390 réponses à ce sujet

[dzizass]

Grovermancer wrote...

Yup.  And it was okay.  Tedious at times.  Amateurish at others.  Enjoyable overall.

And most all of the locations were pretty much the same.  Not great, not bad.  So so.

The locations were much more varied than the ones in DA:O, even though there wasn't any "dwarven" architecture or "elven" achitecture. If you compare e.g. the 3 castles in the game, each is completely different. If you take the castles in DA:O, they look basically the same (not a surprise since they use the same prefabs). Orzammar does look different than Denerim, but, again, in Orzammar every second building is the same prefab. Not to mention, that if a 100-metre wall is covered with one repetetive texture, it looks boring. The scale works against the design unfortunately.

LOL, "best of all," yeah, whatever.  Like putting the word "nice--" before anything, makes it "nice."

DA was made like a mythology.  You prolly shouldn't be playing mythologies, since based on your comments, you apparently don't have either the inclination or awareness to appreciate them, either story or design-wise.

"DA" was made like a mythology. What's that supposed to mean. Bards sing it in taverns? Warlords have DA recited on feasts? I don't appreciate the exact same story being sold 10 times. You can tell a hero story without having him join an ancient order, without him saving the world and so on.  And why "best of all it's not epic"? Going "epic" is usually a way to hide the fact the story is ludicrous. Also "epic" has been done so many times that it's hard to come up with anything that hasn't been already done a hundred times. And with DA:O BW didn't even try.

Wow!!! 

These pics prove nothing... well, actually they almost prove my point. 

BTW, where's a pic of Orzamar?  Or of any of the Thaigs?  Or of Ostagar?  Or Haven?  Or the Deeproads?  Or any of the temples?  The Werewolf temple, the Ruined Temple?

Phht, what locations in the Witcher compare to any of that?

Truly epic, grandiose, archetypal locations... yet still varied, still
personal.   Bout the only legit complaint a person could make, is that
there could be a few more NPC's to liven certain locations up.  Denerim,
basically.


BTW, you'll notice I've been talking about
design.  Look and feel and theme.  I couldn't care less if something has
"more pixels" or better resolution or whatever.

Now you're alomst contradicting yourself. I just put similar locations to show the difference in design quality. I can't really explain your prefering DA:O screenshots with anything other than either wishful thinking or fanboyism. Look at Denerim: have you ever seen a house constructed by dropping wooden logs to form a pile? That's what the few houses in Denerim look like (also - why are there no streets in Denerim? where are the other houses?). In the witcher, houses have a distinctive style and are built along streets. Not to mention that they have better textures.

As for: Orzammar or the temples - they were so generic. Especially Orzammar. But I see that you confuse big for pretty.
Witcher has had locations which really wowed me. Like the old castle near wyzima. Or Foltest's castle. Or parts of the trade quarter... Probably more, can't remember them all. None of the locations in DA:O had such effect on me. Quite the opposite - I was really disappointed when I got to Denerim and discovered that it was less of a city than Lothering.

Oh, and you do care about the technological side of the engine, it's just not very convenient for you to admit it.

LOL, aw, look, a lil' name calling with some temper tantrum! 

I guess when ya got nothing else, that's all ya can do, eh?

Lol, since when calling somebody a "fanboy" is calling names? Anyway, you introduced this kind of tone to the discussion, I just followed suit. So please cut out the hypocrisy.

Yeah, sorry, DA was made to take us on the Hero's Journey, through a mythological universe, using said story-telling techniques.  Do some research.  Or just stick to cheap, small, generic and amateurish medium, under the guise of it being "personal" or "real" or whatever.

These are not "story-telling techniques". Frame narrative is a technique. First/third person focalization is a technique. Foreshadowing something is a technique. And this is just the same story with a different flavour. 
 And I'm wondering what medium are you referring to, cause what you've written doesn't make any sense in the context of the witcher. Which I only invoked as an example of a game with a good art design.

Doesn't take much insight to see a frustrated, bitter person.

Ohhh. I see. So far I'm a frustrated bitter emo. Wonder what else you will read between the lines of my post, dr. Freud. Do continue.

Actually, to allow oneself to go along for such a journey may require one to let go of the ego.

Try it sometime.  You'll be happier.

I see that you don't really understand the concept of ego stroking.

[xCirdanx]

OPini wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Reusing Areas? I bet the Jews did it!

Dude I really hope you're either sarcastic or joking. If you aren't then you should really consult your psychologist and ask for a medicine for the "let's-blame-Jews-for-every-flaw-this-planet-has" syndrome.

I´m sure it was just a really bad joke

thanks a lot for translating this interview, i totaly missed it. i just can´t belive the answers he gave, that changes my look at DA2 a bit and at future DA titles, and not for the better (and it was already not high...). If i would have seen this interview before release, i would have cancled my pre-order.

[Grovermancer]

[quote]dzizass wrote...

The locations were much more varied than the ones in DA:O, [/quote]

What map in the Witcher is analogous to any one of the temples in DAO?   
Or the Deep Roads?  Or Haven?  Granted I only played it once, and that was long ago -- but I remember nothing on that scale.

Bout the only similarities I can readily think of, would be the forested areas, and fields areas.  And some of the towns settings.

The temples in DAO were largely the result of Tevinter architecture.  So there would be an overall similarity.  Yet they were still designed differently, still in different settings, and 'influenced' by the climate differently.  The only way they were "basically the same" is that they were temples.  And made out of stone.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
Orzammar does look different than Denerim, but, again, in Orzammar every second building is the same prefab. Not to mention, that if a 100-metre wall is covered with one repetetive texture, it looks boring. The scale works against the design unfortunately.
[/quote]

Why would buildings in a general locale look completely different?  (unless that was part of the culture)  Neither in DAO or the Witcher, are buildings 'completely different' in the same locale.  No more than in real life.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
"DA" was made like a mythology. What's that supposed to mean. [/quote]

I suspect you know exactly what I was saying, you're merely being willfully ignorant of the point.

