4350 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Excuse me, David, but only some Circles of Magi permit marriage, we know a powerful Arl was allowed to see his son in one of the most liberal of the fourteen Circles of Magi, and we know the living conditions of the Chantry controlled Circles were a dictatorship according to WoG Michael Hamilton. I'm not sure you can equate a dictatorship with a boarding school.

[TEWR]

where was it that I saw a few comments concerning Malcolm Hawke's history and whether he was a Circle mage? Was that here? If so, Bethany says in banter with Anders that Malcolm was a Circle mage.

The fact that a circle mage could live a normal life, albeit always on the move until Lothering, is testament that not all mages need be corralled like sheep and feared that one of them is really a wolf.

Mages being free doesn't mean that they'll seek to govern the world. not if the world kept the law saying that Mages cannot be involved with politics and kept the Templars.

It's pretty much (and God how I hate using this word because I've seen it used so many times improperly that the meaning feels lost) racist. Well... racial discrimination as per the UN's definition of it:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I think the comments focused on the Chantry sending templars into the Dales to force conversion (according to the Dalish)

The Dalish believe many things that society does not, for example about how the Dales made the first move in attacking. Who's right? We don't know.

But you already know that something went wrong. A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales.

--"The Rise and Fall of the Dales," as told by Sarethia, hahren of the Highever alienage

and how they forced elves into ghettos

Reading the codex, it says nothing about how the Chantry was the one responsible for putting them in the Alienages. All it mentions is that the Divine declared all Chantry cities to give shelter to the now (homeless) elves.

They also aren't forced in the Alienages, they are allowed to buy houses around towns but are forced back to the Alienage when more fantasy racism shines and their homes are burned or something.

made their religion illegal, and forced them to convert to their religion.

They were given a choice, come into the Chantry's cities and convert or refuse it. They weren't going to be killed for refusing, they didn't have their hand twisted. Those who refused became the Dalish, those who accepted became the City Elves.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 07:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Excuse me, David, but only some Circles of Magi permit marriage

Can't find anything about it being limited.

we know a powerful Arl was allowed to see his son

Finn and his parents.

in one of the most liberal of the fourteen Circles of Magi

We know the state of every other Circle?

and we know the living conditions of the Chantry controlled Circles were a dictatorship according to WoG Michael Hamilton.

Link to said quote?

[Silfren]

louise101 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Just because Anders is possessed by a demon (and even calling justice a demon is a matter of some dispute) does NOT make Anders wrong.

-Polaris

I trusted Justice, all the way, was no demon until Anders got him. I don't trust what happened to him and what he became. Anders admits all this. Its all GONE WRONG. 

'Mens hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature'.

I can't even imagine what happened to Justice, simply that he was poisoned by Anders own horrors. Will i run behind him for freedom? No.

There's some indication that it was Justice's idea for he and Anders to merge.  And whose to say that it wasn't Anders who was poisoned by Justice?  I'm just sayin'.

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider said only some Circles of Magi permit relationships, and others permit marriage if the mages obtain permission, David of Canada. He said it in the same post where he explained that it was possible for them to get married in the first place.

We know Finn is allowed to communicate with his family in the most liberal of the fourteen Circles (and it was said to be the most liberal out of all of them), and we see Ella trying to leave the Gallows simply to let her mother know she's still alive. Clearly, not every Circle is similar to the one in Ferelden.

I linked the quote about Michael Hamilton calling the Chantry controlled Circles dictatorships when he explained why the Magi boon did not happen in the second to last thread I made.

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...
And whose to say that it wasn't Anders who was poisoned by Justice?  I'm just sayin'.

A lot of reasons? I'll take the simplest one: Even Anders says so?

[LobselVith8]

Regarding the elves, I admit it's contested, but out of the two, the Dales doesn't have a history of conquest like Orlais does. And the claim by the Dalish of templars being sent to force conversion is followed by the city elves being forced to convert and their religion made illegal when the Chantry won the war.

The Alienage is where the city elves are forced to live because of the social conditions of the Andrastian nations, where the Cantices of Shartan were removed to justify an Exalted March against the homeland given to the elves by Andraste's children. If the Chantry is responsible for provoking the Dalish by sending armed troops into their land to force conversion, then they are responsible for the plight of the city elves, and we know that the Chantry has no problem supporting invasions from the occupation of Ferelden.

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

All the good it does won't nullify Exalted Marches

Depends who you ask.

