4350 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz, you seem to be ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, even the fact that The Warden can instruct Anders on using blood magic, which is even confirmed in dialogue between the two characters.

Demons are not necessary to learn blood magic. And I don't see why you think Anders was being sarcastic with Merrill when he's pretty serious in most of his conversations, even when she's jesting with him about Ser Pounce-A-Lot being knighted.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And Polaris, you don't think that if the fact that mages are udner constant threat, that the mages THEMSELVES would teach eachother differently? THey have taught eachother for more than 1000 years that they are udner constant threat, and now you claim they have been lying all the time. I'm sorry, but that is highly unlikely. I'm just gonna stick with what the codex says, and leave your speculation in the gutter, until it can be proven.
On another note, just because you don't like an analogy does not make it bad. Magic is a too. A tool that can enver be put away, which is always drawn, and which is always on. They will always pose a threat to everyone around them.

Not really.  The Tevinter mages DO seem to have had success in this department.  After all it's hard to reconcile a powerful Thedas wide empire run by mages if one mage in five when "abomination crazy" at any given time which is roughly what the chantry wants you to believe.

Mages are only permitted to learn and teach what the Templars allow and the Templars/Chantry forbid any research into actual demon possession.

In short, the Chantry system doesn't work, and a fairly decent empirical case can be made that it has quite likely made the abomination problem WORSE.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What? He didn't invalidate. He brought additional data. The analogy adapts.
To make it easier for you: Does a mage fear walking amongst mages? No. Does an armed man fear walking amongst armed men? No. Does unarmed men fear an armed man walking amongst them (an obviously armed)? Yes. Does unarmed men fear a mage walking amongst them? Yes. Do they have a reason to? Yes.

I didn't.  I knew or knew of most of the people in question, and people there carried guns openly for a reason (Bear and Moose are common and are real dangers).  I wasn't armed because I was going from one place on base to another and firearms are generally prohibited on base.

The point is that an unarmed man does not automatically become fearful around armed people.  Circumstances matter and matter a great deal.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...



Mother Hannah, the woman at the Redcliffe's Chantry who refuses to give lie to Ser Gurvan and his knights  that the maker is with them. A woman of pure goodness.

Except that she can be persuaded to lie, and in each and every one of my playthroughs, she does.  "Pure goodness?"  Please.  Even generally decent people are never pure.  Let's not start pretending that being a morally good person means that the sun shines out your ass.

Sylvianus wrote...

That doesn't change the fact that I consider the organization he belongs to to be corrupt in irredeemable ways

And Silfiren. It's funny because it  is exactly what pro-templar thought  about the circle or Kirkwall became corrupt.

Not the same thing.  Not the same thing in the slightest.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 mai 2011 - 09:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz, you seem to be ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, even the fact that The Warden can instruct Anders on using blood magic, which is even confirmed in dialogue between the two characters.

Demons are not necessary to learn blood magic. And I don't see why you think Anders was being sarcastic with Merrill when he's pretty serious in most of his conversations, even when she's jesting with him about Ser Pounce-A-Lot being knighted.

The Commander can instruct Anders to learn blood magic. You don't know how he learned it.

Demons are neccesary. And Anders are still sarcastic in alot of his conversations. So I see no reason for him not to be in this (voice tone aside and all).

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How many times are you going to ignore that Jowan learned blood magic through books, the Orlesian Warden learned blood magic through a book, Finn performed a ritual he read about that was blood magic, Morrigan perfumed a ritual that was taught to her that was blood magic, and Anders even asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident? I'm curious, EmperorSahlertz, because you keep professing the only way to learn blood magic is through demons, when we know this isn't true.

How many times are you ging to have to be told. No. Spoone fed, that we don't know what Jiwan read about. The Spec books are gameplay, purely gameplay. The Finn's ritual ISN'T Blood magic, but could be viewed as such. Ditto with Morrigan's ritual, and even if it were, she could have made a deal with a demon. And that Anders was clearly being sarcastic, and that Anders himself states that you need to make a deal with a demon to learn blood magic? Cause it is really getting tiresome.

The spec books aren't "purely" gameplay, considering that it isn't just through reading books that you unlock specializations.  Not all gameplay need be separated from lore-play, either. 

Morrigan explicitly states in one situation that she knows better than to make a deal with a demon, and reinforces that stance in various other dialogues, so there's no real reason to believe she did any such thing. 

We have no reason to believe that Anders is always correct in everything he says.  Just because he thinks that blood magic is learned solely through demons doesn't make him right.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 mai 2011 - 09:29 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you mean Emperor, would I mind walking down the streets full of people with weapons openly carried, the answer is NO. In fact in Alaska I've done and seen it (not on the military base where I was but in the neighboring town).

