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[Quill74Pen]

Everyone:

Think about it — Kirkwall's environs were the site of the final, titanic battle between the ascendant Tevinter Imperium and the post-Arlathan elven nation in the ancient past. Both sides called up terrible spirits and demons in those dark, bloody hours. Both sides lost a lot of people, with the elves literally losing the last vestiges of their independence, the survivors becoming slaves to Tevinter. All of this fighting, suffering and death thinned the Veil separating the physical world from the ethereal world of the Fade, making it easier for spirits and demons of ill intent to pass into the physical world.

Second, Kirkwall became *the* center for the slave trade in the Tevinter Imperium. It's said that, over the course of the centuries that the Imperium was dominant, *millions* of slaves passed through Kirkwall's environs. A lot of them who arrived never left alive, their bodies dumped into the Bone Pit. The sheer amount of agony and death further thinned the Veil between the physical world and the Fade, giving spirits and demons even more leeway to enter the physical realm.

Third, the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium were conducting terrifying experiments within Kirkwall's environs. These experiments required a *lot* of blood to power them, blood that came from the *piles* of skeletons you find beneath the city on various missions. The experiments themselves might have been early, failed attempts by the magisters to storm the Golden City at the heart of the Fade. Or, maybe the experiments were just one experiment — the very one that enabled the Tevinter magister lords to storm the Golden City and turn it into the Black City. Such an endeavor would have required a lot of lyrium — and slave blood. This, too, would have greatly weakened the barrier between the physical world and the Fade, again giving spirits and demons (the Maker's "first" children) almost a free hand in entering the physical world to, presumably, raise mayhem and havoc (for the most part).

Fast forward to present day Kirkwall. You've got the Kirkwall Circle at the Gallows — basically, right in the heart of where all of the above occurred. Strike one against the Circle mages. The second strike? The pressure they come under from Knight-Commander Meredith and the Templar Order — pressure undoubtably ratcheted up by the acts of the "outside" blood mages coming in and carrying out sabotage and whatnot. More and more Circle mages give in under the stress and pressure, turning to blood magic ... a risky endeavor under any circumstance, but even moreso considering the thinness of the Veil in and around Kirkwall — a weakness exploited to full effect by the Fade spirits and demons. Finally, the third strike was Hawke and Varric's expedition into the Deep Roads. That resulted in Meredith's eventual acquisition of the red lyrium metal/artifact, which immediatly *dominated* her mind and made her even more paranoid and aggressive than she already was.

Combine *all* of this together and what you wind up with is an *explosive* mixture ... one that literally blows up in Hawke's face when the Kirkwall Chantry and everyone in it goes BOOM, thanks to Anders, who I think fell under a spell similar to what Meredith suffered from.

And, thus, the world is set aflame because of what happened in Kirkwall — not only in the present, so to speak, but in the ancient past as well.

So, what do you think, folks? Does my "thesis" hold water?

Quill74Pen

[The Angry One]

Yeah Kirkwall was built over the Hellmouth or something.
Never occured to any of these geniuses to move all the mages out of the thin Veil zone but hey, I ain't a Templar.

[Camilladilla]

Interesting, I just read a theory similar to this on another DA comm. It was pointed out that there's SOMETHING beneath Kirkwall that's unbound due to the actions of the Tevinter Imperium.

[p95h]

Nice thesis. I'd say it holds water very well. Still, Bloodmages are in the end, convicting themselves by the use of what is commonly understood to be forbidden, dangerous magic.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

If it does't happen to player, then it does't exist.
Hawke does't hear voices, does't succumb to demons and nothing like Wild Magic from D&D happens in the game.

It's a nice theory, which I thought about too, but I thought it out not because game was about it, but because I tried to make an excuse for mages exploding everywhere and game did't give me enough facts to understand why it's happening.

Numerous blood mages felt like stupid design flaw, not a conpiracy.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 23 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[The Angry One]

Yeah and Hawke can activate blood magic in front of 10 templars and nobody will care.
Besides Hawke has more plot armour than the entire cast of Stargate SG-1.

[Kartikeya]

You know, I'm not sure why I never really thought about the implications of putting the freaking Circle of Magi in the Gallows before. It's made quite clear that the Veil is tenuous around Kirkwall in general, and certainly in that place, and you can find a huge pride demon right below the city.

Even ignoring all the Veil issues, it kind've makes the views of whoever decided the Circle should be housed there pretty clear, doesn't it?

[Talladarr]

I have to say that is one of the best arguments I've seen in these forums, Kudos, kudos

[Baelyn]

Quill74Pen wrote...

