152 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Ander's is whiny with no legitimate reason. Plus he's entirely close-minded.

WHAT?!

THE ENTIRE KIRKWALL CIRCLE IS A REASON FOR ANDERS TO BE "WHINY", AS IS HIS PAST!!!!!!!!

F*ck´s sake some people don´t have a clue......

[Bluumberry]

Tirigon wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Ander's is whiny with no legitimate reason. Plus he's entirely close-minded.

WHAT?!

THE ENTIRE KIRKWALL CIRCLE IS A REASON FOR ANDERS TO BE "WHINY", AS IS HIS PAST!!!!!!!!

F*ck´s sake some people don´t have a clue......

He's wrong about having no legitimate reason, but he's right about the closed-minded part.

[mireisen]

OK so here's my ungodly long  response.

On terms of aesthetics...Fenris > Anders but I personally don't go for the lanky types. Buy it's
his face, definitely. He has perpetual puppy eyes due to being an elf but unfortunately it makes elves look funny when they're angry. Not intimidating at all. That's why the elves have the sexy voice actors I'm sure.

When my Warden slept with Zevran in DAO I was all giddy up until I saw his bare body. I felt like I just watched my Warden violate a 12 year-old boy. Thankfully you don't see Fenris naked in any scenes...which I think would've made or break it for me (because of Hawke being intimate enough to see/touch his scars or the strange experience I had prior when seeing a half-naked elf).

Fenris' personality is also more balanced as PPs have stated and that's much more attractive to my Hawke.  She's also lived a life on the run but doesn't feel like every Templar's the devil. Even if your Hawke's a mage Fenris could see that everything isn't black and white and give him/her an honest chance. Anders would never fathom being in love with a Templar. That'd totally unwind him I'm sure.

On the other hand, I feel rivalmancing Anders played into my characterization of Hawke than friendmancing because she is standing up and challenging his extremist views. This is realistic to me because every healthy relationship has it's counterpoints. Anders however begins to dive in this bubble that eventually, I feel, alienates him from Hawke. Even if Hawke invites him to live with him/her it feels like you're throwing yourself in front of a train to push a guy who wants to stand in front of a train. If Hawke stands up against Fenris he constantly warns about the consequences, talks about the Tevinter Imperium, but he wouldn't drag you into the danger. That's why he dumps
Hawke, and as much as it sucks he was thinking about him/her in doing so essentially. Protecting Hawke by actually pushing him/her away as opposed to Hawke protecting everyone else by placing themselves in Anders'
danger. Feels like Fenris knows his emotional boundaries whereas Anders does not.

Anders doesn't give you the silent smolder that a rivalmance Fenris gives but I didn't enjoy a rivalmance Fenris. He just seemed like a total jerk. It felt so displaced to me that he'd have any attraction to my Mage Hawke and having him open up in a friendmance seemed more fulfilling to me. 

So my verdict: Friendmance Fenris as a mage. He grows positively throughout his experience with Hawke, whether you are friendmancing or rivalmancing him. He becomes his own master as to say and keeps that independence by staying in his mansion and standing on his own however wanting to stand by Hawke too. Hawke's decisions impact his outcome much more than Anders. So I guess I believed him when he said "You're the most important thing that's happened to me".

And I wouldn't doubt that Fenris would kill my Hawke if need be. He's the kind of character that has limits and will fight back if those lines are crossed. But if he ends up with a mage he'd respects their strength yet will also keep them in check. I don't want my Hawke turning out like Anders and unhinging. Anders wouldn't keep her in check, in fact he'd enable her. 

No matter what you say or do won't sway or influence Anders after certain events and he deteriorates. He loses control and it's tragic to say in the least. But I just feel that eventually Anders is beyond saving and either my Hawke chooses to follow in his shadow in blind loyalty and love or to actually have a balanced relationship with him. 

Let's not forget, if it matters to a female Hawke, that there's also more chances in conceiving children with Fenris than Anders. I could totally see Fenris with a little daughter - that'd be precious! Anders unfortunately would either die from the taint or bring a family further into danger. Might be exciting for some, but since my Hawke's already been running around with her apostate feet I don't think there needs to be reasons for her to run faster.

So yeah, that's why I feel that my mage Hawke would have a more fulfilling relationship with Fenris rather than Anders. Personal preference, of course!

[Laurelinde]

Fenris. He grew on me; Anders wore on me. I miss "old Anders".

