99 réponses à ce sujet

[DxWill10]

If the specters bother this much then..

Do the Quarians bother you? Afterall they made the Geth, theyre bad!
The Krogans? Theyre totally brutal and like, animal-ish
The Salarians? They neutered an entire species!
The Turians? They totally attacked us and stuff!
The Asari? Damn their superior diplomatic capabilities!

[Yakko77]

oksbad wrote...

I would completely and utterly oppose the introduction of such a force. They simply don't work in real life.

As a science fiction element though they are awesome.

Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Pwener2313]

I don't understand the title..... what morals?

[Yakko77]

Pwener2313 wrote...

I don't understand the title..... what morals?

Depeninding on how you conduct your Shepard(s), pretty much none are moral from what we've seen at least. 

Saren, corrupt
Vasir, corrupt
Nhilus, corrupt (according to Samara at least)
Blasto, ???  Could be corrupt but it would be awesome corrupt!

[Pwener2313]

Im neither. I declined the Spectre offer in ME2. I don't need some fancy title to save the galaxy.

[Yakko77]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Im neither. I declined the Spectre offer in ME2. I don't need some fancy title to save the galaxy.

And even if you do take back the title, the Council still essentially banishes you.

"Yeah yeah, save the galaxy from a threat we don't believe in or accept as you will but do it over there in the Terminus will ya?"

Ugh. I hope I can fix my mistake form ME1 and let them die in ME3.  Paragon points and the goodwil of the other 3 Council races be damned.

[Casuist]

Samara's account does not suggest Nihlus is corrupt per se. Rather, she reports on the "appearance" of him killing an unarmed civilian and therefore committing a crime. There's inadequate context and backstory to the incident to claim Nihlus was not justified.

[Yakko77]

Casuist wrote...

Samara's account does not suggest Nihlus is corrupt per se. Rather, she reports on the "appearance" of him killing an unarmed civilian and therefore committing a crime. There's inadequate context and backstory to the incident to claim Nihlus was not justified.

Good point. 

[AGogley]

DxWill10 wrote...

If the specters bother this much then..

Do the Quarians bother you? Afterall they made the Geth, theyre bad!
The Krogans? Theyre totally brutal and like, animal-ish
The Salarians? They neutered an entire species!
The Turians? They totally attacked us and stuff!
The Asari? Damn their superior diplomatic capabilities!

Weird diatribe. SPECTRES are government operatives. Your points relate to specific species.

[Ghurshog]

Saphra Deden wrote...

 The Spectres are a peculiar group. They are secret agents, super heroes, and also secret police. Though the game initially tries to impress us by talking about how important they are we eventually find out just how dark they can be. 

A Spectre could kill you for just about any reason and never be punished for it. The Council prefers to be as uninvolved as possible in Spectre activities. Saren was eventually delcared rogue, but he was their top agent for decades. More telling however, is the fact that his reputation was not secret. Everyone, including the Council, knew how ruthless and cold-blooded he was. They just didn't care. 

To pose a question, I ask: how would you feel if you found out your government employed secret agents who had total immunity from the law? The only person they reported to would be the President (or Prime Minister or w/e). No other authority in the land could touch them. Would you feel safe? Would you feel threatened? How would you feel about your government?

I find the question humorous as the US gov already does these things. The individuals might have more secrecy in real life and have more oversight but functionally they are exactly this. 

The pentagon, CIA, NSA, and any other national security apparatus has the potential to have 'Black' operatives. These groups have handlers and covers. 

Individuals that perform these tasks are essentially what spectres are.

The only thing is the scale in which spectres operate is infinitely more vast hence the rather epic scale of the story told in Mass Effect currently. The need to have a group of individuals that 'get results' is probably more necessary than it is for the small dirt ball we all live on. 

In the end no one should be surprised that goverments use illicit means to accomplish goals. its a story as old as human civilization. 

Modifié par Ghurshog, 28 mars 2011 - 04:37 .

[AGogley]

well, to be fair, CIA and NSA operatives are not supposed to act within the U.S. and are only supposed to be dealing with foreign threats, not internal crime problems. SPECTRES seem to have the opposite since the Citadel wont justify their use in non-Citadel controlled space.

