151 réponses à ce sujet

[Radwar]

Although DA2 did have minor improvements over DAO, it had so many setbacks compared to it that I find it amusing that Bioware used the term "evolving" to describe DA2 over DAO awhile back.

[moilami]

BiowarEA wrote...

Warheadz wrote...


Look at this video. It's supposed to represent what Microsoft thinks is the future of PC gaming.
Here.

EEEEEEEEK! 

From that video: 
From a 99 cent virtual item to a $49.99 game, I can spend my money as I see fit. Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience.

That sounds like something off a propaganda poster. 

Repeat the mantra with me three times, my children:

"Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience."

"Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience."

"Buying things enhances my gaming and entertainment experience."

"Microsoft loves us: one and all, amen."

I really liked the "To fully enjoy modern games you must buy tons of ****ty addons" bit. Yes, that's exactly what I want, DLCs for everything. They should try it with Windows 8 - you want a windows manager? 5000 Microsoft points! It wasn't ready when the dvds were being burnt, honest...

Add to that the disturbing implicatons of the ending, and I quote 

"The future of PC gaming is upon us
The question is who will lead and who will follow?
Are you ready to change the world?
We Are."

That is a declaration of war, a war that they are "ready" for. So don't try to fight back, don't attack their videos with your petty "dislikes", because it's too late. They came prepared. The war is over just as soon as it has begun. You hear that? Those are the euthanasia squads, already brezzing past your measly defences. Don't fight it, you've lost. We've all lost.

Gotta be happy there still are some PC gamers. When I only have that MS experience to chose I stop gaming.

[P_k_r]

The problem with developers like BioWare and Bethesda is that they have a HUGE following. They are already legends in their own niche, whether it is the broader "RPG" one or the narrower - "story-driven"/"open-world" (respectively). More often than not, they have fans dating back to the now-ancient, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind. These are all BIG titles in the gaming industry, whether you like them or not. And now, when they want to expand to cash in even more profits, I see both companies as facing a dilemma. Do they play it safe and stick to their niche? Do they "streamline" and "simplify" (notice how I'm using quotation marks, as I think both of these often come out as "dumbing down") the experience to attract the average gamers?

The example is perfectly observed with Dragon Age 2. BioWare said that they were catering to their original fanbase (the "tactical combat" without the ability to have a tactical view, to have a free camera when casting AoE spells, the lack of an inventory system in what is an otherwise loot-driven genre) all the while trying to appeal to the broader audience as well. The result? As another poster in this thread said, an identity crisis. The game struggles to appeal to two very different audiences and, as a player who indulges in a lot of gaming genres, I can say that it's not as successful as it could have been if it had chosen to stick to its niche. (my opinion, as always)

So I think that the problem isn't so much that the RPG genre as a whole is dying, it's just the excessive PR. BioWare, for example, couldn't stop saying how this was a better version of Origins. Well, I can't see how when they removed some of the key features of the first game. MIsleading information is what causes this backlash in the community and all the doom and gloom. If devs are upfront with what they do (wishful thinking on my part), people wouldn't be as confused and, ultimately, as disappointed as they are now.

Modifié par P_k_r, 23 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[AlanC9]

SuperMedbh wrote...

I suppose it has to do with whether one feels that RPG means "lots of micromanagement inventory decisions" or "strong storyline". I didn't miss the inventory in ME2 at all. I can't remember a single genre novel in which a chapter or so was spent on deciding what the best type of armor was for each and every character. Not to mention looting every dustbin in the middle of an climatic raid.

This. When I read something like "and the looting system – a staple of any self-respecting RPG – was completely eradicated" I start to wonder if maybe I just don't like RPGs in the first place.

Of course, what I like isn't of any interest to anyone else. But maybe Bio doesn't like RPGs anymore either.

It's also kind of ludicrous to see "taking away freedom and ability to create your own motivations and origin seems to be moving us backwards" without any mention of BG itself doing the exact same thing. Disliking DA2's implementation is one thing. Pretending it's a huge break with RPG tradition is another.

