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[Sherbet Lemon]

This is my first time starting a thread. Oooh, I'm super nervous.

So. 

I've been thinking about this a fair bit and I don't believe I've seen this brought up at all on the forums yet.  We read a rather interesting codex about the Vael family and how they rose to power.  I believe they chose a peaceful way to rebel against the War Lord that had taken control of Starkhaven (you must excuse me as I'm operating from memory, I'm not in a place to check my save game and the wiki hasn't been updated with it just yet, at least not that i"ve found) and managed to do all right that way. 

I suppose my question is this: why haven't the mages chosen to go this route?  A group of mages peacefully fasting (like the Vaels and company did) might be the edge needed for the common folk to reconsider their own personal stance and the Chantry's "subjugation" of mages.  Imagine how it would look to the general public if the mages enacted this sort of rebellion?  The mages aren't acting dangerously and if the Templars were to attack, then they would seem like bullies There IS a precedence for this type of mass action after all.

I don't know.  What do you lot think?   Non-violent passive resistance ftw?

[LobselVith8]

Probably because they can be be killed or made tranquil since mages are taught to be "cursed" and are clearly demonized by the Chantry, unlike the Vael family. Mages have no basic rights, and some characters see it as slavery. It's two entirely different scenerios that you're comparing.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[KawaiiKatie]

My favourite quote on this subject actually came up before DA2 was released. Looking back, it really helps me frame why I support Anders and what he did for the freedom of mages.

Michael Hamilton wrote...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

[The Angry One]

Then again no dictatorship has been turned over by nuking the only neutral party that might have chance of helping you.

[Augustei]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

My favourite quote on this subject actually came up before DA2 was released. Looking back, it really helps me frame why I support Anders and what he did for the freedom of mages.

Michael Hamilton wrote...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

Revolting when an extremely powerful millitaristic nation is about to invade isn't the best time to take action Imo..

[TheBlackBaron]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

My favourite quote on this subject actually came up before DA2 was released. Looking back, it really helps me frame why I support Anders and what he did for the freedom of mages.

Michael Hamilton wrote...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

I support mage freedom. 

I also support executing Anders for doing reckless things that have the exact opposite effect of gaining freedom for mages. 

[Foolsfolly]

And it's not like the Templars are a dictatorship anyway. They exist because mages are extremely dangerous. They're often corrupt or zealots who take out their anger on the mages but that shows there's simply a flaw in the current system.

A flaw that could be fixed by better oversight by the Chantry. Example, the leader of the Chantry in Kirkwall is a good person who understand both sides of the issue but failed to act upon abuses with the Templars and with the Mages.

She allowed the situation to get worse instead of act within her power.

The Seekers are supposed to police the police too, but they're no where to be seen in Kirkwall until the situation exploded.

[Ziggeh]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

My favourite quote on this subject actually came up before DA2 was released. Looking back, it really helps me frame why I support Anders and what he did for the freedom of mages.

Michael Hamilton wrote...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

Egypt?

But to the thread generally, the trouble is the position of the public. People in authority aren't subject to them, and so what they need is really specific support, rather than general, though I suppose it might lead to that in the long term.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

Then again no dictatorship has been turned over by nuking the only neutral party that might have chance of helping you.

Since the Chantry controls the Circles and the Order of Templars, I don't think you can call them a neutral party.

Foolsfolly wrote...

And it's not like the Templars are a dictatorship anyway.

That Michael Hamilton quote was in direct reference to the Chantry controlled Circle, and why the Magi boon was turned down. Why define it as a dictatorship if it's not one?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 mars 2011 - 05:19 .

[Ziggeh]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I also support executing Anders for doing reckless things that have the exact opposite effect of gaining freedom for mages.

His plan is to force templars to crack down on mages everywhere, making mage compliance in the current system untenable and conflict inevitable, and hoping that either the mages do well enough to leverage a better deal when the dust settles or so badly they become the subject of sympathy and positive reform.

I honestly think it's one of the few things that stands a chance of working. It's just that chance is very small, and the means very ugly.

[TheBlackBaron]

Ziggeh wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I also support executing Anders for doing reckless things that have the exact opposite effect of gaining freedom for mages.

His plan is to force templars to crack down on mages everywhere, making mage compliance in the current system untenable and conflict inevitable, and hoping that either the mages do well enough to leverage a better deal when the dust settles or so badly they become the subject of sympathy and positive reform.

I honestly think it's one of the few things that stands a chance of working. It's just that chance is very small, and the means very ugly.

Oh, I know that's what the general direction of his plan is.

