390 réponses à ce sujet

[Monsteroids]

OriginalTibs wrote...

They likely didn't think recycling lairs would be a big deal because they overestimated the players, imagining they would be more interested in the story than the furnishings.

This would't surprise me, considering the game hinges on what the player does with Hawke's personality and interactions. Hyperfocused to the point of a strange myopic game experience for some.

I liked it a lot, but ...yeah. I can totally see that being the case.

Modifié par Monsteroids, 23 mars 2011 - 02:30 .

[_Aine_]

Interesting, thank you for the translation.

[Taura-Tierno]

Everyone seems to agree about the reuse of environments and how lousy that was, but ...

You know there are plenty of people who actually enjoy the unique outfits, right? And that, had they scrapped the Blood Mage because there was no perfectly logical way to implement it (like the Warden in DA:O), I'd bet we'd have heard tons of rants about how they should've found a way to do just that, because "it should be our choice if Hawke wants to be a blood mage or not".

And whether or not it'd be easy to manage tons of people in the city from a technical perspective ... depends on how the characters are handled technically. Doesn't feel unlikely that you can't have huge throngs of people everywhere. Would've been nice with a bit more, though ...

[upsettingshorts]

Shinimas wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

They likely didn't think recycling lairs would be a big deal because they overestimated the players, imagining they would be more interested in the story than the furnishings.

Please tell me you aren't serious, I need to keep at least some faith in humanity.

It reinforces my faith in humanity when they realize that its possible for reasonable people to arrive at different conclusions given the same data and not automatically presume that disagreements stem from ignorance or stupidity.

Needless to say, reacting to OriginalTibs observation in such a way doesn't do much for that particular cause.

[Delixe]

You know there are plenty of people who actually enjoy the unique outfits, right? And that, had they scrapped the Blood Mage because there was no perfectly logical way to implement it (like the Warden in DA:O), I'd bet we'd have heard tons of rants about how they should've found a way to do just that, because "it should be our choice if Hawke wants to be a blood mage or not".

And whether or not it'd be easy to manage tons of people in the city from a technical perspective ... depends on how the characters are handled technically. Doesn't feel unlikely that you can't have huge throngs of people everywhere. Would've been nice with a bit more, though ...

- People like the individual look but they also want the customization. Bioware removed one to provide the other. Given time Bioware could easily have given characters an individual look while still allowing you to change their armor. The capability is clearly there as the Champion Armor looks different depending on if Hawke is Warrior, Rogue or Mage but evidently it wasn't a high priority so it was restricted to Hawke.

- No one is arguing the point that Hawke should have the option of using Blood Magic but it's the fact Hawke and chums suffer no penalty for doing it. You can do it right in front of a Templar and they won't even recognise you are a mage, let alone a Blood Mage. They went way overboard with the whole Blood Mages are bad thing and as a consequence it makes it incredible that Hawke can get away with doing it anywhere he likes.

[thebatmanreborn]

Lord Coake wrote...

Nice. At least now we know why Kirkwall is a ghost town. Poor consoles can't keep up.

Well, that and if the average CoD twitcher ran into a crowd in game, they'd complain about not being able to butcher it for achievement points.

Then what is Bioware's excuse going to be when Elder Scrolls V Skyrim and Battlefield 3 come out?  Or what about what Epc showed the 360 is capable of with its unvieling of next generation graphics at the Game Developers Conference a couple months ago?  Even so, I would have bought it on the PC if they would have made it for a highend PC.  Still, Crysis 2 have proven the consoles are capable of great graphics, gameplay, and story.  No, its not the limitations of game consoles.  It's more of a cutting corners thing.    

[Taura-Tierno]

Delixe wrote...

You know there are plenty of people who actually enjoy the unique outfits, right? And that, had they scrapped the Blood Mage because there was no perfectly logical way to implement it (like the Warden in DA:O), I'd bet we'd have heard tons of rants about how they should've found a way to do just that, because "it should be our choice if Hawke wants to be a blood mage or not".

And whether or not it'd be easy to manage tons of people in the city from a technical perspective ... depends on how the characters are handled technically. Doesn't feel unlikely that you can't have huge throngs of people everywhere. Would've been nice with a bit more, though ...

- People like the individual look but they also want the customization. Bioware removed one to provide the other. Given time Bioware could easily have given characters an individual look while still allowing you to change their armor. The capability is clearly there as the Champion Armor looks different depending on if Hawke is Warrior, Rogue or Mage but evidently it wasn't a high priority so it was restricted to Hawke.

- No one is arguing the point that Hawke should have the option of using Blood Magic but it's the fact Hawke and chums suffer no penalty for doing it. You can do it right in front of a Templar and they won't even recognise you are a mage, let alone a Blood Mage. They went way overboard with the whole Blood Mages are bad thing and as a consequence it makes it incredible that Hawke can get away with doing it anywhere he likes.

