81 réponses à ce sujet

[Gentleman Moogle]

 Okay, I'm gonna get flak for this, but stay with me here. I loved Varric. He was my favorite character in the entire game. But he, along with Hawke also made the single dumbest mistake I have ever seen in a game (and I've played Final Fantasy 4.)


So let's set the scene: You've fought your way through the Deep Roads until you find yourself in a long-forgotten dwarven ruin, and it's like nothing that's ever been found before. It's kinda ominous, really. Everything's kinda glowy red, there's no statues of paragons anywhere, and one of your party members even says something about "this is a place that was meant to be forgotten." It's a spooky place, and no mistake. 


Then you go into the next room, and there's a giant pagan altar with a creepy-ass idol on top of it. Now, let's be real here; this room should raise all kinds of red flags, especially if -- like me -- you brought Anders along. This is an ominous room, built as some kind of worship spot around a glowing, sparkling idol. The idol, incidentally, is a representation of someone or something no one has ever seen before. As seasoned adventurers who live in a world filled with magic, demons, and spirits who can possess people in their sleep, all your party naturally knows that this is a place that should be approached with extreme caution and a healthy dose of fear, ESPECIALLY that idol thing--


HAH, yeah right Hawke goes and grabs the pagan idol right off the altar and gives it to Varric, who tosses it to his feeble-minded brother.


DUDE. DOUBLE-YOU TEE EFF!?

I'm sorry, but that is the outright DUMBEST move I have ever seen! This is like Indiana Jones going into the cave in the first movie, noticing that freaky stream of light, and then thinking "Huh, this is interesting, I SHOULD STICK MY HEAD RIGHT IN THERE TO SEE WHAT IT IS."


And Varric is supposed to be one of the smartest, cleverest, most worldly-wise characters in the game! This isn't some campy horror movie, where the stars don't know about demons and crap, one of your party members is freaking POSSESSED BY THE LIVING EMBODIMENT OF JUSTICE. And yet no one says anything here. There's not a word of "hey, let's be careful" or even a "Maybe we should wait a second". No, it's just "Ooooooooooh shiny thing!"


I mean, what the hell? Is Hawke suddenly channeling Sandal here? I mean, it'd be one thing if this were some idol placed in a nicely wooded glade... These are the freaking DEEP ROADS. There's nothing here but here but danger and pain! The entire complex was built TO BE FORGOTTEN. As in 'we don't want people coming here ever again!" And NOBODY thinks to say that maybe the Idol is the reason why?


Varric, Hawke, I love ya guys, but you're imbeciles. Varric You're the new Merrill. Merrill, you're the new Anders. 


Anders, we'll figure out where you are later. We'll do lunch. 

Hawke, you're just an idiot. 

**EDITED FOR ACCURACY**

Modifié par Gentleman Moogle, 23 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
This isn't some campy horror movie,

Certain parts definitely qualify...

[Raltar]

Actually, Hawke picks it up, gives it to Varric who gives it to his brother.

[Alyka]

1:Varric probably figured it was okay to catch the idol because lyrium doesn't affect them as much as humans.

2:Keep playing the game.You will find out later.

Modifié par Alyka, 23 mars 2011 - 03:42 .

[Pileyourbodies]

Indiana jones goes into a temple with traps that work after thousands of years and the first thing he does is grab an idol.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Raltar wrote...

Actually, Hawke picks it up, gives it to Varric who gives it to his brother.

Ah, excellent point. Edited to reflect that. 

[lx_theo]

Right. I'm thinking money was on the mind more. You know how influential that is to anyone. And I mean anyone.

[Alexein]

The characters aren't genre savvy, living in their world perhaps ancient things aren't as dangerous to them as to us.

A friend of mine excavates ancient artifacts for a living, the most dangerous thing he's ever dealt with is mosquitoes carrying disease. He's found extremely valuable ancient gold relics but it wasn't carefully booby trapped or cursed (as far as he knows).

Perhaps Hawke and Varric approached their expedition exactly the same way as my archeologist friend.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Alexein wrote...

