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Interview with DA2 lead level designer


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#276
-Semper-

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YohkoOhno wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I call bull****.  There is a huge number of games out there where there is massive numbers of people in areas. Hell, N64 and Ocarina of Time had about the same amount of people in areas...

Not even going to mention Assassins Creed, GTA, Mafia 2...oh wait...


It's possible Bioware doesn't have as good an engine as they'd like, or that to make it work on consoles they had to sacrifice a lot.  

Even the people making competing games like The Witcher 2 have said that they had to build a new engine to be optimized for the needs of an RPG.  While Assassin's Creed 2 has a lot of people, there are very limited reactions and not a lot of dynamic scripting involved.


you mean in da2 the crowd was very responsive and dynamically scripted? they just stand there with their repetitive low poly nwn1 cage with a text floating above their head. there is no crowd control or interaction at all... btw cd project developed a new engine to support a dynamic quest system ;)

Modifié par -Semper-, 24 mars 2011 - 05:49 .


#277
Demx

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Thanks for the translation! The interview had some good questions. By now BioWare must know they are on the wrong track. ;)


From what I read, they are plugging their ears and saying, "La la la la la la la la la la la."

#278
Ygolnac

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Herr Sovereign wrote...

addu2urmanapool wrote...

"

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars. How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance."

Weak!

It's pretty funny how my Hawke badmouths blood magic, yet he uses it! Oh the irony.....
But seriously, it is getting pretty tiresome how they play the "gameplay mechanic > logic" card.


You are not forced to use bloodmagic. If the plot for you is far more important than game mechanics, and you absolutely want no discrepacy, just don't spend points in it and never use it.

#279
City6

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Ygolnac wrote...

Herr Sovereign wrote...

addu2urmanapool wrote...

"

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars. How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance."

Weak!

It's pretty funny how my Hawke badmouths blood magic, yet he uses it! Oh the irony.....
But seriously, it is getting pretty tiresome how they play the "gameplay mechanic > logic" card.


You are not forced to use bloodmagic. If the plot for you is far more important than game mechanics, and you absolutely want no discrepacy, just don't spend points in it and never use it.



The problem is, in previous Bioware games this would be addressed in game. It's not an unusual situation to come up.

#280
MonkeyLungs

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Ygolnac wrote...

You are not forced to use bloodmagic. If the plot for you is far more important than game mechanics, and you absolutely want no discrepacy, just don't spend points in it and never use it.


Do you honestly stand behind that satement? Really?

If you do use Blood Magic (playing as Hawke) then shouldn't he NOT badmouth it.

The conflict with magic, mages, and especially Blood Magic is central to the story and the underyling backbone of the lore. Why is it ok for that not to become central to the gameplay and character as well? WHY???

#281
GodBID

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When i was reading that interview, it feelt like i was getting trolled every step of the way by someone with black belt in trolling o.O

#282
konjusina

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Everyone and their mother is a Blood Mage. It's hilarious how lazy BioWare has become and pretty soon they will give SquareEnix a run for their money.

#283
Alikain

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Brockololly wrote...

Yeah....I want some of that Kool Aid if anyone is trying to paint Kirkwall as even remotely in the same league as the settings of a GTA or Assassin's Creed. BioWare has never made a very convincing city outside of Athkatla in BG2.

These interviews just sort of reinforce the notion that some straight up puzzling design decisions were made on DA2, seemingly ignoring many of the strengths of Origins. I mean, ignoring the fact that Hawke can flaunt blood magic right in front of Templars when Kirkwall is supposed to be a damned Templar stronghold? Come on- BG2 had the Cowled Wizards crack down on magic use in Athkatla, why not the Templars in DA2? Oh, Hawke is just too awesome apparently.

And this gem:

A talking hero is a very strong thing and so is a specific man with a history and family of his own. This is a different approach which meant we had to give up the freedom of the character designs. The team believes that overall this approach is better and develops the genre towards more interesting directions.

Yeah, a fixed protagonist just develops the genre into an on rails wanna be movie. What use is a fixed PC, "personal" story when the player doesn't give a damn about the PC and everything thats supposed to make the story more personal?


I have to agree with you on this one. in BG2 if any magic was cast by any mage in the city of Athkatla you get the Cowled Wizards on your back. DA2 was such a failer i don't even wouldn't  say it part of the DA universe. everything from the looks of the darkspwan and beyond was just pure wrong. 

#284
MonkeyLungs

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From reading this thread it appears that most of us want more depth, not less.

#285
Alpha1234

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I demand the resignation Yaron Jacobs. Recycling areas for about 70% of an AAA game is an insult game designers everywhere.

#286
Taura-Tierno

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EccentricSage wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Everyone seems to agree about the reuse of environments and how lousy that was, but ...

