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What is Flemeth?


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#151
HSHAW

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spudrow2005 wrote...

im not sure what exactly Flemeth is but i do believe  that it is very possible that she is this series prime mover who has been manituplating everyone to bring about the current affairs in the world (ex the mage/templar war, the crumbling of Orlais/Ferelden alliance, the child who has the old gods soul, the champions role in kirkwall, ect).  As for what she is i have a few theories, shes either an awakened old god which would explain her power and dragon form.  A "devil" entity such as the dread wolf. And what seems very likely to me is that she was one of the ancient magisters of the Imperium that became warped when they attempted to usurp heaven.  It is also possible that she is some sort of spirit that has been body hopping and "Flemeth" is the most famous of its vessels


You mean the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden?

#152
Shadowbanner

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DarkSoldier84 wrote...

What do we know for sure about Flemeth?

  • She appears to be an old apostate who can change into a high dragon.
  • She is interested in power.
  • Until the Ferelden Circle of Mages acquired it, Flemeth possessed the Black Grimoire. When Morrigan reads it, she discovers that the bodyjacking stories are true and she's the next target.
    [**]She's been doing this long enough that the natives of the Korcari Wilds have been telling stories about her for centuries and the Dalish know her as the "Woman of Many Years" (asha'bellanar).
  • She either devised or found the Dark Ritual that Morrigan can use to capture Urthemiel's soul before it mutually annihilates the Grey Warden who kills his body and put it into a fetus.
  • During the events of Witch Hunt, Morrigan concludes that Flemeth is neither blood mage nor abomination, but is something no longer human.
  • She knows how to get around magic's inability to raise the dead.
    [**]She's very vague about the purpose of the amulet she gives to Hawke, but gives explicit instructions on what to do with it.
    [**]When those instructions are followed at least one year later (during which time the Warden possibly kills her at Morrigan's behest; remember the bodyjacking myth?), Flemeth appears and promptly flies out of the story.

I think Morrigan is half right: Flemeth isn't a blood mage or an abomination, but she was never human to begin with.

Flemeth is Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery, one of the Old Gods of Tevinter.

She is terribly cryptic and never forthcoming with information. She deflects questions with sarcasm and dry wit. She knows magic that is beyond mortal mages. She doesn't turn into a high dragon; she turns into a human woman when she wants to interact with mortals. She keeps a low profile not because of templars, but because the Maker cast her down with her peers and might do it again if he finds out that she escaped her prison.

[*]
[*]I'm with you. I think she's one of the Old Gods.
[*]

#153
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One thing just occurred to me that I previously overlooked. In DA2 we learn that there actually were dwarven gods, while in the elven origin and Witch Hunt (DA:O) it is suggested that elves and dwarves once entertained closer relations. Maybe the "forgotten ones" of elven mythology are the ancient dwarven gods, and the tevinter gods just advanced blood mages who acquired the ability to turn into dragons (like Flemeth ) and gained worshippers due to their sheer power. Someone here on the forums entertains this idea, and I believe it could be true - a similar thing exists in the Dark Sun setting of TSR/WotC.

Modifié par Sareth Cousland, 02 mai 2011 - 07:49 .


#154
Blacklash93

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Sareth Cousland wrote...

One thing just occurred to me that I previously overlooked. In DA2 we learn that there actually were dwarven gods, while in the elven origin and Witch Hunt (DA:O) it is suggested that elves and dwarves once entertained closer relations. Maybe the "forgotten ones" of elven mythology are the ancient dwarven gods, and the tevinter gods just advanced blood mages who acquired the ability to turn into dragons (like Flemeth ) and gained worshippers due to their sheer power. Someone here on the forums entertains this idea, and I believe it could be true - a similar thing exists in the Dark Sun setting of TSR/WotC.

Flemeth is not a blood mage, nor human.