An entire mythological backstory and world was made for DA.  The story of the player follows the hero's journey.  And as mentioned pertinent to your original remarks, even the locations fit very well within that mythological setting.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
I don't appreciate the exact same story being sold 10 times. You can tell a hero story without having him join an ancient order, without him saving the world and so on.  [/quote]

That's your preference.  To me, it's how it's told that matters; how it's told will determine if it's cliched or not. 

But I'm not gonna play a game based on a mythology, then complain when it adheres to various mythological tenants in it's presentation and experience.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
And why "best of all it's not epic"? Going "epic" is usually a way to hide the fact the story is ludicrous. Also "epic" has been done so many times that it's hard to come up with anything that hasn't been already done a hundred times. And with DA:O BW didn't even try.[/quote]

Several million people don't agree with you.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
Now you're alomst contradicting yourself. I just put similar locations to show the difference in design quality. I can't really explain your prefering DA:O screenshots with anything other than either wishful thinking or fanboyism. Look at Denerim: have you ever seen a house constructed by dropping wooden logs to form a pile? That's what the few houses in Denerim look like (also - why are there no streets in Denerim? where are the other houses?). In the witcher, houses have a distinctive style and are built along streets. Not to mention that they have better textures.
[/quote]

You linked pictures.  I don't see a single one that is objectively better from one or the other.  The only thing you could argue there are more NPC's (the same clone NPCs) in the one Witcher pic.  Interesting, as it's from the large city level towards the end of the game... one of the city maps where a majority of the game takes place.  ("no streets?"  -- Denerim had streets.  "Dropping wooden logs?"  What are you talking about?)

Why no Witcher pics comparing to Ostagar or Haven?  Or the various Deep Roads locations?  Or the temples?

[quote]dzizass wrote...
As for: Orzammar or the temples - they were so generic. Especially Orzammar. But I see that you confuse big for pretty.[/quote]

No, I recognize locations that are intentionally designed to invoke certain feelings, yet still manage to stay true to in-universe factors, such as culture, climate, and geography.   Hence why DOA's locations were just right, contrary to your original, baseless and inaccurate statement:

"- the graphics
the game didn't resemble in any way the trailers that
advertised it. Actually, DA:O looked not only worse than ME2 but also
much worse than ME1 and The Witcher which are older games."

[quote]dzizass wrote...
Oh, and you do care about the technological side of the engine, it's just not very convenient for you to admit it.
[/quote]

Naw, that's alright, I know what I care about, and I'll say what I care about.  Though since you can't back up your original opinions, I can see why you'd try and change the premise.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
Lol, since when calling somebody a "fanboy" is calling names? Anyway, you introduced this kind of tone to the discussion, I just followed suit. So please cut out the hypocrisy.[/quote]

Re-read your posts.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
These are not "story-telling techniques". Frame narrative is a technique. First/third person focalization is a technique. Foreshadowing something is a technique. And this is just the same story with a different flavour. [/quote]

Just because you say something, doesn't make it so.  Especially when your not even directly addressing what I'm saying.

First you said some simplistic nonsense about "just kililng stuff."  Then said DA wasn't a mythology.  Both statements wrong.  To that I responded that there were many aspects, "techniques," that were in DAO that correspond to a mythology, and that embody the hero's journey.

Either I didn't explain it well enough, or you're intentionally misinterpreting what I wrote, so as to argue a completely different point, and avoid admitting that the DA universe is a mythological one, that DAO is part of that mythology, and the player partakes in the hero's journey monomyth.  (oh, and yes, the design, including locations, were an intentional part of all of that)
 
[quote]dzizass wrote...
And I'm wondering what medium are you referring to, cause what you've written doesn't make any sense in the context of the witcher. Which I only invoked as an example of a game with a good art design.
[/quote]

I don't know -- whatever medium people who apparently don't want to play large, epic, mythological stories want.  It's apparently not the fantasy RPG genre.  That's why I cited indie films earlier.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
Ohhh. I see. So far I'm a frustrated bitter emo. Wonder what else you will read between the lines of my post, dr. Freud. Do continue.
[/quote]

I never said emo.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 29 mars 2011 - 05:28 .

[Syonica]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Level Designer?

must have been tough to copy and past the same maps over and over.

Agreed.  Horrible level design.  "Oh hey lets make most of the quests take place in a bland little city, and have a few quests take place in a little stretch of island that looks the same on all sides"

I heard good things about DAO, so I bought DA2.  I was sorely dissapointed at this one main aspect to the point I wont touch any other DA games from now on.

[Blacklash93]

Someone give this guy a raise!

[PlumPaul93]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Level Designer?

must have been tough to copy and paste the same maps over and over.

[dzizass]

[quote]Grovermancer wrote...

The locations were much more varied than the ones in DA:O, [/quote]

What map in the Witcher is analogous to any one of the temples in DAO?   
Or the Deep Roads?  Or Haven?  Granted I only played it once, and that was long ago -- but I remember nothing on that scale.

Bout the only similarities I can readily think of, would be the forested areas, and fields areas.  And some of the towns settings.

The temples in DAO were largely the result of Tevinter architecture.  So there would be an overall similarity.  Yet they were still designed differently, still in different settings, and 'influenced' by the climate differently.  The only way they were "basically the same" is that they were temples.  And made out of stone.
[/quote]
1. Why would witcher have to have something similar to any of the locations you mentioned? Obviously there's no direct counterpart, just like in DA:O there's nothing similar to e.g. the swamp cemetary from the witcher.
2. Obviously there's nothing of the same scale in the witcher, cause witcher was fairly realistic.
3. The temples all used the same prefabs, so yes, they all looked basically the same, only the layout differred and perhaps some flavour - Andraste's ashes temple had snow in it and werewolf temple had some bushes every now and then.