I think some of it is that I was coming into the game feeling like I knew a bit about Anders and my expectation was subverted as he has changed as is not the charming, more easygoing character he was in DA:A. Fenris on the other hand I knew little about, and wasn't sure whether I'd like him or not. At first he is very prickly, contentious and difficult to get to know; but if you can break the ice with him he's not so bad. I could understand where he was coming from, even if I didn't always agree with his point of view, and he was very loyal to my Hawke (unlike Anders) which I appreciated.

Plus, his voice is hella sexy.

[Tirigon]

Bluumberry wrote...


He's wrong about having no legitimate reason, but he's right about the closed-minded part.

Would love if you could explain why I don´t see him as closed-minded at all. Actually his mind is rather wide open for... some... influences, even.

[Kyriani Agrivar]

I don't look at Anders as close minded but rather as someone personally affected by the plight of mages. How can he not be he IS a mage. It's very easy for someone not living your life to be dismissive of your problems, especially when they aren't the same as you. It's not unlike discrimination in today's society. Sure there are people on both sides. Some compassionate others totally against you. But only you know what you're going through and only those like you can truly understand how it feels.

When he's telling you about what happens to mages he's not just telling you the story of some nameless faceless mage... he's telling you about what happened to him as a child. How he was ripped from home... how his parents were threatened to stay away from him or lose everything. He's angry about what happened to himself. He's angry that it keeps happening to others. He doesn't believe diplomacy will make things better only maintain the status quo. He passionately believes that needs to change. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) he has the power to bring that change about.

As a minority myself if I had the power to make the world completely accepting of people like me and even other minorities who are different from me... even if doing so robs them of the choice... or possibly resulted in one or a several injuries or even deaths... if I am truly honest with myself I would have to say I'd be tempted to do so. Someone who hasn't been oppressed in some way can't truly grasp the weight of how that feels. how powerless you feel when the majority stands against you. And depending on the severity of the circumstances (like in Anders case seeing what happened to Karl, someone he cared for) it can cause a person to reach a breaking point... a point where they feel enough is enough... a point where ANY action that stops the oppression becomes an option. Much like how many mages turn to blood magic.

I'm not saying what is done is "right" or "wrong"... but I can certainly understand why it happens... and I can agree that sometimes it NEEDS to happen. To quote DA:O "Andraste changed the world through violent rebellion against the Tevinter Imperium. She didn't write them a strongly-worded letter." Our own real life history backs that up.

The simplest analogy I can think of is this: Sometimes you have a break a few eggs to make an omelet.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 24 mars 2011 - 09:37 .

[catabuca]

@Kyriani -- great post. Completely agree with you. 

Modifié par catabuca, 24 mars 2011 - 09:20 .

[Tirigon]

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...

I don't look at Anders as close minded but rather as someone personally affected by the plight of mages. How can he not be he IS a mage. It's very easy for someone not living your life to be dismissive of your problems, especially when they aren't the same as you. It's not unlike discrimination in today's society. Sure there are people on both sides. Some compassionate others totally against you. But only you know what you're going through and only those like you can truly understand how it feels.

When he's telling you about what happens to mages he's not just telling you the story of some nameless faceless mage... he's telling you about what happened to him as a child. How he was ripped from home... how his parents were threatened to stay away from him or lose everything. He's angry about what happened to himself. He's angry that it keeps happening to others. He doesn't believe diplomacy will make things better only maintain the status quo. He passionately believes that needs to change. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) he has the power to bring that change about.

As a minority myself if I had the power to make the world completely accepting of people like me and even other minorities who are different from me... even if doing so robs them of the choice... or possibly resulted in one or a several injuries or even deaths... if I am truly honest with myself I would have to say I'd be tempted to do so. Someone who hasn't been oppressed in some way can't truly grasp the weight of how that feels. how powerless you feel when the majority stands against you. And depending on the severity of the circumstances (like in Anders case seeing what happened to Karl, someone he cared for) it can cause a person to reach a breaking point... a point where they feel enough is enough... a point where ANY action that stops the oppression becomes an option. Much like how many mages turn to blood magic.

I'm not saying what is done is "right" or "wrong"... but I can certainly understand why it happens... and I can agree that sometimes it NEEDS to happen. To quote DA:O "Andraste changed the world through violent rebellion against the Tevinter Imperium. She didn't write them a strongly-worded letter." Our own real life history backs that up.

