99 réponses à ce sujet

[Tennessee88]

You are rather new so just a friendly heads up, this topic is teetering on the edge of being considered political which has been declared off topic by the mods.

Anyways onto your question because I find it interesting. The problem with comparing the ME Universe with our current world is that they have very different realities. That being said I have an overall problem with the concept that the council has the power it does. Certainly they have maintained peace in the game, but I find their power unnerving. That being said the Council provides a much more effecient and secure galaxy than a galaxy without the Council.

As for the Spectre part of the question... First off I am rather confused by what the Council sees as acceptable use of the Spectres. If they are killing slavers, investigating Batarian incursions, or used for primarily military action then the idea is more acceptable. The idea of the Spectre being used for police actions would be a vast over step of acceptable policy.

As for governments employing secret agents who get away with more than they should... I am all for it as long as it does involve loyal and innocent citizens of my country. But in the world we live in, I fully expect decisive, covert, and violent action to be necessary.

I would also argue that Spectres are held accountable for their actions to a degree.

[oksbad]

I would completely and utterly oppose the introduction of such a force. They simply don't work in real life.

As a science fiction element though they are awesome.

Modifié par oksbad, 23 mars 2011 - 08:20 .

[Nimander]

I'd argue that Spectres -are- accountable for their actions -- they can be removed by the Council after all, and be investigated.

I don't mind them mostly because they're -obviously- based on the Lensman series, and it's a scifi trope I enjoy. I'd be a bit more leery 'in real life' but the instant ME starts trying to deconstruct things to that point as opposed to reconstructing them is the point I stop playing the game.

[Reiella]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nimander wrote...

I'd argue that Spectres -are- accountable for their actions -- they can be removed by the Council after all, and be investigated.

They are accountable, but it is completely at the Council's discretion. There is no standard for accountability. If a Spectre violates your rights but the Council still finds them to ultimatley be useful, there is nothing you can do. Nothing at all. You are powerless, unable to prosecute, unable to find compensation.

The Spectres should not be above the law. Any time they violate the law they should have to submit to review by a separate council that handles Spectre affairs. Perhaps even a review by C-Sec. Spectres are important, but they have too much power.

It's awkward with Spectres though.  The Council doesn't really appear to give them much support.  So while an interested party could detain a spectre for violating their laws [say, detonating a nuclear device in a hospital], the Council wouldn't necessarily get involved.  However, the Council expects the Spectre to break themselves out, or not get caught.

The comparison to other clandestine entities is fairly sound.  Except the Council doesn't bother lying too much with the business of disavowing.

[Almostfaceman]

I have a hard time getting worked up about it since the Spectre's are to me obviously an artificial construct of the game so that the player can make all these "galactic moral importance" decisions and not get constantly chased around and incarcerated by the authorities.

[Reiella]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Reiella wrote...

However, the Council expects the Spectre to break themselves out, or not get caught.

Or the Council just orders them released. A Spectre in prison is not useful to them and there are not that many Spectres to begin with. 

So, Shepard was never in any real risk in Jack's recruitment mission?

[Jonny_Evil]

Reiella wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Reiella wrote...

However, the Council expects the Spectre to break themselves out, or not get caught.

Or the Council just orders them released. A Spectre in prison is not useful to them and there are not that many Spectres to begin with. 

So, Shepard was never in any real risk in Jack's recruitment mission?

That wasn't in Citadel space, the Council had no authority over it.

[Reiella]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Reiella wrote...

So, Shepard was never in any real risk in Jack's recruitment mission?

That wasn't in Citadel space, the Council had no authority over it.

A fair distinction, if dubious, since the issue is being drawn as a clandestine operative in the first place.

Did the Council revoke Shepard's Spectre status before grounding them in the first game?

Modifié par Reiella, 23 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[Jonny_Evil]

Reiella wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Reiella wrote...

So, Shepard was never in any real risk in Jack's recruitment mission?

That wasn't in Citadel space, the Council had no authority over it.

A fair distinction, if dubious, since the issue is being drawn as a clandestine operative in the first place.

Did the Council revoke Shepard's Spectre status before grounding them in the first game?

It's revoked when he's declared KIA. You can get it back, but they flat out tell you it's in name only and Shepard shouldn't think he can operate as a Spectre in Citadel space.

[Reiella]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
It's revoked when he's declared KIA. You can get it back, but they flat out tell you it's in name only and Shepard shouldn't think he can operate as a Spectre in Citadel space.

Ok, but Shepard wasn't KIA before going to Ilos.

[ edit ]
On your post though, it's kind of funny, because he does operate as a Spectre in Citadel space.  On the Citadel, in front of C-Sec no less.

Modifié par Reiella, 23 mars 2011 - 05:08 .

[Jonny_Evil]

Reiella wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...
It's revoked when he's declared KIA. You can get it back, but they flat out tell you it's in name only and Shepard shouldn't think he can operate as a Spectre in Citadel space.

Ok, but Shepard wasn't KIA before going to Ilos.

[ edit ]
On your post though, it's kind of funny, because he does operate as a Spectre in Citadel space.  On the Citadel, in front of C-Sec no less.

Jack's recruitment mission is post-Normandy destruction. Shepard is officially dead, and so no longer a Spectre.

I noticed that as well.

