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Siding with the Templars is fine, but siding with Meredith isn`t


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#2301
HogarthHughes 3

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Although it does beg the question, why did Meredith want the Lyrium Idol in the first place? Did the Chantry know what was down there in the primeval thaig? What did Meredith hope to accomplish with it? Who was she "talking" to when she was alone, in her office?


I suppose one could follow the line of thought that lyrium = templar tool.  Although I can't recall exactly what Bartrands servant says about how far gone he was before he sold the idol, I do remember him saying that it got worse once it was gone.  I suspect that it would be fairly obvious that he wasn't right in the head, but perhaps Meredith thought that since she was a templar and strong willed, she could handle it.  Still seems like it was very prideful on her part though, to try to use such an obviously dangerous thing.  Kinda hypocritical given that she rants about protecting mages from their own stupidity.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 13 mai 2011 - 03:50 .


#2302
LobselVith8

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louise101 wrote...

I know you play on peoples feelings about the game, but if you are so content in your choice, why are you trying to change everyone elses mind?


I don't understand the line of thinking you're putting forth. If you have no interest in discussing this issue, why are you posting in a thread that focuses primarily on the dichotomy between siding with Meredith and siding with the mages? Furthermore, why do you pose questions that don't reflect the actual intent people had? You ask repeatedly why someone would side with Anders, but you seem to ignore that the person is actually siding with the mages to protect them against the templars, but you try to change it to an agreement with Anders' destruction of the Chantry. I don't understand the reasoning behind that.

#2303
Lewie

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LobselVith8 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

I know you play on peoples feelings about the game, but if you are so content in your choice, why are you trying to change everyone elses mind?


I don't understand the line of thinking you're putting forth. If you have no interest in discussing this issue, why are you posting in a thread that focuses primarily on the dichotomy between siding with Meredith and siding with the mages? Furthermore, why do you pose questions that don't reflect the actual intent people had? You ask repeatedly why someone would side with Anders, but you seem to ignore that the person is actually siding with the mages to protect them against the templars, but you try to change it to an agreement with Anders' destruction of the Chantry. I don't understand the reasoning behind that.


I thought this was a thread about siding with templars. My mistake.

#2304
LobselVith8

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HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Though the problem was also exacerbated by the Tevinters and the Resolutionists.


Leliana suspects that the Resolutionists are behind the unrest, but we only hear about (and encounter) the group in trying to meet her. Leliana basically ignores the fact that the Knight-Commander has become a dictator, that mages were being made tranquil illegally, and how the living conditions of the Gallows are for the enchanters, mages, and apprentices who have to endure this monstrous environment for the rest of their lives. I get the feeling that Leliana didn't really care all that much if she didn't consider that perhaps the unrest in Kirkwall had to do with the Knight-Commander who was acting as the de facto Viscount and inspiring groups to go against her authority, including her own templars?

#2305
IanPolaris

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Well it's nice to know the Chantry Seekers are such an insightful, *competant* bunch isn't it?

Warms the heart.

-Polaris

#2306
LobselVith8

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louise101 wrote...

I thought this was a thread about siding with templars. My mistake.


You didn't read the OP that said choosing to kill the mages and siding with Meredith was evil?

#2307
Rifneno

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Deztyn wrote...

Amelia, Olivia and Connor are all examples of what can happen when the rules aren't followed.


And it's inevitable that tons of people won't follow the rules when they're so strict and heavy-handed. If loosing the rules causes a 10% increase in Circle mages going abomination and a 200% increase in people following the rules because doing so won't mean they or their child being handed to a brutal dictator, then things are far better on the whole.

Quentin is an example of a Maleficar motivated by things other than ultimate power.

Idunna and Tarohne are examples of mages that are motivated by the desire for ultimate power.


Quentin was one of the exceptions, I agree with that. Idunna and Tarohne we don't know enough about either way to make a judgment. Idunna's motives aren't really explained from what I can remember and Tarohne was long gone by the time Hawke meets her. That's a demon wearing a brand new Edgar suit.