I just think it's a really ****ty excuse for a Xanatos Gambit, because as you say, it's got an extremely small chance of working, and in the meantime is going to turn most of the general public against mages. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 23 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Since the Chantry controls the Circles and the Order of Templars, I don't think you can call them a neutral party.

No, but the Grand Cleric essentially was, acting as mediator between the mages and templars.
Murdering her along with many other innocents was an imbecilic move.

The only thing "Abomination destroys Chantry, Grand Cleric and many civilians dead" is going to do is set back mage freedom 500 years.

[LobselVith8]

Ziggeh wrote...

His plan is to force templars to crack down on mages everywhere, making mage compliance in the current system untenable and conflict inevitable, and hoping that either the mages do well enough to leverage a better deal when the dust settles or so badly they become the subject of sympathy and positive reform.

I honestly think it's one of the few things that stands a chance of working. It's just that chance is very small, and the means very ugly.

It seems to have worked, from what Varric said. He addresses that the Circles have been lost, along with the Order of Templars, and that apparently even the Seekers broke free from the Chantry to hunt down the mages. Whether the Circles can maintain their autonomy is another issue, of course.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

His plan is to force templars to crack down on mages everywhere, making mage compliance in the current system untenable and conflict inevitable, and hoping that either the mages do well enough to leverage a better deal when the dust settles or so badly they become the subject of sympathy and positive reform.

I honestly think it's one of the few things that stands a chance of working. It's just that chance is very small, and the means very ugly.

It seems to have worked, from what Varric said. He addresses that the Circles have been lost, along with the Order of Templars, and that apparently even the Seekers broke free from the Chantry to hunt down the mages. Whether the Circles can maintain their autonomy is another issue, of course.

So Anders starts a war that could lead to mage genocide, or intervention from Tevinter to spread the rule of Magisters and slavery over Thedas, or leave the continent vulnerable to a Qunari attack.
Anders is a moron.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

No, but the Grand Cleric essentially was, acting as mediator between the mages and templars.
Murdering her along with many other innocents was an imbecilic move.

The only thing "Abomination destroys Chantry, Grand Cleric and many civilians dead" is going to do is set back mage freedom 500 years.

Actually, the codex entry for the Templars reads, "Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry." In regards to the Grand Cleric, we know from the Hierarchy of the Chantry that "Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region." I don't see how the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall was neutral when she clearly ordered the templars to escort the First Enchanter back to his cell and chastised the Knight-Commander as a little girl.

Also, the mages have had no freedom for a thousand years, and now they broke free from the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

So Anders starts a war that could lead to mage genocide, or intervention from Tevinter to spread the rule of Magisters and slavery over Thedas, or leave the continent vulnerable to a Qunari attack.
Anders is a moron.

I'm pretty sure Tevinter has its hands full with the Qunari, and I don't imagine the mages are going to be willing to trade one group of oppressors for another. And there's already an armistice with the Qunari, and since they didn't attack in the three years since the Arishok broke the accord, I don't see why they would now. I also remember the last time they attacked, the Circle of Magi was the greatest edge the Chantry forces had against them and their advanced technology.

You're welcome to think whatever you like, but the Circles of Magi did break free. Anders accomplished what no other mage has ever done in a thousand years.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, the codex entry for the Templars reads, "Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry." In regards to the Grand Cleric, we know from the Hierarchy of the Chantry that "Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region." I don't see how the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall was neutral when she clearly ordered the templars to escort the First Enchanter back to his cell and chastised the Knight-Commander as a little girl.

And yet the Grand Cleric could not stop Meredith essentially naming herself Viscount and oppressing mages due to the crazy. There's only so much she can do and is responsible for and in the end at least keeping her neutral or on side would be more beneficial than blowing her the hell up.
Even if she can do nothing at the very least the Chantry wouldn't be violently opposed to mages thanks to an abomination running around making innocents explode.

Also, the mages have had no freedom for a thousand years, and now they broke free from the Chantry.

Which between the Chantry, the Templars and the Qunari is going to last how long exactly?
Their only shot at freedom is becoming everything Anders hates, so he really didn't think this through did he?

[TheBlackBaron]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

His plan is to force templars to crack down on mages everywhere, making mage compliance in the current system untenable and conflict inevitable, and hoping that either the mages do well enough to leverage a better deal when the dust settles or so badly they become the subject of sympathy and positive reform.

I honestly think it's one of the few things that stands a chance of working. It's just that chance is very small, and the means very ugly.

