4350 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Now that makes sense. 

Heh. And now my curiosty wants to know what exactly are the materials. 

In general that's no big secret.  You need very pure and significant (10s of Kg) quantities of fissile material (U-235, Plutonium, Californium...for true suitcase nukes) and you generally need timers sensitive enough to create a super-critical mass before the nuclear detonation blows away the material before it can properly react (creating a very dirty dud).  This generally requires femto-second timers and rather advanced computing.

These (and the precurser technologies and knowledge) are what intelligence agencies watch like a hawk.  It's also liquid sodium reactors have fallen in severe disfavor for civilian use (since these particular civilian reactors are very easy to convert into military "breeder" reactors for the protduction of plutonium).

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

And locking up dwarven smugglers would start an international incident. Well possibly anyway. I don't see dwarves reacting well to humans getting in on their business. 

Yeah, but I'd fight to eliminate the caste system anyway. 

To be just a touch snarky...  at least we have an actual crime other than being born dwarven to lock them up for.

:innocent:

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

In general that's no big secret.  You need very pure and significant (10s of Kg) quantities of fissile material (U-235, Plutonium, Californium...for true suitcase nukes) and you generally need timers sensitive enough to create a super-critical mass before the nuclear detonation blows away the material before it can properly react (creating a very dirty dud).  This generally requires femto-second timers and rather advanced computing.

These (and the precurser technologies and knowledge) are what intelligence agencies watch like a hawk.  It's also liquid sodium reactors have fallen in severe disfavor for civilian use (since these particular civilian reactors are very easy to convert into military "breeder" reactors for the protduction of plutonium).

-Polaris

And can those materials be used for something other than a bomb? For anything really. 

[LobselVith8]

Eva Galana wrote...

Siding with the Templars give you more of an opportunity to save lives than siding with the mages.

I'm pretty sure murdering an entire popularion of men, women, and children doesn't save as many lives as protecting them from the templars does.

I don't agree with Meredith's decisions to kill every Circle mage on the basis of what the mob wants - executing countless people for the actions of one man is wrong. The templars trying to murder every mage in Kirkwall causes a fight between the two groups in the streets, and it's only cause of Guard-Captain Aveline that the civilians are even safe - because Meredith certainly didn't consider their safety when she started a battle with the Circle mages over an act they were not responsible for.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

And before you compare abominations to our bombs you have to realize templars =/= police snipers. They have to deal with bomb like destruction without having bombs themselves (thanks for hording that Qunari <_< ) or any ranged weapons better than a bow. And abominations usually take far more than a few shots to take down. Doesn't help that most templars seem to be S&S. 

That's the Templars fault.  The mistrust all mages so much that they don't recruit any to help fight the bad ones.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
Yeah, but I'd fight to eliminate the caste system anyway.  

Yes let's see how that works for you. A non dwarf trying to change their way of life. Wonder what'll happen to the LoTD. Hope you enjoy those darkspawn. 

To be just a touch snarky...  at least we have an actual crime other than being born dwarven to lock them up for.

:innocent:

Dwarves don't turn into rampaging beasts that destroy everything around them friend or foe. 

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

That's the Templars fault.  The mistrust all mages so much that they don't recruit any to help fight the bad ones.

 

That doesn't change the fact that the mages have an severe advantage. 

[GavrielKay]

The only person telling us that the RoA will save more people is the insane bigot who's wanted to do it for a long time now.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

The only person telling us that the RoA will save more people is the insane bigot who's wanted to do it for a long time now.

??? 

Anyways I'm done. This debate is the song that never ends. Oh it goes on and on my friends. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mai 2011 - 12:33 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In general that's no big secret.  You need very pure and significant (10s of Kg) quantities of fissile material (U-235, Plutonium, Californium...for true suitcase nukes) and you generally need timers sensitive enough to create a super-critical mass before the nuclear detonation blows away the material before it can properly react (creating a very dirty dud).  This generally requires femto-second timers and rather advanced computing.

These (and the precurser technologies and knowledge) are what intelligence agencies watch like a hawk.  It's also liquid sodium reactors have fallen in severe disfavor for civilian use (since these particular civilian reactors are very easy to convert into military "breeder" reactors for the protduction of plutonium).