#155
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Blacklash93 wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

One thing just occurred to me that I previously overlooked. In DA2 we learn that there actually were dwarven gods, while in the elven origin and Witch Hunt (DA:O) it is suggested that elves and dwarves once entertained closer relations. Maybe the "forgotten ones" of elven mythology are the ancient dwarven gods, and the tevinter gods just advanced blood mages who acquired the ability to turn into dragons (like Flemeth ) and gained worshippers due to their sheer power. Someone here on the forums entertains this idea, and I believe it could be true - a similar thing exists in the Dark Sun setting of TSR/WotC.

Flemeth is not a blood mage, nor human.


Aw... true, I forgot that. Well, Morrigan says she's not TRULY human, but she's clear about the blood mage part. I guess we'll have to wait and see then.

#156
Blacklash93

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Sareth Cousland wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

One thing just occurred to me that I previously overlooked. In DA2 we learn that there actually were dwarven gods, while in the elven origin and Witch Hunt (DA:O) it is suggested that elves and dwarves once entertained closer relations. Maybe the "forgotten ones" of elven mythology are the ancient dwarven gods, and the tevinter gods just advanced blood mages who acquired the ability to turn into dragons (like Flemeth ) and gained worshippers due to their sheer power. Someone here on the forums entertains this idea, and I believe it could be true - a similar thing exists in the Dark Sun setting of TSR/WotC.

Flemeth is not a blood mage, nor human.


Aw... true, I forgot that. Well, Morrigan says she's not TRULY human, but she's clear about the blood mage part. I guess we'll have to wait and see then.

You're right. "Truly" human could mean a number of things:

- She was human, but something happened and now she isn't anymore.
- She is only partly human.
- She simply is not human, even though she appears to be. Seems human, but not "truly".

You could interpret that line a number of ways.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 mai 2011 - 08:20 .


#157
Jedi Master of Orion

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Sareth Cousland wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I would imagine that it's a possibility he is the one orchestrating all the chaos that is happening around the world.


I think it's just the other way around. His organization (the Chantry, if he is indeed the ruler of the Black City) was doing very well until the mages decided to rebel. He won't be happy to find out that an Old God (Morrigan's baby) rises to oppose him, either. And Flemeth is most certainly an enemy of Fen'Harel as well - I guess she was hiding from him and made her first move only recently, when she sent Morrigan along with the Warden.


I'm not sure how much sense that would make. What good would forming the Chantry do him? It's not like he controls it, even if he was the Maker. The values of the Chantry don't exactly sound like something he'd want to promote. The Chant of Light doesn't even mention exactly what to do with mages, only that magic should not rule over man.

#158
spoe71

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I don't know exactly what Flemeth is, but I do know she is one of the most compelling NPCs in any game I have ever played (stands to reason she would be Bioware's creation if only for that fact). 

Since Dragon Age's conception, she has been a source of fascination for me: I really, really want another DA game focused on her, one that expands on her story, one that lets us have the answers.  Barring that, I wouldn't mind a professionally written novel that details her story.  I guarantee I would read it; heck, I'd beg Kate Mulgrew to read it to me :) 

Abomination? Possibly (though Fenris seems to think differently), but even the most powerful of demons seen so far hardly scared me as much as she.  That, however, means little considering there is no way for sure to know if the fade demons have yet been fully explored (especially given the different power levels of some, like Uldred, who was indeed quite powerful, as was the Baroness, both of whom were impressively more powerful than a run-of-the-mill Rage demon). Perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, the most powerful ones do not desire to be a part of the mortal world; perhaps there are "demons" that have transcended this base desire and instead have entirely different agendas.  So far all we really know is that the "good" spirits are the only ones who think this way (Justice, Awakening).  It stands to reason if the virtuous spirits do not desire a mortal existence that there could be a faction of not-so-virtuous demons who think similarly but for different reasons---we just may not know about them yet.

Old God?  Very possible.  I'd like to think she somehow escaped the Maker's imprisonment and is slowly and methodically planning her move.  We do know there is a parallel with Archdemons: when one is killed, its essence moves to the next darkspawn and is reborn in that body (Riordin, DA:O); this is similar to her ritual of transfering her life essence to that of a daughter, a practice she has apparently been doing for centuries (Morrigan, DA:O).  It is this parallel that leads me to believe that Flemeth may be an Old God, but, as always, that is speculation.  Another note worth mentioning is that Flemeth can turn into a High Dragon, which is also the shape an Archdemon takes.  These things could be coincidence, however, but it does seem the powers at work are at least related on the surface.

