4350 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

So take a nuclear scientist.  Should we lock up anyone who knows how to make a nuclear bomb because they could kill millions of people with what they know?

No because a neclear scientist can't make a bomb on their own. There's this magical thing called funding they need. Those bombs aint cheap. 

I will point out that any scientist with in-depth knowledge of nuclear technology (weaponry especially) is watched extremely closely by multiple national security and intelligence agencies. They are not free to come and go as they please due to the sensitivity of the knowledge they possess. They aren't exactly locked up, but they are restricted in things they can say or do, people they can work for, and places they can go.

[Sylvianus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Really? I kill the only open terrorist every damn time, and that's Anders...in spite of the fact that his target (if not his method) is in fact justifiable if you want to view it as war.

Anders is a terrorist. He's a terrorist for the right reasons perhaps, but he still kills innocents. I kill him every time for that.

So explain how that makes me a suporter of terrorism. This I'd love to hear.

-Polaris

Both surprising and interesting. You did not count on him to lead the revolution?

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I will point out that any scientist with in-depth knowledge of nuclear technology (weaponry especially) is watched extremely closely by multiple national security and intelligence agencies. They are not free to come and go as they please due to the sensitivity of the knowledge they possess. They aren't exactly locked up, but they are restricted in things they can say or do, people they can work for, and places they can go.

Really? I didn't know this. 

Interesting. Thanksfor the insight hooray. 

But...places they an go...they can't visit certain countries then? 

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

I have no issues with RPing evil characters or making evil decisions in a game...as long as you (the real life person) know that they are in fact evil.

-Polaris

Honestly? I'm willing to bet that everyone here knows that.

The point of this discussion isn't to try and justify the templars, mages or RoA by using real world morality, but rather to discuss these things by adhering to morality as it exists in Thedas.

I truly doubt that anyone who's taking part in this discussion would support genocide in real life.

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So take a nuclear scientist.  Should we lock up anyone who knows how to make a nuclear bomb because they could kill millions of people with what they know?

No because a neclear scientist can't make a bomb on their own. There's this magical thing called funding they need. Those bombs aint cheap. 

I will point out that any scientist with in-depth knowledge of nuclear technology (weaponry especially) is watched extremely closely by multiple national security and intelligence agencies. They are not free to come and go as they please due to the sensitivity of the knowledge they possess. They aren't exactly locked up, but they are restricted in things they can say or do, people they can work for, and places they can go.

Since I am such a scientist, that is not entirely so.  *I* am because I used to work for the USAF on some stuff that is still so classified I don't even like to think about it.  However, anyone with even a modicum knowledge of nuclear engineering and nuclear physics (including the ability to make field theory cross section calculations) can in principle design a bomb...and no these people are not "watched super closely"  That's hollywood bunk.  There are too many.

What intelligence agencies DO, however, is watch the needed technlogy (especially for refining fissile material) extremely closely.

-Polaris

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...

Thus all Highschool graduates should be locked away for public safety.  Right.....

-POlaris

It's more along these lines.  There are people out there that can become maniac raging killers, either because they want to or purely not though their own fault.  We have discovered and indentified this gene and thus we know for sure those who are at risk from a young age.  We know this because in the past they have indeed gone beserk and are so powerful the average person cannot stop them before many people are killed.

Now what do we do about it?  I can guarantee you that after two or three bad incidents that these people would not be allowed the freedom to live the way they want.  And if they did they would be social pariahs and no one would want to live anywhere near them or have anything to do with them.

That is much closer to the mage situation than people who have to go out of their way to research and or build a bomb.

Indeed for those that are good people and never succumb to the problem it would suck.  In the end tough luck, it's like getting a disease at a young age, not your fault but you are subject to the effects of that disease.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
What intelligence agencies DO, however, is watch the needed technlogy (especially for refining fissile material) extremely closely.

-Polaris

To bring it back to Thedas. What ought to be watched very closely is the lyrium for a variety of reasons.

