102 réponses à ce sujet

[Missouri Tigers]

It's not like the Illusive Man can just jump on it and say "Mine!"  Isn't it likely that Shepard will have a choice in ME3 to hand it over to the Citadel Council instead of Cerberus.  The IFF on the Normandy to get through the Omega 4 Relay can be copied, yes?  That means that if Shepard wants, the Council/Citadel forces can be given access to the base.  If so, Shepard will determine the use of the base/technology more than the Illusive Man, so keeping the base at the end isn't exactly securing human dominance in the galaxy.   Shepard can still remain a good guy who wants to cooperate with other races even if he chooses to keep the base at the end.  Any flaws in my logic?

Also, does the Illusive Man even have access to the base?  The IFF is on Shepard's ship, so the Illusive Man/Cerberus doesn't have the ability to go through the Omega 4 Relay .  When Shepard decided not to blow up the base he didn't hand it over to the Illusive Man like squad members said, did he? 

[Almostfaceman]

If you're not trolling, you obviously have never played the ending where you decide not to blow up the base.

[Missouri Tigers]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The base goes to Cerberus because Cerberus is in the best position to claim it. They have replicated the IFF and have an entire salvage fleet standing by. What could the Council or Alliance do? By the time they got on the scene Cerberus would stripped much of the base anyway. That is assuming you could ever convince them to go there in the first place.

It could take months for the Council or Alliance or anyone else to make a decision. It might take them longer to replicate the IFF as well because they have less experience with that technology. Cerberus worked on the derelict Reaper and recovered the original IFF.

Cerberus never got the original IFF, though.  Shepard recovered it and installed it on his ship, yes?  The Illusive Man never got a copy of it, did he?  No ship but the Normandy can go through the Omega 4 Relay.  Unless they copied it in the game and I missed it, which is possible.  I see no reason that Edi couldn't replicate the IFF and allow Shepard to give it to the council instead of Cerberus, allowing them to take the base and examine the technology for the benefit of all council races.

Modifié par Missouri Tigers, 23 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[Frraksurred]

TIM forwarded all known Reaper protocols to EDI when integrating the IFF, it is feasible to assume she returned the final results back to him before going through the Omega 4 relay.

The base decision was one of the Paragon / Renegade choices I had issues with. While my Paragon Shep had no intention of using the tech the same way the Reapers did, there was still a ton that could have been learned from it.

[Inutaisho7996]

With all the monitoring devices that were on the SR-2, it's very plausible that Cerberus knows how to make another IFF.

[Tennessee88]

Missouri Tigers wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The base goes to Cerberus because Cerberus is in the best position to claim it. They have replicated the IFF and have an entire salvage fleet standing by. What could the Council or Alliance do? By the time they got on the scene Cerberus would stripped much of the base anyway. That is assuming you could ever convince them to go there in the first place.

It could take months for the Council or Alliance or anyone else to make a decision. It might take them longer to replicate the IFF as well because they have less experience with that technology. Cerberus worked on the derelict Reaper and recovered the original IFF.

Cerberus never got the original IFF, though.  Shepard recovered it and installed it on his ship, yes?  The Illusive Man never got a copy of it, did he?  No ship but the Normandy can go through the Omega 4 Relay.  Unless they copied it in the game and I missed it, which is possible.  I see no reason that Edi couldn't replicate the IFF and allow Shepard to give it to the council instead of Cerberus, allowing them to take the base and examine the technology for the benefit of all council races.

Between the save the base but everyone is dead ending and Retribution it is pretty clear that Cerberus has the ability to travel through the relay.

Regardless the entire save or destroy the base was a rather stupid way to end the game.

[aimlessgun]

OP, you are not the only one who has thought this. I've argued about it extensively here in the past, and really the only way to justify the lack of "tell Alliance/Council/Galaxy" is from a game standpoint: they simply didn't have the resources to write more than 2 outcomes.

Saphra Deden wrote...

The base goes to Cerberus because Cerberus is in the best position to claim it. They have replicated the IFF and have an entire salvage fleet standing by. What could the Council or Alliance do? By the time they got on the scene Cerberus would stripped much of the base anyway. That is assuming you could ever convince them to go there in the first place.

It could take months for the Council or Alliance or anyone else to make a decision. It might take them longer to replicate the IFF as well because they have less experience with that technology. Cerberus worked on the derelict Reaper and recovered the original IFF.

That's a pretty extreme assumption. Why would Cerberus have a fleet standing by for a base they didn't even know for sure existed until Shep showed up and found out it wasn't a home world. And TIM calls you literally at the last second with the idea of saving the base. And you seriously think you could somehow strip a base the size of a small moon before anyone else showed up?

I'd say the Alliance or Council are in an equal position to claim the base. Just hand waving and saying "oooh Alliance is corrupt and ineffective" is a bit ridiculous if you forward Hackett tons of data about a technological goldmine. They'd trip over themselves to get out there.