[quote]
Why would buildings in a general locale look completely different?  (unless that was part of the culture)  Neither in DAO or the Witcher, are buildings 'completely different' in the same locale.  No more than in real life.
[/quote]
Go to e.g. Prague and see why they should look different. But that's a sidenote.

[quote]

I suspect you know exactly what I was saying, you're merely being willfully ignorant of the point.

An entire mythological backstory and world was made for DA.  The story of the player follows the hero's journey.  And as mentioned pertinent to your original remarks, even the locations fit very well within that mythological setting.
[/quote]
If we follow that thought pattern, every work of fiction would be a mythology, especially in S-F and fantasy genres. So basically, that's crap. And it still doesn't really answer why would this "mythology" require BW to re-tell the same story, over and over again.

[quote]
That's your preference.  To me, it's how it's told that matters; how it's told will determine if it's cliched or not. 

[/quote]
[quote]
Several million people don't agree with you.
[/quote]

You misunderstand the word "cliche".
Wiki: A cliché or cliche (pronounced UK: /ˈkliːʃeɪ/, US: /klɪˈʃeɪ/)
is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been
overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect,
rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel.

It doesn't really matter whether you like it or not. Or those several million people (whoever they might be, LOL). The plot has been repeated so many times that everybody knows exactly what's going to happen -> the plot is cliched. Anybody who's interested in a good plot doesn't have anything to look for in DA:O, cause we've seen it all in all the previous BW games.

[quote]
("no streets?"  -- Denerim had streets.  "Dropping wooden logs?"  What are you talking about?)

Why no Witcher pics comparing to Ostagar or Haven?  Or the various Deep Roads locations?  Or the temples?
[/quote]
Denerim didn't have streets. It had squares. It was basically a field surrounded by buildings with a few random buildings every now and then.
Every house in Denerim looked like a random pile of wooden logs.

Why don't I compare anything to Ostagar etc? Cause I've only compared the design, so I had to choose direct counterparts in both games.


[quote]
No, I recognize locations that are intentionally designed to invoke certain feelings, yet still manage to stay true to in-universe factors, such as culture, climate, and geography.   Hence why DOA's locations were just right, contrary to your original, baseless and inaccurate statement:

"- the graphics
the game didn't resemble in any way the trailers that
advertised it. Actually, DA:O looked not only worse than ME2 but also
much worse than ME1 and The Witcher which are older games."
[/quote]
Your writing that I'm wrong doesn't make it false. Look at DA:O and any other AAA games from that time period (including witcher and me). DA:O looks like their impoverished cousin from Kazachstan.

[quote]

Naw, that's alright, I know what I care about, and I'll say what I care about.  Though since you can't back up your original opinions, I can see why you'd try and change the premise.

[/quote]
Those are two blatant lies.

[quote]
Re-read your posts.
[/quote]
I have. Have you? I'll repeat it: you're a hypocrite.

[quote]

Just because you say something, doesn't make it so.  Especially when your not even directly addressing what I'm saying.

[/quote]

Well, of course it doesn't. It would have been the truth no matter what I or you would have written. You can say that changing the flavour is enough for you, but it's still the same story.
[quote]
First you said some simplistic nonsense about "just kililng stuff."  Then said DA wasn't a mythology.  Both statements wrong.  To that I responded that there were many aspects, "techniques," that were in DAO that correspond to a mythology, and that embody the hero's journey.

Either I didn't explain it well enough, or you're intentionally
misinterpreting what I wrote, so as to argue a completely different
point, and avoid admitting that the DA universe is a mythological one,
that DAO is part of that mythology, and the player partakes in the
hero's journey monomyth.  (oh, and yes, the design, including locations,
were an intentional part of all of that)
[/quote]

Fine, let's see what a mythology is then, cause you obviously haven't got a clue.

Wiki:
The term mythology can refer to either the study of myths, or to a body of myths.

Typical characteristics[Let's see what characteristics of mythology does DA:O have.]
The main characters in myths are usually gods or supernatural heroes. [not really] As sacred stories, myths are often endorsed by rulers and priests and closely linked to religion .[10] [NO] In the society in which it is told, a myth is usually regarded as a true account of the remote past.[10][11][13][14] [NO] In fact, many societies have two categories of traditional narrative, "true stories" or myths, and "false stories" or fables.[15] [the latter] Myths generally take place in a primordial age, when the world had not yet achieved its current form,[10] [NO] and explain how the world gained its current form[4][5][6][16] [NO]and how customs, institutions and taboos were established. [NO][10][16]Even X-Men are more of a mythology than DA:O since they feature supernatural heroes. Even a monomyth doesn't require the hero to join an ancient order and save the world or (that's just laughable) for the locations to look bland.


 
[quote]
I don't know -- whatever medium people who apparently don't want to play large, epic, mythological stories want.  It's apparently not the fantasy RPG genre.  That's why I cited indie films earlier.
[/quote]
Again: you have no idea what you're talking about. Somehow some of the other fantasy RPG developers manage to come up with non-cliched non-epic plots.
[quote]
I never said emo.
[/quote]
I would have thought that emo films are watched by emo viewers, but whatever.

Modifié par dzizass, 30 mars 2011 - 11:27 .

[Killer3000ad]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Level Designer?

must have been tough to copy and paste the same maps over and over.

[Grovermancer]

[quote]dzizass wrote...