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I will point out that any scientist with in-depth knowledge of nuclear technology (weaponry especially) is watched extremely closely by multiple national security and intelligence agencies. They are not free to come and go as they please due to the sensitivity of the knowledge they possess. They aren't exactly locked up, but they are restricted in things they can say or do, people they can work for, and places they can go.

Really? I didn't know this. 

Interesting. Thanksfor the insight hooray. 

But...places they an go...they can't visit certain countries then? 

Correct. If you're a nuclear scientist and you decide to visit, say, Dubai, Baghdad, or Tehran, you're likely going to have some fairly serious TSA issues. Information has always been sensitive. If they allowed nuclear scientists free traveling/working privileges like everyone else, news stories like this wouldn't be as big a deal, and any third world country could likely develop nuclear armaments by offering a portion of their GDP to scientists to come build them weapons.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I will point out that any scientist with in-depth knowledge of nuclear technology (weaponry especially) is watched extremely closely by multiple national security and intelligence agencies. They are not free to come and go as they please due to the sensitivity of the knowledge they possess. They aren't exactly locked up, but they are restricted in things they can say or do, people they can work for, and places they can go.

Really? I didn't know this. 

Interesting. Thanksfor the insight hooray. 

But...places they an go...they can't visit certain countries then? 

I hold an (inactive) TS:Codeword clearence.  Such people with active clearences have to get special permission to visit certain places and some places are forbidden.  In addition, if you are contacted (even casually) by nationals of certain countries, you have to report that to your security manager.  For example when I was in grad school and still had my active USAF clearence, I had a co-worker on a project team that was from the PRC.

I had to report that.  It was routrine since it had nothing to do with anything sensitifve (and they already knew about it I was told) but that was the procedure.  However, that clearence is not given just because you get a degree in nuclear chemistry, physics or engineering.  There are too many people to keep track of in this way (and it costs too damn much honestly).  Such oversight is restricted to very specific people with very specific kinds of knowledge.  That is as much as I can say about that...except it's not about what you are but what you CHOOSE to be.  You aren't forced to be under this kind of scrutiny. You CHOOSE to be (at least in the US).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

I hold an (inactive) TS:Codeword clearence.  Such people with active clearences have to get special permission to visit certain places and some places are forbidden.  In addition, if you are contacted (even casually) by nationals of certain countries, you have to report that to your security manager.  For example when I was in grad school and still had my active USAF clearence, I had a co-worker on a project team that was from the PRC.

I had to report that.  It was routrine since it had nothing to do with anything sensitifve (and they already knew about it I was told) but that was the procedure.  However, that clearence is not given just because you get a degree in nuclear chemistry, physics or engineering.  There are too many people to keep track of in this way (and it costs too damn much honestly).  Such oversight is restricted to very specific people with very specific kinds of knowledge.  That is as much as I can say about that...except it's not about what you are but what you CHOOSE to be.  You aren't forced to be under this kind of scrutiny. You CHOOSE to be (at least in the US).

-Polaris

And what you just say no and they leave you alone? 

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I will point out that any scientist with in-depth knowledge of nuclear technology (weaponry especially) is watched extremely closely by multiple national security and intelligence agencies. They are not free to come and go as they please due to the sensitivity of the knowledge they possess. They aren't exactly locked up, but they are restricted in things they can say or do, people they can work for, and places they can go.

Really? I didn't know this. 

Interesting. Thanksfor the insight hooray. 

But...places they an go...they can't visit certain countries then? 

Correct. If you're a nuclear scientist and you decide to visit, say, Dubai, Baghdad, or Tehran, you're likely going to have some fairly serious TSA issues. Information has always been sensitive. If they allowed nuclear scientists free traveling/working privileges like everyone else, news stories like this wouldn't be as big a deal, and any third world country could likely develop nuclear armaments by offering a portion of their GDP to scientists to come build them weapons.