The characters aren't genre savvy, living in their world perhaps ancient things aren't as dangerous to them as to us.

A friend of mine excavates ancient artifacts for a living, the most dangerous thing he's ever dealt with is mosquitoes carrying disease. He's found extremely valuable ancient gold relics but it wasn't carefully booby trapped or cursed (as far as he knows).

Perhaps Hawke and Varric approached their expedition exactly the same way as my archeologist friend.

Did your friend have to fight through several waves of howling undead, summoned from the depths of hell by an Arch Demon in the form of a high dragon to get to those relics, perchance? Did he also have a dude possessed by a vengeance spirit from the mystical 'between realm' in which lives the entire world's population of demons?

I'm just saying; the world they live in is one of constant mystical danger. Hawke should be well aware of the presence of magic. His sister's a mage, for crying out loud. Hell, by this point he's gone and killed dozens of shades, ten or so abominations, and a metric f*ckton of bloodmages. The Deep Roads are overrun by Darkspawn, who became what they are because THEY BROKE INTO GOD'S LITERAL HOUSE AND WRECKED UP ALL HIS SH*T. 

This is not a sunday walk in the park here, even if you're NOT 'genre savvy.' This is a descent into a very dangerous, very unknown place where anything and everything could happen at the drop of a hat. And none of your party seems to get that through their skulls. 

... Okay, so maybe it IS a bad horror movie. They're certainly demonstrating the "Horror-movie Herp Derp" level of intelligence, here...

Modifié par Gentleman Moogle, 23 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[Ziggeh]

Alexein wrote...

The characters aren't genre savvy

Varric is: "I don't like this? That's right up there with "What could possible go wrong?""

But yes, it's not like the protagonist hears the soundtrack change and prepares for trouble. I'd have poked it with a stick a few times first, personally.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[Silveryne]

The characters exist in the world and are incapable of having the infinite foresight that we do. We have the frame of reference from watching a dozen movies where we claw our eyes out and go "DON'T DO IT." They don't.

[Deylar]

Silveryne wrote...

The characters exist in the world and are incapable of having the infinite foresight that we do. We have the frame of reference from watching a dozen movies where we claw our eyes out and go "DON'T DO IT." They don't.

Oh come on.

That's such a cop out.

In real life, if I saw a creepy idol I'd probably not even touch the idol. I'd leave it alone. 

[lx_theo]

Really, you would? At least half the people i know, myself included, would go and study the idol. To them I'm sure it just looks like an ancient artifact made of an rare substance. It'd be like finding an idol made of gold now. Would you really ignore that?

[Gentleman Moogle]

Silveryne wrote...

The characters exist in the world and are incapable of having the infinite foresight that we do. We have the frame of reference from watching a dozen movies where we claw our eyes out and go "DON'T DO IT." They don't.

See, I would argue that they have another frame of reference that is even better than ours. They see mystical sh*t go down every single day. They've seen possessions, they've seen magic gone wrong... Hell, by this point Hawke has even taken a trip into the fade and dealt with demons mano-a-mano. 

You're telling me that NONE of this is capable of ringing the 'don't touch strange glowing sh*t' bell in his mind?

[lx_theo]

If you work with something more, im sure someone like Hawke would just think that it's something ehe could handle, like everything else,

[Silveryne]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Silveryne wrote...

The characters exist in the world and are incapable of having the infinite foresight that we do. We have the frame of reference from watching a dozen movies where we claw our eyes out and go "DON'T DO IT." They don't.

See, I would argue that they have another frame of reference that is even better than ours. They see mystical sh*t go down every single day. They've seen possessions, they've seen magic gone wrong... Hell, by this point Hawke has even taken a trip into the fade and dealt with demons mano-a-mano. 

You're telling me that NONE of this is capable of ringing the 'don't touch strange glowing sh*t' bell in his mind?

I thought the fade trip ("Night Terrors") was in Act 2, actually.

I'd argue that because they deal with mystical magical stuff every day, they don't really think about it so much. After all, they wear magical equipment, deal with runes, have friends and sometimes siblings that are magical, et cetera.