As for Skyrim, I won't pretend to be an expert on the TES games, but I don't see how the class system actually kept anyone from making his character into a Swiss Army Knife in the earlier games in the series. It might reward or punish you depending on how you'd set up leveling, but if you wanted an ability you could get it without any real difficulty.

I was a little shocked at how sloppy the thinking was in the piece.

[Aermas]

RPG's are definitely devolving, All my hope now rests with Skyrim, glory be to Skyrim

[Icinix]

I getz my betterz role playin' axeperience from Sims Med'evil dan some crud comin' out. Yo.

[BeljoraDien]

I'm so confused by the Skyrim stuff... Elder Scrolls is pointless and boring, and I can't imagine Skyrim will be that much different.

[AlanC9]

P_k_r wrote...
The example is perfectly observed with Dragon Age 2. BioWare said that they were catering to their original fanbase (the "tactical combat" without the ability to have a tactical view, to have a free camera when casting AoE spells, the lack of an inventory system in what is an otherwise loot-driven genre) all the while trying to appeal to the broader audience as well. The result? As another poster in this thread said, an identity crisis. The game struggles to appeal to two very different audiences and, as a player who indulges in a lot of gaming genres, I can say that it's not as successful as it could have been if it had chosen to stick to its niche. (my opinion, as always)

I think it's actually a little worse than that. Even within the inventory system itself we don't have a coherent design. Hawke runs on loot in the traditional way, but the companions don't, at least not to the same extent. This means that you get a lot of loot that's simply a waste of space since no one can use it. Every time you get such an item it points out the incoherence of the system.

Edit: I think it's the same kind of bad decision-making that led to planet scanning in ME2. They didn't really believe in planet exploration in ME2 but didn't have the guts to completely yank it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 mars 2011 - 07:57 .

[_000Darkstar]

RPGs are adapting to fit in and survive a constantly growing and changing market. "Old School" western RPGs are no longer viable. The cost and resources needed to produce them outweigh the potential sales.

If developers like Bioware are going to survive, they need to change their products to fit in with that market. Doom-sayers don't really understand that streamlining and making games more accessible is NOT what's going to kill RPGs, refusing to change is what will put them in the ground.

[Lunatic LK47]

AlanC9 wrote...

This. When I read something like "and the looting system – a staple of any self-respecting RPG – was completely eradicated" I start to wonder if maybe I just don't like RPGs in the first place.

Uh, KOTOR 1 had a better functional inventory than Mass Effect 1 ever did, but it still doesn't explain why 97% of the loot is always full of junk items.

It's also kind of ludicrous to see "taking away freedom and ability to create your own motivations and origin seems to be moving us backwards" without any mention of BG itself doing the exact same thing. Disliking DA2's implementation is one thing. Pretending it's a huge break with RPG tradition is another.

Or plot-dictated events like KOTOR 1's "U mu5t lose Bastila as a party member for the rest of the game until you turn Dark Side," or "You'll have to kill the Vulkars to save Bastila, regardless of betraying the Hidden Beks" or Jade Empire's "Your master kills you despite you being loyal to him or not." Everything is rigged from the get-go.

[Lunatic LK47]

_000Darkstar wrote...

RPGs are adapting to fit in and survive a constantly growing and changing market. "Old School" western RPGs are no longer viable. The cost and resources needed to produce them outweigh the potential sales.

If developers like Bioware are going to survive, they need to change their products to fit in with that market. Doom-sayers don't really understand that streamlining and making games more accessible is NOT what's going to kill RPGs, refusing to change is what will put them in the ground.

This. Ever wonder why JRPGs have been consistently dying? It's been the same old **** for 500 titles.

[moilami]

SuperMedbh wrote...

I suppose it has to do with whether one feels that RPG means "lots of micromanagement inventory decisions" or "strong storyline". I didn't miss the inventory in ME2 at all. I can't remember a single genre novel in which a chapter or so was spent on deciding what the best type of armor was for each and every character. Not to mention looting every dustbin in the middle of an climatic raid.