Another thought I have had---though this one seems pretty far-fetched and, as such, easily dismissable because I don't really have any proof to offer---is that Flemeth is something else entirely, such as the physical incarnation of something much more powerful, a dark force not unlike Satan in the Bible.  I'm not suggesting she is one of the Maker's creations (as fade spirits like Justice are), but she could be (or at least be the physical vessel of one like Anders is in DA II).  The only evidence I could possibly use to support this, and it's sketchy at best, is to compare what happens to Anders in DAII: the virtuous spirit of Justice transforms into something else whose soul purpose, whose only drive, seems to be the antithesis of what it originally was.  If it happened to one virtuous spirit, it could, regardless of the rarity of such an event, happen to any; however, Justice in Awakening seemed to indicate that "spirits" and "mortals" are two different things, and we know that Justice's transformation was tainted by a mortal's desire for revenge, but who is to say something similar did not happen to Flemeth centuries ago?  As I said, this is a pretty thin argument and probably not even worth considering.

We can only hope DA III's plans---or DA IV's---include a campaign wrapped all around this enigmatic figure.  I'd really like to play out that story. 

Modifié par spoe71, 03 mai 2011 - 12:04 .


#159
Rifneno

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spoe71 wrote...

That, however, means little considering there is no way for sure to know if the fade demons have yet been fully explored (especially given the different power levels of some, like Uldred, who was indeed quite powerful, as was the Baroness, both of whom were impressively more powerful than a run-of-the-mill Rage demon).


Just a quick note: both Uldred and the Baroness were pride demons.  Pride is the most powerful, most intelligent, and fortunately rarest demon.  Rage is the bottom of the tier.  It goes Rage > Hunger > Sloth > Desire > Pride.

#160
spoe71

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Rifneno wrote...

spoe71 wrote...

That, however, means little considering there is no way for sure to know if the fade demons have yet been fully explored (especially given the different power levels of some, like Uldred, who was indeed quite powerful, as was the Baroness, both of whom were impressively more powerful than a run-of-the-mill Rage demon).


Just a quick note: both Uldred and the Baroness were pride demons.  Pride is the most powerful, most intelligent, and fortunately rarest demon.  Rage is the bottom of the tier.  It goes Rage > Hunger > Sloth > Desire > Pride.


Ah, excellent point you make.  Thank you for that.  I should have been more precise.  I meant to say that since there are so many different power levels among demons, it stands to reason that there could be some more powerful than Pride that dwell outside the aforementioned demons' desires to be a part of the mortal realm but instead, given their power and intelligence, have a separate agenda.  Sorry.  I should have clarified that better.

#161
Blacklash93

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spoe71 wrote...


Abomination? Possibly (though Fenris seems to think differently), but even the most powerful of demons seen so far hardly scared me as much as she.  That, however, means little considering there is no way for sure to know if the fade demons have yet been fully explored (especially given the different power levels of some, like Uldred, who was indeed quite powerful, as was the Baroness, both of whom were impressively more powerful than a run-of-the-mill Rage demon). Perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, the most powerful ones do not desire to be a part of the mortal world; perhaps there are "demons" that have transcended this base desire and instead have entirely different agendas.  So far all we really know is that the "good" spirits are the only ones who think this way (Justice, Awakening).  It stands to reason if the virtuous spirits do not desire a mortal existence that there could be a faction of not-so-virtuous demons who think similarly but for different reasons---we just may not know about them yet. 

 

She is not an abomination. Morrigan says so in Witch Hunt.

On another note, I have to say that Kate Mulgrew is probably the best celebrity VA Bioware has ever acquired, in my opinion. Her voice is just so distinct and perfect for a character as mysterious and intruiging as Flemeth.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 03 mai 2011 - 12:32 .


