4350 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigdoser]

Honestly the templars should of been protecting the mages from the said people who demand blood . The fact that none the templars even speak up during the decision  annoys me and because of that I decided to keep anders alive. Thats why when the war business is all over if we get the chance i would establish a new system for mages cause the chantry one ****ing sucks. Yeah chantry your not really helping by saying mages are cursed. (Which I don't believe since healing magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doctors)

Modifié par Bigdoser, 03 mai 2011 - 06:15 .

[The dead fish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Funny, I feel exactly the same about the templars.

Instead, I felt the Templars to be a threat to the Mages, not really for the citizens.

But anyway, I'm not for the Templars, eh. I was even ready to fight against them. But it is the fault of Anders, the extremism of the situation. We have no choice, we must choose. Based our decision, on what we think is best for safety, city, or in line with our moral value.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 mai 2011 - 06:04 .

[DreGregoire]

I agree that supporting Meredith is a bit insane, but then on the other hand *points a finger at the crazy Ferelden Justice possessed, ex-warden, apostate mage beside her* to each his own brand of insane. I still cannot believe both Meredith and Orsino went down the roads they did. And they were there before Anders even blew up the chantry. Kirkwall is one crazy mixed up place. It's a redeeming quality of dragon age 2 in my eyes. I love the way everything played out even if I didn't always enjoy the mechanical paths to that point.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 03 mai 2011 - 06:07 .

[The dead fish]

Personally I think Kirkwall should be destroyed. It is a city without hope, full of demons, blood mages, crazy people.

It is too close to the veil.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 mai 2011 - 06:15 .

[Bigdoser]

I wonder who's idea was to make the circle in a TEVINTER SLAVE PRISON, consirdring how thin the veil is I am not suprised that the mages that go there come out insane and the fact that the chantry employs rapists to watch over people who can throw fireballs. The chantry talks of magic yet they don't know the fundamentals of it.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 03 mai 2011 - 06:13 .

[DreGregoire]

They seriously need some demon and blood mage detectors at the city gates and maybe in every public building too. hahah. Oh let's not forget to detect dangerous mind altering artifacts too. Not as easy as our modern day technology that detects arms and weapons.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 03 mai 2011 - 06:14 .

[Silfren]

DreGregoire wrote...

You are making assumptions about the mind set of devs based on a few modernistic items they added in to honor our modern society and the themes they have borrowed from the history of our various societies. Your assumptions are based on something that doesn't exist. The game developers made up a pretend world where things are pretend including pretend problems, like mages. Pretend politics of non modern societies, your premise is based on your assumptions about the intent of the devs; like they have some agenda to convert our views.

Modern morals and modern mindset only have a place in your view based on your assumptions. I disagree strongly with your assumptions.

You're drawing a line for others to follow? You do not think or reason for others, only for yourself. You use the term evil. I reject the term evil. There is no such thing as evil; there is only negative or positive / bad or good. You want to place the game acts in a pretty little box to make yourself believe that things are only allowed to be within this box, the truth of it is nothing is actually in that box. The box is not a reality. It's an illusion created by your own mindset.

One of the most intriguing aspects of the game, for me at least, is the problem of weighing our comfortable, 21st century moral views against a world that, if not intended to be exactly parallel to the real world Middle Ages, still comes fairly close in terms of technology and political systems.  I saw it quite a lot with people using modernistic ethics to justify siding with the Architect, whereas I, in keeping with the immediate situation faced by the characters of Awakening, thought that that was about as off-the-wall a justification one could choose for the world said characters faced.  Meta-gaming ones personal morals doesn't always make for good roleplay in that kind of setting. 

Among the strangest things for me in attempting to roleplay a Hawke having to deal with the realities of Kirkwall without the luxury of my 21st century mindset, was that her views ended up influencing my own.  Boy, was that just weird.

It's an unfortunate fact that 21st century principles--particularly those borne by people in comfortable 1st World nations who have the freedom to waste time playing video games--simply do not work in the context of such a setting as Dragon Age. 