Varric touching it and not caring also makes another layer of sense because he's a dwarf, and dwarves have a resistance to immunity (i meant to type "resistance to lyrium". But I like "resistance to immunity" better!).

Hawke being an irredeemable idiot makes more sense than Varric being one.

Modifié par Silveryne, 23 mars 2011 - 04:12 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

Silveryne wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Silveryne wrote...

The characters exist in the world and are incapable of having the infinite foresight that we do. We have the frame of reference from watching a dozen movies where we claw our eyes out and go "DON'T DO IT." They don't.

See, I would argue that they have another frame of reference that is even better than ours. They see mystical sh*t go down every single day. They've seen possessions, they've seen magic gone wrong... Hell, by this point Hawke has even taken a trip into the fade and dealt with demons mano-a-mano. 

You're telling me that NONE of this is capable of ringing the 'don't touch strange glowing sh*t' bell in his mind?

I thought the fade trip ("Night Terrors") was in Act 2, actually.

I'd argue that because they deal with mystical magical stuff every day, they don't really think about it so much. After all, they wear magical equipment, deal with runes, have friends and sometimes siblings that are magical, et cetera.

Varric touching it and not caring also makes another layer of sense because he's a dwarf, and dwarves have a resistance to immunity (i meant to type "resistance to lyrium". But I like "resistance to immunity" better!).

Hawke being an irredeemable idiot makes more sense than Varric being one.

Oh, good point, it was in Act 2, wasn't it? (Sorry, the game just kinda flowed together for me). 

I can kinda see where you're coming from, but I'm still gonna stick to my guns; the entire layout of this ruin was designed to be creepy and to keep people out. As I mentioned, one of your team even says "this place was designed to be forgotten". That just screams "danger" to me. It ought to to Varric too, since he's a rogue and all. You don't live that long by being cavalier. 

It's not just the idol, the entire place is filled with a sense of forboding. I suppose they COULD have just assumed they would be able to handle whatever might happen... But there's no sense of anything going through their minds other than "Derp! Profit!"

As for the "They deal with it every day" argument... That's technically true, but all of that is benevolent magic. They also deal quite regularily with malevolent magic. And, in a place known for it's purely evil nature (The Deep Roads), you'd think that they'd be on their guard every second of the way. 

[Foolsfolly]

Greed, for a lack of a better word, is good.

[Ziggeh]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

You're telling me that NONE of this is capable of ringing the 'don't touch strange glowing sh*t' bell in his mind?

Strange glowy things are kinda what they're there for.

Peoples point is that they can't use narrative causality to explain their actions, but I think you're right, that it doesn't really require that. If you're up to your beans in magical corruption, it's probably a given the magical artifact at the end of it ain't a device for summoning ice cream and rainbows (unless the ice is frozen souls and the rainbow is refracting off of the tears of damned).

[KnightofPhoenix]

I can understand glowy things being irresistible. But when it's glowing dark red with a bit of black you kind of should be careful.

[Alexein]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Alexein wrote...

The characters aren't genre savvy, living in their world perhaps ancient things aren't as dangerous to them as to us.

A friend of mine excavates ancient artifacts for a living, the most dangerous thing he's ever dealt with is mosquitoes carrying disease. He's found extremely valuable ancient gold relics but it wasn't carefully booby trapped or cursed (as far as he knows).

Perhaps Hawke and Varric approached their expedition exactly the same way as my archeologist friend.

Did your friend have to fight through several waves of howling undead, summoned from the depths of hell by an Arch Demon in the form of a high dragon to get to those relics, perchance? Did he also have a dude possessed by a vengeance spirit from the mystical 'between realm' in which lives the entire world's population of demons?

I'm just saying; the world they live in is one of constant mystical danger. Hawke should be well aware of the presence of magic. His sister's a mage, for crying out loud. Hell, by this point he's gone and killed dozens of shades, ten or so abominations, and a metric f*ckton of bloodmages. The Deep Roads are overrun by Darkspawn, who became what they are because THEY BROKE INTO GOD'S LITERAL HOUSE AND WRECKED UP ALL HIS SH*T. 