An openly armed society is a polite one I've found. Low burglery rates too.....

-Polaris

Im guessing you were armed too, and even then, I doubt you all went about with your weapons drawn, lock'n'loaded, mages do that.
If "everyone" is armed, the playing field is even. However, everyone can't be mages.

Nice.  Someone invalidated your analogy by telling you what you didn't expect to read, and so now you're having to change in order to maintain its relevance.

What? He didn't invalidate. He brought additional data. The analogy adapts.
To make it easier for you: Does a mage fear walking amongst mages? No. Does an armed man fear walking amongst armed men? No. Does unarmed men fear an armed man walking amongst them (an obviously armed)? Yes. Does unarmed men fear a mage walking amongst them? Yes. Do they have a reason to? Yes.

Every human being is dangerous. In this instance is that some humans are simply born with bigger guns.

[Sylvianus]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

Mother Hannah, the woman at the Redcliffe's Chantry who refuses to lie to Ser Guvan and his knights that the maker is with them. A woman of pure goodness. [/quote]

[quote]Actually, The Warden can convince her to lie to the knights, and that's precisely what I did to boost morale among the Andrastian Knights. [/quote]

Indeed we van convince her, but then we must have a lot of points to convince her, I had failed the first time

[quote]Furthermore, the very institution of the Chantry made it necessary for Mother Hannah to assure an Amell Warden that he won't be in danger for being a mage in Redcliffe (the Surana Warden gets the elven dialogue instead of the mage dialogue) since Wynne notes in another conversation that Andrastians have killed mages simply for being mages.[/quote]
 I didn't know.  I recognize i havenever played a mage in dao. : s
I've tried, but I never hooked.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And Polaris, you don't think that if the fact that mages are udner constant threat, that the mages THEMSELVES would teach eachother differently? THey have taught eachother for more than 1000 years that they are udner constant threat, and now you claim they have been lying all the time. I'm sorry, but that is highly unlikely. I'm just gonna stick with what the codex says, and leave your speculation in the gutter, until it can be proven.
On another note, just because you don't like an analogy does not make it bad. Magic is a too. A tool that can enver be put away, which is always drawn, and which is always on. They will always pose a threat to everyone around them.

Not really.  The Tevinter mages DO seem to have had success in this department.  After all it's hard to reconcile a powerful Thedas wide empire run by mages if one mage in five when "abomination crazy" at any given time which is roughly what the chantry wants you to believe.

Mages are only permitted to learn and teach what the Templars allow and the Templars/Chantry forbid any research into actual demon possession.

In short, the Chantry system doesn't work, and a fairly decent empirical case can be made that it has quite likely made the abomination problem WORSE.

-Polaris

The Chantry teaches that Abominations are rare. It is their potential for destruction which are to be feared.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz, you seem to be ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, even the fact that The Warden can instruct Anders on using blood magic, which is even confirmed in dialogue between the two characters.

Demons are not necessary to learn blood magic. And I don't see why you think Anders was being sarcastic with Merrill when he's pretty serious in most of his conversations, even when she's jesting with him about Ser Pounce-A-Lot being knighted.

The Commander can instruct Anders to learn blood magic. You don't know how he learned it.

Demons are neccesary. And Anders are still sarcastic in alot of his conversations. So I see no reason for him not to be in this (voice tone aside and all).

*sigh*  You know the truth about how to learn bloodmagic regardless of what the facts may be, I see.  There are MANY canonical sources that outright state that demons are NOT required to learn bloodmagic.  The Bannaster scrolls can be used to learn bloodmagic (not in the game but the quest to find them specifically states this), Irving had bloodmagic books that were later confiscated and apparently Jowan learned bloodmagic that way (Jowan clearly never summoned any demon), and for what matter in DAA, you can learn Bloodmagic from lore.

Making a deal with a demon is the easiest (and thus most common) way to learn bloodmagic, but it's not a requirement.  Never has been.  Even in DAO, you can FORCE a demon to give you bloodmagic in exchange for it's life which is hardly an evil way to get it IMO.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

By teaching Anders how to use blood magic, that proves that it isn't always a case of YOU HAVING TO LEARN IT FROM A DEMON.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you mean Emperor, would I mind walking down the streets full of people with weapons openly carried, the answer is NO. In fact in Alaska I've done and seen it (not on the military base where I was but in the neighboring town).

An openly armed society is a polite one I've found. Low burglery rates too.....

-Polaris

Im guessing you were armed too, and even then, I doubt you all went about with your weapons drawn, lock'n'loaded, mages do that.
If "everyone" is armed, the playing field is even. However, everyone can't be mages.

Nice.  Someone invalidated your analogy by telling you what you didn't expect to read, and so now you're having to change in order to maintain its relevance.