#162
Icy Magebane

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I kind of like the idea that Flemeth is the Trickster from elven mythology... or, "religion" since that would make those gods real. Anyway... I think it fits with the character, and she does seem to have a connection with elves... Guess we'll have to wait and see. A lot of the theories people have come up with seem plausible.

Also, I've never seen any reason to trust Morrigan's word. I wouldn't rule out Flemeth being an abomination based solely on that.

#163
Rifneno

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spoe71 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

spoe71 wrote...

That, however, means little considering there is no way for sure to know if the fade demons have yet been fully explored (especially given the different power levels of some, like Uldred, who was indeed quite powerful, as was the Baroness, both of whom were impressively more powerful than a run-of-the-mill Rage demon).


Just a quick note: both Uldred and the Baroness were pride demons.  Pride is the most powerful, most intelligent, and fortunately rarest demon.  Rage is the bottom of the tier.  It goes Rage > Hunger > Sloth > Desire > Pride.


Ah, excellent point you make.  Thank you for that.  I should have been more precise.  I meant to say that since there are so many different power levels among demons, it stands to reason that there could be some more powerful than Pride that dwell outside the aforementioned demons' desires to be a part of the mortal realm but instead, given their power and intelligence, have a separate agenda.  Sorry.  I should have clarified that better.


Ahh.  An interesting theory.  Those types of demons would have be exceptionally rare though since Justice had no idea what she was.  Of course I suppose they could handwave it.  Again.

#164
Blacklash93

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Icy Magebane wrote...

I kind of like the idea that Flemeth is the Trickster from elven mythology... or, "religion" since that would make those gods real. Anyway... I think it fits with the character, and she does seem to have a connection with elves... Guess we'll have to wait and see. A lot of the theories people have come up with seem plausible.

Also, I've never seen any reason to trust Morrigan's word. I wouldn't rule out Flemeth being an abomination based solely on that.

I doubt the writers would make her say that just to mislead us. Even Fenris and Anders don't know what she is.

#165
spoe71

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Whatever the case may be---and I am certainly enjoying all of this debate, very interesting stuff---one thing is for sure: no one is really sure exactly what she is.

As stated already, information from Morrigan and Flemeth is certainly not completely admissible given their propensity for secrecy and outright lies.

Additionally, Justice doesn't know what she is, which means that IF, and it's a big if, Flemeth is something related to what Justice became through Anders, that sort of thing has to be the rarest of occurances. Given her power, though, it seems possible.

I guess for me it seems most plausible that she is an old god, given what evidence is actually available, not that any of it is truly definitive.  We really don't have a precedent to go on, as all of the other Old Gods have only surfaced after the darkspawn found them, tainted them, and turned them loose on humanity.  There's no telling what a non-tainted Old God's agenda would be.

All we really know about the Old Gods is that they were dragons---or at least appeard as such to mortals.  Flemeth can become a dragon and she can transfer her life force in a way similar to how we understand Archdemons can transfer theirs.  She mentions in DA II that "perhaps" she "is a dragon" early in the game (though, as stated earlier, we really can't accept what she says as truth).

the Dragon Age wiki states, " What the Old Gods actually are and their relation to the Maker is very mysterious. What is certain is that the Chantry teaches that the Old Gods were false. They turned mortals from worship of the Maker, recognized as the "First Sin". As a result, the Maker imprisoned them underground." 

From this I find an interesting parallel between what the Old Gods did and what Satan did in Milton's Paradise Lost: Satan was cast out of favor with God, so he was cast out of Heaven and fell for a very long time through "Chaos" only to land in Hell.   It was Satan who instigated the "Original Sin" just as the Old Gods did in the Dragon Age universe (see Wiki entry above).

My only problem with this theory is that Flemeth seems to be "centuries" old; the Old Gods would be MUCH older than that, possibly even as old as the Maker (or thereabouts).  With that in mind, I keep going back to the idea that Flemeth MAY be in some way in a similar situation as Anders, the difference being the being that inhabits Flemeth's body might be much more powerful than Justice (i.e. an Old God's essence).  

Again, all just speculation.   

Modifié par spoe71, 03 mai 2011 - 01:31 .


#166
Abispa

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Bethany: You're an apostate?

