102 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...

It feels like it would be easier to avoid a snowballing confrontation. Why would any small group in the Terminus risk their asses just to stop some alliance ships from using a relay. If a politically acceptable, face saving excuse could be conjured, I'm sure many would seize on it.

I can only really reply to this point, as you say, everything else is assumption backed up by varying degrees of circumstantial evidence. However this point is set in stone in the ME universe, at the end of ME 1 the Council will not even risk sending their most advanced stealth warship with one of their most deadly operatives onboard into Terminus space. Not even to track down a renegade Spectre working with AI boogeymen. That they would send ships into the heart of the Terminus systems goes against everything prior on the subject in the Mass Effect universe.

[Jagri]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
There's no evidence to suggest that the Alliance has any stealth ships.

The Normandy is not the only ship of her class that the Alliance has constructed. A Citadel NewsNet broadcast in Mass Effect 2 references a 'Normandy-class' stealth frigate, the SSV Ain Jalut, used by the Alliance to launch a raid upon a batarian colony world.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus doesn't need to be huge. They just need to get a bit some firepower, which they certainly do have the ability to get, to a strategic chokehold, which they can get to.

Being able to repurpose/reproduce any other Collector defenses can also only help.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I would have kept the base if we could give it to the Geth for them to develop. We already know that the Geth refuse to use any other technology other than their own to use so they'd never actually use the tech that they develop at most they'd alter their tech to defend against the Reapers.

Then whatever they'd create they'd be more than willing to give to Shepard after he saved them from being re-written by the Heritics. Sadly the only option we have is destroy the base or give it to a chain smoking booze hound that I wouldn't trust with a potatoe gun.

[Elite Midget]

You do know that Legion isn't a proper representation of all Geth right? They've evolved greatly and I doubt the Geth would share the Collector Technology. Some of them fear the Reapers but all of them know the risks of the Technology getting into Quarian hands. Basically you're better off giving the Tech to TIM than the Geth.

[Akizora]

Elite Midget wrote...

You do know that Legion isn't a proper representation of all Geth right? They've evolved greatly and I doubt the Geth would share the Collector Technology. Some of them fear the Reapers but all of them know the risks of the Technology getting into Quarian hands. Basically you're better off giving the Tech to TIM than the Geth.

The Geth that Legion is part of want to build a superstructure similar to a dyson sphere and upload all Geth programs into it, essentially they want to become Reapers. They however refused the shortcut the reapers gave them, thereby dividing them into heretics and geth. The heretics chose the shortcut and began war on the organics and the geth declined it and stayed out in Geth space.

They don't "fear" the "old machines", they just don't want to take the shortcut as there are many paths to the same goal and they want to find their own path. They also don't want to fight the Quarians, they treat the "homeworld" as a memorial and they still wonder why the Quarians tried to destroy them. That's part of the reason why Legion was sent out, to find out why organics fear them so much and of course to find Shepard.

So as Legion said "We are all Geth" is true, all the Geth with his mathematical programming are the same and they will reach the same conclusion.

[Elite Midget]

Doesnt change things. Geth are creators of pure unadultered logic. Logic dictates that if they share the Technology than the Quarians will get a hold of it. Logic dictates that if the Quarians have enough power they will attack the Geth just like in the past. Thus Logic dictates that they mustn't share the technology since it would compromise the Geth.

[AlexMBrennan]

Late reply for the record:

aimlessgun wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Isn't it likely that Shepard will have a choice in ME3 to hand it over to the Citadel Council instead of Cerberus. The IFF on the Normandy to get through the Omega 4 Relay can be copied, yes? That means that if Shepard wants, the Council/Citadel forces can be given access to the base.

My concern is that EDI cannot be trusted; EDI was programmed by Cerberus, and we simply can't tell what her mission is - it easily could be "secure the base for Cerberus and play along for the moment since that's the best chance of securing the base". If Shepard were to change his mind and try to go back to blow it up or to hand it over to the council then EDI could just open the airlocks and accelerate, killing Shepard and all crew just like she did when the Collectors had boarded.

Just like she does when you betray the Illusive man, blow up the base, and Jacob tells you TIM is going to come after you.

Oh...wait.

That makes sense assuming that killing Shepard will magically undo the destruction of the Collector base. Otherwise killing Shepard won't achieve anything whilst exposing an intelligence asset that could still be of value in the future.
Edit: In any case this is something that would affect Shepard's decision of whether to keep or destroy the base at the end, and he clearly doesn't know how ME2 ends.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 23 mars 2011 - 07:19 .

