239 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadowbanner]

Blacklash93 wrote...

She is not an abomination. Morrigan says so in Witch Hunt.

On another note, I have to say that Kate Mulgrew is probably the best celebrity VA Bioware has ever acquired, in my opinion. Her voice is just so distinct and perfect for a character as mysterious and intruiging as Flemeth.

True. This actress was really well casted for Flemeth's role, really incredible her voice. Makes Flemeth spring to life in my tv.

[Shadowbanner]

spoe71 wrote...


I guess for me it seems most plausible that she is an old god, given what evidence is actually available, not that any of it is truly definitive.  We really don't have a precedent to go on, as all of the other Old Gods have only surfaced after the darkspawn found them, tainted them, and turned them loose on humanity.  There's no telling what a non-tainted Old God's agenda would be.

The answer is fairly clear I think.

Its what you or I would want: company, an equal. She must feel very lonely.

In DA:O Morrigan tells the Hero of Ferelden about the Black Grimoire (Flemeth's secret agenda) and the dark rite that would spare his life placing the soul of an Old God (untainted) into the body of an unborn child.

Just how he heck would Flemeth, or anyone for that matter, know how to achieve such a thing when these Gods dissappeared so long ago? Moreover, why would she want this done? As the hero says in the Black Marsh (Flemeth's hut): "You (= Flemeth) had planned this all along" (after she rescues him and Anders from the Tower at Ostagar). Flemeth actively seeks to destroy the Blight. In fact she says she would be "destroyed" by it if left unchecked.

Because Flemeth IS an Old Goddess, one of Merril's Elve's lore, and she desperately seeks the return of her untainted kin, the Dragons! In fact doesn't Merril mention a name of one of the Old Goddesses and prays at the Sundermount shrine where Flemeth happens to magically materialise in DA2 coming back to life? What was the name of the Old Godess that Merril quotes, even giving a brief insight into her story whilst praying before the Sundermount altar? Maybe she is Mythal herself after all? Or maybe her sister, Sylaise: the Hearthkeeper, who taught eleves about fire and how to heal through magic and herbs, like when she cured the Hero and Anders with magic after rescuing them from the tower at Ostagar. Morrigan admits her healing skills are far more advanced then her own.

"Sylaise: the Hearthkeeper

It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants  into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the  fibers of plants into thread and rope.

--From Codex entry: Sylaise: the Hearthkeeper

Sylaise, the Hearthkeeper, is seen as the sister of Andruil the Huntress. Sylvaise gave the elves fire and taught them how to weave and to use herbs and magic for healing purposes."

Archdemon = Flemeth

They are both High Dragons of sorts. It's the yin and yan, two sides of the same coin, one a distorted, corrupted image of another, like a corrupted Eluvian mirror reflection. What other mage is able to transform itself into a Dragon.

Or the opposite, what High Dragon is able to transform itself into a human being? Only Flemeth. Flemeth in DA2 playfully admits before Hawke that she may indeed be a Dragon after all. Her powers far exceed those of a normal human mage. She cannot be human. The question, rather, is if she ever was a human to begin with. She also adds that she's known by many different names. The Chasind (a very long extinct race) knew her by "Flemeth". Each race had different names for the Old Gods.

Maybe Flemeth wants to reinstate balance in the universe with the return of Old Gods to act as counterbalance to the new "evil" tainted gods.

The only difference is that the afore are tainted and she isn't. That's why she fears the Blight above all and actively seeks to destroy it, because she doesn't want to get destroyed by it = tainted. We thought that when she said "destroyed" we took it for physically being destroyed, as in dead. But in DA2 she proves she is able to come back to life. What she fears is being tainted. She's the last of her kind.

I'm sure Flemeth will play a pivotal role in DA3.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 04 mai 2011 - 11:52 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Old Gods and the Creators are not believed to be the same. Or if they are, Bioware would have to do a lot of explaining. There are 9 Elven Gods, and only 7 Dragon Gods. The Old Gods are all thought to be male. Five of the Creators are thought of as being male. And both the Ancient Elves and the Ancient Tevinters seemed to think of them as having different roles.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[Pathforge]

AcidRelic wrote...

OK, 2nd playthrough and took Fenris with me. When Flemeth come out of the amulet you can ask Fenris his opinion. He says, as close as I can remember, "What are you, I've seen Mages, Witches, Demons, and Abomantions and you are none of these" She says something along the lines of "blah blah I'm a really, really old woman ect.."

Any idea what she really is? I was always of the though a witch with a powerfull demon in her, or just REALLY powerfull herself as a witch/mage.