Zathrian and Velenna are examples of mages who have personal motivations and are able to cause massive destruction only because they are mages.

Wilhem and Avernus are examples of mages who screw up with the very best of intentions.

Some of the Mage Underground quests in Origins involved dealing with Apostate maleficar.


Velenna probably could've caused just as much death if she was a highly skilled assassin like Zevran. Zathrian is another exception, true.

Wilhelm was kind of a douche, but I don't know that he was corrupt. Avernus was only bad in that he experimented on unwilling victims. The demon stuff wasn't that bad because he did it in a very controlled environment. Hundreds of years later the demons are *still* trapped. The risk of his summonings hurting a civilian were very low. Just the other Wardens, who weren't going to make it out alive no matter what, and the soldiers of an evil tyrant.

That depends. If another working system replaces the current one, there's no reason to think Tevinter is an outcome. But that assumes that the mundane majority will go along with it. If the Chantry, the governments and the common people are against mage freedom than a bloody war followed by magocracy or the adaption of even stricter methods of mage control are likely.


The response wasn't about in-game knowledge and lore, it was in response your comment that it's naive to think supporting the mages will be proven completely right in the short term because they wrote it so both choices are valid.

Is the tranquil being whipped expressly because something was stolen by someone else or as punishment because something s/he was responsible for went missing?


I don't know the exact quote, sorry. I haven't seen it in-game personally. It was brought up by... I forget whom. But their other scenario I did see in-game (standing at a certain position in the Gallows prologue before getting into the city lets you hear someone being beaten).

The only abominations we encounter in game that don't have huge body counts are the ones that are dealt with immediately. The intelligence of the abomination depends on what kind of demon is possessing it.


Indeed, but demons don't just make others the victim of their psychological element, they are victim to it themselves. Rage demons are constantly enraged, sloth demons are too lazy to do much, ect. So it follows that the most intelligent and dangerous form of demon, pride, would think too highly of itself to tuck tail and run from a conflict if a puny mortal was aggressive towards it.

Siding with the mages you have no reasonable expectation of winning. It's only metagaming that let's you know that you'll survive, that a few mages will successfully escape, and that you'll be able to kill Meredith. You're not trying to beat the Templars here, you know you're fighting a losing battle you're just trying to kick up enough dust to let a few extra mages escape.


I don't know about that. Hawke has accomplished a whole lot. S/he beat the military leader of the entire Qunari in a duel after mowing down his giant warriors like they were random street thugs. S/he got further into the Deep Roads than even the Grey Wardens thought was even possible. Everybody's free to RP their Hawke as they see fit, but I don't really see the logic in any Hawke thinking Meredith is some neigh unbeatable foe.

It's no different than Hawke participating in the Right of Annulment. Or Greigor allowing the Warden to do the same.


Griegor was taking advantage of a legal loophole in the fact that the wardens aren't bound by the same laws he is. Meredith "allowing" Hawke to participate... I don't know, that's probably a no-no too. I'm almost positive it's a no-no for her to tell someone totally outside of the Chantry "you help execute the RoA or I'll kill you too," which she does if you tell her you're not taking sides.

#2308
Rifneno

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louise101 wrote...

The templars didn't take over kirkwall by force, way to dramatise it.


Agreed.  It's not like they executed Viscount Threnhold when he started giving them trouble and proclaimed it was "for the good of all."  ...  Oh no wait, that's exactly what happened.

#2309
HogarthHughes 3

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Rifneno wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The templars didn't take over kirkwall by force, way to dramatise it.


Agreed.  It's not like they executed Viscount Threnhold when he started giving them trouble and proclaimed it was "for the good of all."  ...  Oh no wait, that's exactly what happened.


Viscount Threnhold had the Knight-Commander executed, Meredith led a group of templars to the keep where they captured Threnhold and later put him on trial.  I'm pretty sure it was Grand Cleric Elthina that judged him guilty, and he then died what, 3 months or something like that later in prison?

*edit - Looked up the codex just to be sure.  He died from poisoning 2 years after being imprisoned.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 13 mai 2011 - 04:33 .