-Polaris

And can those materials be used for something other than a bomb? For anything really. 

Not really which is why Anit-Nuclear proliferation efforts have been as successful as they've been.  Fissile material CAN be used for civilian puproses, but simply "enriched" U-235 is sufficient for a Civilian reactor and that enrichment can be vastly less than what is needed for a bomb...and given that Uranium occures in nature and the other materials don't, there isn't any real civilian justification for Plutonium or the more exotic fissionables.  As for femtoa and pico-second timers, the only other use besides this would be for exotic particle research (such as that done by the LHC which is closely run and controlled by the EU)...and for some laser-fusion oriented research.  These uses are very closely monitered.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dwarves don't turn into rampaging beasts that destroy everything around them friend or foe. 

If I had any art talent, it'd be fun to draw concept art for that 

[TEWR]

Ok I gotta ask, since this thread has been derailed more times than it's been led back on track, what is being discussed now?

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok I gotta ask, since this thread has been derailed more times than it's been led back on track, what is being discussed now?

Nuclear science.  No, really

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok I gotta ask, since this thread has been derailed more times than it's been led back on track, what is being discussed now?

Sorry, a comparison was made to mages and nuclear physicists and since I am one.....I got distracted. Back on topic now....

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
See, you get it.  Which is why, while we often disagree, debates with you are fun.

Likewise

The key is, as in yout second sentence, we can choose to make choices with our modern understanding in mind.  Or we can choose to try and play with the undersanding of a person from Hawke's world, who would NOT view this act as genocide, or morally wrong, but would view it as either the right thing to do in this situation or not.

I too personally prefer to play Hawke with the understanding of his world and time. That does not prevent me however to look on his actions from my own perspective and understanding.

But like I said may times before. I don't think calling it a genocide is that significant. I don't know what would change if we declare Rome's destruction of Carthage as a genocide.

 Me, I'm playing a game - I don't care how it's viewed in our world, I care how it's viewed in THAT world.

That's perfectly acceptable. And I lean towards that line of thinking.
But I also enjoy talking about it from a modern perspective, even if it's mostly pointless.

In the world of Thedas, I think you'd agree that there are many legitimate reasons to view the RoA as the right thing to do. 

This specific RoA?
I can buy siding with Meredith out of expedience and to try to make the best out of a horrible situation. But to sincerily and objectively believe that Meredith has the right idea is something I'd find hard to substantiate and not because of the idol.

To put it in other words. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to side with Meredith. But I think there are less reasons to agree with her.  

I don't mind if people think the Chantry is evil, or if they think Circles are evil, or if they think the RoA shouldn't have been used.  I mind when people tell me how I should view the game, what I should use to make my choices in-game, and what morality I should use to view those choices.

I concur.

I'm fine debating the evidence the game gives us to decide whether to invoke the RoA or not.  I dislike being told the RoA is genocide and therefore should never be invoked.

Well I personally kill the Rachni Queen in ME1 and I know it's a genocide. Doesn't stop me from thinking it was the prudent though regretable course of action. But that's just me. 

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok I gotta ask, since this thread has been derailed more times than it's been led back on track, what is being discussed now?

We derailed the threadbecause we've beaten the templars side horse to death. No one is changing their mind so we discussed more interesting things. 

Lik Neuclear weapons. 

[TEWR]

I'm not sure how to react to this new discussion.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

Surprising and interesting. You did not count on him to lead the revolution?

Couldn't an apostate Hawke lead the revolution? Before anyone starts, I fully acknowledge Hawke was reactive, but so were most people in this storyline. I have difficulty blaming Hawke for being reactive when Cullen and Elthina do nothing when they are warned about what Anders did. Aside from how he was written (or at least portrayed), Hawke is acknowledged (by the mysterious Seeker Cassandra) as a hero to the mages.

Some, like Ian, think Anders should be killed for what he did. I'm honestly not sure what would be the better choice - would Anders have knowledge to contribute that would benefit the mages, or would killing him allow Sebastian to have a more mage tolerant Starkhaven if Hawke gets his aid to save the Circle of Kirkwall and helps him gain the throne to the largest city-state in the Free Marches?