A very WAY outside the box opinion, that is probably wrong,
is there and opposite of the Maker? Like Christian God and Devil?

I could be WAY off my rocker but...

In DA: Origins Flemeth makes multiple remarks about what the world has done to her, how men killed for her and how she hated it, etc.  It also seems as though Flemeth is trying to bring about changes to the world (hence the warning she gives you in DA:2)  Toward the begining when you FIRST meet her...she even says "Is it fate or chance?  I can never decide..." 

So...  I feel that she's either Andraste OR that she actually IS the Maker and just fed up with what humanity has done. 

[Blacklash93]

I firmly believe that she is, in fact, a dragon. Probably something related to the Old Gods.

She resembles her dragon form even when she assumes her human appearance. How she clearly summoned mana to turn into human form in the beginning (with the roar). How effortlessly she becomes a dragon. The dragon image that swirls around her when she's summoned back from the amulet. The fact that she's the new cover-dragon for DA2.

She has to be something draconic.

[Pathforge]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I firmly believe that she is, in fact, a dragon. Probably something related to the Old Gods.

She resembles her dragon form even when she assumes her human appearance. How she clearly summoned mana to turn into human form in the beginning (with the roar). How effortlessly she becomes a dragon. The dragon image that swirls around her when she's summoned back from the amulet. The fact that she's the new cover-dragon for DA2.

She has to be something draconic.

Yes...er...or she could simply just be a...<ahem> Dragon...  

[spoe71]

Yes...er...or she could simply just be a...<ahem> Dragon...  

I really don't think it's that simple; why would the writers go through so much trouble to cast her in such an enigmatic light if that were the case? 

If she is simply a dragon, it seems there would be more interraction with other dragons assuming human form in the game---something plausible that would indicate Flemeth has more in common with other high dragons than just form. 

My point is that Bioware has gone to great lengths to place Flemeth in a category all by herself while at the same time making sure her true nature is an entirely ambiguous thing that readers can only speculate about.  All we can do is piece together information she or Morrigan gives us, but, cleverly, those two sources are also the most unreliable in the game.  I wonder if Bioware did that on purpose?

Modifié par spoe71, 03 mai 2011 - 09:36 .

[Blacklash93]

spoe71 wrote...

Yes...er...or she could simply just be a...<ahem> Dragon...  

I really don't think it's that simple; why would the writers go through so much trouble to cast her in such an enigmatic light if that were the case? 

If she is simply a dragon, it seems there would be more interraction with other dragons assuming human form in the game---something plausible that would indicate Flemeth has more in common with other high dragons than just form. 

My point is that Bioware has gone to great lengths to place Flemeth in a category all by herself while at the same time making sure her true nature is an entirely ambiguous thing that readers can only speculate about.  All we can do is piece together information she or Morrigan gives us, but, cleverly, those two sources are also the most unreliable in the game.  I wonder if Bioware did that on purpose?

Well she can't be *just* a dragon. Not many dragons can use magic like shapeshifting, with the only known exception being the Old Gods.

The dragon stuff with her is laid on way too thick to not have any meaning.

[Abispa]

She's an apostate, just like Bethany. Her words, not mine. Wow, Bethany is gonna be so awesome. Unless the ogre killed her. But wait, the Warden killed Flemeth, but SHE didn't stay dead...

[Abispa]

spoe71 wrote...

Yes...er...or she could simply just be a...<ahem> Dragon...  

I really don't think it's that simple; why would the writers go through so much trouble to cast her in such an enigmatic light if that were the case? 

If she is simply a dragon, it seems there would be more interraction with other dragons assuming human form in the game---something plausible that would indicate Flemeth has more in common with other high dragons than just form. 

My point is that Bioware has gone to great lengths to place Flemeth in a category all by herself while at the same time making sure her true nature is an entirely ambiguous thing that readers can only speculate about.  All we can do is piece together information she or Morrigan gives us, but, cleverly, those two sources are also the most unreliable in the game.  I wonder if Bioware did that on purpose?

My answer to that, seriously, is that I don't think even Bioware has figured out who she is. She is BW's equivelent to DC Comics' The Phantom Stranger. She will be as powerful, elusive and inconsistant as required for whatever story Bioware makes up for her to take part in.

[Rifneno]

You know, I just had a thought.  Since she says she can be in two places at once, and she seems to be able to change her human look... what if Flemeth is Morrigan?  I don't mean taking over her body, I mean the whole time.  I don't know what the motivation would be, but it would be a delightful twist for the trickster god. 

