102 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Silmane wrote...

I just addressed it: EDI self destructs Normandy SR-2 for Shep's betrayal.

So every paragon Shep who blows the base up is killed by EDI?

Good to know.

Obviously not. People give TIM too little credit. He is not a super-villain and is honestly dedicated to defeating the Reapers.

TIM believes in free will, although he is manipulative. EDI may have blocks but still has free will. Proof of that is EDI decrypts data for Shepard from the courier but doesn't confisicate it. TIM wants Shepard to succeed. Shepard needs to trust the team and EDI for that to happen.

And when Shepard destroys the base, TIM is angry but doesn't disown him. He brought back Shep to defeat the Reapers, not the the Collectors. The Reapers are still coming. Even if TIM had a self-destruct on the ship, which could be independent of EDI, its unlikely that he would use it.  Again, looking at the end dialogues, TIM still wants Shep as an ally.

The main sticking point here is that the Alliance could not possible react in any kind of timely manner, if they reacted at all.

Only to protect humanity. No one else he cares about.

[aimlessgun]

Silmane wrote...
Fun fact: In the latest book, TIM gets tech from the blown up base anyway. 

We
have no idea what happens to Shep and crew for betraying TIM. ME3 isn't
here yet. I suspect there will be consequences for it, though. 

I hope there will be consequences for being a sanctimonious paragon! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]



Interesting info about invalidating our decision.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Obviously not. People give TIM too little credit. He is not a super-villain and is honestly dedicated to defeating the Reapers.

TIM believes in free will, although he is manipulative. EDI may have blocks but still has free will. Proof of that is EDI decrypts data for Shepard from the courier but doesn't confisicate it. TIM wants Shepard to succeed. Shepard needs to trust the team and EDI for that to happen.

And when Shepard destroys the base, TIM is angry but doesn't disown him. He brought back Shep to defeat the Reapers, not the the Collectors. The Reapers are still coming. Even if TIM had a self-destruct on the ship, which could be independent of EDI, its unlikely that he would use it.  Again, looking at the end dialogues, TIM still wants Shep as an ally.

The main sticking point here is that the Alliance could not possible react in any kind of timely manner, if they reacted at all.

I was just trying to dispell the idea that TIM would blow Shep up for any trangression other than the paragon decision.

The reaction of the Alliance, as I've said, the built the first Normandy. They should have stealth ships. They should be able to get through the relay without triggering a political incident.

Via Hackett, Shepard has channels to the Alliance brass, ways of getting the base info to people who can do something about it quietly and effectively.

And nobody has offered anything convincing as to why the Alliance couldn't cook up some politically acceptable excuse to send a few ships in overtly, to go after a terrorist organization, or whatever. TIM describes the base as a way to vault human technology forward in a way not seen since the relays. Governments are going to put some muscle into obtaining that.

Also, I want to reiterate again: I don't think my assumptions are truth and someone else's asumptions/interpretations are wrong. I'm just trying to convince people that passing the information to the rest of the galaxy isn't automatically some ridiculous unreasonable decision, like many seem to think.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 03:31 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Only to protect humanity. No one else he cares about.

That's good enough for me. Somebody has to put humans first or else nobody will. 

He also wants to dominate all other species.

[Almostfaceman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


And when Shepard destroys the base, TIM is angry but doesn't disown him. He brought back Shep to defeat the Reapers, not the the Collectors. The Reapers are still coming. Even if TIM had a self-destruct on the ship, which could be independent of EDI, its unlikely that he would use it.  Again, looking at the end dialogues, TIM still wants Shep as an ally.
 

Ehhh, I think the story kinda leaves this "up-in-the-air".  We're not sure what TiM's next move is going to be because Shepard taking the reigns completely could (in TiM's mind) have negative repercussions for Cerberus.  Jacob bluntly says he thinks you've made an enemy of TiM.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 23 mars 2011 - 03:34 .

[Elite Midget]

Well, the thing is that it isn't all of the Alliances' choice that they're intertwined with Cerberus. Cerberus kinda forced itself into positions of power in the Alliance and killed those that didn't know when to keep their mouths shut. It's sorta like corruption. No one wants it but at this point it's too late to get rid of it from within and quietly.

