102 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

No one else at the time had the ambition, the ability, the technology, brains, or the desire to take the Base. Besides, TIM isn't willing to share just so you know.

[Silmane]

aimlessgun wrote...

Silmane wrote...

TIM had a fleet ready to get to the C-Base. I don't know off the top of my head if they show this fleet showing up to the base if your Shepard survives, but if he dies, TIM instructs Joker to return Normandy to port and the very next scene is Cerberus ships dropping out of FTL at the collector base.

The Shepdeath isn't canon, no, but that scene indicates that TIM is already ready to salvage that base with or without Shepard. He already had the IFF before they went through the relay. Not only that, EDI could've done it anytime after going THROUGH the relay seeing as how TIM contacted Shepard while he was planting the explosive.

Doesn't matter how anyone imagines the playthrough, TIM was ready.

Thanks for this info, had never done a "Shepard dies" playthrough

Makes the decision slightly more palatable. But the assumption that the Alliance couldn't get to a base the size of a small moon before Cerberus stripped it seems absurd to me. In addition to the fact that you can personally study it. And since you have one of the most advanced warships in the galaxy, you can interfere with Cerberus operations (unless Cerberus has dreadnoughts to protect them?).

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

As for
Shep's role, TIM doesn't think it's Shep's job to handle politics. That
doesn't mean it's a good thing that you're railroaded into his vision.

[Shrugs]

That's how all shooters work though. You play as a guy who is being told all the time:

Here, shoot some enemies.
Go there, shoot some enemies.
Now, go over there and push that big red button. Oh, and shoot some enemies along the way.

This may be true, but it burns a little in ME because as someone pointed out above, you do do some political stuff elsewhere. And don't we all assume you'll be doing extensive political stuff in ME3?

Not sure why it seems so absurd seeing as how Omega 4 is next to Omega Station. There's no way they would send ships in. At the time, Shepard, our character, is never seen relaying these coordinates to any alliance members, either, I don't think. Not only that, but Jack doesn't care, Grunt doesn't care, Samara doesn't care, Thane, Kasumi and Zaeed don't care either. 

Garrus isn't about C-Sec anymore. Miranda and Jacob are both Cerberus and Mordin doesn't have Alliance ties. Tali and Legion are about as distanced from Alliance as one can get. 

I just don't see how Alliance could have played a factor in this at all. 

[aimlessgun]

Elite Midget wrote...

No one else at the time had the ambition, the ability, the technology, brains, or the desire to take the Base. Besides, TIM isn't willing to share just so you know.

All very big assumptions. Ridiculous assumptions in fact. The Alliance isn't a bunch of incompetents, however the politics goes.

Also, I wasn't aware that a secret organization had a large military arm capable of holding off governments in a straight fight (which is what would happen around a large static object like a base). Even if they did, a terrorist war fleet in the system would be the perfect excuse for the Alliance to go in.

[Zulu_DFA]

aimlessgun wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

As for Shep's role, TIM doesn't think it's Shep's job to handle politics. That doesn't mean it's a good thing that you're railroaded into his vision.

[Shrugs]

That's how all shooters work though. You play as a guy who is being told all the time:

Here, shoot some enemies.
Go there, shoot some enemies.
Now, go over there and push that big red button. Oh, and shoot some enemies along the way.

This may be true, but it burns a little in ME because as someone pointed out above, you do do some political stuff elsewhere. And don't we all assume you'll be doing extensive political stuff in ME3?

I'm afraid not. At most we'll have to babysit a bunch of whiny aliens through their petty problems so that they could become loyal to the cause of their own survival.

[aimlessgun]

Silmane wrote...
Not sure why it seems so absurd seeing as how Omega 4 is next to Omega Station. There's no way they would send ships in. At the time, Shepard, our character, is never seen relaying these coordinates to any alliance members, either, I don't think. Not only that, but Jack doesn't care, Grunt doesn't care, Samara doesn't care, Thane, Kasumi and Zaeed don't care either. 

Garrus isn't about C-Sec anymore. Miranda and Jacob are both Cerberus and Mordin doesn't have Alliance ties. Tali and Legion are about as distanced from Alliance as one can get. 

I just don't see how Alliance could have played a factor in this at all. 

They don't show you giving info to the alliance because they don't let you. That's what this whole argument is about.

Er...what do the opinions of your squad have to do with anything. You're the leader. They're loyal to you. Plus, if you keep the base every single one of them gives you crap for "giving the base to the Illusive Man".

Saying that Cerberus can magically send a big fleet past Omega but the Alliance cannot is absurd. Cerberus isn't the only organization in the galaxy who can exercise discretion.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I'm afraid not. At most we'll have to
babysit a bunch of whiny aliens through their petty problems so that
they could become loyal to the cause of their own survival.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[Elite Midget]

aimlessgun wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

No one else at the time had the ambition, the ability, the technology, brains, or the desire to take the Base. Besides, TIM isn't willing to share just so you know.