You know there are plenty of people who actually enjoy the unique outfits, right? And that, had they scrapped the Blood Mage because there was no perfectly logical way to implement it (like the Warden in DA:O), I'd bet we'd have heard tons of rants about how they should've found a way to do just that, because "it should be our choice if Hawke wants to be a blood mage or not".

And whether or not it'd be easy to manage tons of people in the city from a technical perspective ... depends on how the characters are handled technically. Doesn't feel unlikely that you can't have huge throngs of people everywhere. Would've been nice with a bit more, though ...


Why not have the unique upgradable outfits, but optional?  I can't stand seeing Isabella dressed like some stripper bar wench.  It's beyond retarded to go into battle dressed like that.  Same goes for elves with bare feet. 

ORLY?  And why is that?  Please explain how it is IMPOSIBLE to come up with in-game logic for using Blood Magic, or alternatively in-game repercussions for being seen using Blood Magic.  The writing team and level design dev should have simply worked tohgether on figuring it out.  Only problem is that would be hard work, which this level designer aparently is too lazy to do.

Your last point I agree with.  I know they had time contraints, but really... we have moddrs here who have tested it out and say it shouldn't have been a problem, and there are plenty of games on the market that pull off higher population density without problems.  Maybe his excuse should be "I suck at my job, and did not think quality is important in a sequel.  We already have your money."


Having the unique clothes as optional, I could go with, as long as they're just as good as any armour you can pick up otherwise. If it's easy to implement, and doesn't take much time from other aspects of the game. 

Personally, I'm not that big a fan of the blood mage specialisation at all, so I'd rather have seen it unattainable, but I realise that lots of people probably want to be able to take that "darker" path ... but if there were ramifications, they would have to be immense, since we're talking about Blood Magic. Such as, if anyone sees Hawke using it and survives, Hawke dies. Dies, as in, game over, because the templars would catch him/her, and out of fairness, it'd be a lot nicer to have that happend right away than after a few hours of gameplay. Which would probably that those skills would only end up being usable in very remote locations. Which is how I've always pictured Blood Magic ... but it would make for a boring specialisation, if the abilities can rarely be used, at all. The same should, of course, apply to Merril as well. 

But lacking any such ramifications, any other kind of consequences would feel hollow, because that's just how bad Blood Magic seems to be perceived. So anything less would just seem a meek attempt at introducing consequences for the sake of having something. So I'd rather they either a) skip it altogether, or B) do as they did here, and not have the consequences. 

Pick and choose; I don't really care which option they use for the next game. Optimally for DA3, of course, would be a good in-game reason for being a blood mage that cannot be touched by the law, but I think that seems to be pretty much restricted to the Wardens, unless there are other groups that are universally immune. I cannot imagine what in-game reason would have made Hawke a legitimate Blood Mage in DA2.

As for the population of Kirkwall, or lack thereof ... Yeah, I agree it seems a bit odd that it should be difficult. But then again, I'm always very reluctant to say "it should be easy", since, without knowing how the game is built, I really have no idea how easy it should be. As a programmer, I know that things can seem extremely easy to implement, but that doesn't mean they are. So I won't criticise Bioware on that decision, just wish that there are more NPC's around in DA3.

#287
planed scaped

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Q: How were DAO's DLCs accepted? Did it influence your plans for such content for DA2?

A:
The DLCs have been very popular. We broke all kinds of inner records at
EA in this area. Of course DLCs are now an integral part of the game.
We want players to continue enjoying the game as long as possible and
DLC is the best way to achieve this goal.



*Waves bye bye to my hopes Bioware will release DLC that actually expands the game and gives it the much needed fleshing out, fixing, and polish that it needs*

Hooray for Wardens Keep 2, Return to the Primeval Thaig and of course the Constructs of the reused interiors of cave 233!!!

Also, I would like to say I actually liked ME2 more then ME1 >__> yet I think DA2 is leaps and bounds behind DA:O
And I actually liked the speaking protagonist a lot more. I just wish there were more then 3 Dialog options.

I wouldn't mind the companions having static outfits if when you got the armor upgrades it also gave you alternate outfits for them. I have Billions of other issues and things to say but am too exhausted to write a wall'o'text no one will read. :P

I primarily post on the Gamefaqs/Gamespot boards and am surprised to see just as many people here as there that are upset with Dragon Age 2. And they say were the vocal minority hah!

Modifié par planed scaped, 25 mars 2011 - 05:58 .


#288
EccentricSage

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Taura-Tierno wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Everyone seems to agree about the reuse of environments and how lousy that was, but ...

You know there are plenty of people who actually enjoy the unique outfits, right? And that, had they scrapped the Blood Mage because there was no perfectly logical way to implement it (like the Warden in DA:O), I'd bet we'd have heard tons of rants about how they should've found a way to do just that, because "it should be our choice if Hawke wants to be a blood mage or not".