[The dead fish]

DreGregoire wrote...

They seriously need some demon and blood mage detectors at the city gates and maybe in every public building too. hahah. Oh let's not forget to detect dangerous mind altering artifacts too. Not as easy as our modern day technology that detects arms and weapons.

lol. I agree.

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

In particular, I have never denied that demons are apparently attracted to mages.  I take strong issue with how OFTEN that happens and if the circle system actually works to reduce it...and I take severely strong issue with how Bioware cheated in DA2 to lure us into a false conclusion not only by showing an incredibly skewed sample of mages but by also trying to hide critical information that told us how Kirkwall differed from the rest of Thedas (being a Hellmouth).

-Polaris

You've mentioned that the devs deliberately hid the fact of Kirkwall sitting on top of what is basically a Hellmouth quite a few times.  But that's nonsense.  It isn't hidden at all.  Everyone seems to be well aware of how thin the Veil is in Kirkwall, and the history behind why.  I follow quite a few DA forums and in every topic where this comes up, not one person has ever expressed surprise at this.  Also, I found the codexes in question within a matter of minutes on my first playthrough.  

1. It is NOT hidden information, whatever you claim, and 2) even if it were, to suggest that the game writers went out of their way to hide it specifically to mislead players in a supersekrit attempt to futz with their moral outlook is ridonkulous and for you to have that level of paranoia concerning a fictitious world in a video game is...it's just scary.

[DreGregoire]

Silfren wrote...

One of the most intriguing aspects of the game, for me at least, is the problem of weighing our comfortable, 21st century moral views against a world that, if not intended to be exactly parallel to the real world Middle Ages, still comes fairly close in terms of technology and political systems.  I saw it quite a lot with people using modernistic ethics to justify siding with the Architect, whereas I, in keeping with the immediate situation faced by the characters of Awakening, thought that that was about as off-the-wall a justification one could choose for the world said characters faced.  Meta-gaming ones personal morals doesn't always make for good roleplay in that kind of setting. 

Among the strangest things for me in attempting to roleplay a Hawke having to deal with the realities of Kirkwall without the luxury of my 21st century mindset, was that her views ended up influencing my own.  Boy, was that just weird.

It's an unfortunate fact that 21st century principles--particularly those borne by people in comfortable 1st World nations who have the freedom to waste time playing video games--simply do not work in the context of such a setting as Dragon Age. 

I can totally relate to this. For the longest time when I first started playing roleplaying games I always played this all good will never do anything wrong character, that shared my real world view, or who was maybe even more good than myself. It was fun for a time, but then I made subtle changes and it was just in time too because the game developers seemed to head in a direction that made playing an absolutely morally good character from a modern world view nearly impossible. Dragon Age is definately a game that is directed towards a mature audience that is willing to temporarily adjust their own view to enjoy the fantasy world.

Edit: I have had situations where I have changed my thinking about certain things in the real world based on my experiences in online game playing where I'm interacting with other people. My core beliefs remain the same but I feel that seeing things from a different perspective allows me to readjust and solidify my own values and core beliefs.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 03 mai 2011 - 06:52 .

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

In the situation of Kirkwall, one comes to believe that mages can be corrupted overnight in complete innocence.
As much as I hesitate to confront the Knights Templar, as I did not doubt for a second that the obliteration of the Circle (something I had already made ​​in the first game) was the best solution. But again, I did not do it because I hate mages or whatever, they simply need a purge Kirkwall. It was the best solution.

This isn't the first time that I've read this argument, but we're not really informed about what the mages in the Gallows are that. That isn't to say we don't encounter some mages, but for the most part we meet only a small fraction of them - the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices are never actually met, and this kind of thinking seems to attribute the actions of criminal mages onto the multitude of Circle mages we've never actually meet. Although we encounter a few mages, from villains like Grace to altruists like Bethany, it's still a fairly small and miniscule percentage of Circle mages that doesn't inform us about the mages we haven't met.