[spoe71]

True enough. It'll be interesting to see how her story develops (hopefully it will in a future game or expansion). I can't think of a single literary character I've been more fascinated with.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

You know, I just had a thought.  Since she says she can be in two places at once, and she seems to be able to change her human look... what if Flemeth is Morrigan?  I don't mean taking over her body, I mean the whole time.  I don't know what the motivation would be, but it would be a delightful twist for the trickster god. 

But then, anyone else could be Flemeth. Maybe everyone. Maybe we've been Flemeth this whole time.

[Abispa]

@ Jedi Master of Orion -- Maybe we could start a new game, "Who Was Flemeth?" Is there a character in the DA games that didn't quite make sense, until you realized s/he must have been Flemeth? Is there a seemingly ordinary character who would suddenly gain an aura of coolness if you discovered s/he was Flemeth all along?

Suspicious Lady in the Hanged Man.

[ModernMan2009]

Flemeth's back-story is pretty much clear in Dragon Age Origins. She was a powerful apostate that was possessed by a demon. The demon later left her body with her mind and form relatively intact but she was changed as a result; she can manipulate her form and spirit at a level beyond that of a normal mage. There seems to be no other mythical or grand background to her than that. Her most interesting quality seems that she only concerns herself with grand schemes and the survival of Thades on the largest of scales.

[Blacklash93]

ModernMan2009 wrote...

Flemeth's back-story is pretty much clear in Dragon Age Origins. She was a powerful apostate that was possessed by a demon. The demon later left her body with her mind and form relatively intact but she was changed as a result; she can manipulate her form and spirit at a level beyond that of a normal mage. There seems to be no other mythical or grand background to her than that. Her most interesting quality seems that she only concerns herself with grand schemes and the survival of Thades on the largest of scales.

Her backstory never said that. All it said was that she was an abomination, which turned out to be wrong.

She's no simple mage or abomination. She's not even really human.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 mai 2011 - 07:55 .

[Abispa]

Blacklash93 wrote...

ModernMan2009 wrote...

Flemeth's back-story is pretty much clear in Dragon Age Origins. She was a powerful apostate that was possessed by a demon. The demon later left her body with her mind and form relatively intact but she was changed as a result; she can manipulate her form and spirit at a level beyond that of a normal mage. There seems to be no other mythical or grand background to her than that. Her most interesting quality seems that she only concerns herself with grand schemes and the survival of Thades on the largest of scales.

Her backstory never said that. All it said was that she was an abomination, which turned out to be wrong.

She's no simple mage or abomination. She's not even really human.

I love it when a post declares what Flemeth IS or CAN'T BE. In truth, she can be anything. We have no reason to believe that Morrigan is either telling the truth or even knows what she's talking about, or that her Witch Hunt dialogue may be a new incite or change in Flemeth. Anders and Fenris don't know what she is, which makes their insight speculative. Flemeth has only acknowledged that she is 1) an old woman, 2) powerful when compared to the Warden or Hawke, 3) an apostate (just like Hawke or Bethany!), and possibly a dragon.

I still believe that Bioware is making her up as they go along, but that is may belief and I can't state it as fact since NOTHING that has been said about her has been disproven yet.

[Rifneno]

Abispa wrote...

I love it when a post declares what Flemeth IS or CAN'T BE. In truth, she can be anything. We have no reason to believe that Morrigan is either telling the truth or even knows what she's talking about, or that her Witch Hunt dialogue may be a new incite or change in Flemeth. Anders and Fenris don't know what she is, which makes their insight speculative. Flemeth has only acknowledged that she is 1) an old woman, 2) powerful when compared to the Warden or Hawke, 3) an apostate (just like Hawke or Bethany!), and possibly a dragon.

I agree, no source of information on Flemeth is reliable.  The only one that even approaches reliable is Anders saying what she isn't.  And not because of Anders, because of Justice.  Justice, having lived in the Fade for...  since the dawn of time maybe, would know more about demonology than any mortal being.  But even that doesn't mean she couldn't be a unique case of something involving one.  The Grey Wardens know more about darkspawn than anyone but they were pretty shocked when a talking and sentient one appeared after a thousand years of mindless orcs.

Honestly I think we'd be better off trying to figure out her goals than her origins.  We have a lot more to go on there.  Granted it's not much, but it's still more than "nothing."

[Blacklash93]

Abispa wrote...

I love it when a post declares what Flemeth IS or CAN'T BE. In truth, she can be anything. We have no reason to believe that Morrigan is either telling the truth or even knows what she's talking about, or that her Witch Hunt dialogue may be a new incite or change in Flemeth. Anders and Fenris don't know what she is, which makes their insight speculative. Flemeth has only acknowledged that she is 1) an old woman, 2) powerful when compared to the Warden or Hawke, 3) an apostate (just like Hawke or Bethany!), and possibly a dragon.