1. Why would witcher have to have something similar to any of the
locations you mentioned? Obviously there's no direct counterpart, just
like in DA:O there's nothing similar to e.g. the swamp cemetary from the
witcher.[/quote]

LOL, that's your 'better,' unique, awesome Witcher locale, eh?  The cemetary?  Ok.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
2. Obviously there's nothing of the same scale in the witcher, cause witcher was fairly realistic.[/quote]

And DAO was mythological.  And the locations backed that up perfectly.  Hence why your original baseless comment was wrong.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
3.
The temples all used the same prefabs, so yes, they all looked
basically the same, only the layout differred and perhaps some flavour -
Andraste's ashes temple had snow in it and werewolf temple had some
bushes every now and then.[/quote]

Yes, they were 'the same' in that they were all Tevinter temples.  And made out of stone.  Go figure.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
If we follow that thought pattern, every work of fiction would be a
mythology, especially in S-F and fantasy genres. So basically, that's
crap. And it still doesn't really answer why would this "mythology"
require BW to re-tell the same story, over and over again.[/quote]

No, it's not crap, it just doesn't support your premise.  I don't know, or care, about "every work of fiction," as I'm not talking about that.  I'm talking about your original flawed statement.  That DAO's design was bad.  It wasn't.  It fit the world perfectly, and supported the mythological universe it takes place in.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
You misunderstand the word "cliche".
Wiki: A cliché or cliche (pronounced UK: /ˈkliːʃeɪ/, US: /klɪˈʃeɪ/)
is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been
overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect,
rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel.

It doesn't really matter whether you like it or not. Or those several million people
(whoever they might be, LOL). The plot has been repeated so many times
that everybody knows exactly what's going to happen -> the plot is
cliched. Anybody who's interested in a good plot doesn't have anything
to look for in DA:O, cause we've seen it all in all the previous
BW games. [/quote]

And again, changing the premise, arguing minutia, in lieu of staying on point.  Since we know where that goes for your premise, huh? 

So let's see...  You go astray quoting the definition of cliche... then use it in the very next sentence about the DAO story being cliche, which is exactly what I was referencing when I was using it -- that the story needn't be cliche, stereotypical (whatever word you wanna use), so long as how it's told and presented is fresh, new, or powerful to the player/viewer.

Oh, I'd say the "several million" are the people who bought, played, and apparently loved it.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
Denerim didn't have streets. It had squares. It was basically a field
surrounded by buildings with a few random buildings every now and then.
Every house in Denerim looked like a random pile of wooden logs.

Why
don't I compare anything to Ostagar etc? Cause I've only compared the
design, so I had to choose direct counterparts in both games.[/quote]

Denerim had the hallmarks of any midieval town.  It wasn't "just a field surrounded by" blah blah blah.

There were back streets to Denerim where quests took place.  (now quote a wikipedia entry on "streets" to educate me how those aren't really streets somehow)

"Every house in Denerim looked like a random pile of wooden logs."  No they don't.  At all.  But whatever.  You obviously think that just cause you say something, that makes it true.

On comparison:  right -- cause DAO has all sorts of varied design, levels, and locations, each fitting the culture and atmosphere of that part of the mythological world...  again, disproving your initial wrong opinion that the "game looked bad or looked worse than..."

[quote]dzizass wrote...
Your writing that I'm wrong doesn't make it false. Look at DA:O and any
other AAA games from that time period (including witcher and me). DA:O
looks like their impoverished cousin from Kazachstan.[/quote]

No, you stating incorrect opinions make it false. 

[quote]dzizass wrote...
Those are two blatant lies.[/quote]

Wow, you're really desperate, aren't ya?  The ol "I know you are, but what am I?" tactic? 

Yeah, when I say I know what my stance is, what my view is, and what I'm debating...  I think I'd know better than you.  LOL @ you.  Trying to say what I care about. 

Sorry, I don't care if something has a little more 'pixels' or 'resolution' than something else.  I care about the design, the overall look, and the theme and atmosphere that brings.  That has nothing to do with the "technological side of the engine," as you tried to pretend I care about.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
I have. Have you? I'll repeat it: you're a hypocrite.[/quote]

Naw, I'm just not impressed by your arrogance.  You made baseless statements, but can't back em up.  Go give another wiki quote.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
Well, of course it doesn't. It would have been the truth no matter what I
or you would have written. You can say that changing the flavour is
enough for you, but it's still the same story.[/quote]

The same hero's journey?  Of course.  Though the DA-universe, everything about it, was apparently "enough" for the story to be enjoyable for the millions who bought and enjoyed it.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
Fine, let's see what a mythology is then, cause you obviously haven't got a clue.
[/quote]

You need to change the "[NO]" to "[YES]" for pretty much all those statements, in your own presented definition.  Or if not, tell people that SW and LOTR are also not mythologies.


Your problem is you're arrogant enough to think that your opinion is fact, and that just cause you say something makes it true.  Even when it's been disproven.

[dzizass]

[quote]Grovermancer wrote...

And DAO was mythological.  And the locations backed that up perfectly.  Hence why your original baseless comment was wrong.
[/quote]
LOL You have to decide: either that's just an opinion or it's wrong cause your'e inconsistent. Also, it's hardly baseless considering my previous posts.
[quote]
Yes, they were 'the same' in that they were all Tevinter temples.  And made out of stone.  Go figure.
[/quote]
That's just soo ignorant.
Two gothic temples in the same city, both made out of stone. Hence, they should be identical:

http://upload.wikime...Cathedral03.jpg
http://upload.wikime...ám_z_Orloje.JPG

Honestly, I don't really understand what you're trying to prove here.
[quote]
No, it's not crap, it just doesn't support your premise.  I don't know, or care, about "every work of fiction," as I'm not talking about that.  I'm talking about your original flawed statement.  That DAO's design was bad.  It wasn't.  It fit the world perfectly, and supported the mythological universe it takes place in.
[/quote]
Ugh, what it does prove however , and what it was meant to prove is that DA:O isn't a mythology any more than Do androids dream of electric sheep. And I also find it pretty amusing how you say that "bland" and "generic" supports its mythological character.