#2310
IanPolaris

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HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

louise101 wrote...

The templars didn't take over kirkwall by force, way to dramatise it.


Agreed.  It's not like they executed Viscount Threnhold when he started giving them trouble and proclaimed it was "for the good of all."  ...  Oh no wait, that's exactly what happened.


Viscount Threnhold had the Knight-Commander executed, Meredith led a group of templars to the keep where they captured Threnhold and later put him on trial.  I'm pretty sure it was Grand Cleric Elthina that judged him guilty, and he then died what, 3 months or something like that later in prison?


The templars did nothing until the Viscount wanted to kick them out.  It's not a given that the prior KC was actually murdered or simply killed (there is a difference).  As for the "trial" it was a star-chamber trial from start to finish.  The Templars from that moment on took over Kirkwall for all intents and purposes and they made sure the new Viscount (Dumar) was at least smart enough to know it.

-Polaris

#2311
Deztyn

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IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
1) You're changing the argument again. What the local leaders want doesn't change the fact that the Chantry is in no way restricting the ability to handle mages at the expense of the people. Like you said they were.


King Alistair doesn't agree with you.


King Alistair says that the Chantry isn't doing it's job and there are too many mages running around for the Templars to handle? Or King Alistair doesn't like the way the Chantry does it's job? One of those things is not like the other.

2) Templar specific training has no practical use except to fight mages. I see no reason to think there will be any great number of people who will jump at the chance to get this difficult to learn and mostly useless set of skills. The people who really want to fight mages already become Templars. The people who just want to fight become soldiers, guards or mercenaries.


If mages and abominations aren't common enough for at least some soldiers and guardsmen to learn special techniques to deal with them, then they aren't common enough to justify treating mages like non-people even from a purely pragmatic PoV.  Pick one.


... or it means that the Templars that the Chantry trains are sufficient in a world where the Chantry has Templars everywhere and it's mages properly locked up in accordance with Chantry law. How does your logic work?

And from a purely pragmatic view, it makes more sense to train more templars who will remain loyal to the Chantry and it's duties (or else) than it does to use the same resources to train city guards who can change their minds after awhile and have no incentive to continue working as a guard.

3) The stated purpose of the Templars is to fight magic and demons. I can't see the Divine, a Grand Cleric or any ranking Templar ordering them not to fight Maleficar and demons.


I can see a Divine or Knight Commander using the Templars to take power that isn't supposed to be theirs (see Kirkwall).


Which doesn't change the fact that Templars are around to fight Maleficar and Demons.

4) The common people are Andrastian, that means templars stationed near any population large enough to have any warriors stationed.


The pool of warriors is a lot larger than the pool of Templars.


And how many of them are needed to fight mages when under Chantry law most mages are safely locked up and there are proper templars about?

5) If Fereldan or anywhere else wants to boot the Chantry out of their country, and they're left with no anti-magic warriors as a result that's their own problem.


The Chantry doesn't seem to think so.  If it weren't for the revolt, they'd have already declared an exalted march on Fereldan.  For that matter the Templars DID take over Kirkwall by force when the Viscount wanted to kick the Templars out.

-Polaris


Their problem.

I don't care about the politics.

I wouldn't even necessarily object to the Chantry taking over everywhere officially, as long as they did it well.

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 mai 2011 - 04:53 .


#2312
Deztyn

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IanPolaris wrote...

The templars did nothing until the Viscount wanted to kick them out.


Yeah. Bad Templars!

The previous Knight-Commander even had the audacity to say it was because he thought a templar's duty was to protect the City from magical threats and not get involved with politics. How dare he!?! :lol:

It's not a given that the prior KC was actually murdered or simply killed (there is a difference). 


The Codex says he was hung after Threnhold's mercenary army attacked the Gallows. He was executed.

As for the "trial" it was a star-chamber trial from start to finish.  The Templars from that moment on took over Kirkwall for all intents and purposes and they made sure the new Viscount (Dumar) was at least smart enough to know it.