The simplest analogy I can think of is this: Sometimes you have a break a few eggs to make an omelet.

Quoted for the sake of promoting an unusually well-written argument.

Or QFT, to make it short.

[Sherbet Lemon]

I agreed with much of your post and I do empathize with Anders but...

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...

He doesn't believe diplomacy will make things better only maintain the status quo. He passionately believes that needs to change. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) he has the power to bring that change about.

He has brought about war.  Yes, war brings both change and destruction, but more so the aftermath, rebuilding the peace can be just as contentious.

I tried to bring this up before but I really think the best way to show someone that you aren't dangerous is avoid embodying what people fear.  Justice can be achieved without violence.  It might take longer, and of course there might still be bloodshed, but that does not nullify the viability of a peaceful revolution.  Anders is wrong, so very wrong for ...and it's also why I can't see subjecting my Hawke's to such a painful resolution.  (Just to clarfiy:  I'm not saying that you think that at all as I don't want to misinterpret or offend).  Hawke's had a enough loss in her life.

Though I do empathize with Anders, I really, really, really do.  I like Anders/Justice a great deal. 

That's enough of my blabbering and gah...enough wall of text.

EDIT: I'm such an idiot...forgot this was the no spoilers forum...I am SO SORRY! T_T

Modifié par Village Idiot, 24 mars 2011 - 11:06 .

[Kyriani Agrivar]

Village Idiot wrote...

I agreed with much of your post and I do empathize with Anders but...

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...

He doesn't believe diplomacy will make things better only maintain the status quo. He passionately believes that needs to change. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) he has the power to bring that change about.

He has brought about war.  Yes, war brings both change and destruction, but more so the aftermath, rebuilding the peace can be just as contentious.

This change will be bloody and many innocents will die, the first of them being those innocent mages that we see get slaughtered by the Templars (and of course, the folks in the Chantry).  I know everyone likes to talk about blood mages being everywhere in Dragon Age, but there are Circle Mages who do NOT resort to blood magic and that scene saddens me something fierce.

I tried to bring this up before but I really think the best way to show someone that you aren't dangerous is avoid embodying what people fear.  Justice can be achieved without violence.  It might take longer, and of course there might still be bloodshed, but that does not nullify the viability of a peaceful revolution.  Anders is wrong, so very wrong for blowing up the Chantry and it's also why I can't see subjecting my Hawke's to such a painful resolution.  (Just to clarfiy:  I'm not saying that you think that at all as I don't want to misinterpret or offend).  Hawke's had a enough loss in her life.

Though I do empathize with Anders, I really, really, really do.  I like Anders/Justice a great deal. 

That's enough of my blabbering and gah...enough wall of text.

I really can't argue with what you're saying here...I agree with you justice can be achieved without violence... but consider this... as you said it takes longer... what if it takes so long that justice never happens in your lifetime? How do you think that can affect someone? It could very well push them into say "starting a war"! At least when a war is started over something there's action being taken. Again I am not saying this is a good or bad thing just that it is understandable to get frustrated when you feel like nothing is being done or what is being done moves at such a snails pace you'll be dead before you ever get to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

It's a feeling I deal with every day when I read the news. I know I will never see equality in my life time   I'm 35 years old I came out at 15 and it's taken 20 years for any signficant change in equality for people like me and yet still I'm a 2nd class citizen for the most part. How many more decades will it take? I can write all the letters I want. Donate to organizations that fight for my rights. But none of that will change the fact that it will probably be several decades, perhaps more than a hundred years, before my being different becomes a non issue. And even then it may never happen at all.

I guess the plight of the mages and Anders specifically is something that touches very close to home for me. I get to see children who are like me taking their own lives every day because the majority is telling them they are less than human, they are wrong, they are dangerous, they are evil. I see people like me have their homes vandalized with graffiti or be burned down by those who hate us. I see the people who hate us justify the attrocities they commit to their fellow man in the name of a religion that I don't even follow but their will is imposed upon me and the quality of my life is diminished because of it. And then they have the audacity to claim THEY are being discriminated against whenever policy is suggested that would protect me from them or give me the same rights they have.

Again I can't say what Anders does is right. I probably couldn't do it however tempted I might be, but I can understand why he did it. Why he felt the need to bring that conflict to a head and force it to be confronted full on and not just talked about on the sidelines with little progress being made so slowly generations would pass before you could see the changes. And what he did was the only way he could see to make it happen. Right or wrong it began change in a big way.