The Circle of Kirkwall likely has a larger percentage of men, women, and children living in its halls because it's the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches (with the Starkhaven Circle burned down years prior, and the mages from Starkhaven re-directed to the Gallows) and the myraid of mages inside the Gallows are never encountered by Hawke - the closest we get to seeing what Circle life is like is from Bethany's correspondence.

I don't think it was the best solution, because Meredith invoked it because of Anders' attack on the Chantry. It's clear that the incident was bad enough to spark a rebellion among the mages from the Circles across the entire continent of Thedas, and I'm certain that killing an entire population of Circle mages for something an apostate did played a role in that.

Sylvianus wrote...

Kirkwall is a special case, an extreme case requiring extreme measures. The lower unemployment staying in this city can become a threat in spite of himself.

It should exterminate the Circle, after which we should not rebuild it and send children gifted in magic circles most stable is not built on a tear. We have more demons and other horrors in a quiet Kirkwall than any Ferelden (to take a country known ^ ^).

Shouldn't the argument be to relocate the enchanters, mages, and apprentices rather than kill them?

Sylvianus wrote...

My choice in this game is going thus far, to the Templars who exemplify the Order!

Mages can not be treated as an ordinary citizen with no power. "A moment of madness leads a life of heresy. " Equality is a luxury that mages can not have. The lower default, the least cardinal sin can become absolutely cataclysmic with a mage.

Yet we see templars abusing their authority - Ser Alrik says he'll make the child Ella tranquil and implies he will rape her, while Alain mentions that Ser Kerras was raping him. This is the enviornment that the Kirkwall mages are forced to live under in the Chantry controlled Circle.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

*Judicious snipping...*

This isn't the first time that I've read this argument, but we're not really informed about what the mages in the Gallows are that. That isn't to say we don't encounter some mages, but for the most part we meet only a small fraction of them - the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices are never actually met, and this kind of thinking seems to attribute the actions of criminal mages onto the multitude of Circle mages we've never actually meet. Although we encounter a few mages, from villains like Grace to altruists like Bethany, it's still a fairly small and miniscule percentage of Circle mages that doesn't inform us about the mages we haven't met.

The Circle of Kirkwall likely has a larger percentage of men, women, and children living in its halls because it's the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches (with the Starkhaven Circle burned down years prior, and the mages from Starkhaven re-directed to the Gallows) and the myraid of mages inside the Gallows are never encountered by Hawke - the closest we get to seeing what Circle life is like is from Bethany's correspondence.

I don't think it was the best solution, because Meredith invoked it because of Anders' attack on the Chantry. It's clear that the incident was bad enough to spark a rebellion among the mages from the Circles across the entire continent of Thedas, and I'm certain that killing an entire population of Circle mages for something an apostate did played a role in that.

...

Shouldn't the argument be to relocate the enchanters, mages, and apprentices rather than kill them?

...

Yet we see templars abusing their authority - Ser Alrik says he'll make the child Ella tranquil and implies he will rape her, while Alain mentions that Ser Kerras was raping him. This is the enviornment that the Kirkwall mages are forced to live under in the Chantry controlled Circle.

I wish we could have seen more of the mages within the Circle.  Is there anywhere in the game where it's suggested how many mages are housed in the Gallows?  I agree that most of the apostates we see are apparently used to support the claim that almost all the mages of Kirkwall are corrupt, but that this isn't a fair assessment without knowing how many mages are there.  I've seen a lot of people suggest that there could be hundreds or possibly thousands, but the Gallows doesn't look to me to be quite large enough to hold that many people.  And mages aren't supposed to be a sizeable portion of the overall population, are they?  Then again, as you point out, the number of mages in Kirkwall could be artificially inflated because it's only one of two Circles in the area, and the other one is gone.  Then again, Ferelden's Circle was the only one in Ferelden, and we're never really told how many mages were there prior to Broken Circle.

Unfortunately, one of the answers to the question of whether it's better to relocate the mages instead of executing them, is that the process of relocating them may not be practical if you actually are talking about a substantial number of people, and also if you're (general you, not you personally) arguing that the Circle is corrupt, people are inevitably going to point out that the act of relocation creates a greater risk of possible blood mages being freed onto the larger population, and that point isn't exactly an invalid one.  