-Polaris


Well, I guess it's good that the Templars finally got involved with Kirkwall's politics, right? Right? :devil:

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 mai 2011 - 04:57 .


#2313
Silfren

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Dave of Canada wrote...

 Meredith was unofficially in charge of Kirkwall even before the Viscount was slain by the Arishok, almost everybody in Kirkwall keeps talking about how useless the Viscount is. Templar have always had ties to the politics and safety of Kirkwall.

In Act 3, it just becomes obvious because with the Viscount dead and no heir she becomes officially in charge only kept only in check by Elthina who wants to keep the peace. This is also probably what happened when the previous Viscount was removed from power by the templar, she just didn't have the idol.


Elthina kept Meredith in check?  That's an interesting quality of "kept in check."

#2314
LobselVith8

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The Timeline of Thedas says Viscount Threnhold was killed by the templars, but the codex on Knight-Commander Meredith says he was imprisoned. Reminds me of now the codex on Sebastian says he was sent to the Chantry because of his drinking and his womanizing, but chronologically he was sent there as a young boy. Or how Tobrius and Ser Carver knew Malcolm, despite the fact that the Mage Pack says he was operating as a mercenary in Kirkwall.

#2315
GavrielKay

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louise101 wrote...

So you support his cause up until that choice? If what Anders did was wrong, it didn't just 'come about' at the last minute. Anders had changed way before that, so if someone like that was leading a rebellion... you trust it? Blindly?

Thats the responsible choice i take it? :whistle:


And if Meredith is leading the RoA we have just as much reason to be suspicious.  Meredith is just as neutral and in control of herself at that point as Anders is.  She's the only one who says the RoA is necessary.  Meredith wanted to kill all the mages long before the end sequence but was prevented by Elthina.  Meredith had no interest at all in thinking up alternatives to the RoA, she'd already given up on the mages long before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My Hawke never believed Meredith even before we find out she's influenced by the idol.  If Meredith had been honestly interested in protecting Kirkwall, she'd have kept a tighter leash on her Templars and kept them from driving the mages to extremity.

#2316
LobselVith8

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Deztyn wrote...

The Codex says he was hung after Threshold's mercenary army attacked the Gallows. He was executed.


Isn't the codex written by Brother Genitivi, who excuses the templar power play in Kirkwall as one of them being forced to assume control and is the siurce behind the claim that the previous Knight-Commander did not want power? The same author who said humans were the masters of Thedas in the entry about the New Exalted Marches, which sounds odd considering Thedas has people who aren't human living in Thedas. I'm not certain Genitivi is an unbiased source of information.

#2317
KnightofPhoenix

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Deztyn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The templars did nothing until the Viscount wanted to kick them out.


Yeah. Bad Templars!

The previous Knight-Commander even had the audacity to say it was because he thought a templar's duty was to protect the City from magical threats and not get involved with politics. How dare he!?! :lol:


The Viscount probably thought, and with very good reason, that the Chantry is merely an extension of Orlesian imperial influence (see Ferelden in Stolen Throne), or at the very least an ally.  And Kirkwall being weak cannot afford to have a foreign armed branch within its walls. 

He may not have been the most prudent man, but I respect his desire to establish real and total independence for Kirkwall.  That said, I understand the Templars fighting back. What I don't understand is the Chantry thinking that Meredith is adequate enough to deal with such a delicate situation. But seeing what the Divine was thinking, delicacy and prudence do not seem to be in fashion in Chantry minds.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 mai 2011 - 05:45 .


#2318
Deztyn

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Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Amelia, Olivia and Connor are all examples of what can happen when the rules aren't followed.


And it's inevitable that tons of people won't follow the rules when they're so strict and heavy-handed. If loosing the rules causes a 10% increase in Circle mages going abomination and a 200% increase in people following the rules because doing so won't mean they or their child being handed to a brutal dictator, then things are far better on the whole.


But that depends on how much trouble those 10% cause, doesn't it?

Quentin was one of the exceptions, I agree with that. Idunna and Tarohne we don't know enough about either way to make a judgment. Idunna's motives aren't really explained from what I can remember and Tarohne was long gone by the time Hawke meets her. That's a demon wearing a brand new Edgar suit.