Council:"Shepard, we don't trust you and we don't want you operating in our space as a Spectre."
*Five minutes later, down the hall*
Shepard:" I'm a goddamn Spectre and I'm above the Law, miscreant!"

Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 23 mars 2011 - 05:26 .

[Reiella]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Jack's recruitment mission is post-Normandy destruction. Shepard is officially dead, and so no longer a Spectre.

I noticed that as well.

Council:"Shepard, we don't trust you and we don't want you operating in our space as a Spectre."
*Five minutes later, down the hall*
Shepard:" I'm a goddamn Spectre and I'm above the Law, miscreant!"

Yes, but I'm now talking about the first game, where Shepard gets grounded while still maintaining Spectre status.

The point I'm trying to make with that, is that while there is the 'by any means necessary' clause, the Spectres are still accountable for their actions in a direct sense, and any consequences of the means the Spectre use to pursue that course of action are theirs to handle [or fail to handle].

Simply 'telling someone to do something' doesn't mean they have to do it.  Largely that's why the Council feels the need for the Spectres to exist in the first place.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I have a hard time getting worked up about it since the Spectre's are to me obviously an artificial construct of the game so that the player can make all these "galactic moral importance" decisions and not get constantly chased around and incarcerated by the authorities.

That's true, but it doesn't leave us much to talk about, does it?

Why not try and insert yourself into the Mass Effect universe. It will give you a new perspective on the Spectres. After you do that, tell me, how do you feel about them?

Well, sure, I'll insert myself into the Mass Effect universe and explain how they need the power they have.  Then you'll give me some real-world answer as to why they have too much power. Weeeee!  You said as much to another poster earlier - that really the Mass Effect universe is no different from ours.

It all generally falls into the cinematic pattern of, let's say, Jack Bauer.  Jack Bauer a) goes rogue or has direct Presidential authority c) some other clever plot twist - to do what he needs to do while the bureaucratic rule lovers sit on the sidelines and grumble about it.  Either way in the end he ends up saving millions of lives and thus the cinematic story people see that he was right and don't punish him for any laws he breaks.  That's ultimately what a Spectre is, someone who saves trilliions of lives by serving the greater good and so they don't get punished for whatever laws they break.

It's a popular story idea for us regular joe's because we use it as an outlet - we who are powerless and bogged down in rules and laws and bureaucratic red tape nightmares.

Ultimately any power can be abused.  If it's not the Citadel Council using Spectre's, they're using something else.  At some point people have to put someone in charge, trust them, and get on with their lives.  For this James Bond/Jack Bauer/Spectre universe those put in trust, in power, have decided that there are some "above the law" individuals needed so that the galaxy doesn't get destroyed while some clerk is waiting for a signed search warrant from a judge at 4am in the morning. 

[Jonny_Evil]

Reiella wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Jack's recruitment mission is post-Normandy destruction. Shepard is officially dead, and so no longer a Spectre.

I noticed that as well.

Council:"Shepard, we don't trust you and we don't want you operating in our space as a Spectre."
*Five minutes later, down the hall*
Shepard:" I'm a goddamn Spectre and I'm above the Law, miscreant!"

Yes, but I'm now talking about the first game, where Shepard gets grounded while still maintaining Spectre status.

The point I'm trying to make with that, is that while there is the 'by any means necessary' clause, the Spectres are still accountable for their actions in a direct sense, and any consequences of the means the Spectre use to pursue that course of action are theirs to handle [or fail to handle].

Simply 'telling someone to do something' doesn't mean they have to do it.  Largely that's why the Council feels the need for the Spectres to exist in the first place.

They didn't revoke his Spectre status then, possibly because he turned out to be right, but they banned him from going and locked down his ship. When Shepard went to Ilos he was disobeying the direct orders of the council, if he'd turned out to be wrong there would certainly have been dire repercussions for his actions.

Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 23 mars 2011 - 05:27 .

[AGogley]

The closest parallel in movies to a Spectre is probably James Bond. A Spectre is a Secret Agent whose purpose is to operate outside the law according to the interests of the government while giving said government deniability about the Agent's activities. This way if the Agent screws up, the government can simply say the Agent did so without permission and was acting on his own. Frankly, this type of Agent exists to avoid discussions about morality. Some people believe that it's ok to kill enemy combatants while they sleep...others think such persons should be "arrested." An Agent such as James Bond or a Spectre exists to avoid beaucracy and the changing sea of morality as defined by the existing politicians.

[Reiella]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Reiella wrote...

So, Shepard was never in any real risk in Jack's recruitment mission?

He was in the Terminus Systems. There the Council would have no legal authority to do anything. So yeah, he'd be on his own. However if he was arrested say, on Earth, the Council could pressure the Alliance to let him go. Technically they couldn't force them, but the Council has a lot of power. As Anderson says, "We don't have the fleets or political allies to defy them."

I dunno, I have a problem really seeing the Council do more than talk or send another Spectre out to solve any of their problems.  "Hmm, attacks on colonies within Council space?  Oh well, let the race that's being attacked handle it."  versus "Oh noes, they arrested one of our operatives for an act of terrorism!  Better send the fleet!"

Of course, the Council could just be that apathic towards the other species.

[MissFish]

Unfortunetly..... America is basically run by the council. Air quotes included

"Sanity? We have dismissed that claim"