[The dead fish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

In the situation of Kirkwall, one comes to believe that mages can be corrupted overnight in complete innocence.
As much as I hesitate to confront the Knights Templar, as I did not doubt for a second that the obliteration of the Circle (something I had already made ​​in the first game) was the best solution. But again, I did not do it because I hate mages or whatever, they simply need a purge Kirkwall. It was the best solution.

This isn't the first time that I've read this argument, but we're not really informed about what the mages in the Gallows are that. That isn't to say we don't encounter some mages, but for the most part we meet only a small fraction of them - the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices are never actually met, and this kind of thinking seems to attribute the actions of criminal mages onto the multitude of Circle mages we've never actually meet. Although we encounter a few mages, from villains like Grace to altruists like Bethany, it's still a fairly small and miniscule percentage of Circle mages that doesn't inform us about the mages we haven't met.

The Circle of Kirkwall likely has a larger percentage of men, women, and children living in its halls because it's the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches (with the Starkhaven Circle burned down years prior, and the mages from Starkhaven re-directed to the Gallows) and the myraid of mages inside the Gallows are never encountered by Hawke - the closest we get to seeing what Circle life is like is from Bethany's correspondence.

I don't think it was the best solution, because Meredith invoked it because of Anders' attack on the Chantry. It's clear that the incident was bad enough to spark a rebellion among the mages from the Circles across the entire continent of Thedas, and I'm certain that killing an entire population of Circle mages for something an apostate did played a role in that.

I agree with what you said.

The problem is that the decision must be taken from our experience in the game, character's experience, what we experienced with the mages for several years. To speculate, to imagine things in the present and dark situation is almost a luxury. Say that mages are mostly innocent without having seen the good side of what they are can be almost impossible. That's why I talk about the situation of Kirkwall, all mages are not stupid, but  Kirkwall really seems cursed. There is no global vision, just the black side.The vision of our character.

How not to think that a very large part of the Mages is corrupt ? Especially since many of them fled, fled not to only be free but also to organize what they call " resistance ". But this resistance can quickly become terrorists in a city already terrified. Seen with Anders, it is not taken away to the military, but for , citizens, innocent to the symbol.

That this divergence that everyone fears. All mages are not dangerous, yeah, but they can be other Anders power.
Kirkwall's circle seems totally chaotic, out of control, and it is from here that we must consider it as a real global threat, the individual cases is very difficult in this kind of unprecedented situation, which happens suddenly and brutally.

In seconds, you can say they are very powerful, and their capacity for harm is extremely dangerous. Powerful and vulnerable at the same time to the call demons. Kirkwall in this extreme situation was in danger, sorry for the innocent, but there are still sad damage at war. It required addressing the situation by eliminating entirely a camp, I chose one that still had the ability to restore order, whatever the price.

So yes, a decision that must be taken within a few seconds in an extreme situation without opportunities to flee, to round the corners. Whichever side one chooses, there will be blood. I can not believe that the circle of Kirkwall contain a majority of innocent after all that has been seen in the game, the scenes we witnessed.

My mother killed by a mage, the betrayal of Grace, each innocent mage become a demon, a plot that goes beyond the Templars, which even exceeds that Orsino has no more control over its mages, a faction working covertly in the circle and to the most dangerous of follies, freedom and will to confrontation in the same time. We know that freedom for mages, it's a fantasy, which may turn into a nightmare, as in the dark days of Empire Tévintide. Mages dominated the world with their armies of demons and abominations, enslaving humanity to their selfish desires.

I agree to say that the Templars are no longer their job, they were tyrannical, and I repeat I do not support then. But Anders forcing things, it is Anders who committed the irreparable and declared war by an unprecedented murder in extreme situation.

So who to choose, Mages or Knights Templar? Few seconds to decide.  So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion, because Anders has exceeded the limits, it showed that ultimately think of the Magi in a gentle, benign, and without liability led that they can betray us.