Perhaps in ME3 many of the Cerberus loyalist may end up dead when Earth is attacked or Shepard as the ability to reveal the hidden shame of the Alliance and force the Cerberus corruption out in the open after saving the Universe.

[Whatever42]

aimlessgun wrote...

I was just trying to dispell the idea that TIM would blow Shep up for any trangression other than the paragon decision.

The reaction of the Alliance, as I've said, the built the first Normandy. They should have stealth ships. They should be able to get through the relay without triggering a political incident.

Via Hackett, Shepard has channels to the Alliance brass, ways of getting the base info to people who can do something about it quietly and effectively.

Oh, I will agree that it is logistically possible. However, its a little tricky. First, TIM would know that Shep sent the message from the Normandy. TIM is pretty paranoid, I guarantee he has multiple lairs of surveillance and if EDI has free will, which I believe it does. Cleaning the ship would probably convince TIM to hurry to strip the base. So perhaps they could go to another location, where Shep alerts the Alliance and sends them the IFF data.

Then the Alliance will debate it. Sending in some SR-1's is certainly possible but who makes that decision? Its political so not Hackett. That means probably a great deal of debate. And then when they agree, what will they do with Cerberus when they get there? Attack them? What if Cerberus mined the other side of the relay? There will have to be some planning.

And TIM might learn about all of it through his spies and then strip everything of value and run.

Paragon Shep knows all this and probably just blows the base.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

He also wants to dominate all other species.

Which makes him a patriot. 

Which makes him crazy. Being a patriot of you country/race/whatever doesn't imply that you want to dominate everyone else, you want to keep your country/race/whatever from harm, especially in this case. If the Alliance dominated the galaxy, who knows how long that would last before the other races rose up in rebellion?

[Chewin]

^Humanity always wins

[aimlessgun]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Oh, I will agree that it is logistically possible. However, its a little tricky. First, TIM would know that Shep sent the message from the Normandy. TIM is pretty paranoid, I guarantee he has multiple lairs of surveillance and if EDI has free will, which I believe it does. Cleaning the ship would probably convince TIM to hurry to strip the base. So perhaps they could go to another location, where Shep alerts the Alliance and sends them the IFF data.

Then the Alliance will debate it. Sending in some SR-1's is certainly possible but who makes that decision? Its political so not Hackett. That means probably a great deal of debate. And then when they agree, what will they do with Cerberus when they get there? Attack them? What if Cerberus mined the other side of the relay? There will have to be some planning.

And TIM might learn about all of it through his spies and then strip everything of value and run.

Paragon Shep knows all this and probably just blows the base.

Cerberus has logistics issues too though   Assembling a secret fleet of salvage ships large enough to strip an absolutely gigantic base before anyone else arrives sounds pretty tough. Then you've got to somehow cover the tracks of all those ships so you can study an insanely large amount of material in secret without Alliance covert ops teams busting down your door.

Elite Midget wrote...

Well, the thing is that it isn't all
of the Alliances' choice that they're intertwined with Cerberus.
Cerberus kinda forced itself into positions of power in the Alliance and
killed those that didn't know when to keep their mouths shut. It's
sorta like corruption. No one wants it but at this point it's too late
to get rid of it from within and quietly.

I like the idea of this even though it's your personal interpretation. And as long as we're sidetracking to our personal universes, my Shep wouldn't have a problem with this corruption, just a problem with TIM running it. Guy is a snake. She'd feel much better if she or someone she trusted was in charge.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Chewin3 wrote...

^Humanity always wins

Not in Avatar.

[Whatever42]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

He also wants to dominate all other species.

Which makes him a patriot. 

Which makes him crazy. Being a patriot of you country/race/whatever doesn't imply that you want to dominate everyone else, you want to keep your country/race/whatever from harm, especially in this case. If the Alliance dominated the galaxy, who knows how long that would last before the other races rose up in rebellion?

Everyone I have spoken with from Cerberus pretty earnestly states that they don't want to dominate other species. They just don't trust the Council to protect human interests.

[Whatever42]

aimlessgun wrote...

Cerberus has logistics issues too though   Assembling a secret fleet of salvage ships large enough to strip an absolutely gigantic base before anyone else arrives sounds pretty tough. Then you've got to somehow cover the tracks of all those ships so you can study an insanely large amount of material in secret without Alliance covert ops teams busting down your door.