Flemeth: Yes. Just like you.

Does anyone else ever wonder if there may be something more to that line than the obvious? Like maybe Bethany is a possible replacement for Morrigan for Flemeth to possess (if Morrigan's story wasn't a bunch of BS to trick the Warden into killing Flemeth for her)? Or maybe Flemeth sees in Bethany the potential to follow in her footsteps?

Of course, I have no idea what that would make mage Hawke.

I've read several posts saying that it would be a disappointment that Flemeth was "just an abomination," even if she was a very powerful one. Would it be a huge disappointment if Flemeth as "just an apostate," even if she was a powerful one?

Modifié par Abispa, 03 mai 2011 - 01:30 .


#167
Ulicus

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An apostate, just like them? :P

EDIT: 
Well, darn, you edited your post and now my response makes no sense.

Modifié par Ulicus, 03 mai 2011 - 01:34 .


#168
Abispa

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Sorry about that, Ulicus.

#169
spoe71

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Abispa wrote...

I've read several posts saying that it would be a disappointment that Flemeth was "just an abomination," even if she was a very powerful one.


Interesting thought, but I think the term "abomination" can apply to more.  A Rage abomination is less a threat than a Pride abomination, for example.  Anders, in a sense, is also an abomination in that he is posessed.  It seems that just about any form of posession qualifies as an abomination; I think we concentrate more on the connotation of the word more than its actual meaning.

That doesn't mean, however, that Flemeth is one in the way we understand it.  We may not even fully understand what an "abomination" actually consists of beyond simple posession; it's just that since the evil fade demons are continually trying to get into mage bodies, that's just what we see the most of.  Justice mentions that the good spirits do not desire to become such, but his posession of Anders, even as it was voluntary, indicates that it does happen.

So my thought is that if Flemeth is an abomination, she is certainly something outside the norm.

#170
Abispa

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If written well, the discovery of Flemeth's identity can be awesome even if she is "just" an apostate or an abomination. If written badly, the discovery of Flemeth's identity could be a bad joke even if she were an "old god," "trickster," "dragon," or "Andraste."

#171
Blacklash93

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spoe71 wrote...

My only problem with this theory is that Flemeth seems to be "centuries" old; the Old Gods would be MUCH older than that, possibly even as old as the Maker (or thereabouts).  With that in mind, I keep going back to the idea that Flemeth MAY be in some way in a similar situation as Anders, the difference being the being that inhabits Flemeth's body might be much more powerful than Justice (i.e. an Old God's essence).  

She could be far older than we assume. She could have lived many lives before the legends about her manifested.

#172
spoe71

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Blacklash93 wrote...

spoe71 wrote...

My only problem with this theory is that Flemeth seems to be "centuries" old; the Old Gods would be MUCH older than that, possibly even as old as the Maker (or thereabouts).  With that in mind, I keep going back to the idea that Flemeth MAY be in some way in a similar situation as Anders, the difference being the being that inhabits Flemeth's body might be much more powerful than Justice (i.e. an Old God's essence).  


She could be far older than we assume. She could have lived many lives before the legends about her manifested.


Dang it.  This is true, too.  She could even be---perish the thought---the eldest of the Maker's "first children," fallen from grace and cast out.  Heck, for that matter, she could even be the one actually responsible for turning the Golden City black!  I wouldn't put it past her to use anyone as a pawn in her schemes.  Man, wouldn't that be epic.  Seems if that were the case, she would have been harder to whip at her hut, but, then again, who's to say her "defeat" wasn't part of her plan to begin with.  
 
"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!" 
Sir Walter Scott.

 Crap.  Look at the can you just opened!!   lol

Modifié par spoe71, 03 mai 2011 - 02:12 .


#173
Abispa

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Flemeth is an old hag who talks too much. In Dragon Age, as in real life, such people wield terrible power.

#174
ydaraishy

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Has anyone mentioned yet that she's a Vorlon?

#175
bigrdog101

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I dont know if this was mentioned or even 100% true but i think demons and spirits in both games say
there is something even beyond the fade so she could from there..........this is prob just bs but meh......