This is not necessarily a desire, is their vulnerability to the source of their power is at stake ?

And I must tell you that my choice is wrong, why ? Because I asked the Templars to save my sister. I showed selfish. So it is clear that this view is not good either. There is none.

But saving the circle because I know there are people like Bethny is also a selfish thought, given the threat they represent. Hawke must choose a camp that does not like, and save his personal situation. It's like that throughout the game

But Bethany is my sister, I saved her not because it is a mage, but because it's my sister and I love her, that's what makes the difference.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 mai 2011 - 07:48 .

[GavrielKay]

Doesn't Anders talk about saving hundreds of mages using the underground? If hundreds have escaped, there must be quite a few in the circle or either it would be empty or every Templar you walk past should be asking you where all their missing mages are.

Something to ponder: is anyone's feeling of safety worth the cost of another's life?

It's basically saying mages should be locked up for life as soon as their powers awaken so that everyone else doesn't have to worry about living next door to them. And furthermore saying it should be legal - even righteous - to kill them all in their prison if you begin to think that locking them up wasn't sufficient.

I can tell you that if I had a choice between being kept prisoner for life wondering when I'd be raped, humiliated or murdered - I'd be a freaking blood mage too. Geez, who can expect anyone to live like that? It's like the old witch trials where if you drown you were innocent and if you survived you're a witch and get burned at the stake.

Yes, magic can cause harm in ways that a two handed sword can't. But my Hawke was a bloody terror with her daggers. Could you support locking up all rogues because you don't want to think about being assassinated?

I can understand claiming a certain pragmatism to the RoA if your Hawke becomes convinced that more civilians will die if the mages run loose. I really, really hope no-one thinks that what happens to the mages counts as any sort of moral good deed.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Doesn't Anders talk about saving hundreds of mages using the underground? If hundreds have escaped, there must be quite a few in the circle or either it would be empty or every Templar you walk past should be asking you where all their missing mages are.

Only have time right now to address this first bit.  Anders states that he himself personally led five mages to freedom, but I don't think he ever says how many mages were led to freedom by his underground resistance movement.  

I find it hard to believe that hundreds could have escaped without the Templars and Meredith taking notice and razing the Circle into the ground in response.  If that many were disappearing, it would have been mentioned by someone, and I don't think that's ever the case.

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...
You know, I find it just freaking hilarious that you are responding so powerfully to the story created for us, and yet are griping about the story writers for their interpretation of their own story.  It's like being transported back to the release of Book Five and watching Harry Potter fangirls get riled up at Rowling for her interpretation of her own story, and having the audacity to tell her that she's doing it wrong.  Especially the bit about the Chantry.  You've gotten so emotionally involved in the story that you've taken the hardline position that the Chantry's view on mages is pure propaganda, and you're arguing with the lead writer of the bloody story that his opinion on the matter is incorrect!  Dude!  He wrote it, he's the final authority on the "correct" interpretation of his own creation, not you.

That is untrue and fwiw, DG can be wrong about his own lore because he is only one of a TEAM of writers.  I am not saying so in this case, but while DG can define WoG, there are limits even for the authors if you want to maintain core consistancy and continuity in your world.  Fictional worlds can and do have lives of their own.

What I am saying is that DG and his fellow writers are feeding us bad and misleading information.  If you look at the artwork of the Gallows (not the simple courtyard) and listen to the ambient conversaions, it's clear that the gallows can hold hundreds if not thousands of mages.  We know this because the Enigma of Kirkwall specifies that at least this many Tevinter slaves were imprisoned here.

That means we see only a small fraction of the total mages and the very worst ones at that.  In technical terms, it's called "cooking" the data.

Furthermore the fact that Kirkwall is on a damn Hellmouth with a virtually non-existant Viel is damned important information the player deserves to know but this information can only be found if you actually read all the Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries (which very few players will).

This is also dishonest.  Finally we are given no comparison to how often abominations occure outside of Kirkwall, ouside the circle system, or even the rate before and after the circle was implement....yet we know the Templars have this information (because the Templars predate the circle).