Not to say "accountancy simulation" makes a bad game; certainly ME1 and DAO prove otherwise. On the other hand, simply making inventory and combat "faster and bettah" resulted in DA2, a rather episodic narrative with flashes of good character and dialogue.

Bottom line for me (and I won't speak for the rest of you), narrative and the ability to influence it make the RPG, not the details of the game mechanics.

Combat must be removed from DA3. I did not find it fun at all in DA2. It was just waste of time. 

[AlanC9]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Uh, KOTOR 1 had a better functional inventory than Mass Effect 1 ever did, but it still doesn't explain why 97% of the loot is always full of junk items.

Well, isn't a lot of that junk only junk because you've got better stuff already? I think people react differently to loot that can't possibly be useful as opposed to loot that might have been useful if they hadn't already got something better

[Soilborn88]

Il Divo wrote...

I stopped taking him seriously when he referred to Mass Effect's inventory as 'incredibly robust'. Really, guy?

Mass Effect had an actual looting system. You could find armor, weapons, mods and other things. Apparently having a looting system was too much for some wittless worms to deal with so Bioware took it out completely in Mass Effect 2.

[MorrigansLove]

Witcher 2, people!

[Lunatic LK47]

Soilborn88 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

I stopped taking him seriously when he referred to Mass Effect's inventory as 'incredibly robust'. Really, guy?

Mass Effect had an actual looting system. You could find armor, weapons, mods and other things. Apparently having a looting system was too much for some wittless worms to deal with so Bioware took it out completely in Mass Effect 2.

Except the looting was **** where items floated to Shepard from dead enemies, and all of the stats for each set of armor was outright worthless except for either the default armor for each character Mark X, or the Collosus and Armax Predator armor sets.. Don't even get me started on how cumbersome navigating through the menus is especially when installing mods. When I'm dealing with 100+ items, it will take me five minutes to scroll through one set of mods just because BioWare conveniently forgot how to stack multiple copies of the same item. Look at the system critically before defending a P.O.S. system, moron.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 23 mars 2011 - 08:22 .

[Soilborn88]

_000Darkstar wrote...

RPGs are adapting to fit in and survive a constantly growing and changing market. "Old School" western RPGs are no longer viable. The cost and resources needed to produce them outweigh the potential sales.

If developers like Bioware are going to survive, they need to change their products to fit in with that market. Doom-sayers don't really understand that streamlining and making games more accessible is NOT what's going to kill RPGs, refusing to change is what will put them in the ground.

That's not true. Origins for the most part was a grass-root RPG and it sold very well.

But of course the game wasn't accessabile for many not familiar with the genre so the game was simplified so it would expand to a greater base of players. I've seen the Gothic series get completely destroyed for trying to go ultra-main stream and accessible to compete with Morrowind and Oblivion and as a result the latest 2 releases have failed miserably and the original developers left JoWood and the game sells has been in free-fall since.

I believe if another company were to develop a quality RPG to compete with Bioware, they would suffer a lot in sells especially in PC sells.

Final thoughts, Mass Effect was Bioware's perfect game that was accessabile to everyone. But now they had to do the same thing with Dragon Age, and as it mentioned in this article they done so so it would reduce complaints and generate more revenues.

In the end, the RPG gamer is left in the dust as usual.

[Soilborn88]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Soilborn88 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

I stopped taking him seriously when he referred to Mass Effect's inventory as 'incredibly robust'. Really, guy?

Mass Effect had an actual looting system. You could find armor, weapons, mods and other things. Apparently having a looting system was too much for some wittless worms to deal with so Bioware took it out completely in Mass Effect 2.

Except the looting was **** where items floated to Shepard from dead enemies, and all of the stats for each set of armor was outright worthless except for either the default armor for each character Mark X, or the Collosus and Armax Predator armor sets.. Don't even get me started on how cumbersome navigating through the menus is especially when installing mods. When I'm dealing with 100+ items, it will take me five minutes to scroll through one set of mods just because BioWare conveniently forgot how to stack multiple copies of the same item. Look at the system critically before defending a P.O.S. system, moron.