Reminds me of the dichotomies faced by The Warden. When I went through my final, canon Warden, I spared the Anvil and Avernus because the choices were beneficial for the cause of stopping the darkspawn, while I killed the Architect because the risk of any intelligent darkspawn threatening humanity would be too great.

Also, I find it odd that people are debating the word 'genocide' when Sebastian uses the word 'holocaust' when speaking to Anders.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

The surviving citizens of the next Redcliffe Village would probably like to have a word with you regarding your humanity.

Freedom isn't free.  I note that a pyschopathic rogue could do as much damage...so we should lock away all people that might be rogues?

-Polaris

A lone psycopath rogue can kill hundreds of highly trained individuals, burn down villages, mind control people to help them in their destruction and raise the dead? Let's not forget summoning demons and corrupting more individuals to do the same.

edit: against their will.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 01:10 .

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Some, like Ian, think Anders should be killed for what he did. I'm honestly not sure what would be the better choice - would Anders have knowledge to contribute that would benefit the mages, or would killing him allow Sebastian to have a more mage tolerant Starkhaven if Hawke gets his aid to save the Circle of Kirkwall and helps him gain the throne to the largest city-state in the Free Marches?

I think the more important question is whether or not Anders will be able to control himself and not make things worse.

Also, I find it odd that people are debating the word 'genocide' when Sebastian uses the word 'holocaust' when speaking to Anders.

And about the Tranquil Solution no less!

Anyway, Anders is a terrorist. The Circles and the RoA can be seen as genocide. If you're not confident enough in your choices that those labels offend you, then maybe you should rethink your choices. The actions don't change based on what people choose to call them.

I won't lose any sleep over siding Templar because someone on an internet forum called it pixel genocide. (But I do roll my eyes at the insistance that this makes me some kind of monster IRL)

[Lewie]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Some, like Ian, think Anders should be killed for what he did. I'm honestly not sure what would be the better choice - would Anders have knowledge to contribute that would benefit the mages, or would killing him allow Sebastian to have a more mage tolerant Starkhaven if Hawke gets his aid to save the Circle of Kirkwall and helps him gain the throne to the largest city-state in the Free Marches?

I think the more important question is whether or not Anders will be able to control himself and not make things worse.

Also, I find it odd that people are debating the word 'genocide' when Sebastian uses the word 'holocaust' when speaking to Anders.

And about the Tranquil Solution no less!

Anyway, Anders is a terrorist. The Circles and the RoA can be seen as genocide. If you're not confident enough in your choices that those labels offend you, then maybe you should rethink your choices. The actions don't change based on what people choose to call them.

I won't lose any sleep over siding Templar because someone on an internet forum called it pixel genocide. (But I do roll my eyes at the insistance that this makes me some kind of monster IRL)

Not to mention that Anders is an abomination, so basically you chat with a demon. Reasoning is a bit obscured if people think they still 'have a chat' with Anders.

[TEWR]

It's a tough call. Justice has split into two different Fade spirit personas: Justice and Vengeance. The two are now deeply intertwined with each other, within Anders no less. Whether Justice will let Anders retain more control of himself is hard to say.

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn,

That's a fair question. Can Anders reconcile the Spirit of Justice that he believes has become an entity of Vengeance now that the Kirkwall Chantry has been destroyed? Justice (or Vengeance, take your pick on names) dominates him when he loses his composure, and he nearly killed a little girl Ella. I'd imagine that Sebastian acknowledging that he sees Anders face in the mages but knows they aren't to blame if he's killed implies that Starkhaven may have a better outcome for the mages with him as the new ruler.

[Lewie]

Anders said himself he was an abomination and it was horrible, he was no longer in control of his body. He was looking out of his eyes and that was it. Then he tells Merril he sees her future if she doesn't wise up. 

Im not even sure that Anders blew up the chantry, it was probably Vengeance. Yet thinking that is even more reason to side with the templars. Demons play the game better than mortals, apparently.

My last playthrough, mage and fight for mage, even the barman in the hanged man said the mages who have escaped have went into the mountains to plot kirkwalls downfall. Another facepalm, railroaded again.