Again, not entirely.  You do realize that dozens (at least) of qualified nuclear scientists from suspect countries get trained and get degrees in the US and Western Europe every year?  You do realize that if you can perform basic field theory calculations for cross-sectional particle interactions (which is most of the particle and/or solid-state students that get an advanced degree in physics or nuclear engineering), you can design a workable (1940s style) bomb?  It's the technology not people that are watched very closely.

-Polaris

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I don't think anyone denies that it's caused suffering. The main question is how much suffering has it prevented? And is completely destroying the existing system worthwhile if there's no guarantee that something worse isn't going to take it's place?

I'm unconvinced it's prevented *any* suffering. Most of the abominations and maleficar encountered are because of the Chantry's heavy-handed rules. Very few of them want "real ultimate power!" like Huon, most of them just want basic freedoms.

Amelia, Olivia and Connor are all examples of what can happen when the rules aren't followed.

Quentin is an example of a Maleficar motivated by things other than ultimate power.

Idunna and Tarohne are examples of mages that are motivated by the desire for ultimate power.

Zathrian and Velenna are examples of mages who have personal motivations and are able to cause massive destruction only because they are mages.

Wilhem and Avernus are examples of mages who screw up with the very best of intentions.

Some of the Mage Underground quests in Origins involved dealing with Apostate maleficar.

There are plenty of examples of mages doing bad things for reasons other than "The Circle made them do it." It's not unreasonable to think with looser restrictions there could be a lot more and not a lot less.

There's no plan by anyone that we've seen as Hawke or the Warden. I'm sure lots of mages have spent years thinking about how to make a better system. King Alistair probably has half a dozen great plans sent to him that are currently collecting dust because the Chantry wouldn't let him use them. And I'm not saying they'll proven completely right in the short term. But that works both ways too, wouldn't you also then have to say the people saying this will lead to another Tevinter would be wrong too?

That depends. If another working system replaces the current one, there's no reason to think Tevinter is an outcome. But that assumes that the mundane majority will go along with it. If the Chantry, the governments and the common people are against mage freedom than a bloody war followed by magocracy or the adaption of even stricter methods of mage control are likely.

Since the majority are Andrastian, I think it's a given that things will get a whole lot worse before they can get better.

I actually suspect that it's going to be a nasty little war, with the more 'evil' side being determined by Hawke's choice, that ends with a forced compromise due to a fight with a third party. (Qunari, Orlesians if we're back in Fereldan, Darkspawn whatever.)

It's not semantics. There's a huge difference between someone committing a crime and someone who got bested by a thief.

Is the tranquil being whipped expressly because something was stolen by someone else or as punishment because something s/he was responsible for went missing?

As to the question, I find it extremely unlikely that such a scenario would occur. For one, very few abominations are interested in running away from a fight. Most of them just attack anything in sight and the few that do strike up a conversation don't flee from aggression. So it would be a very odd case IMO if such an abomination were to try to flee... and then of course, it'd have to be successful in doing so. Then it'd have to be one of the rare ones with a huge body count.

The only abominations we encounter in game that don't have huge body counts are the ones that are dealt with immediately. The intelligence of the abomination depends on what kind of demon is possessing it.

Short term damage. Long term, how would the damage would be lower by the continued reign of the people that pushed it that far? Unless you're metagaming, you'd have to assume that Meredith would be left to continue ruling with an iron fist and all the damage we've seen would just start anew with the next Circle.

Siding with the mages you have no reasonable expectation of winning. It's only metagaming that let's you know that you'll survive, that a few mages will successfully escape, and that you'll be able to kill Meredith. You're not trying to beat the Templars here, you know you're fighting a losing battle you're just trying to kick up enough dust to let a few extra mages escape.

If she wants to execute him, yes. But I've never seen a system where someone in power can just casually give a civilian (Hawke holds no government or Chantry position) the power to act as judge jury and executioner. I'd have to see some evidence that the Chantry's laws work that way. Even I don't think the Chantry is that retarded. And I think they're pretty retarded.