I still believe that Bioware is making her up as they go along, but that is may belief and I can't state it as fact since NOTHING that has been said about her has been disproven yet.

There's no reason for the writers to have Morrigan lie about Flemeth. Or have Fenris and Anders make obervations that end up not being true. They aren't going to say something (more than once) just to mislead us.

And I'm certain they know what she is. The've already said they have a general plan for Dragon Age as a whole series and if Flemeth plays into that as much as they seem to indicate, they should know the nature of what she is. Even if they don't, they know it's not the wisest choice to contradict everything that's been said about her, things that have been treated as revelations.

[Abispa]

@ Backlash93 -- So you believe she's an apostate "just like" Hawke or Bethany?

I am intrigued by the fact that that line can be taken another way, that Hawke or Bethany have the potential to be like Flemeth.

[Blacklash93]

Abispa wrote...

@ Backlash93 -- So you believe she's an apostate "just like" Hawke or Bethany?

I am intrigued by the fact that that line can be taken another way, that Hawke or Bethany have the potential to be like Flemeth.

She's a mage not under the Chantry's rule. So yes, she is an apostate.

The thing is, she can't be *just* a mage. The writers have made too big a deal out of that point.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 mai 2011 - 09:50 .

[spoe71]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I love it when a post declares what Flemeth IS or CAN'T BE. In truth, she can be anything. We have no reason to believe that Morrigan is either telling the truth or even knows what she's talking about, or that her Witch Hunt dialogue may be a new incite or change in Flemeth. Anders and Fenris don't know what she is, which makes their insight speculative. Flemeth has only acknowledged that she is 1) an old woman, 2) powerful when compared to the Warden or Hawke, 3) an apostate (just like Hawke or Bethany!), and possibly a dragon.

I still believe that Bioware is making her up as they go along, but that is may belief and I can't state it as fact since NOTHING that has been said about her has been disproven yet.

There's no reason for the writers to have Morrigan lie about Flemeth. Or have Fenris and Anders make obervations that end up not being true. They aren't going to say something (more than once) just to mislead us.

And I'm certain they know what she is. The've already said they have a general plan for Dragon Age as a whole series and if Flemeth plays into that as much as they seem to indicate, they should know the nature of what she is. Even if they don't, they know it's not the wisest choice to contradict everything that's been said about her, things that have been treated as revelations.

Great discussions, everyone.  To add, however, I feel Bioware has at least a few possible outcomes for what Flemeth is.  I'm sure, given the quality of RPGs Bioware is famous for, they have a master plan--as well as a few contingency plans--for Flemeth depending on how things turn out in future DLCs and ideas for other games.  I'm glad they aren't being too forthcoming with information simply because it keeps the plot thick.

I agree that we have no reason to believe what Morrigan says, regardless of whether or not she believes what she thinks she knows (after all, both she and Flemeth are not opposed to deception, facts which are proven time and again.  For example, Morrigan tells us of her deception with the templar hunters in early dialogues in DAO).  I have no reason to think Flemeth was ever truly honest with Morrigan as all she is to her is a tool.  The fact is, Flemeth is a very enigmatic figure who delivers, at best, ambiguous information, but I think that's all part of the plan.

I do, however, feel Morrigan knows more by the time we meet her in Witch Hunt; she spent some time doing homework.  I do not feel that she has a full understanding by then, however.  But I really don't have any proof to back that up, but it does seem logical given Flemeth's propensity for secrets.

Almost all of the information we have concerning Flemeth is speculative, even from (especially from?) Morrigan, who was, I might add, dishonest from the get-go as to why she joined the warden in the first place just after Ostagar.  Not only that, but we learn from her DAO dialogue that even she is skeptical of the things Flemeth has told her.
 

Modifié par spoe71, 05 mai 2011 - 11:41 .

[D.Sharrah]

Interesting postulalion recently made in the Forgotten Ones thread...the pssibility that Flemeth is the "Formless One".

[Blacklash93]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Interesting postulalion recently made in the Forgotten Ones thread...the pssibility that Flemeth is the "Formless One".

The Formless One isn't a Forgotten One.

It's a Forbidden One, whom is just a very powerful spirit, which Flemeth is not.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 06 mai 2011 - 12:14 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Flemeth's MO seems to be very different from the Forbidden Ones. She's a well known figure of legend, they appear to be largely secrets among secrets. Admittedly we don't know enough about them to be entirely sure. But you know honestly I think the biggest evidence for Flemeth not being the Formless one is that she has a form.