The American Revolution was not so different. When the colonies rose up to break from from the British Empire there was violence... a great a deal of it. While I can't claim to know the specifics (my history is very rusty) the Boston Massacre was one of the violent events that sparked the American Revolutonary War. A war that changed the very nature of America and created the United States we have today. War brings change violently and yes there are casualties but the change comes and it tends to come in big ways and at a much faster pace.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 24 mars 2011 - 11:07 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...

I really can't argue with what you're saying here...I agree with you justice can be achieved without violence... but consider this... as you said it takes longer... what if it takes so long that justice never happens in your lifetime? How do you think that can affect someone?

That is an excellent question and I'm not sure how to answer it.  Here's what I tend to think about when though.  I too am a minority and I know that if I'd been born 50 or 60 years ago, my life would have been very different.  I know that the United States (where I'm from also) has even changed since the 70's when my mom was younger.  I can't even begin to imagine what my great, great, great grandparents were thinking when they were slaves.  I'm sure they dreamt of freedom, maybe even fought for it, but I imagine it would be difficult knowing that they may never see it.

Still––and this might sound slightly naive, I'd have to think that I can not sully my cause by steeping to the level of those who oppress me.  Certainly, it's a simplistic view, and certainly much more difficult in practice but then again living is essentially a difficult thing.  I suppose in the end we simply must hold onto our convictions lest we become the incarnation of what we are fighting.  Not much of a Nietzsche fan, but I feel that "gazing into the abyss" as he terms it allows that darkness to filter back right on in and it becomes nearly impossible to separate yourself from it.  Apt for Anders I think, to not know where you begin and end.

It could very well push them into say "starting a war"! At least when a war is started over something there's action being taken. Again I am not saying this is a good or bad thing just that it is understandable to get frustrated when you feel like nothing is being done or what is being done moves at such a snails pace you'll be dead before you ever get to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

It's a feeling I deal with every day when I read the news. I know I will never see equality in my life time   I'm 35 years old I came out at 15 and it's taken 20 years for any signficant change in equality for people like me and yet still I'm a 2nd class citizen for the most part. How many more decades will it take? I can write all the letters I want. Donate to organizations that fight for my rights. But none of that will change the fact that it will probably be several decades, perhaps more than a hundred years, before my being different becomes a non issue. And even then it may never happen at all.

I guess the plight of the mages and Anders specifically is something that touches very close to home for me. I get to see children who are like me taking their own lives every day because the majority is telling them they are less than human, they are wrong, they are dangerous, they are evil. I see people like me have their homes vandalized with graffiti or be burned down by those who hate us. I see the people who hate us justify the attrocities they commit to their fellow man in the name of a religion that I don't even follow but their will is imposed upon me and the quality of my life is diminished because of it. And then they have the audacity to claim THEY are being discriminated against whenever policy is suggested that would protect me from them or give me the same rights they have.

Again I can't say what Anders does is right. I probably couldn't do it however tempted I might be, but I can understand why he did it. Why he felt the need to bring that conflict to a head and force it to be confronted full on and not just talked about on the sidelines with little progress being made so slowly generations would pass before you could see the changes. And what he did was the only way he could see to make it happen. Right or wrong it began change in a big way.

The American Revolution was not so different. When the colonies rose up to break from from the British Empire there was violence... a great a deal of it. While I can't claim to know the specifics (my history is very rusty) the Boston Massacre was one of the violent events that sparked the American Revolutonary War. A war that changed the very nature of America and created the United States we have today. War brings change violently and yes there are casualties but the change comes and it tends to come in big ways and at a much faster pace.

I can't argue with that either.  It's not fair for you and others to go through that.   I'm sure at times it must be pretty trying, but perhaps it is the little victories that make the fight worth the effort, no? 

I think Anders will get a changed world, and I'm curious to see if it is the one he would have wanted!  Need MOAR Dragon Age!

[Kyriani Agrivar]

Village Idiot wrote...
I think Anders will get a changed world, and I'm curious to see if it is the one he would have wanted!  Need MOAR Dragon Age!

I agree totally... thats sorta why I chose to keep Anders with me after the event. I wanted him to see the world his actions would create. For good or ill I wanted him to live with the consequences of his actions and not have a quick easy way out. No "i started a revolution you guys have fun i'm outty!" for you mister!

And thank you for being so kind in your reply. Sometimes I can get a little "soap boxy" and not everyone appreciates topics getting so intertwined with real world feelings.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 24 mars 2011 - 11:47 .