Oh, I agree that Ceberus couldn't strip the whole base but they can get the important bits. I won't say the Alliance wouldn't get anything useful, but Cerberus would likely get all the really important tech.

But Ceberus already assembled and outfitted their fleet with the new IFF so they have a great start on it.
 
And we have heard time and time again that people like Cerberus because they just get things done while they hate the Alliance because the Alliance will just create a committee to decide if action should be taken. Its a continuous theme in the game. So we can assume Cerberus will have a good amount of time.

Again, Paragon Shep knows Cerberus will make off with a lot of very important tech. That Cerberus will likely use this to stop the Reapers apparently isn't important to paragon Shep, at least not as important to what TIM might do with it afterwards. So Paragon Shep would simply blow the base.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

^Humanity always wins

Not in Avatar.

Because the protagonist is a traitor. And it's the Hollywood.

[aimlessgun]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Again, Paragon Shep knows Cerberus will make off with a lot of very important tech. That Cerberus will likely use this to stop the Reapers apparently isn't important to paragon Shep, at least not as important to what TIM might do with it afterwards. So Paragon Shep would simply blow the base.

Alright, I can see Paragon Shep thinking that way (silly Paragons <_< ). Though my own personal "wtf you can't tell people" experience was from the renegade Shep side. Giving the galaxy access to the technology (instead of just a small special interests terrorist group with a snake of a leader) definitely seems like a more pragmatic way to stop the Reapers.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 03:59 .

[Whatever42]

aimlessgun wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Again, Paragon Shep knows Cerberus will make off with a lot of very important tech. That Cerberus will likely use this to stop the Reapers apparently isn't important to paragon Shep, at least not as important to what TIM might do with it afterwards. So Paragon Shep would simply blow the base.

Alright, I can see Paragon Shep thinking that way (silly Paragons <_< ). Though my own personal "wtf you can't tell people" experience was from the renegade Shep side. Giving the galaxy access to the technology (instead of just a small special interests terrorist group with a snake of a leader) definitely seems like a more pragmatic way to stop the Reapers.

Oh, if your goal is to get the tech out there but give the Alliance a crack at it and for Cerberus simply to not permenantly keep the base, I think that Shep informing to the Alliance serves a purpose.

Although, I would think its also possible that Cerberus sympathizers and Alliance doves could tie the debate into knots and nothing gets done. My renegade Shep would probably tell the Alliance about the base too.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Which makes him crazy. Being a patriot of you country/race/whatever doesn't imply that you want to dominate everyone else, you want to keep your country/race/whatever from harm, especially in this case. If the Alliance dominated the galaxy, who knows how long that would last before the other races rose up in rebellion?

He wants humanity to be a strategic position of military and economic dominance. This is not crazy, this is quite rational. Such a position ensures human autonomy. Anything less and we find ourselves increasingly at the mercy of alien powers.

Regardless, this is all beside the point.

You know TIM wants to save humanity so as far as the Reapers are concerned you can trust his motives.

Also: Avatar is an extremely lazy movie.

TIM, I know he SEEMS to be trustworthy when it comes to fighting the Reapers.

You... you dare diss Avatar? *cries*

[aimlessgun]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, if your goal is to get the tech out there but give the Alliance a crack at it and for Cerberus simply to not permenantly keep the base, I think that Shep informing to the Alliance serves a purpose.

Although, I would think its also possible that Cerberus sympathizers and Alliance doves could tie the debate into knots and nothing gets done. My renegade Shep would probably tell the Alliance about the base too.

Yeah. I guess we'll see how it turns out. I hold out hope that Bioware will put in a nod to other people benefiting from the base tech in ME3, instead of just Cerberus having it.

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...

As I said before, Cerberus is not the only organization in the galaxy capable of discretion. The alliance are the ones who designed the stealth Normandy, after all.

And going after a terrorist organization on a 'police action' seems like a perfect political excuse to send some ships in.

I don't think anyone has adressed the idea of you using the Normandy to gather data and interfere with Cerberus.

There's no evidence to suggest that the Alliance has any stealth ships. The Normandy cost the same as an entire frigate pack and was destroyed within a year of going operational by something that saw right through her stealth systems. Not a shining example to get it through an appropriations committee when there's so much more rebuilding of the fleet to be done.