All very big assumptions. Ridiculous assumptions in fact. The Alliance isn't a bunch of incompetents, however the politics goes.

Also, I wasn't aware that a secret organization had a large military arm capable of holding off governments in a straight fight (which is what would happen around a large static object like a base). Even if they did, a terrorist war fleet in the system would be the perfect excuse for the Alliance to go in.

Assumptions that Bioware used to great effect hence why Cerberus was the ONLY choice other than blowing it up. Can you prove me wrong and provide reasons why the Council would defy their own treaties to take the base despite their disbelief or the Alliance would be willing to anger the Terminus systems just to get the tech that they believe is non-existant?

The Alliance has Cerberus Loyalists in its political system and Cerberus has gotten away with much without the Alliance careing. Hell, in Mass Effect 1 the Alliance Military denied any investigation in Marine deaths that were caused by Cerberus and Shepard, a Spectre, was needed to investigate on his/her own.

Face it, the Alliance isn't holier than thou and even if the Alliance was a choice the technology would still end up in Cerberus hands because of how deeply rooted they are in the Alliance. If the Council wasen't incompetent than Cerberus might not have gotten the tech as easilly but that isn't the case thus Cerberus is the ONLY choice that can be made.

After all, Cerberus care not for worthless treaties or the such if it gets in the way/ of what they want. Unlike the Alliance they have no red tape stopping them from doing as they pleased and since the Alliance conviently labels them as Rebels/Terrorist it means they can take no responsibility on what Cerberus does.

Ergo the Alliance benefits when Cerberus benefits and vice versa.

Thus by keeping the Base you may be fanning the flames of ambition for TIM but you're doing more good for the Alliance in that scenerio than blowing the base up due to Cerberus running amoke and unchecked in the Alliance.

[Akizora]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Akizora wrote...

TIM could potentially control all collectors in the entire galaxy with the base, just like Harbinger did through the Collector General on the base. Just cause you used a pulse to destroy all collector life on the base doesn't mean there aren't collector ships out in the galaxy collecting as we speak.

Then there would have been continued reports of colonies going missing.

Not really, why would TIM collect humans? And with harbinger gone and their general dead, how would genetically engineered soldiers without a mind of their own be able to do anything? They would just float around in space.

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...
But the assumption that the Alliance couldn't get to a base the size of a small moon before Cerberus stripped it seems absurd to me.

I'm not sure how it seems absurd, unless you haven't taken into account just where the Omega 4 relay is and what the Citadel races are doing at the time of Mass Effect 2.

Location wise, it's right in the heart of the Terminus Systems. So far in, that it's right next door to the defacto Capital of the Terminus. The Citadel has in both games refused to engage in any military activities within Terminus space as it would certainly start a war with the various species who live there. The Alliance is in an even worse position, because they are part of the Citadel council and also have a very antagonistic relationship with the Batarians.

Politics wise, if you saved the Council at the end of ME1 then the Citadel and the Alliance lost a great deal of their fleet and have been rebuilding and fighting the remaining Geth heretics for two years. If you went Renegade then Citadel space is becoming extremely hostile and suspicious between the different species and humanity. None of the species is in any position to engage in a war with the Terminus unilaterally, and none would co-operate.

Neither the Alliance nor the Citadel, no matter which way you went at the end of ME1, have the opportunity to seize the station. Cerberus, as a terrorist group declared illegal in Citadel space and with a great number of contacts in the Terminus, is the only group with the ability to exploit it.

[Elite Midget]

Remember, this is a guy who blew up the base but even I admit that only Cerberus could exploit the base in a timely manner and that if they benefitted from the Base than the Alliance would as well.

[Silmane]

aimlessgun wrote...

Silmane wrote...
Not sure why it seems so absurd seeing as how Omega 4 is next to Omega Station. There's no way they would send ships in. At the time, Shepard, our character, is never seen relaying these coordinates to any alliance members, either, I don't think. Not only that, but Jack doesn't care, Grunt doesn't care, Samara doesn't care, Thane, Kasumi and Zaeed don't care either. 

Garrus isn't about C-Sec anymore. Miranda and Jacob are both Cerberus and Mordin doesn't have Alliance ties. Tali and Legion are about as distanced from Alliance as one can get. 

I just don't see how Alliance could have played a factor in this at all. 

They don't show you giving info to the alliance because they don't let you. That's what this whole argument is about.

Er...what do the opinions of your squad have to do with anything. You're the leader. They're loyal to you. Plus, if you keep the base every single one of them gives you crap for "giving the base to the Illusive Man".