[hsbVARGA]

WOW! This thread went from something useful to totally pointless and stupid like right away!! Thanks guys!

[Kyriani Agrivar]

hsbVARGA wrote...

WOW! This thread went from something useful to totally pointless and stupid like right away!! Thanks guys!

My apologies if I derailed the topic.

[Jenova65]

Tirigon wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Ander's is whiny with no legitimate reason. Plus he's entirely close-minded.

WHAT?!

THE ENTIRE KIRKWALL CIRCLE IS A REASON FOR ANDERS TO BE "WHINY", AS IS HIS PAST!!!!!!!!

F*ck´s sake some people don´t have a clue......

OR......................... Are entitled to their opinion, just as you are  shouting ^ isn't really necessary. There are plenty of opinions on here I don't particularly *agree* with. Best thing is a reasoned response, not yelling at folk. 

[Tirigon]

Village Idiot wrote...


I tried to bring this up before but I really think the best way to show someone that you aren't dangerous is avoid embodying what people fear.  Justice can be achieved without violence.  It might take longer, and of course there might still be bloodshed, but that does not nullify the viability of a peaceful revolution. 

Well i doubt in kirkwall´s situation a peaceful solution would have been possible.
If Anders hadn´t started a war, sooner or later one of the other parties would have.
Apparently the anti-mages´s leader´s state of mind was getting worse and worse due to you-know-what, and eventually they would have resorted to violence either way.

Generally speaking (and this is, very sadly, true in Real Life too) - while justice CAN be achieved without violence, it usually IS NOT. That is the problem.

[Tirigon]

Jenova65 wrote...
OR......................... Are entitled to their opinion, just as you are  shouting ^ isn't really necessary. There are plenty of opinions on here I don't particularly *agree* with. Best thing is a reasoned response, not yelling at folk. 

Entitled to an opinion - surely. Entitled to spreading blatant lies? I think not.

[F-C]

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...

I don't look at Anders as close minded but rather as someone personally affected by the plight of mages. How can he not be he IS a mage. It's very easy for someone not living your life to be dismissive of your problems, especially when they aren't the same as you. It's not unlike discrimination in today's society. Sure there are people on both sides. Some compassionate others totally against you. But only you know what you're going through and only those like you can truly understand how it feels.

When he's telling you about what happens to mages he's not just telling you the story of some nameless faceless mage... he's telling you about what happened to him as a child. How he was ripped from home... how his parents were threatened to stay away from him or lose everything. He's angry about what happened to himself. He's angry that it keeps happening to others. He doesn't believe diplomacy will make things better only maintain the status quo. He passionately believes that needs to change. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) he has the power to bring that change about.

As a minority myself if I had the power to make the world completely accepting of people like me and even other minorities who are different from me... even if doing so robs them of the choice... or possibly resulted in one or a several injuries or even deaths... if I am truly honest with myself I would have to say I'd be tempted to do so. Someone who hasn't been oppressed in some way can't truly grasp the weight of how that feels. how powerless you feel when the majority stands against you. And depending on the severity of the circumstances (like in Anders case seeing what happened to Karl, someone he cared for) it can cause a person to reach a breaking point... a point where they feel enough is enough... a point where ANY action that stops the oppression becomes an option. Much like how many mages turn to blood magic.

I'm not saying what is done is "right" or "wrong"... but I can certainly understand why it happens... and I can agree that sometimes it NEEDS to happen. To quote DA:O "Andraste changed the world through violent rebellion against the Tevinter Imperium. She didn't write them a strongly-worded letter." Our own real life history backs that up.

The simplest analogy I can think of is this: Sometimes you have a break a few eggs to make an omelet.

trying to justify the actions of a sociopath

cute.

i would have respected anders had he gone after say meredith.

what he did though was no better than some sociopath we lock away in a cell... or just execute.

Modifié par F-C, 25 mars 2011 - 12:46 .

[DJBare]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
Riiiiiight... Because a sl*tty pirate lady with an itch "down there" is quite clearly talking about the zit on her shoulder when she goes to Anders for medicine. 

Given the apparant time period in question, you would have been hard pressed to find anyone, male or female that did not have some disease, STD's would have been especially rife among the nobles, they just hid it better.