Get a little touchy aren't we? I had no problems with the looting system in Mass Effect. I'm sorry that having an actual looting system just completely blew your mind, and all I got to say is this.

Don't need it, sell it, don't need it Omni-Gel it. Problem solved, no big deal.

[Lunatic LK47]

Soilborn88 wrote...


That's not true. Origins for the most part was a grass-root RPG and it sold very well.

Uh, how well exactly? They only gave total sales for all three systems, and I don't remember seeing how many copies are sold for each individual system, and for a game like Dragon Age, it's only best played on the PC, which gives it Command & Conquer syndrome. Gameplay on a console however is a freaking chore when you have to navigate through three menus just to access "Spell #10." Sadly, the worst thing going against getting the game on the PC is because of DRM issues.

[Soilborn88]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Soilborn88 wrote...


That's not true. Origins for the most part was a grass-root RPG and it sold very well.

Uh, how well exactly? They only gave total sales for all three systems, and I don't remember seeing how many copies are sold for each individual system, and for a game like Dragon Age, it's only best played on the PC, which gives it Command & Conquer syndrome. Gameplay on a console however is a freaking chore when you have to navigate through three menus just to access "Spell #10." Sadly, the worst thing going against getting the game on the PC is because of DRM issues.

Dude just stop playing RPGs if they are too much to handle for you and STOP ****ING. You're the reason why the genre is getting destroyed because you don't know how to play them.

Wow. I bet your head would explode if you played Planescape Torment.

[Lunatic LK47]

Soilborn88 wrote...

Get a little touchy aren't we? I had no problems with the looting system in Mass Effect. I'm sorry that having an actual looting system just completely blew your mind, and all I got to say is this.

BAD INTERFACE, jack-ass. Is reading comprehension difficult for you? Apparently, you're demonstrating it.

Don't need it, sell it, don't need it Omni-Gel it. Problem solved, no big deal.

Oh, I can ****** Omni-gel whenever I want, but I'd rather have some spare copies of mods just in case I need it.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 23 mars 2011 - 08:27 .

[McHoger]

I think the real issue here is that Bioware has never made RPGs. They've all be story-based strategy games.

[Soilborn88]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Soilborn88 wrote...


That's not true. Origins for the most part was a grass-root RPG and it sold very well.

Uh, how well exactly? They only gave total sales for all three systems, and I don't remember seeing how many copies are sold for each individual system, and for a game like Dragon Age, it's only best played on the PC, which gives it Command & Conquer syndrome. Gameplay on a console however is a freaking chore when you have to navigate through three menus just to access "Spell #10." Sadly, the worst thing going against getting the game on the PC is because of DRM issues.

Origins generated MILLIONS in revenue and hell the DLC alone generated over a million dollars. That's a lot of sales right there. Playing on PC doesn't give it the command and conquer syndrome, you probably never even played it on the PC.

Seriously. If you can't handle RPG aspects of a game then go play Fable or Dynasty Warriors!

You're biggest complaint is this "OH ERR I CAAEENT MANAGE ME ITENSSS."

Modifié par Soilborn88, 23 mars 2011 - 08:25 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Soilborn88 wrote...



Dude just stop playing RPGs if they are too much to handle for you and STOP ****ING. You're the reason why the genre is getting destroyed because you don't know how to play them.

Are you a ****ing idiot? Is reading comprehension THAT ****ING DIFFICULT? Let me say this again and put it through your thick skull. Dragon Age is MEANT FOR THE PC ONLY, AND NO OTHER SYSTEM. LEARN2READ, DUMB-ASS!

[Lunatic LK47]

Soilborn88 wrote...

Origins generated MILLIONS in revenue and hell the DLC alone generated over a million dollars. That's a lot of sales right there. Playing on PC doesn't give it the command and conquer syndrome, you probably never even played it on the PC.

Uh, I said Command & Conquer syndrome in terms of "This game is only meant for PC, and playing it on the console is a bad idea because of a bad interface." LEARN2READ.