We aren't being told.  Why?  I think it's obvious why.  If we were told, we'd find out that not only is the circle system not preventing mages from going bad, but even if you count the abominations outside the towers, you'd probably find there are more than there were when mages were part of society like everyone else.

2. Whether you like it or not, mages have been clearly written to be potential killing machines.  The question of whether it's morally acceptable to kill an innocent person who might be dangerous is not entirely accurate.  You have two issues at hand here: the nature of blood magic is such that it's undetectable. 

1.  Bloodmagic is not evil.  It's dangerous, highly corruptable and probably needs to be illegal for most mages, but bloodmagic by itself is not evil.

2.  Bloodmagic  IS detectable.  Both Anders and Merril can detect traces of blood magic and both do so regularly.  For that matter Mage-Hawke can sense the presence of demons him or herself.

3.  Abominations are the real danger...not bloodmagic (except in so far as bloodmagic MAY make you more suspectible to becoming an abomiantion).  We also know that Abominations can be detected as well....and we DON'T know (and are never told) just how common it is for mages to suddenly become abominations.  The only time we see it spontaneously and unwillingly is in Kirkwall where the viel is almost absent and even then it's far from the norm....but you'd NEVER know that if you didn't carefully read all the codex enties.  The Devs clearly want you to leap to the conc lusion (and theyve all but admitted this) that mages are all bloodthirsty insane maniacs and/or abominations.....when you aren't given all the necessary information and a highly skewed sample set.

Shame.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 mai 2011 - 08:04 .

[GavrielKay]

At the beginning of the Dissent quest, as you come up to the Sewer entrance to the Gallows dungeons, Anders says, "Do not tell anyone about this entrance, it is a secret that has saved the lives of hundreds of mages." He doesn't tell you the time frame, so it could have been quite a number of years, but still that's a pretty big number and makes me think there's quite a few in the circle.

Meredith did want to raze the circle to the ground. If you talk to Cullen before the end game he says that Meredith has already requested the RoA. This is before Anders' destroys the Chantry. She finally decides to just do it when the Chantry blew up because she knew that the people of Kirkwall would support her after the fact once she told them about Anders.

[Xilizhra]

I can understand claiming a certain pragmatism to the RoA if your Hawke becomes convinced that more civilians will die if the mages run loose. I really, really hope no-one thinks that what happens to the mages counts as any sort of moral good deed.

I have bad news for your hope...

[IanPolaris]

Silfren wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In particular, I have never denied that demons are apparently attracted to mages.  I take strong issue with how OFTEN that happens and if the circle system actually works to reduce it...and I take severely strong issue with how Bioware cheated in DA2 to lure us into a false conclusion not only by showing an incredibly skewed sample of mages but by also trying to hide critical information that told us how Kirkwall differed from the rest of Thedas (being a Hellmouth).

-Polaris

You've mentioned that the devs deliberately hid the fact of Kirkwall sitting on top of what is basically a Hellmouth quite a few times.  But that's nonsense.  It isn't hidden at all.  Everyone seems to be well aware of how thin the Veil is in Kirkwall, and the history behind why.  I follow quite a few DA forums and in every topic where this comes up, not one person has ever expressed surprise at this.  Also, I found the codexes in question within a matter of minutes on my first playthrough.  

1. It is NOT hidden information, whatever you claim, and 2) even if it were, to suggest that the game writers went out of their way to hide it specifically to mislead players in a supersekrit attempt to futz with their moral outlook is ridonkulous and for you to have that level of paranoia concerning a fictitious world in a video game is...it's just scary.

It is "hidden" information.  The fact that Kirkwall was built on a Tevinter Blood Alter where the Veil is almost gone is damned important information that we need to evaluate the situation fairly.  As such it should be given just as openly as Cullen's own speaches about mages.  It's not.  You have to hunt for all the codex entries and read all of them (which few players will do) and many of them are in very obsure places that are easy to miss.  Hiding this essential data is EXACTLY what the Devs are doing...and I'm not the only one that's said so.