Further, considering you have a brilliant scientist in Mordin and a brilliant tech expert in Tali and a brilliant AI in EDI, you think you couldn't get some pretty useful data out of the base yourself to pass on?

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 12:43 .

[aimlessgun]

Another big issue with the ending decision: through the whole game you have a PR problem. Nobody believes in the reapers. Nobody takes the threat seriously. Blah blah blah. Then the story gives you a potential solution, or at least some support, for your side of the story, and then pretends it couldn't be used as such.

The first thing I would do after saving the base is fly back to the Citadel and pick up my good friend Emily Wong.

Lastly, if this discussion is actually going to happen again, let's not get sidetracked by trying to predict outcomes, because we can argue until we're blue in the face with assumptions about the universe without getting anywhere.

The real question is whether Shepard would reasonably think that there was a 3rd alternative in the base decision: save the base but not keep it secret. Not whether it would work out with unicorns and rainbows.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 12:57 .

[Whatever42]

The alliance or the council would still have to send a fleet into the Terminus Systems. That would spark a huge incident. They'd have to be pretty damn serious about the whole thing. That would take more than a Hackett decision. Earth Alliance would have to agree to possibly starting a war.

They might do it, sure. But it would take time to mobilize and duplicte the IFF and TIM would know and strip the place, as mentioned. They wouldn't get much.

[Zulu_DFA]

aimlessgun wrote...

That's a pretty extreme assumption. Why would Cerberus have a fleet standing by for a base they didn't even know for sure existed until Shep showed up and found out it wasn't a home world. And TIM calls you literally at the last second with the idea of saving the base. And you seriously think you could somehow strip a base the size of a small moon before anyone else showed up?

Cerberus knew that something was there beyond the O4 relay and prepared accordingly. That is, Cerberus was probably prepared for somethoing way bigger than the Collector Base. How? Just listen to TIM: "When the time comes, I'll notify the Alliance personally".

It's NOT Shepard's job to handle the politics. Shepard is just a Cerberus' enforcer (and a bit of a recruiter). He can, of course, defy this role, by blowing up the C-Base, but it's still a silly act of gambling with the Galaxy's fate at stake.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
TIM: "When the time comes, I'll notify the Alliance personally".

When does TIM say that? I thought it was regarding Horizon.

[emmanuelsieyes]

The plot says so.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

That's a pretty extreme assumption. Why would Cerberus have a fleet standing by for a base they didn't even know for sure existed until Shep showed up and found out it wasn't a home world. And TIM calls you literally at the last second with the idea of saving the base. And you seriously think you could somehow strip a base the size of a small moon before anyone else showed up?

Cerberus knew that something was there beyond the O4 relay and prepared accordingly. That is, Cerberus was probably prepared for somethoing way bigger than the Collector Base. How? Just listen to TIM: "When the time comes, I'll notify the Alliance personally".

It's NOT Shepard's job to handle the politics. Shepard is just a Cerberus' enforcer (and a bit of a recruiter). He can, of course, defy this role, by blowing up the C-Base, but it's still a silly act of gambling with the Galaxy's fate at stake.

Of course, that's YOUR Shepards job.  MY Shepards job is to save the galaxy, and if he has to play some politics along the way, he'll do it.  Like trying to convince the quarians to hold off on attacking the geth, or convincing Exo Geni to use Zu's Hope as promotional material so the colony doesn't get shut down, or using his public image as the first human Spectre to promote better relations with aliens.

End of line.

[aimlessgun]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The alliance or the council would still have to send a fleet into the Terminus Systems. That would spark a huge incident. They'd have to be pretty damn serious about the whole thing. That would take more than a Hackett decision. Earth Alliance would have to agree to possibly starting a war.

They might do it, sure. But it would take time to mobilize and duplicte the IFF and TIM would know and strip the place, as mentioned. They wouldn't get much.

You're assuming it would take a while to replicate the IFF. One can just as easily assume it wouldn't take months, considering you have a working copy on hand. And how about my point that you yourself could personally conduct studies with the Normandy for the Alliance/Council?

And as I said before, stripping a base the size of a small moon would take a long time. Further, I get the impression Cerberus is going to set up shop there, not try to dismantle an entire planetoid and bring it through a relay.

As for the whole "can't send stuff into the Terminus", you're not sending some huge war fleet.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

That's
a pretty extreme assumption. Why would Cerberus have a fleet standing
by for a base they didn't even know for sure existed until Shep showed
up and found out it wasn't a home world. And TIM calls you literally at
the last second with the idea of saving the base. And you seriously
think you could somehow strip a base the size of a small moon before
anyone else showed up?

Cerberus knew that something
was there beyond the O4 relay and prepared accordingly. That is,
Cerberus was probably prepared for somethoing way bigger than the
Collector Base. How? Just listen to TIM: "When the time comes, I'll
notify the Alliance personally".