Everyone:

Think about it — Kirkwall's environs were the site of the final, titanic battle between the ascendant Tevinter Imperium and the post-Arlathan elven nation in the ancient past. Both sides called up terrible spirits and demons in those dark, bloody hours. Both sides lost a lot of people, with the elves literally losing the last vestiges of their independence, the survivors becoming slaves to Tevinter. All of this fighting, suffering and death thinned the Veil separating the physical world from the ethereal world of the Fade, making it easier for spirits and demons of ill intent to pass into the physical world.

Second, Kirkwall became *the* center for the slave trade in the Tevinter Imperium. It's said that, over the course of the centuries that the Imperium was dominant, *millions* of slaves passed through Kirkwall's environs. A lot of them who arrived never left alive, their bodies dumped into the Bone Pit. The sheer amount of agony and death further thinned the Veil between the physical world and the Fade, giving spirits and demons even more leeway to enter the physical realm.

Third, the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium were conducting terrifying experiments within Kirkwall's environs. These experiments required a *lot* of blood to power them, blood that came from the *piles* of skeletons you find beneath the city on various missions. The experiments themselves might have been early, failed attempts by the magisters to storm the Golden City at the heart of the Fade. Or, maybe the experiments were just one experiment — the very one that enabled the Tevinter magister lords to storm the Golden City and turn it into the Black City. Such an endeavor would have required a lot of lyrium — and slave blood. This, too, would have greatly weakened the barrier between the physical world and the Fade, again giving spirits and demons (the Maker's "first" children) almost a free hand in entering the physical world to, presumably, raise mayhem and havoc (for the most part).

Fast forward to present day Kirkwall. You've got the Kirkwall Circle at the Gallows — basically, right in the heart of where all of the above occurred. Strike one against the Circle mages. The second strike? The pressure they come under from Knight-Commander Meredith and the Templar Order — pressure undoubtably ratcheted up by the acts of the "outside" blood mages coming in and carrying out sabotage and whatnot. More and more Circle mages give in under the stress and pressure, turning to blood magic ... a risky endeavor under any circumstance, but even moreso considering the thinness of the Veil in and around Kirkwall — a weakness exploited to full effect by the Fade spirits and demons. Finally, the third strike was Hawke and Varric's expedition into the Deep Roads. That resulted in Meredith's eventual acquisition of the red lyrium metal/artifact, which immediatly *dominated* her mind and made her even more paranoid and aggressive than she already was.

Combine *all* of this together and what you wind up with is an *explosive* mixture ... one that literally blows up in Hawke's face when the Kirkwall Chantry and everyone in it goes BOOM, thanks to Anders, who I think fell under a spell similar to what Meredith suffered from.

And, thus, the world is set aflame because of what happened in Kirkwall — not only in the present, so to speak, but in the ancient past as well.

So, what do you think, folks? Does my "thesis" hold water?

Quill74Pen

Spot on. Its really a shame that this was only revealed in some obscure codices as this really provides ALOT of reasoning to how crazy people act in this city. Had these same events happened elsewhere would we have seen it turn out like it did since the mages (and even the templars) may have been in better states of mind?

On that note...did this phenomenon further the corruption and ultimate takeover of Vengeance on Anders? We know that in Awakenings, Justice was very sensitive to the veil and to lyrium which reminded him of it. It "sang" to him if you ever give him the lyrium ring.

[Naitaka]

All the more reason for the Divine to declare Exalted Marches on Kirkwall and kill every man, woman and child there then raze the city to the ground because they're all obviously irredeemably corrupted.

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 11:36 .

[Deylar]

Okay. A theory to justify the amount of crazy mages I meet. Thanks for the justification.

[captain.subtle]

*cough*Forbiddenonesareretconnedintothestory*cough*

[Quill74Pen]

Naitaka wrote...

All the more reason for the Divine to declare Exalted Marches on Kirkwall and kill every man, woman and child there then raze the city to the ground because they're all obviously irredeemably corrupted.

You're not serious, are you? Even as thin as the Veil is in Kirkwall's environs, it seems the majority of "normal" people seem to be unaffected by the spirits and demons. Although there is a codex entry that says even normal people can interact with demons in certains areas of Kirkwall due to how tenuous the Veil is. Still ... you're not serious, are you?

Quill74Pen

[Ahriman Dragonhand]

Naitaka wrote...

All the more reason for the Divine to declare Exalted Marches on Kirkwall and kill every man, woman and child there then raze the city to the ground because they're all obviously irredeemably corrupted.