It's no different than Hawke participating in the Right of Annulment. Or Greigor allowing the Warden to do the same.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...
And what you just say no and they leave you alone? 

In my case, yes.  If I had said no, I would have spend the rest of my service as a cook (ok in charge of cooks but you get the idea).

The USAF (and other agencies) don't MAKE you sign your life away to get a TS:Codeword clearance.  You are given the option to opt out.  It's almost always worth your while to say yes, though, and I was and am proud of the work I did.  I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Correct. If you're a nuclear scientist and you decide to visit, say, Dubai, Baghdad, or Tehran, you're likely going to have some fairly serious TSA issues. Information has always been sensitive. If they allowed nuclear scientists free traveling/working privileges like everyone else, news stories like this wouldn't be as big a deal, and any third world country could likely develop nuclear armaments by offering a portion of their GDP to scientists to come build them weapons.

 

True...one would wonder why every country didn't have a nuclear weapon in that case. 

Still I find it hard to believe they don't have any scientists with that knowledge. Surely it can't be that difficult if they're willing to pour enough resources into it. 

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...
And what you just say no and they leave you alone? 

In my case, yes.  If I had said no, I would have spend the rest of my service as a cook (ok in charge of cooks but you get the idea).

The USAF (and other agencies) don't MAKE you sign your life away to get a TS:Codeword clearance.  You are given the option to opt out.  It's almost always worth your while to say yes, though, and I was and am proud of the work I did.  I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ TJ

I personally do not think Hawke would understand what genocide means (and not entirely because he is a moron).
But as players (or indeed, as individuals), we can define actions by our modern understanding, regardless of the time and place such an action has occured.  

But the problem here (like almost everywhere else on the forums), is that the distinction between in-game and out-game thoughts are not made clear. Hawke probably doesn't have a clue what genocide is if he was asked. That doesn't mean players don't and a reasonable argument can be made that the annulment is a genocide. How relevent you think that is, is up to you.

See, you get it.  Which is why, while we often disagree, debates with you are fun.

The key is, as in yout second sentence, we can choose to make choices with our modern understanding in mind.  Or we can choose to try and play with the undersanding of a person from Hawke's world, who would NOT view this act as genocide, or morally wrong, but would view it as either the right thing to do in this situation or not.

Yes, a reasonable argument could certainly be made that if the situation arose in our world, the RoA would be genocide.  The problem, I suppose, is that some people are so obsessed with how it would be viewed in our world that they insist everyone must see it in the same light.  Me, I'm playing a game - I don't care how it's viewed in our world, I care how it's viewed in THAT world.

In the world of Thedas, I think you'd agree that there are many legitimate reasons to view the RoA as the right thing to do.  You may personally find other factors (in-game ones) as more important, and thus come to a different conclusion.  I did that myself in my complete game - I opposed Meredith because she showed no interest in punishing the person responsible for the destruction of the Chantry.  That was the only reason.  Had I known, at that point, I'd be able to kill Anders either way, I'd have supported her.

I don't mind if people think the Chantry is evil, or if they think Circles are evil, or if they think the RoA shouldn't have been used.  I mind when people tell me how I should view the game, what I should use to make my choices in-game, and what morality I should use to view those choices.

I'm fine debating the evidence the game gives us to decide whether to invoke the RoA or not.  I dislike being told the RoA is genocide and therefore should never be invoked.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Still I find it hard to believe they don't have any scientists with that knowledge. Surely it can't be that difficult if they're willing to pour enough resources into it. 

As others have mentioned, it's the material, not the knowledge that is rare.

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And what you just say no and they leave you alone? 

In my case, yes.  If I had said no, I would have spend the rest of my service as a cook (ok in charge of cooks but you get the idea).

The USAF (and other agencies) don't MAKE you sign your life away to get a TS:Codeword clearance.  You are given the option to opt out.  It's almost always worth your while to say yes, though, and I was and am proud of the work I did.  I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

...Did they even bother to make sure you'd make a decent chef? 