I doubt many people doesn't give a damn about the Exalted Marches, maybe they'd view them in a positive light. You have to consider, the Exalted Marches against Tevinter and the Qunari are probably worshipped by society as being the best thing ever.

mage oppression

Once again, depends who you ask. The average person or people from non-Chantry countries are probably likely to praise it's control of the mages. The only people who seem to be arguing against mage oppression are the mages themselves and a few other normal people.

or its maltreatment of elves

Chantry doesn't mistreat elves, the people do. It's fantasy racism (xenophobia?), you don't see priests going around telling people to spit on elves because it's funny.

or the psychologically damaging effects of bull**** doctrine that leads to people like Sebastian suggesting that the Maker allows for evil in order to make a point*.

Fanaticism exists for everything, doesn't mean it's evil / corrupt.

I believe there's some dialogue with an NPC somewhere that indicates the Chantry isn't doing so much to help with widows and orphans

Except Origins and Dragon Age 2 have shown that it does, even the Orzammar Chantry in it's brief existence (if you create it) can help a dwarf and an orphan.

Nope.  A stopped clock is right twice a day, but that doesn't excuse or justify the rest of the time.

Your anti-religion bias is showing.

No, my anti-organized religio-political bodies bias is showing, and since I was apparently unclear, that post referred to MY opinion of the Chantry, from a meta-gaming aspect.  (And two of my Hawkes as well).  And you do realize that the discrimination faced by the alienage elves is directly caused by the Chantry, right?

[Deztyn]

Silfren wrote...

All the good it does won't nullify Exalted Marches,

Against the Qunari? Against Tevinter? Arguably against the Dales depending on which history you believe?

(Admittedly against Kirkwall would have been stupid.)

An Exalted March is just a fancy way of saying 'war', if you have a problem with that than every country in the world is guilty and should be brought down.

mage oppression

Arguably necessary.

, or its maltreatment of elves,

Society as a whole, not the Chantry.

or the psychologically damaging effects of bull**** doctrine that leads to people like Sebastian suggesting that the Maker allows for evil in order to make a point

To give Fenris the will to leave Danarius and make sure it never happens to anyone ever again. He also believes that in death the boy will be at the Maker's side. He believes that there's a greater plan behind everything that only the Maker can see and that in the end everything fits together in a better greater whole. In Thedas, he may even be right. I wouldn't call that psychologically damaging, just the opposite, if there's one thing faith is good for it's giving people a sense that their lives have real purpose, that nothing is random. And the suffering of innocents in some way contributes to the greater good, and the sins of others will be punished in the next life if not this one. Many find it comforting.

I believe there's some dialogue with an NPC somewhere that indicates the Chantry isn't doing so much to help with widows and orphans, despite much vaunted claims of its beneficience toward same?

There's also dialogue from sisters in the Chantry worrying about the fate of orphans who didn't want to live there.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Dave of Canada wrote...

and how they forced elves into ghettos

Reading the codex, it says nothing about how the Chantry was the one responsible for putting them in the Alienages. All it mentions is that the Divine declared all Chantry cities to give shelter to the now (homeless) elves.

They also aren't forced in the Alienages, they are allowed to buy houses around towns but are forced back to the Alienage when more fantasy racism shines and their homes are burned or something.

made their religion illegal, and forced them to convert to their religion.

They were given a choice, come into the Chantry's cities and convert or refuse it. They weren't going to be killed for refusing, they didn't have their hand twisted. Those who refused became the Dalish, those who accepted became the City Elves.

How kind and generous of the Chantry, to give them shelter after destroying their homes!  And what a terrific choice, between living in a ghetto or joining the nomads.  The only reason the Dalish are even permitted to run around is because they're not powerful enough to pose a threat, but would take some effort to exterminate.  Heaven(Maker?) forbid the heathens be allowed have a permanent home.  


The war against the Dalish was led by the Chantry.  Their kindness after the war was over was about as compassionate as American settlers eventually relegating Native Americans to reservations.  Oh sure, we just took your homes and stomped all over your culture, but you can have the land we don't want!

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 13 mai 2011 - 07:55 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, imprudent and unwise. Though I sympathise.
He didn't have that many options. Allying with Nevarra would be exchanging, in his mind, one foreign invader with another (except Nevarrans are Free Marchers. They need a Bismarck to make them embrace nationalism).

However at the end of the day, "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

I would like to imagine my Viscount Hawke would marry Sebastian uniting at least Starkhaven and Kirkwall, but even in my imagination Hawke isn't allowed to be that intelligent and proactive.

Studied too much political science and history to ever think that any one party can get all the blame, or even most of it.

But as a neo-classical realist, I prefer to look at systemic causes first, specific events / individuals second.

... my brain went to art first, and for a split second I imagined Xanatos sculpting marble gargoyle figures.

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 mai 2011 - 07:45 .

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...
And whose to say that it wasn't Anders who was poisoned by Justice?  I'm just sayin'.