Mass killing would weaken the veil even more, wouldn't it? I'm game!

[highcastle]

This is basically the conclusion I came to after reading all of the Band of Three codices (which I assume are important considering there's an achievement for collecting them). My curiosity's also piqued by the specific use of the word "unbound," mostly because Origins featured bonus boss Gaxkang the Unbound. I know it's a reference to the BG series, or was at least conceived as one. But might there be some deeper significance? I don't know, but I think it's interesting to think about.

I also know it's possible to kill a desire demon and a pride demon beneath Kirkwall during Act 2 and Act 3. I wondered if the pride demon might not be the spirit that's been unbound, but I can't say for certain. I personally would like to think there's something even worse beneath the city, though I have no solid proof for this, only wishful thinking.

[Quill74Pen]

Baelyn wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...

Everyone:

Think about it — Kirkwall's environs were the site of the final, titanic battle between the ascendant Tevinter Imperium and the post-Arlathan elven nation in the ancient past. Both sides called up terrible spirits and demons in those dark, bloody hours. Both sides lost a lot of people, with the elves literally losing the last vestiges of their independence, the survivors becoming slaves to Tevinter. All of this fighting, suffering and death thinned the Veil separating the physical world from the ethereal world of the Fade, making it easier for spirits and demons of ill intent to pass into the physical world.

Second, Kirkwall became *the* center for the slave trade in the Tevinter Imperium. It's said that, over the course of the centuries that the Imperium was dominant, *millions* of slaves passed through Kirkwall's environs. A lot of them who arrived never left alive, their bodies dumped into the Bone Pit. The sheer amount of agony and death further thinned the Veil between the physical world and the Fade, giving spirits and demons even more leeway to enter the physical realm.

Third, the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium were conducting terrifying experiments within Kirkwall's environs. These experiments required a *lot* of blood to power them, blood that came from the *piles* of skeletons you find beneath the city on various missions. The experiments themselves might have been early, failed attempts by the magisters to storm the Golden City at the heart of the Fade. Or, maybe the experiments were just one experiment — the very one that enabled the Tevinter magister lords to storm the Golden City and turn it into the Black City. Such an endeavor would have required a lot of lyrium — and slave blood. This, too, would have greatly weakened the barrier between the physical world and the Fade, again giving spirits and demons (the Maker's "first" children) almost a free hand in entering the physical world to, presumably, raise mayhem and havoc (for the most part).

Fast forward to present day Kirkwall. You've got the Kirkwall Circle at the Gallows — basically, right in the heart of where all of the above occurred. Strike one against the Circle mages. The second strike? The pressure they come under from Knight-Commander Meredith and the Templar Order — pressure undoubtably ratcheted up by the acts of the "outside" blood mages coming in and carrying out sabotage and whatnot. More and more Circle mages give in under the stress and pressure, turning to blood magic ... a risky endeavor under any circumstance, but even moreso considering the thinness of the Veil in and around Kirkwall — a weakness exploited to full effect by the Fade spirits and demons. Finally, the third strike was Hawke and Varric's expedition into the Deep Roads. That resulted in Meredith's eventual acquisition of the red lyrium metal/artifact, which immediatly *dominated* her mind and made her even more paranoid and aggressive than she already was.

Combine *all* of this together and what you wind up with is an *explosive* mixture ... one that literally blows up in Hawke's face when the Kirkwall Chantry and everyone in it goes BOOM, thanks to Anders, who I think fell under a spell similar to what Meredith suffered from.

And, thus, the world is set aflame because of what happened in Kirkwall — not only in the present, so to speak, but in the ancient past as well.

So, what do you think, folks? Does my "thesis" hold water?

Quill74Pen

Spot on. Its really a shame that this was only revealed in some obscure codices as this really provides ALOT of reasoning to how crazy people act in this city. Had these same events happened elsewhere would we have seen it turn out like it did since the mages (and even the templars) may have been in better states of mind?

On that note...did this phenomenon further the corruption and ultimate takeover of Vengeance on Anders? We know that in Awakenings, Justice was very sensitive to the veil and to lyrium which reminded him of it. It "sang" to him if you ever give him the lyrium ring.

WRT Justice/Vengeance, I'm not sure. It is, after all, already a spirit, presumably immune to effects of its brethren in the Fade.

Hmm. I think it probably was a combination of Anders' feelings regarding the Chantry — feelings he had had since before the events of DAA — and the abuses he witnessed since his arrival in Kirkwall that came together to influence Justice (already within Anders by that point) in a negative way.