This is not a sunday walk in the park here, even if you're NOT 'genre savvy.' This is a descent into a very dangerous, very unknown place where anything and everything could happen at the drop of a hat. And none of your party seems to get that through their skulls. 

... Okay, so maybe it IS a bad horror movie. They're certainly demonstrating the "Horror-movie Herp Derp" level of intelligence, here...

No, but our world is also full of its own dangers.

i'm not trying to pick a fight here, i'm just offering a possible explanation for their mentality.

Our closest equivalent of "cursed" items are radioactive materials. Sometimes these are accidentally spread, some industrial or medical devices had tiny radiation sources that if lost can seriously harm people.

There was a case where a lost radioactive source somehow got stuck into
the wall of a bar... over the course of many years people that
frequented that bar started getting ill and developing leukemia and there was a signficant number of deaths before the source was found.

Do you go about your life with a geiger counter fearful that a piece of metal you find might kill you in 30 minutes if you keep holding it? no, you have a reasonable expectation that the dangers you are aware of (moving cars, electricity, etc.) are things within your ability to control or avoid.

That room might be "creepy" but heck my basement is "creepy", is it reasonable to expect there is a radioactive source in my basement? Creepiness associated with danger is a construct of good storytelling, not of reality. Varric and hawke would only associate creepiness and iminent danger if they knew there were in a story, otherwise they might approach the situation the same way i approach my basement.

The characters may have had to fight through monsters, but are monsters commonly associated with cursed items in their world? maybe, maybe not. To them monsters might just be monsters, and cursed items are not connected to that.

What you really need to find is precedence in their world for a causal link between monster attacks and cursed items. AND you need to estabalish that such causal links are commonly known.

In our world it is commonly know that germs cause disease and we are "genre savy" enough (common sense in our world) to wash our hands.  At one time though it was not commonly known that germs cause disease. In hindsight it might have been stupid and we might yell at our ancient counterparts for not washing their hands, but we can't really blame them for not knowing.

Likewise, perhapes in the DA world, magic might exist, cursed items exist, and monsters might exist. But to THEM it might not be that monsters are linked to cursed items. From what i've seen of their chantry teachings, they blame monsters on  fade creatures (demons) and darkspawn (in turn from screw ups in the fade). Cursed items didn't really come up all that often. So perhapes its not common knowledge.... It might still be true, i'm not saying cursed items don't associate with monsters... but they might not have made that connection yet.

So while we genre savy game players can laugh at varric and hawke, they might simply not have known. Our knowledge of such issues comes from playing other games and watching movies (indiana jones) something clearly outside of Hawke and Varric's capabilities.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but i think you're holding them to your own standard of a Human, Earth, game player, and not a Human Ferelden and Dwarf Trader.

[Pandaman102]

I'm more puzzled why Varric tossed the damn idol. I understand it's so there's enough distance that Bertrand can close the door before the party can rush over, but... hello? First expensive looking thing in an otherwise empty room devoid of anything else valuable and you toss it? I'm sure it'll be just as valuable in hundreds of tiny little pieces if Bertrand wasn't an NFL quarterback experienced in catching things. Wait.

[Alexein]

Pandaman102 wrote...

I'm more puzzled why Varric tossed the damn idol. I understand it's so there's enough distance that Bertrand can close the door before the party can rush over, but... hello? First expensive looking thing in an otherwise empty room devoid of anything else valuable and you toss it? I'm sure it'll be just as valuable in hundreds of tiny little pieces if Bertrand wasn't an NFL quarterback experienced in catching things. Wait.

yeah THAT i think was stupid. unless stuff is unbreakable in their world (i doubt it) they should have some common sense not to toss expensive stuff around.

[Ziggeh]

They do seem to consider the material important rather than the idol itself (they cut bits off and the larger part gets melted down, I bet the shaperate would love that. Vital part of our history, quick, but me a piece), so dents probably aren't all that much of a concern. I'd want to know what effect blunt force would have on mysterious artifacts before I started playing piggy in the middle mind.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 mars 2011 - 04:43 .