A lot of reasons? I'll take the simplest one: Even Anders says so?

Anders also, immediately after telling you "he is no longer my friend Justice, he is a force of vengeance and he knows nothing of mercy," also explicitly denies that Justice is a demon.  At various points, Anders vacillates between admitting that Justice has been warped, and saying "he isn't a force of malevolence as you seem to think."  He also goes back and forth between saying that he and Justice are one and the same now, and referring to Justice as a separate entity who just happens to be occupying the same head-space.

I think the only clear-cut conclusion we can draw from all that is that Anders doesn't understand what happened anymore than Hawke or the rest of us do.  Poor boy's confused as hell.

Also, can't seem to link to the story for some reason, but the Anders short story, iirc, suggests that Justice first broached the idea.  I may not be right on that, but it's what I recall.  Then again, we could blame Nathaniel for putting the notion in Justice's head in the first place.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider said only some Circles of Magi permit relationships, and others permit marriage if the mages obtain permission, David of Canada.

David Gaider wrote...
Mages within the Circle are permitted to marry, but it's impractical with outsiders and they also must get permission from the Chantry (so it might be considered a reward for good behavior). Even so, the culture within the typical Circle of Magi tends to make mages unwilling to marry. The policy on fraternization will depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not, though in either case it still occurs. Considering mages live outside normal culture, they also consider themselves free of cultural conventions (especially those who were raised in a Circle from a young age) and thus tend to be quite liberal in their views.

While it doesn't describe every detail, it doesn't seem like the Circle of Magi restrict relationships in general and marriage can be found in the Circles. How many? I don't know, though the post doesn't seem to imply a majority either way, so we could say around 50% of Circles do allow it.

The interesting thing for me is that they are allowed to marry outsiders.

We know Finn is allowed to communicate with his family in the most liberal of the fourteen Circles (and it was said to be the most liberal out of all of them)

We don't know how the other Circles operate, better or worse. I'll concede this point as we don't have enough information either way.

and we see Ella trying to leave the Gallows simply to let her mother know she's still alive. Clearly, not every Circle is similar to the one in Ferelden.

If Ferelden is the most liberal of the Circles, I'd say that Kirkwall's Circle is probably the worst case scenario for a Circle. The Mages from Starkhaven's Circle for example absolutely hated it compared to the Starkhaven Circle (though, to be fair we don't know how they operated either ).

I linked the quote about Michael Hamilton calling the Chantry controlled Circles dictatorships when he explained why the Magi boon did not happen in the second to last thread I made.

Having looked it up (and Mark Hamilton as his name didn't ring a bell), I didn't think a programmer was considered word of god.

[Silfren]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...
The terror-loving terrorist humper of the group would be me.

I was being sarcastic, but I'll go ahead and lay it out there:  I found what Anders did to be horrific but necessary.  I don't have one iota of sympathy for the Grand Cleric or any templars who were in the Chantry with her.  I don't consider her death to be murder, and I think there's sufficient evidence to call what Anders did not an act of terrorism but the opening salvo in a declaration of war.  (I'm also aware that there could be pages upon pages upon pages written in debate over whether acts of terrorism or acts of war are mutually exclusive--enough at least to add another thirty pages to this thread.  But we already had several pages of debate over terminology once already).

Also, regards another point made by someone else.  I'm well aware that "Exalted March" is a euphemism for war.  So is "holy crusade," which is what Exalted Marches are meant to parallel.  I do not, however, find war itself to be inherently evil.  War is never pretty, it is never civilized, innocents always die, and not exclusively at the hands of the "Bad Guys."  But sometimes it's still necessary.  But several of the Exalted Marches of the Chantry were not exactly what I'd consider to be morally defensible.  And I'm always dubious of any euphemistic ploy that tries to suggest a war is the will of any god.

I've been called a supporter of bin Laden and jihad so many times as a result of my being able to fully sympathize with a fictional character that you could say I finally just snapped and embraced the label.  I'm totally a terror-loving terrorist of terror and I want to screw terrorist Anders and have little terrorist babies with him. 

Edited: To fix some stoopid grammar and spelling because I'm obsessive like that.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 mai 2011 - 07:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

 and I think there's sufficient evidence to call what Anders did not an act of terrorism but the opening salvo in an declaration of war.

ter·ror·ism
1. The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 08:20 .

[LobselVith8]

So that means the Chantry is a terrorist organization, Dave of Canada?

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Regarding the elves, I admit it's contested, but out of the two, the Dales doesn't have a history of conquest like Orlais does.

Though it does have it's history that did lead to the fall, conquest or no. The elves watched and remained neutral while the Second Blight was devastating Orlais which lead to hostilites for both sides.