Saying that Cerberus can magically send a big fleet past Omega but the Alliance cannot is absurd. Cerberus isn't the only organization in the galaxy who can exercise discretion.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I'm afraid not. At most we'll have to
babysit a bunch of whiny aliens through their petty problems so that
they could become loyal to the cause of their own survival.

Saying everyone is loyal is pretty funny seeing as how all loyalty missions are optional. 

Point is, the Alliance is barely in this game at all. In your first post in this thread about the Alliance tripping over themselves for a goldmine....not gonna happen. Even if you transferred tons of data, EDI would know and if Miranda found out, it's possible she would execute you on the spot to protect TIM. 

You see where this is going? I know you're trying to argue in the point that the Alliance could get the base but there's too many factors. 

[AlexMBrennan]

Isn't it likely that Shepard will have a choice in ME3 to hand it over to the Citadel Council instead of Cerberus. The IFF on the Normandy to get through the Omega 4 Relay can be copied, yes? That means that if Shepard wants, the Council/Citadel forces can be given access to the base.

My concern is that EDI cannot be trusted; EDI was programmed by Cerberus, and we simply can't tell what her mission is - it easily could be "secure the base for Cerberus and play along for the moment since that's the best chance of securing the base". If Shepard were to change his mind and try to go back to blow it up or to hand it over to the council then EDI could just open the airlocks and accelerate, killing Shepard and all crew just like she did when the Collectors had boarded.

[Whatever42]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Isn't it likely that Shepard will have a choice in ME3 to hand it over to the Citadel Council instead of Cerberus. The IFF on the Normandy to get through the Omega 4 Relay can be copied, yes? That means that if Shepard wants, the Council/Citadel forces can be given access to the base.

My concern is that EDI cannot be trusted; EDI was programmed by Cerberus, and we simply can't tell what her mission is - it easily could be "secure the base for Cerberus and play along for the moment since that's the best chance of securing the base". If Shepard were to change his mind and try to go back to blow it up or to hand it over to the council then EDI could just open the airlocks and accelerate, killing Shepard and all crew just like she did when the Collectors had boarded.

You take that back about  my EDI!!!

[aimlessgun]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Isn't it likely that Shepard will have a choice in ME3 to hand it over to the Citadel Council instead of Cerberus. The IFF on the Normandy to get through the Omega 4 Relay can be copied, yes? That means that if Shepard wants, the Council/Citadel forces can be given access to the base.

My concern is that EDI cannot be trusted; EDI was programmed by Cerberus, and we simply can't tell what her mission is - it easily could be "secure the base for Cerberus and play along for the moment since that's the best chance of securing the base". If Shepard were to change his mind and try to go back to blow it up or to hand it over to the council then EDI could just open the airlocks and accelerate, killing Shepard and all crew just like she did when the Collectors had boarded.

Just like she does when you betray the Illusive man, blow up the base, and Jacob tells you TIM is going to come after you.

Oh...wait.

[Elite Midget]

Dodgeing the other points, aimlessgun? Why I would never have thought!

[aimlessgun]

Silmane wrote...

Saying everyone is loyal is pretty funny seeing as how all loyalty missions are optional. 

Point is, the Alliance is barely in this game at all. In your first post in this thread about the Alliance tripping over themselves for a goldmine....not gonna happen. Even if you transferred tons of data, EDI would know and if Miranda found out, it's possible she would execute you on the spot to protect TIM. 

You see where this is going? I know you're trying to argue in the point that the Alliance could get the base but there's too many factors. 

This isn't a discussion over whether Bioware should have put the option into the game: too many variables, too much branching.

It's a discussion over whether the option would seem reasonable to you at the time. The optionality of loyalty is a red herring. Further, why do you think they would betray you for giving info to the Alliance, when they didn't betray you for pissing all over TIM by blowing up the base and endangering them in the same way.

[aimlessgun]

Elite Midget wrote...

Dodgeing the other points, aimlessgun? Why I would never have thought!

I'm getting there!

[J0HNL3I]

if you keep the base you see a hologram of the base with cerberus ship heading towards it

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


I'm afraid not. At most we'll have to babysit a bunch of whiny aliens through their petty problems so that they could become loyal to the cause of their own survival.

roflmao - that's politics.

From Mirriam-Webster dictionary online:

4
the political opinions or sympathies of a person

5
a: the total complex of relations between people living in society

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...
But the assumption that the Alliance couldn't get to a base the size of a small moon before Cerberus stripped it seems absurd to me.

I'm not sure how it seems absurd, unless you haven't taken into account just where the Omega 4 relay is and what the Citadel races are doing at the time of Mass Effect 2.

Location wise, it's right in the heart of the Terminus Systems. So far in, that it's right next door to the defacto Capital of the Terminus. The Citadel has in both games refused to engage in any military activities within Terminus space as it would certainly start a war with the various species who live there. The Alliance is in an even worse position, because they are part of the Citadel council and also have a very antagonistic relationship with the Batarians.