What? He didn't invalidate. He brought additional data. The analogy adapts.
To make it easier for you: Does a mage fear walking amongst mages? No. Does an armed man fear walking amongst armed men? No. Does unarmed men fear an armed man walking amongst them (an obviously armed)? Yes. Does unarmed men fear a mage walking amongst them? Yes. Do they have a reason to? Yes.

Every human being is dangerous. In this instance is that some humans are simply born with bigger guns.

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz, you seem to be ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, even the fact that The Warden can instruct Anders on using blood magic, which is even confirmed in dialogue between the two characters.

Demons are not necessary to learn blood magic. And I don't see why you think Anders was being sarcastic with Merrill when he's pretty serious in most of his conversations, even when she's jesting with him about Ser Pounce-A-Lot being knighted.

The Commander can instruct Anders to learn blood magic. You don't know how he learned it.

Demons are neccesary. And Anders are still sarcastic in alot of his conversations. So I see no reason for him not to be in this (voice tone aside and all).

We dont know that it pure speculation on your part. but considering that demons are masters in bloodmagic and the chantry no doubt burns books containing bloodmagic lore , as well as prosecuting bloodmages its not illogical that most mages learn bloodmagic from demons.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you mean Emperor, would I mind walking down the streets full of people with weapons openly carried, the answer is NO. In fact in Alaska I've done and seen it (not on the military base where I was but in the neighboring town).

An openly armed society is a polite one I've found. Low burglery rates too.....

-Polaris

I have hands and i can kill with it. mages are simply born with more tools to kill.
Im guessing you were armed too, and even then, I doubt you all went about with your weapons drawn, lock'n'loaded, mages do that.
If "everyone" is armed, the playing field is even. However, everyone can't be mages.

Nice.  Someone invalidated your analogy by telling you what you didn't expect to read, and so now you're having to change in order to maintain its relevance.

What? He didn't invalidate. He brought additional data. The analogy adapts.
To make it easier for you: Does a mage fear walking amongst mages? No. Does an armed man fear walking amongst armed men? No. Does unarmed men fear an armed man walking amongst them (an obviously armed)? Yes. Does unarmed men fear a mage walking amongst them? Yes. Do they have a reason to? Yes.

Every human being is dangerous. In this instance is that some humans are simply born with bigger guns.

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

I have hands and i kill people with it. I nearly did once.I hit a guy with such force on the chest that his ribs broke and punctured his lungs.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 13 mai 2011 - 09:35 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

Let's lock up all martial arts masters for public safety then.

Booya!

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

You learn blood magic in Origins from Connor's demon (Origins) or the Baroness (Awakening).

The tome sold by the dwarf in the bar (Awakening) could be considered game mechanics more than lore, he also sells the tome on how to become a Reaver which we know doesn't happen unless you drink a specialized drake blood slurpee.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Are you agreeing then, that you fear what a man aiming a gun at you might do to you? But okay, let us scrap that example and offer another. A man walking down the street with a gun drawn. Do you not mind him at all, and walk on your merry way. Or do you feel the sting of fear? Why is the gun drawn? What is he planning? Why is he doing this?
With a gun you could feel more or less safe, as the gun can be put away, or the clip may be empty. With a mage, the safety is always off, and everything depends on the dscipline, and luck, of the mage. THere are lots of reasons to fear mages for what they might do, since half of the things they might do, aren't intentional.

The question isn't whether mages pose a potential threat, but whether your fear of that threat should be all it takes to institutionalize keeping mages prisoner for life.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz, you seem to be ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, even the fact that The Warden can instruct Anders on using blood magic, which is even confirmed in dialogue between the two characters.

Demons are not necessary to learn blood magic. And I don't see why you think Anders was being sarcastic with Merrill when he's pretty serious in most of his conversations, even when she's jesting with him about Ser Pounce-A-Lot being knighted.

The Commander can instruct Anders to learn blood magic. You don't know how he learned it.

Demons are neccesary. And Anders are still sarcastic in alot of his conversations. So I see no reason for him not to be in this (voice tone aside and all).

*sigh*  You know the truth about how to learn bloodmagic regardless of what the facts may be, I see.  There are MANY canonical sources that outright state that demons are NOT required to learn bloodmagic.  The Bannaster scrolls can be used to learn bloodmagic (not in the game but the quest to find them specifically states this), Irving had bloodmagic books that were later confiscated and apparently Jowan learned bloodmagic that way (Jowan clearly never summoned any demon), and for what matter in DAA, you can learn Bloodmagic from lore.

Making a deal with a demon is the easiest (and thus most common) way to learn bloodmagic, but it's not a requirement.  Never has been.  Even in DAO, you can FORCE a demon to give you bloodmagic in exchange for it's life which is hardly an evil way to get it IMO.