If you believe the Orlesian side of the tale, the Exalted March was only called upon when the town of Red Crossing was raided by the elves which forced the Chantry to respond.

And the claim by the Dalish of templars being sent to force conversion is followed by the city elves being forced to convert and their religion made illegal when the Chantry won the war.

They were offered to convert (once again, depending on who you believe. Dalish or Chantry.) though, even the Dalish themselves view the brethren who accepted as pathetic for doing so (which would seem less likely if those who converted would've been killed otherwise). It wasn't a convert or die scenario.

The Alienage is where the city elves are forced to live because of the social conditions of the Andrastian nations

They aren't forced to live there, though. Elves are allowed to purchase land outside of the Alienage.

If the Chantry is responsible for provoking the Dalish by sending armed troops into their land to force conversion, then they are responsible for the plight of the city elves,

And if the Dalish were the ones that attacked Red Crossing first, they were the ones responsible for losing the Dales.

and we know that the Chantry has no problem supporting invasions from the occupation of Ferelden.

Of course, though we also know they support defending their people. (The last few Exalted Marches)

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So that means the Chantry is a terrorist organization, Dave of Canada?

I have no qualms with the word terrorism, it's simply a method / tactic of achieving one's goals. So I guess? /shrug

Just don't like it when people are trying to pretend Anders isn't a terrorist.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 08:27 .

[OldMan91]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So that means the Chantry is a terrorist organization, Dave of Canada?

I have no qualms with the word terrorism, it's simply a method / tactic of achieving one's goals. So I guess? /shrug

Just don't like it when people are trying to pretend Anders isn't a terrorist.

Sure, if you don't mind the peace time equivalent of a war crime.

[Dave of Canada]

OldMan91 wrote...

Sure, if you don't mind the peace time equivalent of a war crime.

Depends what side you're on and how it ends. Some historical figures revered as heroes have used terrorist tactics, others are known as horrible villains.

Edit: If the Templar win the war for example, Anders might be the worst villain to ever exist on Thedas for quite a while. If the Mages win, he'll be revered as a hero and praised. Either way, he's used terrorism to achieve his goal.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 08:35 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

 and I think there's sufficient evidence to call what Anders did not an act of terrorism but the opening salvo in an declaration of war.

ter·ror·ism
1. The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims

That pretty much makes the U.S, Germany, Britain, etc. terrorists doesn't it? Since countries that declare war are using violence for political reasons. Or am I wrong (I'm actually really curious as to if that is the case. I'm not disputing the definition of terrorism.)

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

 and I think there's sufficient evidence to call what Anders did not an act of terrorism but the opening salvo in an declaration of war.

ter·ror·ism
1. The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims

That pretty much makes the U.S, Germany, Britain, etc. terrorists doesn't it? Since countries that declare war are using violence for political reasons. Or am I wrong (I'm actually really curious as to if that is the case. I'm not disputing the definition of terrorism.)

Dave,

I don't dispute that Anders is a terrorist.  We disagree on almost everything else but not that.  However, I think your definition is way too broad because it includes things that reasonable people don't consider terrorism.

For example, if the People's Republic of China used overt military exercises in the straights of Taiwan to influence elections in Taiwan (which btw they do with boring regularity) I think most people would consider this to be boorish international behavior at best, but it's NOT terrorism....but your definition would label it so.

Likewise any nation that ever went to war for any reason would automatically be considered a "terrorist" nation?

No.  Not buying it.

You need to refine and narrow that definition into something useful.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That pretty much makes the U.S, Germany, Britain, etc. terrorists doesn't it? Since countries that declare war are using violence for political reasons. Or am I wrong (I'm actually really curious as to if that is the case. I'm not disputing the definition of terrorism.)

Technically, it depends where you're from. I used a simplistic term because the person seems to have ignored a previous discussion with a more defined definition.

Everywhere in the world have different definitions for terrorism, though it's basically to inspire fear among the people to achieve a goal. Somebody blowing up a building because it's funny isn't a terrorist (more of a psycopath), though the same man who does it to show people... well, I can't think of an example (5AM) so I'll just continue with Anders:

Anders blows up the Chantry to make everybody "pick a side", to show everybody that there can't be peace. By blowing up the Chantry, he made his goal clear and now everybody is afraid and news of it will likely spread throughout Thedas / the Chantry-ruled countries. He could've picked more valuable targets, maybe killing the Knight-Commander or something... though that wouldn't have had the political effect he (probably) wanted.

I won't name any specific real world examples to start a debate about it, though. 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 09:03 .

[HSHAW]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Link to said quote?

http://social.biowar...9543/37#5985978