[quote]

And again, changing the premise, arguing minutia, in lieu of staying on point.  Since we know where that goes for your premise, huh? 

[/quote]
Don't use words you don't understand and I won't have to use wiki. Simple as that.

[quote]
So let's see...  You go astray quoting the definition of cliche... then use it in the very next sentence about the DAO story being cliche, which is exactly what I was referencing when I was using it -- that the story needn't be cliche, stereotypical (whatever word you wanna use), so long as how it's told and presented is fresh, new, or powerful to the player/viewer.
[/quote]
The DA:O story has every notion mentioned in the definition of a cliche.
[quote]
Oh, I'd say the "several million" are the people who bought, played, and apparently loved it.
[/quote]
I bought, played and hated it. If you read my post you might understand that this is what I was referring to here. BW wanted people who stopped playing DA:O to return to it. Why did they abandon it? Probably, because of what I've written there.

[quote]
Denerim had the hallmarks of any midieval town.  It wasn't "just a field surrounded by" blah blah blah.
[/quote]
You don't know anything about medieval urbanistics (including spelling), actually, you seem not to know what a street is. I've looked at the maps on DA wikia, and found only one instance of something that roughly resembled a street (with a square in the middle). That was the alienage map. Where are all the others??
[quote]
There were back streets to Denerim where quests took place.  (now quote a wikipedia entry on "streets" to educate me how those aren't really streets somehow)
[/quote]
Those are squares. They are as broad as they are long. They don't really lead anywhere.
[quote]
"Every house in Denerim looked like a random pile of wooden logs."  No they don't.  At all.  But whatever.  You obviously think that just cause you say something, that makes it true.
[/quote]
Your memory is that of a 90 year old. I'll refresh it for you:
http://images2.wikia...en_Alienage.jpg

[quote]
On comparison:  right -- cause DAO has all sorts of varied design, levels, and locations, each fitting the culture and atmosphere of that part of the mythological world...  again, disproving your initial wrong opinion that the "game looked bad or looked worse than..."
[/quote]
ROTFL. How would that disprove anything, even if it were true? Which it obviously isn't. Fail at logic.

[quote]
Wow, you're really desperate, aren't ya?  The ol "I know you are, but what am I?" tactic? 

Yeah, when I say I know what my stance is, what my view is, and what I'm debating...  I think I'd know better than you.  LOL @ you.  Trying to say what I care about. 

Sorry, I don't care if something has a little more 'pixels' or 'resolution' than something else.  I care about the design, the overall look, and the theme and atmosphere that brings.  That has nothing to do with the "technological side of the engine," as you tried to pretend I care about.
[/quote]
So you're claiming that even if you could run the game on maximum settings, you wouldn't change let's say the resolution from the minimum to a higher one, cause you don't care? That's a little too outlandish to believe.
If given two games with equally good design, people would choose the technologically more advanced. Except for you that is.

[quote]
Naw, I'm just not impressed by your arrogance.  You made baseless statements, but can't back em up.  Go give another wiki quote.
[/quote]
I am impressed with yours, though. Your saying "no, your'e wrong, because I say so", doesn't change the well-grounded-ness of my claims.
And why shouldn't I use wiki to help me prove that you don't know half as much as you think you do.

[quote]
The same hero's journey?  Of course.  Though the DA-universe, everything about it, was apparently "enough" for the story to be enjoyable for the millions who bought and enjoyed it.
[/quote]
So now you're admitting that this is a cliche? Wow.

[quote]
You need to change the "[NO]" to "[YES]" for pretty much all those statements, in your own presented definition.  Or if not, tell people that SW and LOTR are also not mythologies.
[/quote]
WOW. I mean WOW. So you do believe that the story in DA:O is actually true? Or do you pray to Andraste? 
Laughable. Obviuosly, now you're just contradicting everything without bothering to try to understand what I'm saying to make up for the fact that you don't have any counterarguments.

[quote]
Your problem is you're arrogant enough to think that your opinion is fact, and that just cause you say something makes it true.  Even when it's been disproven.
[/quote]
I probably am arrogant, and I won't deny that. But you've got this problem too, perhaps even more so, cause you back up your arrogance with all-embracing ignorance. Also, you've failed to disprove anything I've written so far, no matter what you claim here.

Modifié par dzizass, 30 mars 2011 - 07:37 .

[bmocken]

"A: This time we tried a different approach - enable the players to investigate only one main area, which has more depth and responsiveness. You can compare it to GTA game, where you are always in the same city, or maybe even compare it to Assassin's Creed to a certain degree. The player gets the chance to learn about the history, characters and secrets of one place instead of visiting a place briefly once before moving on to the next destination in his journey. It also enables a story arc which has a central link - a lot of things happen during the same time and not a long and flat timeline of events."

Are you kidding me!!! This is nothing like Assasins Creed. Bioware and EA need to learn how to tell a story like Ubisoft has with AC and maybe just maybe I would buy DA3. 

[Grovermancer]

[quote]dzizass wrote...
LOL You have to decide: either that's just an opinion or it's wrong cause your'e inconsistent. Also, it's hardly baseless considering my previous posts.[/quote]

I don't have to decide between 2 of your false choices.  (since DA is a mythology, and the locations/maps where made to fit within that mythology)

Here's what you originally said, a pure opinion:

[quote]dzizass wrote...
- the graphics
the game didn't resemble in any way the trailers that
advertised it. Actually, DA:O looked not only worse than ME2 but also
much worse than ME1 and The Witcher which are older games.[/quote]

I then offered explanations as to why DAO looked 'as good' as those other games you listed.  ME are sci-fi, going for an entirely different feel.  The Witcher is fantasy, and DAO holds up fine against it, in many locations, it blows it out of the water.