[Akizora]

Elite Midget wrote...

Doesnt change things. Geth are creators of pure unadultered logic. Logic dictates that if they share the Technology than the Quarians will get a hold of it. Logic dictates that if the Quarians have enough power they will attack the Geth just like in the past. Thus Logic dictates that they mustn't share the technology since it would compromise the Geth.

Yes, since they've been building their megastructure for 264 years or so they are patient. The Geth (not the heretics) never venture into space where organics are, aside from Legion that is. They have stayed out there for 3 centuries and just 'watched' and 'built', they don't know their purpose anymore and most are incapable of achieving consciousness on their own which is why they're building the megastructure in the first place.

I do wonder what will happen after that or what the Quarians will do, personally from a philosophical standpoint I would rather see the Geth come out as winners if there is a war. From a logical standpoint I would prefer the Quarians, since the Geth could all suddenly turn on organics since they consider them a 'threat' after becoming e megastructure.

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
I can only really reply to this point, as
you say, everything else is assumption backed up by varying degrees of
circumstantial evidence. However this point is set in stone in the ME
universe, at the end of ME 1 the Council will not even risk sending
their most advanced stealth warship with one of their most deadly
operatives onboard into Terminus space. Not even to track down a
renegade Spectre working with AI boogeymen. That they would send ships
into the heart of the Terminus systems goes against everything prior on
the subject in the Mass Effect universe.

Well, that council, with its history of unrepentant idiocy, is actually dead in my story (and the default story!). The council is also not the same as the alliance. And as Jagri has helpfully pointed out, I guess there is concrete evidence the Alliance has more stealth ships.

AlexMBrennan wrote...
That makes sense assuming that killing Shepard will magically undo the destruction of the Collector base. Otherwise killing Shepard won't achieve anything whilst exposing an intelligence asset that could still be of value in the future.
Edit: In any case this is something that would affect Shepard's decision of whether to keep or destroy the base at the end, and he clearly doesn't know how ME2 ends.

That's true, if Bioware had included a decision point where you kept the base but betrayed TIM, the decision point wouldn't be added to the destroy/save option: you wouldn't just go tell TIM to his face that you'll be backstabbing him later.

As for whether EDI could or would actually stop you from getting the info to the rest of the galaxy, that is up for debate. We know nothing about EDI's hidden coding, the surveillance aboard the Normandy, the levels of redundancy in said systems (as well as things like the entanglement comm to TIM). Then you have to start speculating on the abilities of Shep/Tali/Legion to counter any of those threats. Don't forget that EDI does exist as hardware: shotgunnable hardware.

Then of course there's speculation about Liara's ability to track the big ol' fleet of salvage vessels going through the O-4 relay, her ability to mess with TIM's surveillance of you off the Normandy, her ability to compromise Cerburus agents that might wish to thwart you, etc.

As I've said: war of assumptions. I'm not saying my version is the canon truth, because we don't know the canon truth. All I'm arguing is that it is a completely reasonable position to keep the base thinking you can provide the rest of the galaxy with the information and attempt to break up TIM's monopoly.

[Kingthlayer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Silmane wrote...

I just addressed it: EDI self destructs Normandy SR-2 for Shep's betrayal.

So every paragon Shep who blows the base up is killed by EDI?

Good to know.

Obviously not. People give TIM too little credit. He is not a super-villain and is honestly dedicated to defeating the Reapers.

TIM believes in free will, although he is manipulative. EDI may have blocks but still has free will. Proof of that is EDI decrypts data for Shepard from the courier but doesn't confisicate it. TIM wants Shepard to succeed. Shepard needs to trust the team and EDI for that to happen.

And when Shepard destroys the base, TIM is angry but doesn't disown him. He brought back Shep to defeat the Reapers, not the the Collectors. The Reapers are still coming. Even if TIM had a self-destruct on the ship, which could be independent of EDI, its unlikely that he would use it.  Again, looking at the end dialogues, TIM still wants Shep as an ally.

The main sticking point here is that the Alliance could not possible react in any kind of timely manner, if they reacted at all.

Only to protect humanity. No one else he cares about.

Do you think any alien cares about TIM? Or humanity in general?