[Hatchetman77]

Well Anders is from the Feraldin Circle and that was actually pretty fairly run with a relativley even handed Knight Commander.  In Awakenings he really didn't care about the mages plight, even agreeing with Wynne when you met her in Amaranthine that the Isolationists just up and leaving the circle would be disasterous.  He just wanted to be free of the circle himself.  Anders from Awakenings would never approve of what happened in DA2 because he knew the consequences the mages would suffer.  Anders + Justice makes him whiney and closed minded.

One of my favorite party chatter involves Anders and Merrill when Anders just talks about how dangerous demons are and Merrill brings up Justice and says "I know that ALL spirits are dangerous, not just demons. I'm sorry that you didn't".  It really made Anders look like a closed minded hypocrite.  

[sestrensaz]

I have to admit, my preference was for Fenris too. I really enjoyed friendmancing Fenris while playing a mage; I thought it would play nicely into the story since Fenris views magic as the root of everything bad in his life, the romantic irony of falling in love with a mage was too appealing for me to pass up; I wanted to see how that angle played out.

There are people who find it hypocritical to friendmance Fenris as a mage, but I played my Hawke as an outwardly easygoing sort; mostly choosing the charming/humorous responses unless the s**t really hit the fan.  So I see her as not being fanatical about mages as 'her people' like Anders is. I think my Hawke is more of the view that a person's worth is in what they do, not what they are (which also works for her falling in love with an elf too) so she feels no particular kinship with other mages.  I play her as simply feeling that locking anyone up for something they 'might do' is wrong, and I clashed with Fenris on the issue several times. I got the occassional +rivalry for it, but I still managed to turn it around and max friendship with him too.  This I think makes it more believable to me that she wouldn't take offence to Fenris' views, that and of course the fact Hawke's own experiences with blood magic haven't been a bed of roses either.

I was tempted to go for Anders for a while, but seeing the dramatic personality change from Awakening just grated on me too much, as well as his voice change and then having his old voice actor still be in the game as another character! Every scene with Cullen just annoyed the hell out of me, because all I could hear was the good old Anders of the past. *sniffle*

Anders is ridiculously easy too, I think after the second conversation he's talking of how a year ago he would have been all over Hawke like a rash.  Fenris is more of a challenge, and us ladies like a challenge; so to return to your original question - why do people seem to prefer Fenris?  Well, why do you think attractive male leads in fiction, so obviously designed to attract women, tend to have broken pasts?

*cough* Most extreme example I can think of is Edward Cullen. *cough*

It's because women love brooding men with dark pasts who have suffered to survive; they dream of being the one to fix it all for them - be that ray of sunshine which helps them to see the world isn't such a terrible place after all. It's crazy but hey, women like fixing their broken men.

Anders does fit partially into that category too, but in my opinion, his dark appeal is cancelled out by his fanatacism; especially since it's hypocritical fanaticism.  He doesn't seem to notice he has become the very thing he hates most by viewing every Templar as exactly the same - evil mage tormentors.  Anders seems to demand for mages that which he would not grant to Templars himself, which is the benefit of the doubt.  It's that aspect of his personality, tragic past or not, that really bugs me about him most.

Modifié par sestrensaz, 25 mars 2011 - 03:34 .

[Kyriani Agrivar]

F-C wrote...
trying to justify the actions of a sociopath

cute.

i would have respected anders had he gone after say meredith.

what he did though was no better than some sociopath we lock away in a cell... or just execute.

Sadly you seem to have mistaken my explanation as a justification. I was merely trying to explain what drove Anders to his ultimate action. At no point did I say he was doing the right thing or not. Going after Meredith would do little to help the plight of mages. Meredith isn't the problem in Ander's eyes. The whole system is. A system governed by the Chantry. And the only way to make change happen immediately is to strike at the heart of the governing institution and force both sides of the issue into action.

I also don't think it's fair to classify Anders as a sociopath.

Definition of a Sociopath: a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

I'm sorry but Anders just doesn't fit that definition. Anders is a person who is very socially "normal" when people arent trying to kill him, imprison him, or perform a lobotomy on him or people he cares about. Anders also has a sense of moral responsibility. He fully expects you to punish him for his actions in fact he's counting on it. He doesn't want to live with the guilt (i.e. sense of moral responsibility) of his actions and hopes you'll give him the easy out. He even goes so far as to ensure you arent willfully complicit in his actions so the burden of guilt is on his shoulders alone. That said I won't deny he has severe psychological issues even without factoring in Justice/Vengence. But I find such issues to be expected when you live in a society that treats you the way mages are treated and in particularl how mages in Kirkwall are treated.