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Correct. If you're a nuclear scientist and you decide to visit, say, Dubai, Baghdad, or Tehran, you're likely going to have some fairly serious TSA issues. Information has always been sensitive. If they allowed nuclear scientists free traveling/working privileges like everyone else, news stories like this wouldn't be as big a deal, and any third world country could likely develop nuclear armaments by offering a portion of their GDP to scientists to come build them weapons.

 

True...one would wonder why every country didn't have a nuclear weapon in that case. 

Still I find it hard to believe they don't have any scientists with that knowledge. Surely it can't be that difficult if they're willing to pour enough resources into it. 

They do have such scientists, especially now with older ex-Soviet Bloc Scientists and Engineers glutting the market.  The knowledge isn't hard to get.  The technology and the specific calculations for increasing fissile yield are.  It was the difficulty of refining fissile material that tripped up Saddam Hussien (and honestly why we IMO all owe Israel a vote of thanks for Osirik) not the lack of knowledge.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Still I find it hard to believe they don't have any scientists with that knowledge. Surely it can't be that difficult if they're willing to pour enough resources into it. 

As others have mentioned, it's the material, not the knowledge that is rare.

Now that makes sense. 

Heh. And now my curiosty wants to know what exactly are the materials. 

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And what you just say no and they leave you alone? 

In my case, yes.  If I had said no, I would have spend the rest of my service as a cook (ok in charge of cooks but you get the idea).

The USAF (and other agencies) don't MAKE you sign your life away to get a TS:Codeword clearance.  You are given the option to opt out.  It's almost always worth your while to say yes, though, and I was and am proud of the work I did.  I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

...Did they even bother to make sure you'd make a decent chef? 

Are you kidding?  This is the Military we are talking about here.....

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Correct. If you're a nuclear scientist and you decide to visit, say, Dubai, Baghdad, or Tehran, you're likely going to have some fairly serious TSA issues. Information has always been sensitive. If they allowed nuclear scientists free traveling/working privileges like everyone else, news stories like this wouldn't be as big a deal, and any third world country could likely develop nuclear armaments by offering a portion of their GDP to scientists to come build them weapons.

 

True...one would wonder why every country didn't have a nuclear weapon in that case. 

Still I find it hard to believe they don't have any scientists with that knowledge. Surely it can't be that difficult if they're willing to pour enough resources into it. 

They do have such scientists, especially now with older ex-Soviet Bloc Scientists and Engineers glutting the market.  The knowledge isn't hard to get.  The technology and the specific calculations for increasing fissile yield are.  It was the difficulty of refining fissile material that tripped up Saddam Hussien (and honestly why we IMO all owe Israel a vote of thanks for Osirik) not the lack of knowledge.

-Polaris

Then mages aren't equal to scientists at all. They'd be equal to a scientist with a small bomb (a nuke probably does too much collateraldamage) and there's no telling when the weapon might go off. Most of the time it won't but it just might. 

And before you compare abominations to our bombs you have to realize templars =/= police snipers. They have to deal with bomb like destruction without having bombs themselves (thanks for hording that Qunari <_< ) or any ranged weapons better than a bow. And abominations usually take far more than a few shots to take down. Doesn't help that most templars seem to be S&S. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mai 2011 - 12:20 .

[GavrielKay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To bring it back to Thedas. What ought to be watched very closely is the lyrium for a variety of reasons.

So we should lock up all the lyrium smugglers instead.  I like that, they were always underfoot bleeding on everything after I'd wiped them out.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To bring it back to Thedas. What ought to be watched very closely is the lyrium for a variety of reasons.

So we should lock up all the lyrium smugglers instead.  I like that, they were always underfoot bleeding on everything after I'd wiped them out.

And locking up dwarven smugglers would start an international incident. Well possibly anyway. I don't see dwarves reacting well to humans getting in on their business. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mai 2011 - 12:22 .