as "genocide".  Which has mages.

We also, in this world, have laws pertaining to the purchase and carrying of weapons.  Should thos elaws be applied in Thedas too?

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Ryzaki]

Eva Galana wrote...

I think the rest of us should just go away, and let Ian have his day. Yes, I'm being snarky, but there is no debate here. IanPolaris obviously supports terrorism. Hence, we have no where to go but a continual downward spiral into the abyss as there is no argument that will move him from the 'you support genocide' rant he has partaken in.

I am so glad I never had to sit as DM across the table from this guy. Roleplaying would have sucked big time.

I don't know. 

There's nothing wrong RP evil characters (not that someone has to be evil to side with the templars. Most of my evil characters side with the mages). It can be fun. Heck they're some of my favorite Rps. 

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Simple. A drunk driver will very rarely kill 70 people in one go. An abomination can. A drunk driver doesn't need a small squad of templars to take them down. (Not saying multiple drunk drivers won't kill 70 people, but multiple abominations will kill a lot more). 

So human rights boils down to numbers?  If more people think it'd be nice to have slaves do their work for them, then slavery is ok?  If the majority of people decide that someday an AI could destroy the world, we'd better lock up all the computer programmers.  I don't buy then numbers argument.

And I justify someone else's freedom being on the list of things we will sacrifice because they are by their nature far more of a danger than a drunk driver. 

So take a nuclear scientist.  Should we lock up anyone who knows how to make a nuclear bomb because they could kill millions of people with what they know?

No. Depends on why someone's being imprisoned. 

If someone has an infectious disease and they're placed in isolation I don't consider that a punishment. Just a safety precaution. 

And it would be an individual decision based on a person who was an immediate threat.  The difference is considering every mage worth locking up because some day they might do something bad.

[IanPolaris]

Genocide is a word that is expressly defined by General Assembly Resolution 260. As such, it is proper and necessary to refer to it when I call an action genocidal, and this fits the definition. The fact the UN itself doesn't exist in Thedas is irrelevant to my right to use the word to describe Meredith's actions.

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Ahhh, the UN again.

Did the Thedas UN pass that resolution as well?  Link me to that codex entry, please.

Or, tell me if the UN here in this world recognizes "mage" as a class.

No?  Neither?  Okay then.  Moving on.

The players are going to be from the modern world and thus genocide has meaning to the players.  The moral choices are geared towards the modern audience and so we need to use modern standards.  Mage is most certainly an 'ethinic' group (at the very least) in Thedas by any reasonable standard and so the world applies.
 
It's genocide.  Stop trying to get around it.

-Polaris

I'd argue whether modern morality even has a place in a fictional world that doesn't recognize modern standards. 

It's a roleplaying game; meaning I'm trying to get into a mindset of a person living in those times and abiding by morals and norms that are present there.

[IanPolaris]

I have no issues with RPing evil characters or making evil decisions in a game...as long as you (the real life person) know that they are in fact evil.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Does it really matter if she is innately incompetent or incompetent because of the idol or a combination of both?

At the end of the day, you have someone who is incompetent and who has more power than she should (and who wants more).

Well Knight, considering that we hardly see Meredith during act 1, it's hard to judge how effective she is without the idol's influence. You could argue that Kirkwall is pretty stable during act 1.

Problems were arising even in Act 1, specifically the alienation of the populace that gradually got worse.

But in any case again, it doesn't matter to me whether Meredith was naturally or artifically incompetent.
It may have mattered if her character is of any interest to me, but considering the lack of interaction and character development, I am completely indifferent to her as a person.

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

I have no issues with RPing evil characters or making evil decisions in a game...as long as you (the real life person) know that they are in fact evil.

-Polaris

The small problem with that is what's evil varies by invidiual. 

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Genocide is a word that is expressly defined by General Assembly Resolution 260. As such, it is proper and necessary to refer to it when I call an action genocidal, and this fits the definition. The fact the UN itself doesn't exist in Thedas is irrelevant to my right to use the word to describe Meredith's actions.

-Polaris

Cool..

The fact that it doesn't exist in Thedas is relevant to my right to ignore your use of the word.

Glad we agree. 

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

I'd argue whether modern morality even has a place in a fictional world that doesn't recognize modern standards. 

It's a roleplaying game; meaning I'm trying to get into a mindset of a person living in those times and abiding by morals and norms that are present there.

Sure it does.  Almost every single moral choice in DAO, DA2 (and for that matter ME and ME2) involve moral quesitons from the perspective of a MODERN understanding of morality.  The choice we have to make in Orzammar is borderline brilliant that way (both the decision to recover or not recover the knowledge of Golem crafting once we know the price AND the choice of who should be king).

If the choices and game reflected a true Late Middle-ages/Early Rennassiance mentality, the choices and atmosphere would be much different, I promise you (for example, Meredith wouldn't have even bothered to talk to the crowd at the start of Act three....it would have been an open bloodbath withoiut debate).

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Master Shiori wrote...

It's in act 3, when the idols influence firmly takes hold on Meredith, that she goes completely paranoid and that's when we start interacting with her on regular basis.

And it's in Act 3 when we're expected to take Meredith's word for it that the RoA will save more lives and be better for Kirkwall.  This woman who hates mages and has been driven mad by a plot device shouldn't be trusted to have even entertained any alternatives to the RoA.  She wanted to do it at the beginning of Act 3, got her excuse from Anders and then tried to pressure Hawke into going along with her plan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ TJ

I personally do not think Hawke would understand what genocide means (and not entirely because he is a moron).
But as players (or indeed, as individuals), we can define actions by our modern understanding, regardless of the time and place such an action has occured.  