Anders is a frustrated individual. One whose life was uprooted and made difficult unfairly in his eyes. He wants change for his people and he wants it now, not 10 or 20 or 100 years from now. He was given no evidence at all throughout his life that change would ever happen through diplomacy. Even King Alistair's boon to the mage warden was ultimately revoked by the Chantry. He did the only thing he could think of to FORCE change to happen. I'm not saying it was right... even Anders doesn't think it's right... but he felt he had no other recourse to help bring his people out of oppression and virtual slavery. Especially considering the damning actions of the Kirkwall templars who violated Chantry law by making mages who passed their Harrowings tranquil. Not to mention their other abuses.

Consider from Anders point of view the templars were able to commit such attrocities with impunity, while any mage who did anything (real or imagined) wrong was treated harshly and punished. Consider also how any individual would react to having a parent/sibling/loved one hurt or killed by the local authroities... and seeing those local authorities going after everyone just like you with or without just cause. He wanted to save his people.

We'll just have to see in future Dragon Age games/stories if his actions actually lead to the result he hoped for.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 25 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[EccentricSage]

Bluumberry wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Been watching Youtube vids. Already have developed a dislike of Fenris. No personality, melodramatic, and completely flat VA.

The moment you say that Gideon Emery is flat, you loose any credit your opinion might have had.

Even if you might not like how his voice sounds, the guy has talent and calling him completely flat demeans video game voice acting itself.

Gosh, I'm sorry.  I did not know that I am not allowed to have an opinion. 

His delivery of lines in every scene I've seen was completely monotone.  Even when he laughed, it didn't sound like a real laugh.  He almost sounds more like a parody of one of those cliche brooding heros you see in anime and JRPGs. 

And I don't have a problem with the way his voice sounds.  I have a problem with the lack of any emotion except angst and any tone except for serious.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 25 mars 2011 - 02:26 .

[AngelicMachinery]

WoahitsMuna wrote...

Haha well i mean look at isabella's outfit! does that not answer your question enough? not to mention about 5 minutes after you meet her she offers for you to go see her in her room for a "fun time." i certainly doubt she was talking about playing scrabble.

I assumed we were going to play Diamond Back...

[EccentricSage]

Bluumberry wrote...

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Ander's is whiny with no legitimate reason. Plus he's entirely close-minded.

Fenris is whiny for more legitimate reasons (having been enslaved, tortured, oppressed and put through awful magical rituals). Plus, he's open-minded, and even admits that some mages (Hawke or Bethany) are "strong" where most are not. And he's willing to put his beliefs aside for the sake of friends.

No legitimate reason??? Dude... people like him are ripped from their families, locked away in a tower, forced to fight demons or suffer the equivalent of a lobotomy, and generally used as slave labor in many cases. I'd say he has ALOT to whine about.

DA2 changed my mind about the treatment of mages. If you remember, Wynne comments on how many never even make it to the tower before they get killed. How exactly do you think children with magic survive outside the circle? They don't. They usually get posessed (*cough*Connor*cough*) or killed by someone else. I think the only reason mage!Hawke/Bethany survived so well is due to their father having been in the Circle originally.

Yes, mage treatment in the circle could be better, yes there are corrupter templars, but the majority of mages can't be trusted to govern themselves. Or didn't the amount of blood mages in the game clue you in?

And as was said before, Fenris actually agrees that not all mages are bad and such while Anders would kill every templar in sight basically.

They usually don't survive because they are usually murdered, if not by townspeople who call the 'witches', then by some of the more sadistic Templars who see any sign of resistance as reason enough to slaughter them.

In Origins, the Dalish seemed to look after their own.  Yeah, the ONE keeper had used a curse which backfired, but that problem was solvable without Templars going in and slaughtering or emprisoning any one with magic.

As for the need for Templars, I think they are necassary.  I don't hate them.  It's fanaticism that is the problem.  Of course you have to have a police force of some sort capable of dealing with the powers of mages, but that does not mean it should be ok for them to emprison mages who have not yet commited any crime, dissalow mages from policing their own kind, disalow mages from having families, or slaughter mages they suspect might be possessed or controled by blood mages, despite the fact that the Litany of Andrala can free people from mind control, and despite the fact that the circle could just do a ritual powered by lyrium to confront and slay the demon without harming the poor mage.