[ThrakF]

Well this is a subject where since we won't know some of this stuff for certain till ME3, and we may not know it all then, that until ME3 comes out, all we can do is guess really. I doubt EDI is a particularly potent weapon that the Illusive man has to use, but he may well already have access to the IFF, I'm sure one of the base kept after mission holos, either dead or alive shep, showed ships going towards the collector base. I have little doubt that the Illusive man could get there. As for it going to others, well, if the Illusive man is resourceful, and we know that he is, he'll work FAST on getting everything he wants out of the base for him, so even if shep convinces the others to go for it, I'm not sure there'd be much left, they'd have to move very fast. It may be worth it though just to stop the Illusive man from getting hold of anything they can stop him from getting hold of.

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...

Well, that council, with its history of unrepentant idiocy, is actually dead in my story (and the default story!). The council is also not the same as the alliance. And as Jagri has helpfully pointed out, I guess there is concrete evidence the Alliance has more stealth ships.

I must admit I've never heard that bit of news playing, so I have to retract that. However if the council is dead in your game then the Alliance sending ships in still falls foul of politics. Everyone is rushing to build ships, everyone else hates humanity, the galaxy has a pre-WW1 militarisation vibe about it. The Alliance is never going to risk getting into a war with the Terminus systems in such a situation, particularly as Cerberus can be relied upon to drip feed any technology it gains from the base into the Alliance anyway, especially in such an atmosphere of Everyone vs Humans.

No matter which way it goes, it still makes no sense to say that the Citadel or the Alliance should have been able to cruise in there instead of Cerberus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Do you think any alien cares about TIM? Or humanity in general?

Of course! You need to feed your dog to throw it at a bear later!

[Elite Midget]

Well, if there was a war the Geth would destroy the Quarians. They've just choosen not to act hostile outside the Heretics.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Missouri Tigers wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The base goes to Cerberus because Cerberus is in the best position to claim it. They have replicated the IFF and have an entire salvage fleet standing by. What could the Council or Alliance do? By the time they got on the scene Cerberus would stripped much of the base anyway. That is assuming you could ever convince them to go there in the first place.

It could take months for the Council or Alliance or anyone else to make a decision. It might take them longer to replicate the IFF as well because they have less experience with that technology. Cerberus worked on the derelict Reaper and recovered the original IFF.

Cerberus never got the original IFF, though.  Shepard recovered it and installed it on his ship, yes?  The Illusive Man never got a copy of it, did he?  No ship but the Normandy can go through the Omega 4 Relay.  Unless they copied it in the game and I missed it, which is possible.  I see no reason that Edi couldn't replicate the IFF and allow Shepard to give it to the council instead of Cerberus, allowing them to take the base and examine the technology for the benefit of all council races.

EDI probably sent him a copy by programming. There are many other surveillance bugs on the SR2, so I wouldn't be surprised. How else does he get the scan of the base in the Renegade ending? EDI has to be the source. While I'd love to hand it over to someone else and have Shepard and/or Mordin oversee the research personally, I don't find TIM to be dangerous- his love for humanity is what keeps him in line to help defeat the Reapers. After that, my Shepard plans to take over and re-form cerberus. TIM's getting old, you know... 

[aimlessgun]

I havn't even mentioned the fact that nobody other than TIM even needs to go through the relay. TIM has to dismantle the base the size of a small moon with a fleet of salvage ships that have to go through one specific relay that nobody else ever uses.

Capturing some of those ships when they come back from the base should be possible. Stealth ships, hired mercs, paramilitary teams disguised as pirates, you name it.

Another wild card: Liara. Considering the massive quantity of mooks the Shadow Broker threw at you in LotSB, I think she could arrange to capture some of these salvage ships.

Jonny_Evil wrote...
I must admit I've never heard that bit of news playing, so I have to retract that. However if the council is dead in your game then the Alliance sending ships in still falls foul of politics. Everyone is rushing to build ships, everyone else hates humanity, the galaxy has a pre-WW1 militarisation vibe about it. The Alliance is never going to risk getting into a war with the Terminus systems in such a situation, particularly as Cerberus can be relied upon to drip feed any technology it gains from the base into the Alliance anyway, especially in such an atmosphere of Everyone vs Humans.

No matter which way it goes, it still makes no sense to say that the Citadel or the Alliance should have been able to cruise in there instead of Cerberus.

Again I think you're interpreting what we know in the worst and most restrictive possible light

Let's break down the guesses one has to make in absence of direct from-game knowledge.

Core point of contention: Whether or not Shep could feed the Alliance or Council information about the base such that they could recover tech from it.

Subpoint 1: Whether Cerberus could strip the base before another party could send ships into the area.

