People have been saying something to this effect for 2 years. I honestly doubt it with all the AAA titles that happen to be RPGs coming out this year.
Are RPGs evolving or dying?
Débuté par
Soilborn88
, mars 23 2011 01:22
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#27
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 02:32
Ruby Tabris
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Everything's dying out slowly. Except for greed, corruption and lust for power. Oh, and McDonald's! That's one mosquito that cannot be swat.
#28
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 02:33
Meltemph
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DungeonLord wrote...
RPGs are not dying. Bioware has just dropped the ball lately.
Check out Avernum and Geneforge for some great old school RPG titles with great stories and fleshed out characters.
http://www.spiderweb...rge5/index.html
The Witcher 2 is very promising as well. Gotta love it for not having ridiculous level scaling!
Like I said, unless it is very low budget indie, you just are not going to find a Arcnum or what not. Everyone right now is in love with realtime very actiony RPG's for combat. ES/FO3/TW2 and ect all are very action oriented. The only parts of the older school games that even stick is the RP with ES/FO and the story telling of TW/BW.
I don't know why, personally, so many people are happy with action oriented RPG's when RPG companies are so bad at it(at least compared to the action titles I play) but I guess as long as people have a paper doll or something similar to play with(eye candy) they are happy.
I didn't like DAO's combat that much, I like DA2's better, but that is not to say that DA2's combat is what I would call "good". ES/FO's combat is overtly simple and near completely twitch, but in a way that people who don't even play games much can breeze through it.
I jsut wish we had more SRPG's or turn based RPG's still being made by bigger companies. But the current market gets so giddy over ES/FO games, I just don't see that happening.
Modifié par Meltemph, 23 mars 2011 - 02:37 .
#29
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 02:43
Johnisreallycool
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It kills me to say it but they are doing nothing but dying. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fable, and to a point even Fallout games have all been "streamlined" to appeal to the casual gamer, which ultimately ruins the game. Yes, it's unfortunate how little we come across a good RPG these days. Oh well... that will all change when SKYRIM COMES OUT. YEEAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#30
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 02:44
AtreiyaN7
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If anyone's that upset about the state of RPG gaming, maybe they should buy themselves mourning clothes so that they'll be properly prepared for the genre's impending demise. Don't forget to get a nice wreath too. *sarcasm* I do find it amusing that while numerous people think Skyrim will be our collective salvation, the writer actually criticizes the freedom of choice and the classless system in Skyrim. *snort* Betrayal, really? People seem to think they're being betrayed no matter what direction a company goes.
The positive aspects of the change are obvious: players can choose to develop their own characters to possess their favorite abilities from every class. No longer will players choose to go the spell-caster route, only to find that they’re much weaker in hand-to-hand combat than they would like. A change we fully understand, since nothing is more frustrating than finding out that the class you’ve chosen is designed for a completely different game style than your own. Removing the distinctions nips the problem in the bud.
But we have to ask – is that still role-playing? While some might say that the removal of artificial classes gives players even more freedom to define the role they wish to play, others could argue that Bethesda has completely removed the roles themselves. We don’t even know ourselves if the change is for the better or worse, since it’s a safe bet that a majority of players will craft the exact same type of character for Skyrim.
It’s only natural for players to want the best of all worlds, but that in itself is somewhat of a betrayal of one of the role-playing genre’s main values. If a large number of protagonists possess the same strength with weapons and talent for magic, then the differences in each player’s campaign that distinguish RPGs from other more-linear genres will rest solely in player choices.
The positive aspects of the change are obvious: players can choose to develop their own characters to possess their favorite abilities from every class. No longer will players choose to go the spell-caster route, only to find that they’re much weaker in hand-to-hand combat than they would like. A change we fully understand, since nothing is more frustrating than finding out that the class you’ve chosen is designed for a completely different game style than your own. Removing the distinctions nips the problem in the bud.
But we have to ask – is that still role-playing? While some might say that the removal of artificial classes gives players even more freedom to define the role they wish to play, others could argue that Bethesda has completely removed the roles themselves. We don’t even know ourselves if the change is for the better or worse, since it’s a safe bet that a majority of players will craft the exact same type of character for Skyrim.