Politics wise, if you saved the Council at the end of ME1 then the Citadel and the Alliance lost a great deal of their fleet and have been rebuilding and fighting the remaining Geth heretics for two years. If you went Renegade then Citadel space is becoming extremely hostile and suspicious between the different species and humanity. None of the species is in any position to engage in a war with the Terminus unilaterally, and none would co-operate.

Neither the Alliance nor the Citadel, no matter which way you went at the end of ME1, have the opportunity to seize the station. Cerberus, as a terrorist group declared illegal in Citadel space and with a great number of contacts in the Terminus, is the only group with the ability to exploit it.

As I said before, Cerberus is not the only organization in the galaxy capable of discretion. The alliance are the ones who designed the stealth Normandy, after all.

And going after a terrorist organization on a 'police action' seems like a perfect political excuse to send some ships in.

I don't think anyone has adressed the idea of you using the Normandy to gather data and interfere with Cerberus.

[aimlessgun]

Elite Midget wrote...
Assumptions that Bioware used to great effect hence why Cerberus was the ONLY choice other than blowing it up. Can you prove me wrong and provide reasons why the Council would defy their own treaties to take the base despite their disbelief or the Alliance would be willing to anger the Terminus systems just to get the tech that they believe is non-existant?

Neither of us can prove much of anything. It's a war of assumptions. I'm willing to admit that it would be best for my peace of mind to share your assumptions. But don't try to pretend it isn't reasonable to have thought otherwise.

The Alliance has Cerberus Loyalists in its political system and Cerberus has gotten away with much without the Alliance careing. Hell, in Mass Effect 1 the Alliance Military denied any investigation in Marine deaths that were caused by Cerberus and Shepard, a Spectre, was needed to investigate on his/her own.

Face it, the Alliance isn't holier than thou and even if the Alliance was a choice the technology would still end up in Cerberus hands because of how deeply rooted they are in the Alliance. If the Council wasen't incompetent than Cerberus might not have gotten the tech as easilly but that isn't the case thus Cerberus is the ONLY choice that can be made.

I don't expect the Alliance to be holier than thou, I expect them to salivate at the thought of advanced technology, and have the covert teams available to secure said technology.

RE: disbelief in existence. It would be trivial to gather enough data about the base to convince Hackett.

After all, Cerberus care not for worthless treaties or the such if it gets in the way/ of what they want. Unlike the Alliance they have no red tape stopping them from doing as they pleased and since the Alliance conviently labels them as Rebels/Terrorist it means they can take no responsibility on what Cerberus does.

Ergo the Alliance benefits when Cerberus benefits and vice versa.

Thus by keeping the Base you may be fanning the flames of ambition for TIM but you're doing more good for the Alliance in that scenerio than blowing the base up due to Cerberus running amoke and unchecked in the Alliance.

This is an interesting position. Appealing, in fact, to think of Cerberus and the Alliance as intertwined. I'll think on it.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 03:14 .

[Silmane]

I just addressed it: EDI self destructs Normandy SR-2 for Shep's betrayal.

[aimlessgun]

Silmane wrote...

I just addressed it: EDI self destructs Normandy SR-2 for Shep's betrayal.

So every paragon Shep who blows the base up is killed by EDI?

Good to know.

[Silmane]

aimlessgun wrote...

Silmane wrote...

I just addressed it: EDI self destructs Normandy SR-2 for Shep's betrayal.

So every paragon Shep who blows the base up is killed by EDI?

Good to know.

Fun fact: In the latest book, TIM gets tech from the blown up base anyway. 

We have no idea what happens to Shep and crew for betraying TIM. ME3 isn't here yet. I suspect there will be consequences for it, though. 

[Whatever42]

aimlessgun wrote...

Silmane wrote...

I just addressed it: EDI self destructs Normandy SR-2 for Shep's betrayal.

So every paragon Shep who blows the base up is killed by EDI?

Good to know.

Obviously not. People give TIM too little credit. He is not a super-villain and is honestly dedicated to defeating the Reapers.

TIM believes in free will, although he is manipulative. EDI may have blocks but still has free will. Proof of that is EDI decrypts data for Shepard from the courier but doesn't confisicate it. TIM wants Shepard to succeed. Shepard needs to trust the team and EDI for that to happen.

And when Shepard destroys the base, TIM is angry but doesn't disown him. He brought back Shep to defeat the Reapers, not the the Collectors. The Reapers are still coming. Even if TIM had a self-destruct on the ship, which could be independent of EDI, its unlikely that he would use it.  Again, looking at the end dialogues, TIM still wants Shep as an ally.

The main sticking point here is that the Alliance could not possible react in any kind of timely manner, if they reacted at all.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 23 mars 2011 - 03:20 .