-Polaris

Which canonical source? Oh that is right. None. Nothing, outright proves that demons aren't neccesary. WHile the one thing we have that speaks for it. Is how the Warden learns it.
DId you ever bother reaing the scrolls? They teach you how to contact the demons! It even says that is the very first step you have to make! Not exactly speaking in your favor.
YOu don't know what the books taught Jowan. And you don't have to summon a demon to make a deal with it, if you are a mage. Oh what? Jowan was a mage, that is right, he could contact it when he slept.
Just because that there exists books about blood magic, does not mean you can learn it without a demon's aid. So again, not speaking in your favor.

And who is talking about the morality behind blood magic? I'm talking about how it is taught. Through demons. Nothing else in the game is shown directly. So far, I have no reason to believe anything else, until directly and clearly proven. Which havn't been the case yet.

[Silfren]

DKJaigen wrote...

We dont know that it pure speculation on your part. but considering that demons are masters in bloodmagic and the chantry no doubt burns books containing bloodmagic lore , as well as prosecuting bloodmages its not illogical that most mages learn bloodmagic from demons.

Except when they let the Circles keep them on hand in order to entrap apprentices so that they can "weed out" potential troublemakers.  I imagine they keep a supply handy for just that purpose. 

[LobselVith8]

Anders isn't jesting with Merrill when he asks her if she learned about blood magic by accident, EmperorSahlertz. He doesn't even jest with her when she's making a joke about his former cat being knighted, and I don't see why he would be joking about blood magic when he's clearly very anti-blood magic throughout the entire storyline. He's serious almost all the time, and I don't see why you keep spreading this misinformation every chance you get about blood magic. You're not correct in stating it can only be learned from demons when we see, time and again, that it can be used without the mages involved learning it from demons.

[Silfren]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

Let's lock up all martial arts masters for public safety then.

Booya!

-Polaris

Better yet, just go with Anders suggestion to cut off people's hands.  Don't have to be a martial artist to slap, punch, or strangle people, after all.

[Sylvianus]

 

 "Pure goodness?"  Please.  Even generally decent people are never pure.  Let's not start pretending that being a morally good person means that the sun shines out your ass.

* sight *

For the Love of The God, it is simply human, and full of goodness. She cares the plight of refugees, etc..

And otherwise it exactly the same thing. The same thing.  

Everything you say makes no sense, no cohesion actually. 

You don't assume your line, or you do not know what you say. You follow the same logic as the pro-Templars. You do not realize or did you refuse to admit it.

 You see everything in black on the other side. Innocent people are on one side, the evil other.
You refuse to admit a lot of things.
You have a biased point of view on religion, and your point of view is extremist mage, so it gives less inclined to listen. No Neutral or objective reasoning. Never.

You endorse anything and everything in your camp. And condemns everything and anything when it's on the other side.

Sorry but it is useless to discuss between us. There is no interest. I want to speak to pragmatic people.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 mai 2011 - 09:43 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Guns they can't ever put down, or take the bullets out of.

Let's lock up all martial arts masters for public safety then.

Booya!

-Polaris

I doubt a martial artist is going to spontaniously going to become a demonhost and eradicate an entire city. Of course I could be wrong. I have just never heard of any doing so.

[Dave of Canada]

Martial arts masters can blow up houses, kill an entire village of people when untrained (Connor), mind control others, raise the dead, summon demons, make other people go insane, manipulate the thoughts of other people, make people see hallucinations, turn people into stone, corrupt other individuals to do the same, live (almost?) forever, drain the life essence out of people, ect all possibly against his own will?

Mages are human too, any insane person who isn't a mage could do a lot more damage if he was. Imagine Gamlen being a mage, imagine Meredith, imagine Loghain. You love bringing up examples of how dangerous normal people can be, though if they were mages then the situations would be worse.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2011 - 09:41 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

You learn blood magic in Origins from Connor's demon (Origins) or the Baroness (Awakening).

The tome sold by the dwarf in the bar (Awakening) could be considered game mechanics more than lore, he also sells the tome on how to become a Reaver which we know doesn't happen unless you drink a specialized drake blood slurpee.

Re the Reaver.  No we don't.  We know that a dragonblood slurpee can be used to gain the Reaver specialization, but we don't know if that's required.  There are enough canonical sources about bloodmagic that tell us that Demons are NOT required to learn bloodmagic either.  There are books (we see examples of such not only on Irving's Desk but the scrolls of banaster) and we are told such can be used to learn bloodmagic.  Jowan did not lean bloodmagic from a demon either....and it seems clear to me that Uldred taught several and Uldred wasn't always a demon either.

Again, the facts of the game lore seems reasonbly clear to me.  While the most common way to learn bloodmagic may be from a demon, it's not the only way and it's not required.

-Polaris