It’s only natural for players to want the best of all worlds, but that in itself is somewhat of a betrayal of one of the role-playing genre’s main values. If a large number of protagonists possess the same strength with weapons and talent for magic, then the differences in each player’s campaign that distinguish RPGs from other more-linear genres will rest solely in player choices.
Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 23 mars 2011 - 02:44 .
#31
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 02:48
Johnisreallycool
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Skyrim will be legend. Enough said.
#32
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 02:57
slimgrin
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It's a competent article and I like his take on the ME games. But it's incomplete without discussion of The Witcher, especially since he declares that Skyrim will be the RPG to preserve player choice. It was The Witcher that really exemplified this, and TW2 is bound to take it to another level. Story reactivity is basically the holy grail to CD red, whereas TES games are more about player freedom and exploration.
Also, he barely even touched on DA:O.
Also, he barely even touched on DA:O.
#33
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 03:07
Siansonea
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I find the nerdrage of the gaming community over the "purity" of the RPG archetype to be hilarious. Seriously, it's a framework, a skeleton, nothing more. Everything changes. I, for one, am please with the evolution of gaming.
#34
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 03:19
BiowarEA
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Yes...I think these two quotes exemplify the "progressive" devolution from RPG developers quite well:
Black Isle wrote:
What can change the nature of a man?
BioWare wrote:
Today, I am more than a man! Come! Felicitate me!
#35
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 03:24
Galad22
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Siansonea II wrote...
I find the nerdrage of the gaming community over the "purity" of the RPG archetype to be hilarious. Seriously, it's a framework, a skeleton, nothing more. Everything changes. I, for one, am please with the evolution of gaming.
Does evolution of gaming mean "less complex" to you?
If so that is fairly sad.
#37
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 03:31
Gatt9
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I feel the article is generally correct. I disagree on Salvation, IMO it's in Adventure Game territory, which is no surprise because Todd's been pushing that direction for years.
RPGs are essentially dead at the moment, Each new release is progressively worse. As the author states, the companies that formerly made RPGs like Bioware are now chasing the mass market.
Thankfully, the next 12 months will see real RPGs released, personally I expect Dead State to come out of nowhere and take everyone by surprise.
RPGs are essentially dead at the moment, Each new release is progressively worse. As the author states, the companies that formerly made RPGs like Bioware are now chasing the mass market.
Thankfully, the next 12 months will see real RPGs released, personally I expect Dead State to come out of nowhere and take everyone by surprise.
#38
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 03:31
BiowarEA
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RPG's used to be the sole domain of the geek, the nerd, the intelligent yet socially malformed basement-dweller who couldn't get enough of wargames, tactical simulations with some fantasy and sci-fi mixed in there. Now, it's dominated by the braindead X-Box clone army who wants nothing more to do with a good strategy game than they do with actually working hard for a living (I'm exaggerating, yes).
Until the landscape of computer gamers shifts back from being popular among the texting, Twittering, Facebooking, eyeliner-wearing, whining, drooling, moronic hipster ****got crowd to those of us who used to value actually applying our intellect into defeating our opponents in the game as opposed to mashing buttons to make them turn into 'dem phat lootz, RPGs will continue to devolve.
Until the landscape of computer gamers shifts back from being popular among the texting, Twittering, Facebooking, eyeliner-wearing, whining, drooling, moronic hipster ****got crowd to those of us who used to value actually applying our intellect into defeating our opponents in the game as opposed to mashing buttons to make them turn into 'dem phat lootz, RPGs will continue to devolve.
#39
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 03:51
MassEffect762
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Romantiq wrote...
Bioware's "rpgs" are definitely becoming dumbed down. Starting from Mass Effect 2. Love the game with all my heart but I don't consider it a good an rpg. More a duck n cover shooter.
+1
The story/telling, atmosphere and exploration all subpar pre-EA Bioware imo.
#40
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 06:00
Lunatic LK47
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Siansonea II wrote...
I find the nerdrage of the gaming community over the "purity" of the RPG archetype to be hilarious. Seriously, it's a framework, a skeleton, nothing more. Everything changes. I, for one, am please with the evolution of gaming.
This. I played a ROM of Earthbound and was semi-glad I didn't buy it for the Super NES because of how bull**** the behind-the-scenes factor is where everything was more reliant on the lucky "toss of the coin" than anything else, even if I grinded everyone to the max level.