As for paranoia, I remind you of the old joke....it's not paranoia when everyone really is out to get you.  In this case we really DO have the Devs on record at being dissapointed that people were picking the mages almost be default and they HAVE admitted that mages in DA2 (esp Act 3) were protrayed in a skewed manner at best.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

GavrielKay wrote...

At the beginning of the Dissent quest, as you come up to the Sewer entrance to the Gallows dungeons, Anders says, "Do not tell anyone about this entrance, it is a secret that has saved the lives of hundreds of mages." He doesn't tell you the time frame, so it could have been quite a number of years, but still that's a pretty big number and makes me think there's quite a few in the circle.

Meredith did want to raze the circle to the ground. If you talk to Cullen before the end game he says that Meredith has already requested the RoA. This is before Anders' destroys the Chantry. She finally decides to just do it when the Chantry blew up because she knew that the people of Kirkwall would support her after the fact once she told them about Anders.

Not only that but read the Enigma of Kirkwall entries and LOOK at the background picture of the Gallows during the first cut-scene when Hawke's ship first comes into port.  It's HUGE.  It can easily hold hundreds if not thousands of mages....and we know it did hold thousands of slaves.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

I don't think it's "hidden" information so much as "presentationally botched" information.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think it's "hidden" information so much as "presentationally botched" information.

You say tomato and I say Tomaato.  The point being is the Enigma of Kirkwall contains VITAL information if we (as the player) are going to make a fair and informed choice in the game, but this information is (IMHO anyway) made deliberately obscure and hard to find.

The same applies to the Templar abuses.  We hear about them, but never see them.  It's always second hand which always has a far less emotional impact.  OTOH, those crazy and evill bloodmages are always presented in gory bloody detail including a very overdone presentation of Mother Frankenstein.

Hardly a fair presentation I think.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm.. If the devs had hidden it, it wouldn't have been in the game. The fact that you have to search for the enigma symbolizes that it isn't common knowledge that Kirkwall has such a weak veil. The fact that the enigma is even in the game, proves that the devs wants us to know, but also, that they want us to understand that it isn't common knowledge.

And the more common occurence of Blood Mages than Templar abuse, may also be just that. Blood Mages are more common. Perhaps it is indeed the fairest presentation in the game. That the Tempalrs aren't the monsters you are always quick to declare them, and that Blood Magic is a dangerous and constant temptation for mages. How about that? No, what am I thinking? That would weaken your entire argument, so it must be false of course.

[GavrielKay]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can understand claiming a certain pragmatism to the RoA if your Hawke becomes convinced that more civilians will die if the mages run loose. I really, really hope no-one thinks that what happens to the mages counts as any sort of moral good deed.

I have bad news for your hope...

So you're saying that you think

-taking children from their homes
-raising them under oppression and sometimes outright abuse
-teaching them that they are cursed and dangerous
-making sure they know any offence could lead to their death
-forcing them to confront a demon or be rendered essentially soulless
-being killed with no regard to any direct action they take if enough of their fellow prisoners cause trouble

And then, when those conditions force them to defend themselves, it's still "a moral good deed" to sweep in with your fellow Templars and kill them all?

I'm a bit worried about how anyone can make that mental leap.

[DKJaigen]

Sylvianus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

In the situation of Kirkwall, one comes to believe that mages can be corrupted overnight in complete innocence.
As much as I hesitate to confront the Knights Templar, as I did not doubt for a second that the obliteration of the Circle (something I had already made ​​in the first game) was the best solution. But again, I did not do it because I hate mages or whatever, they simply need a purge Kirkwall. It was the best solution.

This isn't the first time that I've read this argument, but we're not really informed about what the mages in the Gallows are that. That isn't to say we don't encounter some mages, but for the most part we meet only a small fraction of them - the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices are never actually met, and this kind of thinking seems to attribute the actions of criminal mages onto the multitude of Circle mages we've never actually meet. Although we encounter a few mages, from villains like Grace to altruists like Bethany, it's still a fairly small and miniscule percentage of Circle mages that doesn't inform us about the mages we haven't met.