And whether or not it'd be easy to manage tons of people in the city from a technical perspective ... depends on how the characters are handled technically. Doesn't feel unlikely that you can't have huge throngs of people everywhere. Would've been nice with a bit more, though ...


Why not have the unique upgradable outfits, but optional?  I can't stand seeing Isabella dressed like some stripper bar wench.  It's beyond retarded to go into battle dressed like that.  Same goes for elves with bare feet. 

ORLY?  And why is that?  Please explain how it is IMPOSIBLE to come up with in-game logic for using Blood Magic, or alternatively in-game repercussions for being seen using Blood Magic.  The writing team and level design dev should have simply worked tohgether on figuring it out.  Only problem is that would be hard work, which this level designer aparently is too lazy to do.

Your last point I agree with.  I know they had time contraints, but really... we have moddrs here who have tested it out and say it shouldn't have been a problem, and there are plenty of games on the market that pull off higher population density without problems.  Maybe his excuse should be "I suck at my job, and did not think quality is important in a sequel.  We already have your money."


Having the unique clothes as optional, I could go with, as long as they're just as good as any armour you can pick up otherwise. If it's easy to implement, and doesn't take much time from other aspects of the game. 

Personally, I'm not that big a fan of the blood mage specialisation at all, so I'd rather have seen it unattainable, but I realise that lots of people probably want to be able to take that "darker" path ... but if there were ramifications, they would have to be immense, since we're talking about Blood Magic. Such as, if anyone sees Hawke using it and survives, Hawke dies. Dies, as in, game over, because the templars would catch him/her, and out of fairness, it'd be a lot nicer to have that happend right away than after a few hours of gameplay. Which would probably that those skills would only end up being usable in very remote locations. Which is how I've always pictured Blood Magic ... but it would make for a boring specialisation, if the abilities can rarely be used, at all. The same should, of course, apply to Merril as well. 

But lacking any such ramifications, any other kind of consequences would feel hollow, because that's just how bad Blood Magic seems to be perceived. So anything less would just seem a meek attempt at introducing consequences for the sake of having something. So I'd rather they either a) skip it altogether, or B) do as they did here, and not have the consequences. 

Pick and choose; I don't really care which option they use for the next game. Optimally for DA3, of course, would be a good in-game reason for being a blood mage that cannot be touched by the law, but I think that seems to be pretty much restricted to the Wardens, unless there are other groups that are universally immune. I cannot imagine what in-game reason would have made Hawke a legitimate Blood Mage in DA2.

As for the population of Kirkwall, or lack thereof ... Yeah, I agree it seems a bit odd that it should be difficult. But then again, I'm always very reluctant to say "it should be easy", since, without knowing how the game is built, I really have no idea how easy it should be. As a programmer, I know that things can seem extremely easy to implement, but that doesn't mean they are. So I won't criticise Bioware on that decision, just wish that there are more NPC's around in DA3.


I think it would at least have been nice if the companions recognise that Hawk is using Blood magic.   This bothered me in Origins, too.  It would be nice if it effected their dialogue and how they see you.  Can you imagine how it would be dealing with Fenriss confronting you?  Especially once he trusts you... he'd probably feel betrayed.  Merril on the other hand could see you as understanding her even more for it.  There could have been some really interesting trade-offs.

I think in designing the game, they could have from the start made the majority of blood magic techniques really cloak and dagger, rather than flashy.  One would think Blood Mages would want to be discreet about what they are doing, at least untill they are really rolling out the big guns for a life-or death battle.  But no, when you click the button, awesome stuff has to happen, no matter how storry breaking.  -_-

I really think the whole idea of mages in Kirkwall having to be in hiding, but Hawk right from the start being able to flaunt his or her magic in the presence of Templars is silly.  When they wrote the story, David Gaider should have considered the fact that you would need some sort of plot device, otherwise there is a huge hole in the plot.  I don't think it's good that they are shrugging their shoulders at gaping plot holes and just expecting players to make excuses for them.  A plot that can not be sustained without holes in it is not a good plot.

Maybe there could have been some sort of test, some sort of leesh, applied to non-imprisoned mages, that allows a select few mages to 'serve mankind' more actively.  And then maybe your character finds ways around that, and violates that pact at great risk.  I think it would have added another layer to the story.

#289
AngryFrozenWater

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Siradix wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Thanks for the translation! The interview had some good questions. By now BioWare must know they are on the wrong track. ;)


From what I read, they are plugging their ears and saying, "La la la la la la la la la la la."

The defensive answers read more like damage control to me. ;)

#290
planed scaped

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Honestly I'd prefer no Blood Mage or Templar specialization's. I didn't understand them in Origins and they make even less sense in DA2.

After the backlash of DA2 I was intially thinking of not getting ME3. Then I remembered that it is being made by a different team so I still have some hope.