#41
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 06:27
BeljoraDien
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A lot of really good replies here... I would +1 them, but it'd take all day.
Remember, death is an important part of evolution. BioWare may well go the way of the CoD/WOW crowd, but another company will pick up the mantle of our niche demands. I do find it strange and rather offensive that BW thinks it can appeal to a larger crowd while keeping its fanbase... Its fanbase loves it precisely because its games are so unlike all the market-researched crap we see stockpiled at the store. It's not going to keep its fanbase this way, so if they plan on capturing the CoD crowd, I hope they're prepared to match the 'quality' of those types of games (you may not like them, but they are well-made). The CoD crowd already have a wide variety of games to choose from.
Edit/Disclaimer: I don't think people who play CoD or WoW are stupid. There are hardworking people who like to relieve stress through shooters, and my favorite modern day philosopher even plays WoW. They're just looking for a very different experience than the one I'm looking for, so I do not want to see BW move in that direction when we already have so much trouble finding that kind of experience.
Remember, death is an important part of evolution. BioWare may well go the way of the CoD/WOW crowd, but another company will pick up the mantle of our niche demands. I do find it strange and rather offensive that BW thinks it can appeal to a larger crowd while keeping its fanbase... Its fanbase loves it precisely because its games are so unlike all the market-researched crap we see stockpiled at the store. It's not going to keep its fanbase this way, so if they plan on capturing the CoD crowd, I hope they're prepared to match the 'quality' of those types of games (you may not like them, but they are well-made). The CoD crowd already have a wide variety of games to choose from.
Edit/Disclaimer: I don't think people who play CoD or WoW are stupid. There are hardworking people who like to relieve stress through shooters, and my favorite modern day philosopher even plays WoW. They're just looking for a very different experience than the one I'm looking for, so I do not want to see BW move in that direction when we already have so much trouble finding that kind of experience.
Modifié par BeljoraDien, 23 mars 2011 - 06:33 .
#42
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 06:33
Warheadz
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Look at this video. It's supposed to represent what Microsoft thinks is the future of PC gaming.
Here.
Scared? You should be. But the fact is that the "casual" side of the market is stronger and bigger than ever, and most games will be changed/made so that they can fit this audience's needs. That's why streamlining and "dumbing down". Is happening. Games definitely aren't getting more complex.
This is why RPG's are suffering too. Everyone wants their share of the casual market, but for RPG's it is hard. RPG's are rather complex games when compared to other genres. You need to build character stats, skills, compare equipment, read, and so on. The only way RPG's can reach that audience is by, well, giving up some of these features. So, in my opinion, gaming in general is devolving.
But I don't think all hope is lost. In 10 years or so, the casual gaming market will, at least in part, join the group of "gamers" most of us belong in. And once we reach that stage, people will want something else than the casual experience gaming would have been offering for the past 7-8 years. That's when gaming, in general, can reach the stage that we can have games that are not for everybody. Just like in literary, there are books that are "hard to read", but for those that can read them they are extremely fulfilling experiences.
This is my vision where the industry is heading. During the upcoming years there will be less and less non-mainstream games and complex games. It's just a age we have to survive through.
/insane rant end.
Here.
Scared? You should be. But the fact is that the "casual" side of the market is stronger and bigger than ever, and most games will be changed/made so that they can fit this audience's needs. That's why streamlining and "dumbing down". Is happening. Games definitely aren't getting more complex.
This is why RPG's are suffering too. Everyone wants their share of the casual market, but for RPG's it is hard. RPG's are rather complex games when compared to other genres. You need to build character stats, skills, compare equipment, read, and so on. The only way RPG's can reach that audience is by, well, giving up some of these features. So, in my opinion, gaming in general is devolving.
But I don't think all hope is lost. In 10 years or so, the casual gaming market will, at least in part, join the group of "gamers" most of us belong in. And once we reach that stage, people will want something else than the casual experience gaming would have been offering for the past 7-8 years. That's when gaming, in general, can reach the stage that we can have games that are not for everybody. Just like in literary, there are books that are "hard to read", but for those that can read them they are extremely fulfilling experiences.
This is my vision where the industry is heading. During the upcoming years there will be less and less non-mainstream games and complex games. It's just a age we have to survive through.
/insane rant end.
#43
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 06:49
BiowarEA
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Warheadz wrote...
