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Interview with DA2 lead level designer


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#126
orbit991

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YohkoOhno wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I call bull****.  There is a huge number of games out there where there is massive numbers of people in areas. Hell, N64 and Ocarina of Time had about the same amount of people in areas...

Not even going to mention Assassins Creed, GTA, Mafia 2...oh wait...


It's possible Bioware doesn't have as good an engine as they'd like, or that to make it work on consoles they had to sacrifice a lot.  

Even the people making competing games like The Witcher 2 have said that they had to build a new engine to be optimized for the needs of an RPG.  While Assassin's Creed 2 has a lot of people, there are very limited reactions and not a lot of dynamic scripting involved.



Have to disagree. I just started playing AC2 brotherhood and that city is absolutelly alive. People sweep, bang on wood with hammers, dance around, work the fields, it felt like there were a hundred different animations, never mind their reactons when you bump them, from a few words to a fist fight, or running away during your fights with guards. The scripting is fantastic, detailed and very unpredictable when multiple conflicts occur.

Modifié par orbit991, 23 mars 2011 - 03:02 .


#127
MonkeyLungs

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Phaedros wrote...


Yes, this is completely due to technical limitation. We had more people crowding the streets in early stages of development but we had to cut the number to be able to cope with the limitations of game consoles


This explains a lot.  About a lot... :sick:

Many thanks OP, excellent post!


I think it is very dishonest and also divisive to blame their own shortcomings on the consoles they chose to develop for. It is so obviously a problem with BIOWARE'S coding and BIOWARE'S engine. All this does is serve to widen the divide between PC and console users and shift the blame. Not fair and that interviewer should have called him on it.

#128
BiowareRoKKKs

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Whahhhat are yew guyz talkking abouts? BIOWARE isnt racist or scandolous!! Theyz did the customer right by makings the da2!!! It didn't stampeede on our loyalty to the first gaym come on peoples. This franchise is going places whenz it says that theyz didn't expect repeating the samez 4 dungeooooOOns 190000 times to be makings the people angry YOU GUYZ SHOULDS BELEIVE THEM. This isn't obviously bs. You guys don't like the game then return it.....oh wait...

#129
Nick Fox

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The more I read what this team from BW has to say about the game, the more convinced I get that they have seriously lost it. Seriously and are in complete denial and dellusional.
Its getting scary, but very funny at the same time.

Can you hear the music from Twilightzone.....na na na na.....?

This is far beyond driven to madness, ha ha ha.
Cant wait for the next one (interview), bring it on!!


Image IPB

Modifié par Nick Fox, 23 mars 2011 - 04:03 .


#130
astrallite

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Yaron Jacobs's job security is going to be in question after tonight.

#131
Cyn165

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I can understand the reasoning behind some of the design elements, and at first I felt that the "wave of enemies" feature was dynamic and interesting. My opinion began to change somewhat after I realized that virtually every combat sequence in the game was going to involve enemies spawning out of nowhere at one or more fairly predictable intervals.

I don't mind enemies spawning in MMORPGs (you necessarily have to accept a limited degree of immersion in those kinds of games), but the spawning mechanic in DA2 did feel somewhat contrived because of its frequency and general implausibility. I tried, but I can't accept that every hostile NPC in the game is a 30th lvl ninja with magical spawning powers such as descending from ropes from the sky or flat out materializing into thin air near the edge of the screen.

In short, I hope DA3 will implement a marginally more realistic combat system that retains some of the improvements in DA2 (e.g. better animations, a more solid feel). There were some very good story elements in this game, but the design encouraged a lot of metagaming. Having active combat and clear direction is in some cases great, but in the end the sense of discovery was marginalized in favor of establishing a grocery list of tasks to be accomplished.

#132
BiowareRoKKKs

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Also, I beleive the threads are being trimmed, and employees are "puppeting" themselves into the forums with different user names because some of the things being said....anyone who plays the game could not possibly believe it isn't buggier than sin, a rip-off, and an obvious money grab insult to anyone who like(d)s Bioware.