It seems to have worked, from what Varric said. He addresses that the Circles have been lost, along with the Order of Templars, and that apparently even the Seekers broke free from the Chantry to hunt down the mages. Whether the Circles can maintain their autonomy is another issue, of course.

Can't really say "it worked" until the dust has cleared and they've still got their freedom. Just like you can't say the Libyan rebels have won until Gaddafi's gone. 

I'm no fan of the Chantry, but outside of intervention from badass PCs (*cough* the Warden/Hawke *cough*) they're probably the best hope the world has at the moment to defend against an impending qunari invasion and a cunning plan of cunningness orchestrated by Flemeth. 

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm pretty sure Tevinter has its hands full with the Qunari,

Not for much longer I'd wager/

and I don't imagine the mages are going to be willing to trade one group of oppressors for another.

There were already mage rebel groups that have backing from Tevinter.

And there's already an armistice with the Qunari, and since they didn't attack in the three years since the Arishok broke the accord, I don't see why they would now. I also remember the last time they attacked,

You don't think maybe the Qunari are watching and waiting for a good opportunity to attack like.. I don't know.. massive civil war?

the Circle of Magi was the greatest edge the Chantry forces had against them and their advanced technology.

Which was fine with mages behind lines of Templars in organised Exalted Marches, but now we have everyone fighting everyone, a great time for an organised force to march in and stomp them all.

You're welcome to think whatever you like, but the Circles of Magi did break free. Anders accomplished what no other mage has ever done in a thousand years.

He ignited a power keg that was already sizzling thanks to the crazy in Kirkwall. Freedom to die in war isn't really freedom anyway.

[Ziggeh]

The Angry One wrote...

So Anders starts a war that could lead to mage genocide

"Could" being the operative. The loss of all the mages is a definite possibility, and he says as much, but what he wants is an end to the status quo, a goal he achieves with 100% success, because that means either a better way or conflict until such a way is won or there's nothing left to fight for.

That said, you have to remember he's not just "Anders" in there and a big part of it is likely simply wrath.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

And yet the Grand Cleric could not stop Meredith essentially naming herself Viscount and oppressing mages due to the crazy.

You mean she chose not to.

The Angry One wrote...

There's only so much she can do and is responsible for and in the end at least keeping her neutral or on side would be more beneficial than blowing her the hell up.
Even if she can do nothing at the very least the Chantry wouldn't be violently opposed to mages thanks to an abomination running around making innocents explode.

You're forgetting about the Rights of Tranquility and Anulment. The Chantry was already opposed to mages.

The Angry One wrote...

Which between the Chantry, the Templars and the Qunari is going to last how long exactly?
Their only shot at freedom is becoming everything Anders hates, so he really didn't think this through did he?

Just because you assume there's only one route for the mages to take doesn't make it so.

[LobselVith8]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Can't really say "it worked" until the dust has cleared and they've still got their freedom. Just like you can't say the Libyan rebels have won until Gaddafi's gone. 

I addressed that it's also an issue of whether the Circles can maintain their autonomy.

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I'm no fan of the Chantry, but outside of intervention from badass PCs (*cough* the Warden/Hawke *cough*) they're probably the best hope the world has at the moment to defend against an impending qunari invasion and a cunning plan of cunningness orchestrated by Flemeth. 

I disagree about the Qunari. There's this reference to the New Exalted Marches:

"The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed. "

[TheBlackBaron]

Ziggeh wrote...

"Could" being the operative. The loss of all the mages is a definite possibility, and he says as much, but what he wants is an end to the status quo, a goal he achieves with 100% success, because that means either a better way or conflict until such a way is won or there's nothing left to fight for.

That said, you have to remember he's not just "Anders" in there and a big part of it is likely simply wrath.

Okay, sure, he ended the status quo. Doing so by pulling a stunt that minimizes the chance of that status quo being reformed in favor of the mages just makes me go, "Nice job breaking it, hero". 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 23 mars 2011 - 05:57 .

[Ziggeh]

The Angry One wrote...

Freedom to die in war isn't really freedom anyway.

The hope of freedom might be seen as preferable to it's absence. He created a possibility where none existed before, the issue being the risk is fairly immense. But it was always going to be, they have no leverage.

[Ziggeh]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Okay, sure, he ended the status quo. Doing so by pulling a stunt that minimizes the chance of that status quo being refomred in favor of the mages just makes me go, "Nice job breaking it, hero".

Well that depends on your opinion of the current state. Personally I think, at least in theory (practice involving people like meredith), it's the best game in town, but to Anders it was abhorant. He figures it's already broken, why not push it off the desk and see if anyone will fix it.