[quote]
That's just soo ignorant.
Two gothic temples in the same city, both made out of stone. Hence, they should be identical:[/quote]

No it's not.  They intentionally made much of Tevinter architecture similar.  Ostagar, as well as the 2 main temples.  This was probably to give this shared history of the region, once under Tevinter dominion.

BTW, if you were as 'worldly' as you're trying to project, I'd think you'd know that many cathedrals were built to try and 'outdo' others before them.  So of course they're not gonna be the same.  Along with about a hundred other reasons why they will look different IRL.  Fortunately, I'm not talking about temples IRL.  I'm talking about the mythological world of Thedas.  How the temples look great.  And why there are certain similarities to the temples in Fereldon, at least the ones visited in DAO.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
Ugh, what it does prove however , and what it was meant to prove is that DA:O isn't a mythology any more than Do androids dream of electric sheep. And I also find it pretty amusing how you say that "bland" and "generic" supports its mythological character.[/quote]

Except it is part of a mythology.

Really?  Where did I say DAO's design was "bland" and "generic?"  Find it.  Surely you aren't trying to argue a statement not made!  Oh, wait -- that's what most of your arguments are anyhow...!



[quote]dzizass wrote...

Don't use words you don't understand and I won't have to use wiki. Simple as that.[/quote]

Well, I haven't yet.

So let's look here a moment...  since you're good at winding down tangential roads exploring minutia, apparently in the hopes of losing the original point you were called on in the first place.

First, I said:
[quote]That's your preference.  To me, it's how it's told that matters; how it's told will determine if it's cliched or not.  [/quote]

The story is relatively the same, since forever.  How it's told, how it's presented, etc., allows it to feel new or fresh.  Not to feel cliched.  Or whatever word you need to use.

Of course, you couldn't address that, could you?  Couldn't address that how the story is presented can change whether or not it's "cliche," 'stereotypical,' or whatever word you need to use.   Instead, you tried to argue what "cliche" meant:
[quote]dzizass wrote...
You misunderstand the word "cliche".
Wiki: A cliché or cliche (pronounced UK: /ˈkliːʃeɪ/, US: /klɪˈʃeɪ/)
is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been
overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect,
rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel.[/quote]

So then I said this:

[quote]
So let's see...  You go astray quoting the definition of cliche... then use it in the very next sentence about the DAO story being cliche, which is exactly what I was referencing when I was using it -- that the story needn't be cliche, stereotypical (whatever word you wanna use), so long as how it's told and presented is fresh, new, or powerful to the player/viewer.
[/quote]

And still, willfully ignorant, trying to avoid the issue, that how the story is told and presented (which ironically, also ties into the location design) can help tell the story in a way that's not 'cliched.'

[quote]dzizass wrote...
The DA:O story has every notion mentioned in the definition of a cliche.[/quote]

And I guess just about every story ever, that is based on the hero's journey, is forevermore cliched.  No matter how that story is told.  Huh?

But yeah -- this discussion has nothing to do with shallow 'ego-stroking.'  This has nothing to do
with you having to "be right," no matter what it takes for you to try
and get there. 

"How many fingers am I holding up?"



About the streets, alleyways, etc.  There are several even in the initial location of Denerim.  And in the various other parts.  (Interesting how imporant streets are to you.)  Also a few back alleys in the other maps/quests of Denerim, including the final battles leading to Fort Drakon.  (now I remember -- cause that one urban setting is pretty much the only impressive map the Witcher had, and you're all stuck on the Witcher -- now I remember why that particular thing is so important)

[quote]dzizass wrote...
Your memory is that of a 90 year old. I'll refresh it for you:
http://images2.wikia...en_Alienage.jpg[/quote]

LOL pathetic!  First of all, that's still not how you described it!  What's worse -- THESE AREN'T THE PICS YOU PREVIOUSLY LINKED LOL!!!!!

Yeah, that's the Elven alienage, where things are decrepit and shoddy -- and it's still doesn't look like you said, it looks exactly like it should, as per the culture of the DA world!  Nice try.

"Every house in Denerim looked like a random pile of wooden logs." 

Still won't own up, eh?  Okay, maybe you were speaking hyperbole... but it's simply, objectively not true.  Period.

[quote]dzizass wrote...
ROTFL. How would that disprove anything, even if it were true? Which it obviously isn't. Fail at logic.[/quote]

Except it is true.  And you know it.  You fail at intellectual honesty.

You originally said:

[quote]dzizass wrote...
- the graphics
the game didn't resemble in any way the trailers that
advertised it. Actually, DA:O looked not only worse than ME2 but also
much worse than ME1 and The Witcher which are older games.[/quote]

I'm not sure there's a map in either ME, certainly not in the Witcher, that compares to the Deep Roads.  It's about as archetypal a 'Dwarven' a location as one could imagine.  Even as good as anything we saw in the LOTR films, yet better.  Caridan's Cross, with the bridges, lava flow, tombs...  The huge archways tunnels...  The bridges, buildings, etc in Ortan Thaig.  Cadesh Thaig, or better yet, Kal Hirol.

I can't think of anything in the Witcher that touches those locations.   Again, the Witcher was fine, worth playing... but that's about it.  If there's anything to brag about in that game, I wouldn't think it was the maps.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
So you're claiming that even if you could run the game on maximum settings, you wouldn't change let's say the resolution from the minimum to a higher one, cause you don't care? That's a little too outlandish to believe.
If given two games with equally good design, people would choose the technologically more advanced. Except for you that is.[/quote]

I pretty much ran everything, on both games, on the default auto-calibrated video settings, with minor up-changes.  If I tweaked anything, it would have been something simple, like character shadows or such.  Maybe push up AA 1 notch.  Either way, whatever I did, I probably did the same thing for both games.  GeForce 9800GT, 4GB Ram, AMD Quad 3.4GHz

[quote]dzizass wrote...
So now you're admitting that this is a cliche? Wow.[/quote]

Tiresome. 