True. Having every piece of armor look unique on every character would've been freakishly awesome. The big "but" though, is that I assume it would've taken quite some time to design that abundance of differently-looking armor. What would they have scrapped instead? Made the weapons look bland (because the weapons look awesome, I think, and come in a great variety of appearance)? Cut down even more on the different area designs? There's always a trade-off. Unless you want the game in development for enternity ...

Having armors that look unique on every character would surely have been a big plus, but I don't see the lack of it as a negative. Having the fixed, unique armor sets is 10 times better than the bland, generic armor you equipped companions with in DA:O. 

About the Blood Mage thing, it's pretty much a "meh" for me. Any reaction would have to have been freakishly extreme. I mean, the Templars would've hunted Hawke down, Champion or not. Especially at the start of the game, when he was a nobody. There's no way he could've survived in the city, and he had no powerful allies to hide behind. And even the general population hates blood mages, so really, it would've been one hell of a penalty without hiding behind the Wardens (or something similar). Just a minor remark or some random extra battle because of it would've felt just as bad. 

Modifié par Taura-Tierno, 23 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[DeathStride]

@Opini: Many thanks for posting and translating this article

[MonkeyLungs]

Lord Coake wrote...

Nice. At least now we know why Kirkwall is a ghost town. Poor consoles can't keep up.

Poor Bioware engine just can't do things other game engnies can and also produces bland environments.

Well, that and if the average CoD twitcher ran into a crowd in game, they'd complain about not being able to butcher it for achievement points.

Fixed.

It isn't the consoles fault. For that developer to say that shows how unthoughtful (and probably uncreative) he is. In his same interview he mentions 2 games with far more area to explore, open worlds, tons of NPC's that can react in far more ways than any NPC ever has in any Bioware game EVER.

[thebatmanreborn]

Ashr4m wrote...

thebatmanreborn wrote...

Then what is Bioware's excuse going to be when Elder Scrolls V Skyrim and Battlefield 3 come out?  Or what about what Epc showed the 360 is capable of with its unvieling of next generation graphics at the Game Developers Conference a couple months ago?

Console gamers, reality seems to be no issue ... (it helps to read texts beside tech-demos you watch)

Yet i have to admit at least on the level of graphics used in DA2 it should have been no problem with an optimized console-engine etc. (especially since the maps are rather small and the npcs are rather low-poly not to mention dont have much AI either)

Still honestly first of al wtf is "next gen" and why would anyone think that 360/PS3 will get way better graphics, your consoles are what people call fossils from an ancient time.  Maybe you havent realized that by now but because of consoles the best looking game is still a game from 2007. (Crysis, Crysis 2 has nice new lightning but looses in every other aspect not to mention against crysis with visual mods)

Yes, I play games on a console because I do film editing, graphic design, and writing on a PC.  I don't feel like playing games on the thing I do work on.  That's just my opinion.  Although I will likely pick up Witcher 2 on the PC.  
As for reality being no issue for poor pitiful me, well, there are currently 40 million plus 360 users, 38 million plus ps3 users, 50 million plus wii users, 130 million plus DS purchasers, and who knows how many 3ds and psp gamers.  The bulk of the interactive entertainment industry is built upon "console" gamers, not PC gamers.  That is a simple reality.  Console gaming is where the money is.  It's just a fact.  In an industry that is struggling during a recision, this is becoming even more apparent.  Outside of cash hog MMO's, PC games do not do as well as console games.  Hence, Call of Duty Black Ops shattering sales records and Halo Reach taking in $200 million opening weekend or GTA IV selling nearly 20 million copies.  

This doesn't mean PC gaming is bad, its just a fact.  People like me who do work on the PC sometimes don't feel like playing games on the PC.  And, lots of folks don't feel like forking over all kinds of money all the time in a PC just to buy games.  It doesn't mean people who play games on consoles are "not in reality" or "dumb."  Many of us happen to be married college graduates who have well paid careers that just happen to enjoy games on consoles more.   

Anyway, if you had taken note of the GDC, they showed off incredibly highend graphics that are capable on the 360.  Is it outdated?  The technology is, of course, but it still has yet to be used to its full potential.  Games like Elder Scrolls V, Battlefield 3, L.A. Noire, and Crysis 2 are examples.  Why is this important?  What was the reason behind my original post?  Simple: if these companies can push the consoles to their limits, why couldn't Bioware?  It could not be because of the console's limitations as much as it was they were cutting corners.  

 

[MrWakka]

In this game we wanted to tell a specific story, more personal. A talking hero is a very strong thing and so is a specific man with a history and family of his own. This is a different approach which meant we had to give up the freedom of the character designs. The team believes that overall this approach is better and developes the genre towards more interesting directions.

Has anyone at BioWare played jrpgs, where you have a preset character, and nowadays is usually voiced? You know, the ones western rpgs trounced in popularity and sales...

[MonkeyLungs]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Everyone seems to agree about the reuse of environments and how lousy that was, but ...

You know there are plenty of people who actually enjoy the unique outfits, right? And that, had they scrapped the Blood Mage because there was no perfectly logical way to implement it (like the Warden in DA:O), I'd bet we'd have heard tons of rants about how they should've found a way to do just that, because "it should be our choice if Hawke wants to be a blood mage or not".