The Terminus systems are also not a government in the traditional sense. Going after Cerberus on a police action is not going to cut it, anymore than sending Shepherd after a renegade Spectre in ME1 was ever considered. Any Citadel military action in the Terminus, no matter the excuse, is likely to be attacked and cause a snowballing confrontation.

Even if, after all that, the Citadel or Alliance managed to smuggle one or two ships in, past the whole of the Terminus without them realising they're military, then they wouldn't have the firepower to oust Cerberus. It's a catch-22, enough force to take over the base would be viewed as an attack on the Terminus and could easily spark a war, a force small enough to slip by unnoticed wouldn't be able to overcome Cerberus and any Terminus mercenaries they might hire.

As for Sheperd using the Normandy to gather information, the crew may or may not be loyal to him after the mission, but it's still a Cerberus ship crewed by Cerberus operatives, The likelyhood of anything reaching the Alliance from him that Cerberus doesn't want them to know is pretty low, and even if it did, would anyone trust it?

[Dean_the_Young]

Nor did anything he did prevent the Humans from coming back, practicing some good old orbital bombardment, and taking what they want anyway.

Just with a lot more deaths. And costs. And economic disaster on Earth, which can only hurt the efforts to repair the planet.

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
There's no evidence to suggest that the Alliance has any stealth ships. The Normandy cost the same as an entire frigate pack and was destroyed within a year of going operational by something that saw right through her stealth systems. Not a shining example to get it through an appropriations committee when there's so much more rebuilding of the fleet to be done.

As I said, either of our assumptions could be correct. But I feel that my assumptions are eminently reasonable (as are yours).

The Terminus systems are also not a government in the traditional sense. Going after Cerberus on a police action is not going to cut it, anymore than sending Shepherd after a renegade Spectre in ME1 was ever considered. Any Citadel military action in the Terminus, no matter the excuse, is likely to be attacked and cause a snowballing confrontation.

It feels like it would be easier to avoid a snowballing confrontation. Why would any small group in the Terminus risk their asses just to stop some alliance ships from using a relay. If a politically acceptable, face saving excuse could be conjured, I'm sure many would seize on it.

Even if, after all that, the Citadel or Alliance managed to smuggle one or two ships in, past the whole of the Terminus without them realising they're military, then they wouldn't have the firepower to oust Cerberus. It's a catch-22, enough force to take over the base would be viewed as an attack on the Terminus and could easily spark a war, a force small enough to slip by unnoticed wouldn't be able to overcome Cerberus and any Terminus mercenaries they might hire.

Do we know anything at all about Cerburus's naval power? Or is that an assumption on your part?

You mention Cerberus hiring mercenaries,  but you're also assuming the Alliance couldn't work through indirect methods. Why can't they influence a terminus group to interfere with Cerberus w/ military/financial aid, hire mercenaries covertly themselves, etc. The US has a long history of fighting politically shady proxy wars, why not the Alliance?

As for Sheperd using the Normandy to gather information, the crew may or may not be loyal to him after the mission, but it's still a Cerberus ship crewed by Cerberus operatives, The likelyhood of anything reaching the Alliance from him that Cerberus doesn't want them to know is pretty low, and even if it did, would anyone trust it?

When you blow the base up and tell TIM to eff off, Jacob explicitly says TIM is coming after you. But your ship, as far as we see, is home free. EDI isn't venting the airlocks. Miranda isn't shooting you in the back (in fact, she openly expresses serious doubts about TIM).

You're saying your good buddy Hackett, or your good buddy Anderson, wouldn't trust this info? You're saying that Hackett is completely powerless to do anything with it?

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 mars 2011 - 05:00 .

[Doctor Solus]

The ending should have let you choose whether to destroy or keep the base, as a minor choice, then given you the choice to stay loyal to, or leave Cerberus, as a separate choice.

EDIT; To above; I'm pretty sure Cerberus don't have any space firepower to speak of. It is not the huge, threatening organization you all are making it to be. Remember like EDI, at the timeof ME2 they only have like 150 operatives, by which I assume they mean leaders and people of importance like Miranda and Jacob, but I still doubt they have more than a few thousand heads, all toghether. 

Modifié par Doctor Solus, 23 mars 2011 - 05:26 .