The Circle of Kirkwall likely has a larger percentage of men, women, and children living in its halls because it's the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches (with the Starkhaven Circle burned down years prior, and the mages from Starkhaven re-directed to the Gallows) and the myraid of mages inside the Gallows are never encountered by Hawke - the closest we get to seeing what Circle life is like is from Bethany's correspondence.

I don't think it was the best solution, because Meredith invoked it because of Anders' attack on the Chantry. It's clear that the incident was bad enough to spark a rebellion among the mages from the Circles across the entire continent of Thedas, and I'm certain that killing an entire population of Circle mages for something an apostate did played a role in that.

I agree with what you said.

The problem is that the decision must be taken from our experience in the game, character's experience, what we experienced with the mages for several years. To speculate, to imagine things in the present and dark situation is almost a luxury. Say that mages are mostly innocent without having seen the good side of what they are can be almost impossible. That's why I talk about the situation of Kirkwall, all mages are not stupid, but  Kirkwall really seems cursed. There is no global vision, just the black side.The vision of our character.

How not to think that a very large part of the Mages is corrupt ? Especially since many of them fled, fled not to only be free but also to organize what they call " resistance ". But this resistance can quickly become terrorists in a city already terrified. Seen with Anders, it is not taken away to the military, but for , citizens, innocent to the symbol.

That this divergence that everyone fears. All mages are not dangerous, yeah, but they can be other Anders power.
Kirkwall's circle seems totally chaotic, out of control, and it is from here that we must consider it as a real global threat, the individual cases is very difficult in this kind of unprecedented situation, which happens suddenly and brutally.

In seconds, you can say they are very powerful, and their capacity for harm is extremely dangerous. Powerful and vulnerable at the same time to the call demons. Kirkwall in this extreme situation was in danger, sorry for the innocent, but there are still sad damage at war. It required addressing the situation by eliminating entirely a camp, I chose one that still had the ability to restore order, whatever the price.

So yes, a decision that must be taken within a few seconds in an extreme situation without opportunities to flee, to round the corners. Whichever side one chooses, there will be blood. I can not believe that the circle of Kirkwall contain a majority of innocent after all that has been seen in the game, the scenes we witnessed.

My mother killed by a mage, the betrayal of Grace, each innocent mage become a demon, a plot that goes beyond the Templars, which even exceeds that Orsino has no more control over its mages, a faction working covertly in the circle and to the most dangerous of follies, freedom and will to confrontation in the same time. We know that freedom for mages, it's a fantasy, which may turn into a nightmare, as in the dark days of Empire Tévintide. Mages dominated the world with their armies of demons and abominations, enslaving humanity to their selfish desires.

I agree to say that the Templars are no longer their job, they were tyrannical, and I repeat I do not support then. But Anders forcing things, it is Anders who committed the irreparable and declared war by an unprecedented murder in extreme situation.

So who to choose, Mages or Knights Templar? Few seconds to decide.  So on what I base ? The facts, the past, pragmatism, but also emotion, because Anders has exceeded the limits, it showed that ultimately think of the Magi in a gentle, benign, and without liability led that they can betray us.

This is not necessarily a desire, is their vulnerability to the source of their power is at stake ?

And I must tell you that my choice is wrong, why ? Because I asked the Templars to save my sister. I showed selfish. So it is clear that this view is not good either. There is none.

But saving the circle because I know there are people like Bethny is also a selfish thought, given the threat they represent. Hawke must choose a camp that does not like, and save his personal situation. It's like that throughout the game

But Bethany is my sister, I saved her not because it is a mage, but because it's my sister and I love her, that's what makes the difference.

Lol what bunch of retarded crap. you say you use pragmatism and then continually use the word IF. Let me tell you something. Pragmatism is based on facts not emotion. and you make plenty of decisions on emotion.

P.S.  next time dont write walls of text with this kind crap and get to the point.