Of course not.  Because it's not.



[quote]dzizass wrote...

WOW. I mean WOW. So you do believe that the story in DA:O is actually true? Or do you pray to Andraste? 
Laughable. Obviuosly, now you're just contradicting everything without bothering to try to understand what I'm saying to make up for the fact that you don't have any counterarguments.[/quote]

Then neither Star Wars nor Lord of the Rings are mythologies, either.  Except they are.  And so is DAO/the DA universe.

See if you can find some more quotes that don't address that.


[quote]dzizass wrote...
I probably am arrogant, and I won't deny that. But you've got this problem too, perhaps even more so, cause you back up your arrogance with all-embracing ignorance. Also, you've failed to disprove anything I've written so far, no matter what you claim here.
[/quote]

"Disprove" what -- your opinions?

[quote]dzizass wrote...

Most of the design problems of DA2
originate in BioWare's belief that many people stopped playing DA:O
after just a few hours because they were overwhelmed with the RPG
mechanics: e.g. they couldn't figure out what a such sophisticated
notion like "STR" on the character screen is.

Maybe the problems originated for reasons already listed in countless threads, like EA wanting to make a quick buck, and the changes allowed for a quicker output of a DA2 product.  Or they were trying to appeal to a larger fanbase. 

Well, BioWare, maybe, just maybe, people abandoned the game because of:
- the graphics
the
game didn't resemble in any way the trailers that advertised it.
Actually, DA:O looked not only worse than ME2 but also much worse than
ME1 and The Witcher which are older games.

Opinion.  And one easily countered, by the design, look and feel of DAO being perfect for the DA world, and in many cases, blowing away the design, look, and feel of 'the Witcher."

- extremely bad dialogues

Opinion.

- boring combat

Opinion.  DAO's combat was nearly spot-on for the DA universe.  Far better than DA2's "consolized" combat.


That's
just a few things that BW could have considered. But no. They decided
that the game is not stupid enough to appeal to most people. Well done,
BioWare![/quote]

Though you are right in saying that some people could have held those "questionable" opinions; you apparently do, afterall.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 30 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[dzizass]

Grovermancer wrote...
snip

I was planning to address it line by line again, which was pretty tiresome, but then I changed my mind, since you managed to prove two things.

You indirectly proved that you are willing to lie just to support your statements, by admitting to having tweaked settings in-game. I've already written that you do care about technical stuff (everybody does), you negated and then you willingfully proved that you do. This is a minor point in the discussion but is pretty telling about you.

You proved that your opinion can't be swayed even if it's proved 100% wrong. Even though I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that DA:O isn't a  mythology cause it doesn't have any of the features of a mythology (it's not religious, not about the origins of the world, not about gods, not considered to be truth, etc.), you repeat that it is. Just because you say so. So what that the definition of a mythology says otherwise.
So you either never change your opinion or you just have problems with reading comprehension.

I should have probably ended it earlier, but my previous arguments weren't grounded on hard, measurable proof but on interpretation of facts, which I considered to be obvious. E.g. the whole thing about the houses in Denerim which was based just on photos. If I said that they don't look like piles of wood, but as if somebody was completely drunk when building them, you could have said that there's a whole town deliberately built like that where you live and that this is an architectural style. Obviously, I'd be in no position to deny that, I could only say that I don't believe you.

These two things lead to the obvious conclusion that continuing this tiresome discussion is pointless.

[Grovermancer]

dzizass wrote...
You indirectly proved that you are willing to lie just to support your statements,

I've not lied once. 

You claiming that is called "irony."

dzizass wrote...
by admitting to having tweaked settings in-game. I've already written that you do care about technical stuff (everybody does), you negated and then you willingfully proved that you do.

You originally said:

dzizass wrote...
Well, BioWare, maybe, just maybe, people abandoned the game because of:
- the graphics
the
game didn't resemble in any way the trailers that advertised it.
Actually, DA:O looked not only worse than ME2 but also much worse than
ME1 and The Witcher which are older games.

To this, I've argued nothing except the design, the look, the feel, and the atmosphere of DAO's maps and locations, and how they fit perfectly for the mythology of the game.

Not once did I ever mention anything about "resolution" or "textures" or "pixels" or any other "technical stuff" in my debate about DAO's maps and locations.  Me adding shadows to my Witcher play-through has nothing to do with any of that.  (Were you lying when you definitively stated I "cared about" all that, when I'd not stated anything about it, nor did it have anything to do with my debate?)

dzizass wrote...
You proved that your opinion can't be swayed even if it's proved 100% wrong.

How would you know?  You've not proved a single thing I said as wrong.

dzizass wrote...
Even though I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that DA:O isn't a  mythology cause it doesn't have any of the features of a mythology (it's not religious, not about the origins of the world, not about gods, not considered to be truth, etc.), you repeat that it is. Just because you say so. So what that the definition of a mythology says otherwise.

And I ask again:  what about Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings?  Because they don't fit that narrow, cherry-picked definition either.  Yet they're both considered mythologies.  So would the DA universe, which DAO is an integral part of.

dzizass wrote...
E.g. the whole thing about the houses in Denerim which was based just on photos. If I said that they don't look like piles of wood, but as if somebody was completely drunk when building them, you could have said that there's a whole town deliberately built like that where you live and that this is an architectural style.