It's NOT Shepard's job to handle
the politics. Shepard is just a Cerberus' enforcer (and a bit of a
recruiter). He can, of course, defy this role, by blowing up the C-Base,
but it's still a silly act of gambling with the Galaxy's fate at
stake.

I don't think that quote does anything to prove that Cerberus had a salvage fleet ready. It's fine that that is how you imagine your game universe, but don't think other people are going to believe it as canon. As for Shep's role, TIM doesn't think it's Shep's job to handle politics. That doesn't mean it's a good thing that you're railroaded into his vision.



And again, however it would play out exactly in the aftermath, there is no reason for Shep not to think of it as a reasonable option.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 01:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Lizardviking wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

TIM: "When the time comes, I'll notify the Alliance personally".

When does TIM say that? I thought it was regarding Horizon.

Yes it was. But I can't see why it shouldn't be taken universally. I mean, what's the difference between the Collectors on Horizon and the Collectors beyond the Omega-4?

[Zulu_DFA]

aimlessgun wrote...

As for Shep's role, TIM doesn't think it's Shep's job to handle politics. That doesn't mean it's a good thing that you're railroaded into his vision.

[Shrugs]

That's how all shooters work though. You play as a guy who is being told all the time:

Here, shoot some enemies.
Go there, shoot some enemies.
Now, go over there and push that big red button. Oh, and shoot some enemies along the way.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mars 2011 - 02:04 .

[Silmane]

TIM had a fleet ready to get to the C-Base. I don't know off the top of my head if they show this fleet showing up to the base if your Shepard survives, but if he dies, TIM instructs Joker to return Normandy to port and the very next scene is Cerberus ships dropping out of FTL at the collector base.

The Shepdeath isn't canon, no, but that scene indicates that TIM is already ready to salvage that base with or without Shepard. He already had the IFF before they went through the relay. Not only that, EDI could've done it anytime after going THROUGH the relay seeing as how TIM contacted Shepard while he was planting the explosive.

Doesn't matter how anyone imagines the playthrough, TIM was ready.

Modifié par Silmane, 23 mars 2011 - 02:00 .

[lordmorbus]

If Shepard died in the last misson and he saved the base the ending video shows tim looking at the base in a hologram. Then a bunch of Cerberus ships show up and then he smiles big. So yes they can get there.

[Silmane]

so ninjad you

[Akizora]

TIM could potentially control all collectors in the entire galaxy with the base, just like Harbinger did through the Collector General on the base. Just cause you used a pulse to destroy all collector life on the base doesn't mean there aren't collector ships out in the galaxy collecting as we speak.

[Zulu_DFA]

Akizora wrote...

TIM could potentially control all collectors in the entire galaxy with the base, just like Harbinger did through the Collector General on the base. Just cause you used a pulse to destroy all collector life on the base doesn't mean there aren't collector ships out in the galaxy collecting as we speak.

Then there would have been continued reports of colonies going missing.

[aimlessgun]

Silmane wrote...

TIM had a fleet ready to get to the C-Base. I don't know off the top of my head if they show this fleet showing up to the base if your Shepard survives, but if he dies, TIM instructs Joker to return Normandy to port and the very next scene is Cerberus ships dropping out of FTL at the collector base.

The Shepdeath isn't canon, no, but that scene indicates that TIM is already ready to salvage that base with or without Shepard. He already had the IFF before they went through the relay. Not only that, EDI could've done it anytime after going THROUGH the relay seeing as how TIM contacted Shepard while he was planting the explosive.

Doesn't matter how anyone imagines the playthrough, TIM was ready.

Thanks for this info, had never done a "Shepard dies" playthrough

Makes the decision slightly more palatable. But the assumption that the Alliance couldn't get to a base the size of a small moon before Cerberus stripped it seems absurd to me. In addition to the fact that you can personally study it. And since you have one of the most advanced warships in the galaxy, you can interfere with Cerberus operations (unless Cerberus has dreadnoughts to protect them?).

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

As for
Shep's role, TIM doesn't think it's Shep's job to handle politics. That
doesn't mean it's a good thing that you're railroaded into his vision.

[Shrugs]

That's how all shooters work though. You play as a guy who is being told all the time:

Here, shoot some enemies.
Go there, shoot some enemies.
Now, go over there and push that big red button. Oh, and shoot some enemies along the way.

This may be true, but it burns a little in ME because as someone pointed out above, you do do some political stuff elsewhere. And don't we all assume you'll be doing extensive political stuff in ME3?

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[jayred vas normandy]

lordmorbus wrote...

If Shepard died in the last misson and he saved the base the ending video shows tim looking at the base in a hologram. Then a bunch of Cerberus ships show up and then he smiles big. So yes they can get there.

glad someone said this, my brain was starting to hurt.