Tarohne wanted New Tevinter Imperium, it's in the codex.

The response wasn't about in-game knowledge and lore, it was in response your comment that it's naive to think supporting the mages will be proven completely right in the short term because they wrote it so both choices are valid.


My own view is 'anything can happen from here.' Nothing wrong with speculating about the Free Mage Utopia or the New Tevinter Imperium, I have my own preferences. But I think neither side is going to be proven completely right, especially in the immediate future so taking the hardline of 'this is what is going to happen in Thedas tomorrow' is destined for disappointment.

Indeed, but demons don't just make others the victim of their psychological element, they are victim to it themselves. Rage demons are constantly enraged, sloth demons are too lazy to do much, ect. So it follows that the most intelligent and dangerous form of demon, pride, would think too highly of itself to tuck tail and run from a conflict if a puny mortal was aggressive towards it.


Desire demons are nearly as powerful as Pride demons and they will make deals and run when cornered, we've seen that more than once in game.

Siding with the mages you have no reasonable expectation of winning. It's only metagaming that let's you know that you'll survive, that a few mages will successfully escape, and that you'll be able to kill Meredith. You're not trying to beat the Templars here, you know you're fighting a losing battle you're just trying to kick up enough dust to let a few extra mages escape.

I don't know about that. Hawke has accomplished a whole lot. S/he beat the military leader of the entire Qunari in a duel after mowing down his giant warriors like they were random street thugs. S/he got further into the Deep Roads than even the Grey Wardens thought was even possible. Everybody's free to RP their Hawke as they see fit, but I don't really see the logic in any Hawke thinking Meredith is some neigh unbeatable foe.


Hawke would have to believe that she could take on an entire army and
win, while being locked in a prison tower on an island. Game mechanics let us kill
everything that steps in front of us, but from an RP perspective, I
can't imagine a Hawke who would believe that she could literally take on
an entire army and win. Not just survive and escape. Actually win.

It's no different than Hawke participating in the Right of Annulment. Or Greigor allowing the Warden to do the same.


Griegor was taking advantage of a legal loophole in the fact that the wardens aren't bound by the same laws he is. Meredith "allowing" Hawke to participate... I don't know, that's probably a no-no too.


We have two examples of RoAs, both allow others to participate with permission from the Knight-Commander involved, I don't think it's fair to say that both examples are wrong.

I'm almost positive it's a no-no for her to tell someone totally outside of the Chantry "you help execute the RoA or I'll kill you too," which she does if you tell her you're not taking sides.


It's certainly suspect!

#2319
Dave of Canada

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Silfren wrote...

Elthina kept Meredith in check?  That's an interesting quality of "kept in check."


She had to remain neutral, she couldn't show favor to either side. She stopped Meredith at every turn and tried to calm down the mages from inciting open rebellion, enough so that Orsino trusted her judgement enough to storm out of the Gallows (against the law) with other mages to tell Elthina in hopes that she'd tell Meredith to back off the search of the Gallows for Blood magic.

... unless you expected her to do something else?

#2320
KnightofPhoenix

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Dave of Canada wrote...
... unless you expected her to do something else?


Ask (demand) for the retirement of the Knight-commander who managed to ****** the populace off who for the first time in Andrastrian Thedasian history sympathized with mages and helped them, who also pissed off the nobility because of her unnecessary power grap and usurpation, and who of course pissed off the guards by trying to oust their beloved captain for no good reason. And appoint someone more competent in her place.

She can't do it? Bring in the Seekers, that's their job.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 mai 2011 - 05:54 .


#2321
Silfren

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Deztyn wrote...

A perfect solution is never reachable, but I think something more is required than, "Chantry= Evil, tear it down!". At least for me to take a person's opinion on the matter seriously.


Some of us do think of the Chantry as evil.  Or perhaps plain ol' "corrupt" is a better term.  There's too many obvious parallels between the Chantry and the historical RCC for me to see the Chantry as a primarily benign organization.  It isn't solely about its heavy-handed approach to mages either.