Da2 act1= Don't be poor. This whole act you don't even see any real story and lets be honest...The only 3 choices you have in the game is Serious,funny,mad? I really love hearing the same one-liners from anyone of the characters. The battles are boring button mashers. After 30 minutes into the game I see nothing new. Nothing changes. All that time preparing for the conclusion to act 1 (deep roads) and it lasts ten minutes. 10+ hours of horrible gaming=ten minutes of mediocre gaming is bioware's motto in the game. For every ten hours you put into this game we will give you ten minutes of mediocre gameplay.

Act2= Much more of the same except add boring templar mage story into the mix with even worse bugs. GOD HELP YOU IF YOU DO A BITTER PILL QUEST WRONG SAVE OFTEN.


Act3= Terrible ending with the same exact dungeon driving you insane. It's the worst act in the game.

Overall I wouldn't recomend this game to anyone. I wouldn't let my worst enemy buy it for a dollar in a garage sale. It is by far the worst game I have ever played.

#133
petipas1414

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Good interview... I'm glad they threw him some curveballs. I think the Blood Mage question caught him off guard lol

#134
BiowareRoKKKs

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Sandmanifest wrote...

6 Is stcky wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Unsurprisingly, racial slurs are not acceptable on these forums.


I think you shouldn't be a moderator. You are an idiot.


Your own stupidity impresses me.

Yea I knew what would happen... It wasn't a racist comment though and I thought it was dumb that he should be banned. BTW BIOWARE RO-KKK-S. And by rokkks I mean they are a radical group who hate the people who support them:fans. I WANT A FORMAL APOLOGY FOR DRAGON AGE 2 BIOWARE YOU HEAR ME? I want my money back. I want a serious humbling apology stating that dragon age 2 wasn't anything more than a money grab and that it will never again happen. HELL, ONE sorry would do. You guys are seriously unapologetic for this garbage? FOR SHAME

#135
MonkeyLungs

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Having to be careful how you engage in combat due to potential witnesses, even if you got attacked, could really open up some fun gameplay possibilities too.

#136
BiowareRoKKKs

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MonkeyLungs wrote...

Having to be careful how you engage in combat due to potential witnesses, even if you got attacked, could really open up some fun gameplay possibilities too.


You mean like the thing that happened in da1 but disappeared in da2?

#137
Gatt9

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BiowareRoKKKs wrote...

Also, I beleive the threads are being trimmed, and employees are "puppeting" themselves into the forums with different user names because some of the things being said....anyone who plays the game could not possibly believe it isn't buggier than sin, a rip-off, and an obvious money grab insult to anyone who like(d)s Bioware.


I wouldn't say that.  You've got a whole generation of people at this point that think that Oblivion is an RPG.  Honestly,  you've got at least two whole generations that cannot remember a time when the industry was diversified and games were made because they were good ideas,  instead of getting green-lit because they had enough buzz-words.

The industry is in such dire straights they've been doing nothing but releasing cookie-cutter games and endless sequels instead of great games,  and you've got a ton of people who've literally grown up thinking that's the way it should be.

So it really isn't surprising that they defend things like this,  they've literally never seen anything else. 

Which is part of the reason the industry has dug itself into an impending crash.  These people didn't grow up with myriad games to try,  they grew up with every release being some version of Doom,  Warcraft,  or Tomb Raider.  No reason for them to explore new experiences,  no different games to look for,  just those 3 games all the time.  So when they get bored of those 3 games and walk away,  because there's nothing else to do here anymore,  the Industry has only itself to blame.

#138
Otterwarden

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City6 wrote...

scpulley wrote...

*facepalm again* Wow.....see this is why I'm scared if they talk about a DA game anytime soon. I REALLY hope this isn't them trying to say 'We got bored writing good games and rolling around in our piles of money so we decided to try making lousy games in the name of creative expression'.



It's odd..... you'd think it would be the other way around: a company moving from mindless hack-and-slash to the complex depth of games like the BG series and PS: Torment, if "freedom of expression" is the issue.


If Bioware has had a secret creative expression bubbling up inside and the result is DA2, apparently their secret desires are for bland and beige. All the wit and genius was clearly boring them.

So true. Yet maybe they are saying that they would rather make movies.  That they want to get away from having to tie up all the logic threads that must be present if you give the audience choice.  The more they can simplify the choices the closer they come to a consensus script.  Isn't ME going to be a movie?

http://movies.ign.co.../1092495p1.html

From what I'm reading between the lines this is the direction they want to take and RP is holding them back.

#139
Mantaal

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Q: Why is it no longer possible to manage your party's gear? Why is it that an armor worn by Hawke cannot be given to other characters?

A: There are many benefits of keeping a unique appearance for the companions: it gives them presence during cutscenes and dialogues and it's even useful during combat - they're easier to tell apart that way. I know it limits the possible customization but there are still many other elements you can upgrade such as weapons, accessories and even upgrade the main armor's stats.


Lol... just.. well .. lol.

many benefits? What the...? 

Its like i would say "there are many benefits if someone kicks you in the nuts!" 

#140
Sacred_Fantasy

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A: In this game we wanted to tell a specific story, more personal. A talking hero is a very strong thing and so is a specific man with a history and family of his own. This is a different approach which meant we had to give up the freedom of the character designs. The team believes that overall this approach is better and developes the genre towards more interesting directions.

But I don't want you to tell me your story. If I want the story, I could buy novels or rent movies which are more cheaper. I want the freedom to shape my own story within context of your own. DA O allow me to do this with limited choices. DA 2 doesn't give any choices at all. One race, one background, and one solution only. I hate that. I don't want to do the same thing over and over and over and over again.

Well your team's belief is wrong..... for me. I don't connect to Hawke because he's Varric's main character and alive talking puppet.  His story is nothing personal to me because you fail to convince me that I am Hawke. Your approach of third person narrative does the opposite effect. Instead of bringing me closer to protagonist  like Hawke, you actually separate him from me and effectively blocking my path to enter his body to see the world through his eyes. It's not interesting. It's kick me out of the world. And I don't appreciate it. 

A: This time we tried a different approach - enable the players to investigate only one main area, which has more depth and responsiveness. You can compare it to GTA game, where you are always in the same city, or maybe even compare it to Assassin's Creed to a certain degree. The player gets the chance to learn about the history, characters and secrets of one place instead of visiting a place briefly once before moving on to the next destination in his journey. It also enables a story arc which has a central link - a lot of things happen during the same time and not a long and flat timeline of events.

I don't role-play GTA. In GTA I just crash cars on roads, become mindless killer who shoot anyone on street and I don't have purpose but I love the freedom to explore the bustling city and hooked myself with the prostitutes . DA 2 don't have large crowd of peoples for me to kill and cars to crash on roads. Nor does any clubs and bars to enjoy the service of fine women. DA 2's only brothel fill with one gay elf and few female elves. So far I haven't see any human female prostitute at all. When I enter the brothel, I don't feel exciting. The atmosphere is boring and the females are like yikess! Surely you don't expect me to complain on that too because I don't recall DA 2 to be designed in that way.

And Assassin Creed? It's a bad comparison. I love the story and the mechanics. They are indeed amazing. But I hate fixed characters. I've tried in vain to role-play fixed characters RPG like Assassin Creed, Alpha Protocol, Vampire Masquerade:Bloodline and others. But I can't. I hate to pretend to be someone else. It completely kill my immersion to be inside the world and I can't personally attached to such characters. I can't stand that for more than 15 minutes. I have more tolerance for non RPG but that because I don't expect to role-play such games like GTA and Counter Strike.  

A: Yes, this is completely due to technical limitation. We had more people crowding the streets in early stages of development but we had to cut the number to be able to cope with the limitations of game consoles and low-end computers.

Too bad. Your grand idea to emulate GTA's city atmosphere fail then.

A: Obviously, more time would enable more areas and bigger variation. Honestly, we did not expect this to be such a big deal, but it seems the subject gave rise to a significant number of complaints by both critics and players alike. We listen to the reviews and we will try to address the issue in future games.

Yes do that please.

A: Part of the tactical game is adapting to changes. The waves might feel different, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. I do not agree with those that think the wave pattern is terrible as of itself, but I do agree that there are things it's possible to do in order to improve the use of the waves. We can use them less often and improve the breeding mechanic, for instance. All in all I think the waves are an excellent addition to the game.

Well the wave certainly disrupt any attempt for strategically positioning team members since the waves tend to appear out of nowhere.  

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

Voltron, Gundam and Power Rangers are interesting. You could use them to make the game more fun too. Oh wait, the Qunari has access to gunpowder, why don't you create AK47, Sniper Rifles, Grenades, Submachine Guns etc..? You want the CoD, right?

No one bold enough? Are you sure? The guards seem bold enough to block the hero's entry to Kirkwall in Prologue. And the former Guard Captain seem bold enough to imprison Aveline and her Fereldan's accomplices
simply because she mess up the with patrol roster. 

A: There are many benefits of keeping a unique appearance for the companions: it gives them presence during cutscenes and dialogues and it's even useful during combat - they're easier to tell apart that way. I know it limits the possible customization but there are still many other elements you can upgrade such as weapons, accessories and even upgrade the main armor's stats.

Unique appearance is boring. I insist on customizing my companions armor.  I don't want to be bored by the same companion's look for 20-50 hours of my gameplay. 

Wait. Did you say it's hard to tell the differences between Anders and Merril during combat? or Isabella and Aveline?

A: The DLCs have been very popular. We broke all kinds of inner records at EA in this area. Of course DLCs are now an integral part of the game. We want players to continue enjoying the game as long as possible and DLC is the best way to achieve this goal.

 
I would certainly continue enjoying the game as long as possible if I'm inside the world, to feel what it's like to be a champion and to personally meddle the political affair. But you fail to make me believe that I am that Champion of Kirkwall. Instead, you make me see your own designed character called Hawke. Therefore, I why should I pay more for your character? I am not interested with your character. I am only interested with me and my character. I want to live inside the fantasy that you loosely designed for me. Until you archive that, I refuse to spend more money on your DLCs.

Edit:BB Code error

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 23 mars 2011 - 04:07 .


#141
BiowareRoKKKs

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Mantaal wrote...



Q: Why is it no longer possible to manage your party's gear? Why is it that an armor worn by Hawke cannot be given to other characters?

A: There are many benefits of keeping a unique appearance for the companions: it gives them presence during cutscenes and dialogues and it's even useful during combat - they're easier to tell apart that way. I know it limits the possible customization but there are still many other elements you can upgrade such as weapons, accessories and even upgrade the main armor's stats.


Lol... just.. well .. lol.

many benefits? What the...? 

Its like i would say "there are many benefits if someone kicks you in the nuts!" 


Yea anyone who buys this as truth is a social ostrich. Why would he even bother with this? all I hear is... "yadda yadda lame excuse...let me lie to your face...How rediculous can I be....You guys are too dumb to recognize faces when they have different clothes on? yea! That was awesome! I'm going to ****** to that later".

#142
Yalision

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Galad22 wrote...

A: Part of the tactical game is adapting to changes. The waves might feel different, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. I do not agree with those that think the wave pattern is terrible as of itself, but I do agree that there are things it's possible to do in order to improve the use of the waves. We can use them less often and improve the breeding mechanic, for instance. All in all I think the waves are an excellent addition to the game.


This is my biggest issue. They can't honestly think this was excellent addition.

Terrible is exactly what this is.


Please, dear Andraste Bioware, let this be a sick joke. The waves was one of the worst ideas implemented into the game. It basically was a glaring flaw that said "we don't have the time to preposition enemies with the deadline we've been given, so we'll just have them... appear...". Do away with the random spawning, it is terrible, it is the WRONG decision, and everyone is telling you this, critics and fans alike.

#143
The Brigand

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Mantaal wrote...



Q: Why is it no longer possible to manage your party's gear? Why is it that an armor worn by Hawke cannot be given to other characters?

A: There are many benefits of keeping a unique appearance for the companions: it gives them presence during cutscenes and dialogues and it's even useful during combat - they're easier to tell apart that way. I know it limits the possible customization but there are still many other elements you can upgrade such as weapons, accessories and even upgrade the main armor's stats.


Lol... just.. well .. lol.

many benefits? What the...? 

Its like i would say "there are many benefits if someone kicks you in the nuts!" 


You know what I think is hilarious about the whole "Can't equip my party members" thing?

The easiest way out here would've been to just let players equip whatever they darn well please on their party companions while still keeping their unique appearances. Yeah, it's a bit of a copout, but it's still better than having 2/3rds of your looted equipment become vendor trash just because nobody in your party will touch it.

#144
Otterwarden

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Whammo wrote...

The game was overall simplified to appeal to a wider audience. That is called dumbing down.

And streamline is a marketing buzz word. So you can't criticise someone for calling something dumbed down and defend it by calling it streamlined.


Agree, one and same, and at least one reviewer was willing to be frank about the topic:

http://worthplaying....reviews/80426/ 
It isn't so much consolitis that consigned the sequel to the pit of disappointment for me, nor is it crying over PC-flavored milk because it doesn't try to harness what the platform is capable of doing. Instead, the wholesale changes reflect a deeper problem in assuming that your audience isn't as smart as it was to enjoy the first game. It makes the only answer that of dumbing down the sharp edges in an effort to appeal to a wider audience.Change by itself isn't a bad thing, but there is a thin line between streamlining a game to make it more playable — e.g., the interface, improvements to inventory handling, party management or sharpening the underlying technology — and in making changes that simply insult your audience's intelligence. This is the  same audience — on both consoles and PCs — that relished learning how Origin's combat system worked, pored over each skill tree in planning their characters, and replayed it over and over again. It wasn't perfect, but at the same time, it didn't scare enough people away to make it seem like a tragic mistake.


Anyway, the most creative encapsulation of this criticism is in the motivational threads on page 7.  Chapeau to the artist.

http://social.biowar...1/index/6594400

NooB AGE has arrived!

Modifié par Otterwarden, 23 mars 2011 - 04:58 .


#145
asaiasai

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dheer wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
My fear is they read all the criticisms and simply take things in an even more "streamlined," unapologetic action game direction. Which would be their right to do, but I don't know who they'd be making that sort of game for, besides the same mythical mainstream audience they seemingly designed DA2 for.

Indeed.

My other fear is they'll see sales similar to Origins and see that as confirmation that their poor decisions in design were right. All the while, it sells decently because of the strength of the first game.


It is why after following game development on these boards and after playing the demo, that i cancelled my pre order. I really hate to say this, i mean i am really sad that it would come to this but i really hope DA2 flopps badly. I really wanted DA2 to be epic, i guess i should have been more specific in that by epic i meant good, not epic fail. Anyway they will either learn from this mistake or repeat it with DA3 in either case there will be no more Pre orders from this PC gamer and all Bioware titles will be subject to serious scrutiny. You burned me with Mass Effect 2 after delivering a spectacular Mass Effect, and almost got me with DA2 after a spectacular DAO, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Asai

#146
MonkeyLungs

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The Brigand wrote...

Mantaal wrote...



Q: Why is it no longer possible to manage your party's gear? Why is it that an armor worn by Hawke cannot be given to other characters?

A: There are many benefits of keeping a unique appearance for the companions: it gives them presence during cutscenes and dialogues and it's even useful during combat - they're easier to tell apart that way. I know it limits the possible customization but there are still many other elements you can upgrade such as weapons, accessories and even upgrade the main armor's stats.


Lol... just.. well .. lol.

many benefits? What the...? 

Its like i would say "there are many benefits if someone kicks you in the nuts!" 


You know what I think is hilarious about the whole "Can't equip my party members" thing?

The easiest way out here would've been to just let players equip whatever they darn well please on their party companions while still keeping their unique appearances. Yeah, it's a bit of a copout, but it's still better than having 2/3rds of your looted equipment become vendor trash just because nobody in your party will touch it.


This is a great point. There is also another even more fulfilling way. Any piece of armor can have a specific look determined by who is wearing it. This is done in other games, even in the action-rpg Torchlight. The same piece of armor worn by a Destroyer (big beefy male) appears different on the Vanquisher (slim female). Torchlight is a budget PC game that has been recently ported to Xbox 360 as an Xbox Live arcade title.