And whether or not it'd be easy to manage tons of people in the city from a technical perspective ... depends on how the characters are handled technically. Doesn't feel unlikely that you can't have huge throngs of people everywhere. Would've been nice with a bit more, though ...

I don't understand why people assume that to have unique companion armors and looks that you can't allow for equipping of looted armor items while playing the game. I explained earlier how to do it, it is done in other games.
There are perfectly logical ways to implement Hawke being a Blood Mage. Allowing him to be one while ignoring any ramifications for it is not the proper way.

The blood mage issue was weird and done badly in Origins as well and people complained. We could Wynn a Blood Mage??? Should not have been allowed. They hype up this Blood Mage stuff SO MUCH that for them to ignore the PC utilizing it is simply Bioware not being willing to create some believability in their games.

Further it totally cheapens the player's experience that wants to be a Blood Mage. How fun is it to choose the 'dark' specialization of Blood Magic only to not have to worry about it in any role playing sense at all? Way more fun to choose Blood Mage then deal with the secrecy you would have to invoke. Opens up for story elements with companions, with guards, with other mages, with potential blackmailers, with problems with demons (the more powerful the Blood Mage, the more powerful the conduit, etc. etc.).

People shouldn't defend cutting corners.

[Cyn165]

Mrwakka wrote...

In this game we wanted to tell a specific story, more personal. A talking hero is a very strong thing and so is a specific man with a history and family of his own. This is a different approach which meant we had to give up the freedom of the character designs. The team believes that overall this approach is better and developes the genre towards more interesting directions.

Has anyone at BioWare played jrpgs, where you have a preset character, and nowadays is usually voiced? You know, the ones western rpgs trounced in popularity and sales...

I think it really depends on the game.  Planescape: Torment is still my favorite example of how you can build a compelling game with amazing story and immersion by using a designated protagonist.  Granted, part of why that worked so well was the incredible flexibility not only in customizing his playstyle but also in sculpting his personality through dialog options (it helped that he was largely an amnesiac with potentially hundreds of years of life experience to draw on).

It can be done well with a focused narrative, and I did like the idea in this game.  The whole just didn't come together quite as strongly as it should have.

[StingingVelvet]

I'm as hardcore PC elitist as they come and even I recognize the "consoles can't do crowds" thing as complete BS.

[The Angry One]

Bad design is one thing, unrepentant bad design is quite another.
How anyone can sit there with a straight face and claim the Power Rangers enemy waves are a good thing, and that the constant reuse of the same areas "wouldn't be noticable" is beyond me.
Plus a lot of the tilesets look crap. The caves look fake, the interior Kirkwall walls are terrible, etc.

[OriginalTibs]

Shinimas wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

They likely didn't think recycling lairs would be a big deal because they overestimated the players, imagining they would be more interested in the story than the furnishings.

Please tell me you aren't serious, I need to keep at least some faith in humanity.

Well, okay: as someone rightly pointed out my perceptions don't justify such a judgement of my peers. Let's just say the devs somehow misjudged the importance some players would place on the decor.

Interior design is after all a priority among today's gaming public.

[cotheer]

The irony <_<

Anywho, the guy needs a loooooooong vacation forced upon him.

[Mr. Gerbz]

Q: Could prolonging development time for the game result in a better variety within the city itself and avoiding reused areas, as seen in the game?

A: Obviously, more time would enable more areas and bigger variation. Honestly, we did not expect this to be such a big deal, but it seems the subject gave rise to a significant number of complaints by both critics and players alike. We listen to the reviews and we will try to address the issue in future games.

How come, that an important triple A developer (consisting of a huge team) doesn't know this, but I do?
Do you guys ever play other games? Or listen to communities of your own and other studios' games?

Sigh. Simple stuff like this really makes me wonder why I'm not a rich, successful game designer yet. Probably because I have hardly any technical skills and not a good asskisser.

[Veracruz]

Interest reading. Thank you for sharing!

Enlightening and still "WTF with the dissociation between NPC looks and inner equipment".

[Captain Sassy Pants]

Everything he said made me angry.

Add this to pretty much everything Mike Laidlaw says, and this video interview and I believe that we all have due cause to weep for the future games to come from this company.

[Gamejudge]

"All in all I think the waves are an excellent addition to the game." - Yaron Jacobs


/cry

[Phazor58]

The DLCs have been very popular.

Popular =/= Good. Lots of people downloaded them, but they probably did so because they felt it was necessary to advance the story.

Modifié par Phazor58, 23 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[EccentricSage]

Lycidas wrote...

My summary:

Q: Why?

A: We were lazy and thought we would get away with it!

This is the best use of tl;dr I've ever seen.

[EccentricSage]

OriginalTibs wrote...

They likely didn't think recycling lairs would be a big deal because they overestimated the players, imagining they would be more interested in the story than the furnishings.

If all I want is a story, I'll read a ****ing book.  You realise rpgs are more than interactive movies, right?  Hence the 'g' in rpg?