All the good it does won't nullify Exalted Marches, mage oppression, or its maltreatment of elves, or the psychologically damaging effects of bull**** doctrine that leads to people like Sebastian suggesting that the Maker allows for evil in order to make a point*.  I believe there's some dialogue with an NPC somewhere that indicates the Chantry isn't doing so much to help with widows and orphans, despite much vaunted claims of its beneficience toward same?  Nope.  A stopped clock is right twice a day, but that doesn't excuse or justify the rest of the time.




*Party banter with Fenris: The ex-slave refers to a case of a Magister sacrificing a child and Sebastian suggests that maybe the Maker allowed it to happen so that someone would recognize the evil.

#2322
Dave of Canada

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She can't do it? Bring in the Seekers, that's their job.


I don't recall, is Leliana a Seeker at that point in time?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 05:56 .


#2323
KnightofPhoenix

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Dave of Canada wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She can't do it? Bring in the Seekers, that's their job.


I don't recall, is Leliana a Seeker at that point in time?


I don't know. I'd think she became a Seeker between Act 2 and 3, possibly before. Some theorize that she was always a Seeker.

#2324
Silfren

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Sylvianus wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...

Siding with the Templars gives you more of an opportunity to save lives than siding with the mages. Also, a good justification is that the Templar order is one of the arms of the law in KIrkwall. A good example is of your Hawke feeling that he/she needs to keep order is if you meet Warden Bethany and she berates you for siding with the Templars, you tell her you only want to keep order - and save as many civilian lives as possible. She agrees and sides with you. Then, when you are battling the mages, you can opt to argue sparing those who surrender (Cullen sides with you and the mages are spared).

There really is no 'good' or 'evil' choice for this - as far as the choices themselves go. Both leaders are a bit off (Orsino using blood magic; Meredith already possessed). I've done both endings, and frankly, I like the templar siding better only in that I feel like I've saved more lives - civilian, mage, templar - in that choice than in siding with the mages. Which also puts my Hawke on the other side of the law.

Course, it really depends on how you roleplayed throughout the game as well. [b]For some Hawkes, siding with the Templars makes absolute sense, and for others, none at all
.

The voice of reason has spoken. Posted Image

Also like Merela, Ryzaky and everyone said,   If you are worried about the Kirkwall's people, it is the templar we decided to join.

Meredith is mad or not, this is not her decision that is followed, it is ours in a situation that doesn't give us the choice, in a radical situation that calls for blood.

Meredith is eliminated, the threat is contained, Kirkwall see all extremists eliminated. The calm may come back and order restored.

Yes there certainly were many victims, but innocent people were already involved from the chantry's blow. What matter was  the final resolution of the conflict, in one way or another.


How many of Kirkwall's populace had mage relatives in the Gallows?  I notice this hasn't even been touched upon.  We already know that a lot of Kirkwall citizens were sympathetic to the mages.  Do we have their opinions?  How many of them had decided that the Chantry had gone too far and was in dire need of change?  How many of these people had children, siblings, or lovers taken prisoner?  How many saw their loved ones made Tranquil without due cause?  How many of these people were bloody well sick of the Chantry and its templars and reacted to the explosion of the Chantry and the subsequent mage revolt as "about damn time.  Where do I join up?"

I assure you, people who felt that way exist.  The only "face" of the general population that's been mentioned is that of people who would react to the Chantry explosion with increased fear and hate of mages and conclude that their imprisonment is justified, but no populace is ever that unified, no matter how much effort is made to make the other viewpoints invisible.  There's always going to be a population of some size that fully sympathises with the revolutionaries, no matter what extremes they go to. 

#2325
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She can't do it? Bring in the Seekers, that's their job.


I don't recall, is Leliana a Seeker at that point in time?


I don't know. I'd think she became a Seeker between Act 2 and 3, possibly before. Some theorize that she was always a Seeker.



Would explain why she had a necklace called Seeker's Circle. 

/conspiracy theories abound. :wizard: