86 réponses à ce sujet

[BiowarEA]

MrIDunnoYou wrote...

early concepts for the Qunari had them with horns... And a tail.

Early concept art for the Qunari (and Sten) before the whole nonsensical DA2 horn retcon:

Modifié par BiowarEA, 23 mars 2011 - 04:33 .

[Hatchetman77]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

It's pretty much a retcon, but that was BioWare's explanation for the Qunari design change.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari#Social

It's not a retcon. It's a precon. The explanation was offered in advance to explain why Sten was different from the rest of the Qunari (who are only mentioned, not seen in-game), not retroactively to explain why these Qunari are different from Sten.

Umm, there were tons of Qunari in Origins. I remember one being in the party that tries to kill you in the Pearl, there were one or two guarding the door for Lelianna's companions quest and there were lots acting as mercenaries in various roadside encounters.

I have no idea why they were retconned.  Dark skinned and white hair look was awesome.  Cornrows and dreadlocks are way superior to horns.

Modifié par Hatchetman77, 23 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[Malja]

@BiowarEA: Since when was that concept art for the entire Qunari race and not just Sten?

[Poleaxe]

I don't get the defense of BW in this case. It's obvious they made a change, but it's really not that big a deal. I'm fine with the new look- just don't ****** on me and tell me it's raining.

[BiowarEA]

Errrr... Sten was supposed to represent the atypical Quari male ... as far as I recall there was no hint, no codex entry in DAO that suggested some Qunari had horns. Given that so much else about the wider world, that didn't have a lot to do directly with DAO was touched on in the codex and elsewhere, I think its fair to say that horns were added to Qunari in DA2 just as much as Flemeth's new hairstyle was.

[MrIDunnoYou]

BiowarEA wrote...

MrIDunnoYou wrote...

early concepts for the Qunari had them with horns... And a tail.

Early concept art for the Qunari (and Sten) before the whole nonsensical DA2 horn retcon:

Early, as in while everything was still on the drawing board, and before Sten even came into the picture.

[Vicious]

The Qunari were originally [7 years ago] supposed to be some kind of lizardfolk.


I don't mind the Horns retcon. It explains how the Ogres have HUGE HORNS. It never made sense before.

[Dark83]

Jeez, what is with you people?
It's a retcon. There's no such thing as a "precon" - continuity was changed later. It's just an art change. It's the same with the elves - look at Merrill.
The fanboys trying to say "It's all part of a brilliant plan!" are just looking deluded with really brown noses.

[_000Darkstar]

Sen4LifE wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Poleaxe wrote...

Sten's old unit that we meet in the fade had no horns.

retcon

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

No matter how annoying it's getting, unfortunately it does mean what they want it to mean.

Look up "Retroactive Continuity"

Bioware went into Origins wanting to put horns on the Qunari, including Sten. Unfortunately, they realized that doing so would mean having to have separate helmet meshes for Qunari and for humans, dwarfs, and elves. They've explained the absense of horns in Origins, lore wise, in the codex.

It's not a retcon.

Modifié par _000Darkstar, 23 mars 2011 - 06:35 .

[Not...Mordin]

Way back when he had black hair Sten was originally a black human named Carl, he converted to the Qun and was made Sten after proving himself to the Arishok in one on one battle.

[Bathead]

Dark83 wrote...

Jeez, what is with you people?
It's a retcon. There's no such thing as a "precon" - continuity was changed later. It's just an art change. It's the same with the elves - look at Merrill.
The fanboys trying to say "It's all part of a brilliant plan!" are just looking deluded with really brown noses.

Retcon, precon, who gives a crap.  I like the redesign. I don't care if it makes sense or not.

[BiowarEA]

_000Darkstar wrote...

Bioware went into Origins wanting to put horns on the Qunari, including Sten.

It's not a retcon.

Source? And let it not be an ex post facto one by a developer.

Modifié par BiowarEA, 23 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[Dark83]

_000Darkstar wrote...

Let's break it down.

Bioware went into Origins wanting to put horns on the Qunari, including Sten.

How nice of them. I'm sure they wanted lots of things.

Unfortunately, they realized that doing so would mean having to have separate helmet meshes for Qunari and for humans, dwarfs, and elves.

Therefore, in Dragon Age Origins, Qunari had no horns. As far as Dragon Age canon was concerned at that point, Qunari had no horns.

They've explained the absense of horns in Origins, lore wise, in the codex.

So once Dragon Age 2 came out, Qunari had horns, and the reason why the ones in the first game didn't were explained away.

It's not a retcon.

ST:TOS - Klingons are funny looking humans. These are Klingons.
ST:TNG - Klingons all have pointy bits on their skulls. All Klingons look like this. Certain ones (ie. all the ones before) don't because of something they "do not discuss with outsiders".

2009 - Qunari had no horns. No Qunari had horns.
2011 - Qunari have horns. Certain ones (ie. all the ones before) don't because of brand new Codex entry.

2009 - Elves look like humans with pointy ears. These are elves.
2011 - Elves have different skeletal structures and everything. They all just flat out do.

When subsequent releases of something add information, that doesn't affect continuity though it may present it in a new light. It adds to it. When subsequent releases change what were facts in the original release, the contiunity was changed retroactively - what is now always was.

Retcon. When Sten was first discussed people asked if he had horns, and it was explained that those were dreadlocks, Qunari have no horns.

I'm more curious what your problem is with retcons. Certainly the appearance of Elves is as much a retcon as the appearance of Klingons, so what?

[Soulcheg]

I liked old version of Qunari and Elves more, when it was just a dark medieval fantasy, before it become ~Avatar meets Final Fantasy~ thing :-(

But, i guess, it's just me :-(

[jweath]

It reminds of Star Trek next Generation why they went back in time and someone was asking Warf where the Klingons were. He pointed them out and everyone the guy was saying those are Klingons. What happened? Worf just says we don't like to talk about it. The Qunari always a touch too Klingon commander Worf types to me. Now they pulled another Klingon on the game.