I will wait for reviews this time though. Not like Preorder bonus' really matter anyway.

Modifié par planed scaped, 25 mars 2011 - 05:48 .


#291
MrWakka

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planed scaped wrote...

Honestly I'd prefer no Blood Mage or Templar specialization's. I didn't understand them in Origins and they make even less sense in DA2.


Of the two, if cut, i'd prefer to keep the templar. From a gameplay perspective I enjoy the PBAOE effects, the ability to silence mages, and just over all like using it. On the otherhand blood mage has the most story potential but it is never used.

If there is no hook to make blood magic relevant to the story, why not simply create a new specialization that does the same things, thus keeping the style, but removing the plot hole.

They actually make plenty of sense in origins, though theres really no explanation in DA2. Templars get special training by the chantry, they don't allow rogue templars, though DA2 seems to contradict that. There are less likely to be a ex-templar to learn from than there are blood mages, so how the champion learned to use these abilities is anyones guess.

#292
AngryFrozenWater

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Hawke being a blood mage should not be a problem. It seems easy to make a deal with a demon. Maybe Hawke did that before they left Lothering. It would be cool if there was a quest to make that deal, though. Even a short one like you did for Arcane Warrior in DA:O. Now you just dump a specialization point in it. Templar is a bit odd, because this time there was no one (like Alistair) to teach it. In my third playthrough I am a blood mage and nobody seems to care. Some of the answers in the dialog assume that I am not (or even not a mage). That's bad design.

#293
astrallite

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Hawke being a blood mage should not be a problem. It seems easy to make a deal with a demon. Maybe Hawke did that before they left Lothering. It would be cool if there was a quest to make that deal, though. Even a short one like you did for Arcane Warrior in DA:O. Now you just dump a specialization point in it. Templar is a bit odd, because this time there was no one (like Alistair) to teach it. In my third playthrough I am a blood mage and nobody seems to care. Some of the answers in the dialog assume that I am not (or even not a mage). That's bad design.


You mean Hawke became a blood mage when he was level 1 and had one spell? Interesting.

Modifié par astrallite, 25 mars 2011 - 06:33 .


#294
iampool

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This guy won't be givin interviews for a loooooooooooong time, he's pretty bad at it.
EA needs guys like Laidlaw to give interview, he can lie really well, i actually bought lots of the things he said before DA2 was released... and then i played it.

#295
MrWakka

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Hawke being a blood mage should not be a problem. It seems easy to make a deal with a demon. Maybe Hawke did that before they left Lothering. It would be cool if there was a quest to make that deal, though. Even a short one like you did for Arcane Warrior in DA:O. Now you just dump a specialization point in it. Templar is a bit odd, because this time there was no one (like Alistair) to teach it. In my third playthrough I am a blood mage and nobody seems to care. Some of the answers in the dialog assume that I am not (or even not a mage). That's bad design.


The problem then arises that Hawke is a bloodmage even if you don't want him to be. Poor design in general for the specializations compared to DA:O, and ones that could largely have been avoided with a bit of creativity.

#296
viverravid

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Mrwakka wrote...

The problem then arises that Hawke is a bloodmage even if you don't want him to be. Poor design in general for the specializations compared to DA:O, and ones that could largely have been avoided with a bit of creativity.


My Hawke Mage was a blood mage purely for the 25hp.

(I took no Blood spells, and rp'ed as a blood magic hating templar sympathizing magalomaniac who thought annihilating the other mages would increase his power.)

#297
rayvioletta

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We want players to continue enjoying the game as long as possible and DLC is the best way to achieve this goal.


DLCs are one way to achieve this goal but far, far from being the best way. the best way is to simply design the game with strong replay incentive. have portions of the game that play out significantly different based on earlier decisions. have different decisions you make throughout the game have an actual noticable impact on the ending, or at least on other parts of the game
relying on DLCs to extend the games lifespan is a really bad idea. if a player has stopped playing the game they're a lot less likely to bother buying any DLC, but if they're still playing and enjoying the game they're much more likely to want to add additional things to it

#298
dobrikruh

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A: Yes, this is completely due to technical limitation. We had more people crowding the streets in early stages of development but we had to cut the number to be able to cope with the limitations of game consoles and low-end computers.

really?

3 witcher came out 3 years ago and its city feels much more alive and crowded, witcher uses biowares aurora engine

maybe bioware should do some hiring (and firing)

#299
Romantiq

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OPini wrote...


Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars. How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.


Worst LEVEL DESIGNER EVER! OMG! His responses reek of laziness and ignorance.

Cutting content out of the game is for more fun eh?

Mr. Yaron Jacobs, you make me sick. :sick:

Modifié par Romantiq, 25 mars 2011 - 03:58 .


#300
DirtyFinger

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so ... this is the dick responsible for reusing the same maps over and over and over and over and over ... ?