But the problem here (like almost everywhere else on the forums), is that the distinction between in-game and out-game thoughts are not made clear. Hawke probably doesn't have a clue what genocide is if he was asked. That doesn't mean players don't and a reasonable argument can be made that the annulment is a genocide. How relevent you think that is, is up to you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[Sylvianus]

IanPolaris wrote...

I have no issues with RPing evil characters or making evil decisions in a game...as long as you (the real life person) know that they are in fact evil.

-Polaris

In real life you'll never experience this kind of situation. In real life you'll never be on the ground instead of Hawke, between two factions that hate each other and are ready to kill each other. In real life, you will not have the fate of an entire city into your hands. In real life, you will not try to remember the definition of UN, then judge rather on the ground, with your experience and your eyes.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I have no issues with RPing evil characters or making evil decisions in a game...as long as you (the real life person) know that they are in fact evil.

-Polaris

The small problem with that is what's evil varies by invidiual. 

I deny this.  Evil (or more appropriately "immoral acts") can be well defined independant of the individual.  To think otherwise only excuses such acts in one's own mind.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
So human rights boils down to numbers?  If more people think it'd be nice to have slaves do their work for them, then slavery is ok?  If the majority of people decide that someday an AI could destroy the world, we'd better lock up all the computer programmers.  I don't buy then numbers argument.

Why would computer programmers have to be locked up because of an AI? That doesn't even make any sense.  

As for slavery. Slavery was legal for a very very long time. It however isn't simply imprisonment. It's complete dehumanization. I don't support that in any form. 

Taking someone into a tower and locking them up is not as dehumanizing as slavery. They don't become property, they shouldn't be open to rape and abuse (this is probably illegal and the templars that did it should've been harshly reprimanded as though they'd raped a normal civilian. Maybe even harsher), they can't be sold to another master on a whim (fairly certain transferring from circles is something that happens due to emergencies (like the Circle catching on fire) 

So take a nuclear scientist.  Should we lock up anyone who knows how to make a nuclear bomb because they could kill millions of people with what they know?

No because a neclear scientist can't make a bomb on their own. There's this magical thing called funding they need. Those bombs aint cheap. 

And it would be an individual decision based on a person who was an immediate threat.  The difference is considering every mage worth locking up because some day they might do something bad.

And I agree with it while you don't. So agree to disagree because neither of us are moving from our position. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 11:54 .

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I have no issues with RPing evil characters or making evil decisions in a game...as long as you (the real life person) know that they are in fact evil.

-Polaris

The small problem with that is what's evil varies by invidiual. 

I deny this.  Evil (or more appropriately "immoral acts") can be well defined independant of the individual.  To think otherwise only excuses such acts in one's own mind.

-Polaris

 

Right we're not going to agree on anything. 

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Genocide is a word that is expressly defined by General Assembly Resolution 260. As such, it is proper and necessary to refer to it when I call an action genocidal, and this fits the definition. The fact the UN itself doesn't exist in Thedas is irrelevant to my right to use the word to describe Meredith's actions.

-Polaris

Cool..

The fact that it doesn't exist in Thedas is relevant to my right to ignore your use of the word.

Glad we agree. 

Nope.  I will use the word because it fits the crime and the definition.  Please don't sugar coat it or try to deny it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

No because a neclear scientist can't make a bomb on their own. There's this magical thing called funding they need. Those bombs aint cheap. 

True but it's actually shockingly easy to make one.  The only real obstical is getting enough fissile material of sufficient purity.  The actual engineering after that is almost ridiculously easy (the timing sensors are the hardest part and there are designs that get around that at least for U-235 weapons).

However, I'll counter that every person with a background in AP Highschool Chemistry can make a bomb on their own with stuff you can buy at the local hardware store, and it will be far more damaging than any spell we see in the game.  In fact such a person could duplicate (more or less) what Anders does.

Thus all Highschool graduates should be locked away for public safety.  Right.....

-POlaris

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Genocide is a term defined by an organization that doesn't exist on Thedas.  I don't care what world I'm from, when I'm playing DA2, I'm some dude named Hawke from Thedas.  Which has no UN.  Which has no defined term such as "genocide".  Which has mages.

Hawke not knowing the word "genocide" or the UN definition of it (obvkously) doesn't change the basic idea of killing everyone in a given place who are there by society's rules based on an accident of birth and regardless of any given individual's guilt or innocence.  All based solely on the word of a madwoman who's got a grudge against said group of people.

Call it what you want, it still sounds bad.

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...
True but it's actually shockingly easy to make one.  The only real obstical is getting enough fissile material of sufficient purity.  The actual engineering after that is almost ridiculously easy (the timing sensors are the hardest part and there are designs that get around that at least for U-235 weapons).

However, I'll counter that every person with a background in AP Highschool Chemistry can make a bomb on their own with stuff you can buy at the local hardware store, and it will be far more damaging than any spell we see in the game.  In fact such a person could duplicate (more or less) what Anders does.

Thus all Highschool graduates should be locked away for public safety.  Right.....

-POlaris

Right. Because this person can make said bomb and use even against their will. Without another human forcing them into it.

It's perfectly comparable.  

Let's not mention while they can make bombs the people that will be sent to kill them can make bigger bombs and kill them instantly from a far distance. 

Can't exactly do that with an abomination. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 mai 2011 - 11:57 .