Some of the houses are built to appropriately look like lower-income people live there.  Especially in the alienage, as per the culture.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 01 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[Oopsieoops]

"A: Everyone were very enthusiastic about creating a game which will be
more accessible for a wider audience, without giving up the core
components of the original game, while trying to add to the player pool
for this game those people who felt intimidated by elements of DAO -
such as the UI.
This is especially true for the console version of
DA2 - we wanted to make the game more responsive and fun when you use a
controller."
IOW: We want to remake DA as a dumbed-down casual mainstream hackn'slash   action game while pretending it's still a RPG. Also, console users will be all we care about from now on.

"In this game we wanted to tell a specific story, more personal. A
talking hero is a very strong thing and so is a specific man with a
history and family of his own. This is a different approach which meant
we had to give up the freedom of the character designs. The team
believes that overall this approach is better and developes the genre
towards more interesting directions."
IOW: We want to remake DA as a dumbed-down casual mainstream hackn'slash action game while pretending it's still a RPG, and as such we're limiting the amount of role-play you can do with your characters.

Urgh, never mind. Basically, it boils down to "we're happy with what we're doing and we ain't changing it back. u mad?". Maybe it's just PR and there's actually a possibility that they'll revert the franchise's denaturation, but I won't hold my breath.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

ALVIG824 wrote...

addu2urmanapool wrote...

"

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars. How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance."

Weak!

*facepalm*

*double facepalm*

[Frybread76]

Oopsieoops wrote...

"A: Everyone were very enthusiastic about creating a game which will be
more accessible for a wider audience, without giving up the core
components of the original game, while trying to add to the player pool
for this game those people who felt intimidated by elements of DAO -
such as the UI.
This is especially true for the console version of
DA2 - we wanted to make the game more responsive and fun when you use a
controller."
IOW: We want to remake DA as a dumbed-down casual mainstream hackn'slash   action game while pretending it's still a RPG. Also, console users will be all we care about from now on.

"In this game we wanted to tell a specific story, more personal. A
talking hero is a very strong thing and so is a specific man with a
history and family of his own. This is a different approach which meant
we had to give up the freedom of the character designs. The team
believes that overall this approach is better and developes the genre
towards more interesting directions."
IOW: We want to remake DA as a dumbed-down casual mainstream hackn'slash action game while pretending it's still a RPG, and as such we're limiting the amount of role-play you can do with your characters.

Urgh, never mind. Basically, it boils down to "we're happy with what we're doing and we ain't changing it back. u mad?". Maybe it's just PR and there's actually a possibility that they'll revert the franchise's denaturation, but I won't hold my breath.

Hopefully, they will go back to DA:O for DA3.  DA2 was a failure and sales have dropped off a cliff.

Modifié par Frybread76, 01 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Level Designer?

must have been tough to copy and past the same maps over and over.

they did so artfully. 

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Oopsieoops wrote...

"A: Everyone were very enthusiastic about creating a game which will be
more accessible for a wider audience, without giving up the core
components of the original game, while trying to add to the player pool
for this game those people who felt intimidated by elements of DAO -
such as the UI.
This is especially true for the console version of
DA2 - we wanted to make the game more responsive and fun when you use a
controller."
IOW: We want to remake DA as a dumbed-down casual mainstream hackn'slash   action game while pretending it's still a RPG. Also, console users will be all we care about from now on.

"In this game we wanted to tell a specific story, more personal. A
talking hero is a very strong thing and so is a specific man with a
history and family of his own. This is a different approach which meant
we had to give up the freedom of the character designs. The team
believes that overall this approach is better and developes the genre
towards more interesting directions."
IOW: We want to remake DA as a dumbed-down casual mainstream hackn'slash action game while pretending it's still a RPG, and as such we're limiting the amount of role-play you can do with your characters.

Urgh, never mind. Basically, it boils down to "we're happy with what we're doing and we ain't changing it back. u mad?". Maybe it's just PR and there's actually a possibility that they'll revert the franchise's denaturation, but I won't hold my breath.

i think there must be some debate inside the team... i imagine DLC would have been announced already if not. might be holding it back due to negativity. it's almost a month since the game released and not much has been said on that.

[neppakyo]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

i think there must be some debate inside the team... i imagine DLC would have been announced already if not. might be holding it back due to negativity. it's almost a month since the game released and not much has been said on that.

Too busy trying to fix the massive amount of bugs and game breaking bugs.

[Aether99]

Korusus wrote...

OPini wrote...



Q: Could prolonging development time for the game result in a better variety within the city itself and avoiding reused areas, as seen in the game?

A: Obviously, more time would enable more areas and bigger variation. Honestly, we did not expect this to be such a big deal, but it seems the subject gave rise to a significant number of complaints by both critics and players alike. We listen to the reviews and we will try to address the issue in future games.

Not possible.  There's no way they didn't know this would be a huge glaring flaw.  I refuse to believe they're that obtuse.

i agree, i actually wanted to laugh when i read that one, is this guy new to level design?

[Sable Phoenix]

Everything about this interview continues with the trend of the DA2 development team saying "Yes, we realize that most players don't like our design decisions in X area, but that's just because they're stupid, our way really is a whole lot better." It's like listening to a bunch of left-wing politicians: "You can't be trusted to make your own decisions, so we're going to force you to do things our way because we know better than you how to run your own life."  Or in this case, how to have fun in a game.  I find this attitude even more distressing than the obvious rush job that EA forced on them.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 avril 2011 - 07:49 .

[astrallite]

DA2's line of evolution: Marines shooting fireballs in Call of Duty

[Cyocide]

It's like listening to a bunch of left-wing politicians: "You can't be trusted to make your own decisions

God I hate that this has veered into politics but: Really? You find the left to be more over-bearing than the right? I find them both to be corporate shills, TBH, but at least on the left no one's telling women what medical procedures are available to them.

Regardless, I really just came here cuz I saw your Avatar from the main page and I wanted to say - God its mesmerizing. I love it.