Look at this video. It's supposed to represent what Microsoft thinks is the future of PC gaming.
Here.
EEEEEEEEK!
From that video:
From a 99 cent virtual item to a $49.99 game, I can spend my money as I see fit. Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience.
That sounds like something off a propaganda poster.
Repeat the mantra with me three times, my children:
"Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience."
"Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience."
"Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience."
"Microsoft loves us: one and all, amen."
I really liked the "To fully enjoy modern games you must buy tons of ****ty addons" bit. Yes, that's exactly what I want, DLCs for everything. They should try it with Windows 8 - you want a windows manager? 5000 Microsoft points! It wasn't ready when the dvds were being burnt, honest...
Add to that the disturbing implicatons of the ending, and I quote
"The future of PC gaming is upon us
The question is who will lead and who will follow?
Are you ready to change the world?
We Are."
That is a declaration of war, a war that they are "ready" for. So don't try to fight back, don't attack their videos with your petty "dislikes", because it's too late. They came prepared. The war is over just as soon as it has begun. You hear that? Those are the euthanasia squads, already brezzing past your measly defences. Don't fight it, you've lost. We've all lost.
Modifié par BiowarEA, 23 mars 2011 - 06:50 .
#45
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 07:03
17thknight
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RPG's in general are fine. Bioware's devolving, that's all. And it's quite obviously due to EA's influence.
#46
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 07:09
lltoon
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Il Divo wrote...
I stopped taking him seriously when he referred to Mass Effect's inventory as 'incredibly robust'. Really, guy?
It's robust compared to the other lackluster horrid games that had inventory.
#47
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 07:11
Jiggasaurus
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I wouldn’t say they are dying, given the opening question in the title, you can narrow your mind a bit too much when it comes to what represents & constitutes an RPG which is quite often seen on gaming forums.
The article covers Western RPGs, then there are obvious Action/Adventure RPGs, Eastern RPGS (JRPG) and of course MMORPG’s.
Wanting a piece of the casual market pie is not exactly a new age concept, it’s been happening for decades on all consoles and computers in all genres of gaming.
It is a nicely written article, I just don’t see it myself & won’t be dooming and glooming just yet.
The article covers Western RPGs, then there are obvious Action/Adventure RPGs, Eastern RPGS (JRPG) and of course MMORPG’s.
Wanting a piece of the casual market pie is not exactly a new age concept, it’s been happening for decades on all consoles and computers in all genres of gaming.
It is a nicely written article, I just don’t see it myself & won’t be dooming and glooming just yet.
#48
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 07:15
molbani
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I found the article overly cynical and got quite good laugh.
#49
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 07:15
88mphSlayer
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neither
they just lack creativity
you look at games like Dragon Age 2, the "me-too's" of gaming and it's just a general lack of vision for something new and exciting... i actually don't mind evolution for gaming being about making games feel more intuitive and easier to handle, but doing that without any creativity is just... boring
they just lack creativity
you look at games like Dragon Age 2, the "me-too's" of gaming and it's just a general lack of vision for something new and exciting... i actually don't mind evolution for gaming being about making games feel more intuitive and easier to handle, but doing that without any creativity is just... boring
#50
Posté 23 mars 2011 - 07:17
SuperMedbh
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I suppose it has to do with whether one feels that RPG means "lots of micromanagement inventory decisions" or "strong storyline". I didn't miss the inventory in ME2 at all. I can't remember a single genre novel in which a chapter or so was spent on deciding what the best type of armor was for each and every character. Not to mention looting every dustbin in the middle of an climatic raid.
Not to say "accountancy simulation" makes a bad game; certainly ME1 and DAO prove otherwise. On the other hand, simply making inventory and combat "faster and bettah" resulted in DA2, a rather episodic narrative with flashes of good character and dialogue.
Bottom line for me (and I won't speak for the rest of you), narrative and the ability to influence it make the RPG, not the details of the game mechanics.
Not to say "accountancy simulation" makes a bad game; certainly ME1 and DAO prove otherwise. On the other hand, simply making inventory and combat "faster and bettah" resulted in DA2, a rather episodic narrative with flashes of good character and dialogue.
Bottom line for me (and I won't speak for the rest of you), narrative and the ability to influence it make the RPG, not the details of the game mechanics.