Guesses around subpoint 1:

-The political will and slowness of the Alliance or Council. Whether or not recovering tech that might represent "the single greatest advancement of human technology since the relays" would get stuck in political debates or whether action could be taken swiftly (via covert ops, mercs, or other indirect and deniable methods).

-The amount of 'important' parts on the base and the ability of TIM to retrieve said parts quickly. How many important pieces of tech are on a base the size of a small moon? How many ships does TIM have? How fast can you strip tech without damaging it? Unknown.

Corallary to subpoint 1:
-The naval capabilities of a cell based terrorist group and their ability to fight off attacks. Unknown.
-Whether or not you could capture Cerberus salvage vessels leaving the relay.

Subpoint 2: Shep's ability to betray TIM.

Guesses around subpoint 2: I'll just copy paste something I wrote earlier.
We know nothing about EDI's hidden coding, the surveillance aboard the Normandy, the levels of redundancy in said systems (as well as things like the entanglement comm to TIM). Then you have to start speculating on the abilities of Shep/Tali/Legion to counter any of those threats. Don't forget that EDI does exist as hardware: shotgunnable hardware.

Then of course there's speculation about Liara's ability to track the big ol' fleet of salvage vessels going through the O-4 relay, her ability to mess with TIM's surveillance of you off the Normandy, her ability to compromise Cerburus agents that might wish to thwart you, etc.

Corallary to subpoint 2: If TIM can't blow you up, whether or not you could extract important hardware before you leave. Whether or not Mordin/Tali/EDI can get some valuable intel on the base. Whether or not the SR-2 itself can capture Cerberus salvage ships.



Feels like I'm missing some other points of assumption, but this is already long

Modifié par aimlessgun, 24 mars 2011 - 04:27 .

[jbblue05]

Why would Liara and the Alliance betray TIM their mutually beneficial partners?

[aimlessgun]

jbblue05 wrote...

Why would Liara and the Alliance betray TIM their mutually beneficial partners?

The level of mutual benefits is something we must guess at. I assume that the "the single greatest advancement of human technology since the relays" would be worth more to the Alliance than whatever tidbits came into their hands indirectly. You may assume otherwise, but I'm not seeing how my assumption is any less reasonable than yours.

As for Liara, she explicitly states that she's happy to have a purpose, and that purpose is to help Shepard. Asking Liara to help you spread advanced tech to the whole galaxy rather than letting it go to a prohuman terrorist group shouldn't exactly be a problem.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 24 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

The choice is a false dichotomy. There is no reason beyond the plot saying so.

[Zulu_DFA]

aimlessgun wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Why would Liara and the Alliance betray TIM their mutually beneficial partners?

The level of mutual benefits is something we must guess at. I assume that the "the single greatest advancement of human technology since the relays" would be worth more to the Alliance than whatever tidbits came into their hands indirectly. You may assume otherwise, but I'm not seeing how my assumption is any less reasonable than yours.

Your assumption is less reasonable, because it's not "whatever titbits" that come to the Alliance hands. It's everything Cerberus does. Because the stronger the Alliance is the better for the Mankind, and that's what TIM wants and does, even if some morons and traitors in the Alliance who don't want it to be strong get in the way from time to time.

aimlessgun wrote...

As for Liara, she explicitly states that she's happy to have a purpose, and that purpose is to help Shepard. Asking Liara to help you spread advanced tech to the whole galaxy rather than letting it go to a prohuman terrorist group shouldn't exactly be a problem.

Liara will outlive Shepard. And TIM. And TIM's successor. And the successor of TIM's successor. By that time she may become the most natural choice to lead the Shadow Cerberus - the Galaxy's only real remaining powerhouse. So yeah, supporting TIM makes a lot of sense for Liara too - it's like making a career, you know.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 mars 2011 - 06:45 .

[aimlessgun]

Thank you for sharing your personal vision of the ME universe Zulu. I find it interesting. Just don't try to pretend everyone else must accept it as true.

EDIT: Er, sorry if you were being humorous and it went over my head. You know how tough it is to tell sometimes

Modifié par aimlessgun, 24 mars 2011 - 07:22 .

[Zulu_DFA]

aimlessgun wrote...

if you were being humorous

I wasn't.

[ThrakF]

Hmm, capturing ships as they come back, now if they were quick, I suppose that's possible, and I do like the point about Liara, even if the council and alliance couldn't be convinced to do anything about it, I'm sure Liara has the resources to. Heck, Liara probably has the resources to infiltrate the salvage fleet, take what she wants and destroy it form the inside.