[jweath]

Also the Darkspawn really changed for awakenings onward as well. In Awakenings I thought it had something to do with the Mother/Architect but the change stuck for Dragon Age 2. They look more human and less twisted than the old Hurlocks. I actually don't remember seeing a genlock in DA2.

[viverravid]

Gaider claims Qunari were always supposed to have horns, but didn't end up having them in DA:O because doing so would mean they couldn't wear the same helmets as the other characters.

This is probably true because of the Ogre-Qunari link mentioned in DA:O in the Broodmother quest.

Post is way back in one of the early DA2 threads after the release of the Qunari concept art. Good luck finding it.

[Sabariel]

BiowarEA wrote...

MrIDunnoYou wrote...

early concepts for the Qunari had them with horns... And a tail.

Early concept art for the Qunari (and Sten) before the whole nonsensical DA2 horn retcon:

[Deylar]

_000Darkstar wrote...
Bioware went into Origins wanting to put horns on the Qunari, including Sten. Unfortunately, they realized that doing so would mean having to have separate helmet meshes for Qunari and for humans, dwarfs, and elves. They've explained the absense of horns in Origins, lore wise, in the codex.

So, Bioware was lazy?

Caue any other game developer would have gladly taken on the challenge.

I mean come on. Lionshead probably had to do a mesh for the clothing to fit on your character whom either gets Taller, more muscular, or fat. In Fable 3 they added hair meshes to their hats. They had several different outifts and allowed you to mix and match.

Bethseda would have gladly taken on this task as well.

So, Bioware is just lazy. And decide to justify their laziness. 

[Kajan451]

jweath wrote...

The Qunari always a touch too Klingon commander Worf types to me. Now they pulled another Klingon on the game.

Despite the irony of the situation... i always thought Sten reminded me to much of Worf. While i don't appericate the redesign of the elven (they can hardly get more anime style), i do appericate the redesign of the Qunari. At least now they do not remind me of Worf anymore.

So i am kind of glad they pulled another Klingon on them, it makes them appear less Klingony.

[Deylar]

Kajan451 wrote...
So i am kind of glad they pulled another Klingon on them, it makes them appear less Klingony.

See that isn't how I viewed the Quanari at all.

They reminded me more of the Vikings, than they did Klingon.

[blahq34653]

They should have just left the error in continuity unanswered and maybe brought back Sten in a cameo or as a companion in a future game with horns. The whole BS "non-horned" Qunari idea opens more holes than it closes.

[Aramintai]

It's obvious that horned Qunari concept for DAII was made to explain why ogres have horns. Since darkspawn resemble their original forms, be it tall hurlocks (humans), short genlocks (dwarves), pointy eared shrieks (elves) it was only logical to question why ogres were so different from qunari.
As to why horns weren't implemented in the first game I'm thinking it would be either of these explanations:
- During the first game development devs didn't have the horned qunari concept in mind. Or didn't link qunari and ogres until the late stage.
- Horned ogre concept art was just too awesome to throw it away. And I seem to recall some dev said that in the early stage it had even bigger horns, so they even had to tell concept artist to make him less exaggerated.
- Sten is a companion and you would want him to wear any standard armor you find just like with the other companions. So that means no horns protruding from holes in bucket-helmet. Making his model unique would be too much effort in designing armor meshes exclusively for him. Same goes for other qunari in the first game. In DAII every companion has unique model and armor, which you can't change at your leisure, so even if devs decided to add a horned qunari companion in DAII it could have been done. But since qunari in DA II are just anther type of enemy devs were free to change them as they saw fit, so they decided to make them more ogre resembling, even at the expense on the continuity.

Personally, I think that new qunari model is more interesting and really distinguishes their race from others. In the first game they looked just like large humans.

Modifié par Aramintai, 23 mars 2011 - 10:14 .

[Farbelowaverage]

I still don't understand why there is a conflict in the art change at all... it was established early on that the Qunari is a culture, not a race. Under that definition, there could be multiple "tribes" that don't share a genetic lineage.

The Ferelden Qunari, could easily comprise an entirely separate race from the more populous horned Qunari. Or, given their exceptionally pragmatic views, you could attach a bit of lore to it and say the hornless Qunari are a mutation and make them sterile; this would explain why they were the ones sent to Ferelden as scouts or why they run away as mercenaries. They can't contribute to the population, and are therefore disposable.

[Kajan451]

Deylar wrote...

Kajan451 wrote...
So i am kind of glad they pulled another Klingon on them, it makes them appear less Klingony.

See that isn't how I viewed the Quanari at all.

They reminded me more of the Vikings, than they did Klingon.

Vikings? No, not at all. Japanese Samurai.. yes.. sitting on an islang with a strong honor codex and a disadain for outsiders who do not have their culture and going like "you won't ever understand us"... yes... but Vikings? No, not really. The whole thing with their Tribe and Honor Code (not saying Vikings didn't have that as well) doesn't really fit to Vikings. Vikings never gave much about Standing and Station... they been all about "you are what you can seize and keep". If at all.. i'd go with Japanese Samurai with a tribal groove.

Anyway... to me they been always a lot Klingony.. ever since i first freed Sten from that cage, he always reminded me of an grumpy Worf. He even was black... and even though Worf never had cornrows... black people and cornrows are so cliche... it just made him seem even more like Worf. If there had been a line about his precious sword, after you found it being smaller than other two handed weapons... i could almost imagine him gruff about the "litte".

You know like:

Warden: Tough little sword you got there.
Sten: *snort* Little?