After all, it's said in various codices that the denizens of the Fade did not know of hate, love, jealousy, happiness and whatnot until they began to experience them via human dreamers in the Fade. My point being, human emotions can affect the spirits — positively and negatively — and, in Anders' case, it turned a benevolent spirit of Justice into a demonic Vengeance.

In the end, I think it was Anders who corrupted Justice, not necessarily Kirkwall. But what corrupted Anders in the first place? Why, it was Kirkwall and its environs — environs in such a tattered state due to what past and current events *outside* the control of Anders and Justice.

Quill74Pen

[Quill74Pen]

highcastle wrote...

This is basically the conclusion I came to after reading all of the Band of Three codices (which I assume are important considering there's an achievement for collecting them). My curiosity's also piqued by the specific use of the word "unbound," mostly because Origins featured bonus boss Gaxkang the Unbound. I know it's a reference to the BG series, or was at least conceived as one. But might there be some deeper significance? I don't know, but I think it's interesting to think about.

I also know it's possible to kill a desire demon and a pride demon beneath Kirkwall during Act 2 and Act 3. I wondered if the pride demon might not be the spirit that's been unbound, but I can't say for certain. I personally would like to think there's something even worse beneath the city, though I have no solid proof for this, only wishful thinking.

For what it's worth, I, too, think there's something far, far worse than mere desire and pride demons lurking somewhere in or near Kirkwall. Perhaps it's the *something* that was unleashed from the Golden City in the Fade when the Tevinter magister lords stormed the city, turning it into the Black City. I say this because there was a codice or two in the DA univese that allude to *something* being in the Golden City at the time the magister lords arrived, and that it was either corrupted with the city and is still there, or was corrupted and escaped.

Quill74Pen

[Quill74Pen]

captain.subtle wrote...

*cough*Forbiddenonesareretconnedintothestory*cough*

Please excuse my ignorance, but what are the Forbidden Ones?

[Quill74Pen]

Deylar wrote...

Okay. A theory to justify the amount of crazy mages I meet. Thanks for the justification.

Heh, well, I figure it's better than nothing. Honestly, though, I'd like to run my "thesis" past David Gaider, just to see if it's anywhere near what the DA writers were thinking of.

Quill74Pen

[Quill74Pen]

Kartikeya wrote...

You know, I'm not sure why I never really thought about the implications of putting the freaking Circle of Magi in the Gallows before. It's made quite clear that the Veil is tenuous around Kirkwall in general, and certainly in that place, and you can find a huge pride demon right below the city.

Even ignoring all the Veil issues, it kind've makes the views of whoever decided the Circle should be housed there pretty clear, doesn't it?

**LOL** It's all explained by one word: Bureaucrats!

[Quill74Pen]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

If it does't happen to player, then it does't exist.
Hawke does't hear voices, does't succumb to demons and nothing like Wild Magic from D&D happens in the game.

It's a nice theory, which I thought about too, but I thought it out not because game was about it, but because I tried to make an excuse for mages exploding everywhere and game did't give me enough facts to understand why it's happening.

Numerous blood mages felt like stupid design flaw, not a conpiracy.

Well, have you ever considered asking David Gaider and his co-writers for their thoughts on the matter? Most competent writers justify their stories and plan ahead in the form of notes and outlines. So rather than just assuming it's a design flaw — which is something I honestly don't believe is the case with Bioware — go straight to the source and do one thing: ask about it. You might pleasantly surprised at what you hear.

Quill74Pen

[Svest]

Interesting take. I hadn't really considered that before. To me the explanation was actually fairly simple. You only really meet mages outside the circle so it made sense to me that they would be practicing forbidden magic. The mages reject the circle and therefore the templars' and chantry's authority. Its not too hard to imagine that they would also reject their rules about blood magic especially when backed into a corner. Those who follow the rules would simply stay locked up in the Gallows and Hawke would never get a chance to meet them. I think your explanation is more interesting though.

[Quill74Pen]

p95h wrote...

Nice thesis. I'd say it holds water very well. Still, Bloodmages are in the end, convicting themselves by the use of what is commonly understood to be forbidden, dangerous magic.

There's a codex or two that says the Veil is so weak in Kirkwall that ordinary people in the physical world can interact with spirits and demons from the Fade. Ordinary people.

If you add people with natural magical talent into the mix, they're probably even more vulnerable to spirits and demons. Long story short, who's to say some of the mages haven't already been *possessed* by demons before they turn to blood magic — under the influence of the demon within them or subliminally controlling them from within the Fade?

Quill74Pen

[Morroian]

There's also the fact that the city is arranged in the form of a giant glyph.