This way each character could retain their individualism and also be able to use all kinds of different armors throughout the game.

The solution that I just pointed out is the kind of standard we as gamers should hold Bioware to.

Why does Bioware have to cut so many corners anyway? Are they going broke? Is their game engine too difficult for their team to work with? I really don't understand why Bioware doesn't try to expand their gameplay systems instead of shrinking them.

#147
Coldest

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MonkeyLungs wrote...

The Brigand wrote...

Mantaal wrote...



Q: Why is it no longer possible to manage your party's gear? Why is it that an armor worn by Hawke cannot be given to other characters?

A: There are many benefits of keeping a unique appearance for the companions: it gives them presence during cutscenes and dialogues and it's even useful during combat - they're easier to tell apart that way. I know it limits the possible customization but there are still many other elements you can upgrade such as weapons, accessories and even upgrade the main armor's stats.


Lol... just.. well .. lol.

many benefits? What the...? 

Its like i would say "there are many benefits if someone kicks you in the nuts!" 


You know what I think is hilarious about the whole "Can't equip my party members" thing?

The easiest way out here would've been to just let players equip whatever they darn well please on their party companions while still keeping their unique appearances. Yeah, it's a bit of a copout, but it's still better than having 2/3rds of your looted equipment become vendor trash just because nobody in your party will touch it.


This is a great point. There is also another even more fulfilling way. Any piece of armor can have a specific look determined by who is wearing it. This is done in other games, even in the action-rpg Torchlight. The same piece of armor worn by a Destroyer (big beefy male) appears different on the Vanquisher (slim female). Torchlight is a budget PC game that has been recently ported to Xbox 360 as an Xbox Live arcade title.

This way each character could retain their individualism and also be able to use all kinds of different armors throughout the game.

The solution that I just pointed out is the kind of standard we as gamers should hold Bioware to.

Why does Bioware have to cut so many corners anyway? Are they going broke? Is their game engine too difficult for their team to work with? I really don't understand why Bioware doesn't try to expand their gameplay systems instead of shrinking them.

Because going by the success of Origins people would buy/pre-order DA2 anyway even if they developed it for 6 years or 6 months.

#148
TaHol

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"A: Yes, this is completely due to technical limitation. We had more
people crowding the streets in early stages of development but we had to
cut the number to be able to cope with the limitations of game consoles
and low-end computers."

Assassins Creed anyone? There you can CHOOSE how much you want to have people bumping at you in every corner. And even little is a lot more than in DA2. I can't stand when these people defend their poor performance in game design by saying that something was difficult to do. Yet it is done in several other games, and earlier. How about getting a better engine? Lyrium seems to be an old hag in wheelchair. If you can't make a better engine, get a licence to better one.

#149
TwistedComplex

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Oh, god

The more i read Dragon Age interviews the more i think Bioware should just let the game developing be left to Bioware Montreal

All they've done is ****** off a whole lot of fans and hurt the sales of SWTOR and ME3

Modifié par TwistedComplex, 23 mars 2011 - 05:57 .


#150
optimates0193

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I've been a fan of Bioware for a long, long time and I love their games, but my God, they need to stop doing these interviews. When I read them, it just astounds me how purposely obtuse the people in charge are to the flaws of the game and it really kills my enthusiasm for the company.

The interviews scare me more than anything else. I really hope that the designers are just spouting PR talk and marketing buzzwords in a misguided attempt to salvage the situation, because if they believe what they're actually saying, it's only going to get worse.

At least in this interview, the designer was a bit more straight up. It's clear that Bioware was trying to appeal to EVERYONE. I can't say I really blame them. They want to make money and they feel that's the best way to do it. The problem is that trying to cater to every group just doesn't work. What you end up with is a flavorless mush that only the most hardcore Bioware fans will enjoy. RPG's are inherently complex; there's just no way to simplify them enough to appeal to every audience while maintaining the soul of the genre. And really, that is this game's biggest problem - it has no soul, that spark which makes you care about the world and want to play just a little bit longer.

I pre-ordered DA:O. I pre-ordered DA:2. I will NOT be pre-ordering DA:3.