[Ghurshog]

AGogley wrote...

well, to be fair, CIA and NSA operatives are not supposed to act within the U.S. and are only supposed to be dealing with foreign threats, not internal crime problems. SPECTRES seem to have the opposite since the Citadel wont justify their use in non-Citadel controlled space.

Those are what their charters say so that congress/senate will fund them. The reality is if these alphebet organizations want to run "black ops", they do. 

65 years of institutional experience makes it possible. Also remember what 'most' of galatic civilization knows about Spectres is boogy man stories. 

The reason we, as the observer of the story, know about the facts of them is because we are effectively 'given' a front row.

Just like in real life those that manage/handle 'black ops' have a lmited need to know about specific areas of any operation or organization. And if you do them long enough you get a sense of it all even if its just 'guess work' its educated 'guess work'.

Spectres interrigating or torturing for information comes from the same hand bag as Renditions and Assassinations come from. 

Modifié par Ghurshog, 28 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[AGogley]

Ghurshog wrote...

AGogley wrote...

well, to be fair, CIA and NSA operatives are not supposed to act within the U.S. and are only supposed to be dealing with foreign threats, not internal crime problems. SPECTRES seem to have the opposite since the Citadel wont justify their use in non-Citadel controlled space.

Those are what their charters say so that congress/senate will fund them. The reality is if these alphebet organizations want to run "black ops", they do. 

65 years of institutional experience makes it possible. Also remember what 'most' of galatic civilization knows about Spectres is boogy man stories. 

The reason we, as the observer of the story, know about the facts of them is because we are effectively 'given' a front row.

Just like in real life those that manage/handle 'black ops' have a lmited need to know about specific areas of any operation or organization. And if you do them long enough you get a sense of it all even if its just 'guess work' its educated 'guess work'.

Spectres interrigating or torturing for information comes from the same hand bag as Renditions and Assassinations come from. 

I agree...SPECTRES are functional because (1) they only report to the council as it seems in ME.  (2) Because nobody knows what they do, the ME universe treats them exactly as we would based on our TV/movie knowledge of "secret agents."  (that is with a cetain sense of awe).

Well, before Watergate the CIA and other intelligence apparatus were pretty much unchecked.  Thereafter, there were executive orders which banned the assination of foreign leaders.  I'm not entirely certain, but I thought there was either an executive order or laws that prevented clandestine operations in the U.S. proper.  But clearly there are covert operations (different than clandestine) that purportedly include assasinations.   In any case, its supposed to be in foreign and primarily "denial" areas.

Seal Team Six (or whatever they're calling it now) was actually formed because of the screw-ups in the Iran hostage affair due a lot to over compartmentalization of the various military functions.  I can personally testify in just my 12 years in government service, the right hand has no idea what the left hand does and is the worse for it.

[Volus Warlord]

Yakko77 wrote...

oksbad wrote...

I would completely and utterly oppose the introduction of such a force. They simply don't work in real life.

As a science fiction element though they are awesome.

Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Power does not corrupt men, men corrupt power.

[Praetor Knight]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Power does not corrupt men, men corrupt power.

Interesting, where did you come across that idea?

[ThunderSoul]

To pose a question, I ask: how would you feel if you found out your government employed secret agents who had total immunity from the law? The only person they reported to would be the President (or Prime Minister or w/e). No other authority in the land could touch them. Would you feel safe? Would you feel threatened? How would you feel about your government?

They are only human, so they could become power crazy and kill innocents just for fun before having their status revoked... just like Saren... grew out of control... I wouldn't like it and I would feel threatened, to bluntly answer your question...

[ThunderSoul]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Power does not corrupt men, men corrupt power.

Interesting, where did you come across that idea?

I'm sure he came across that idea either by being a philosopher or by contemplating on it somewhere... it is the nature of humanity to corrupt whatever we touch if we have the power... I'm pretty sure I would too, so don't count me as a saint... Perhaps other species in the universe don't even have the concept of corruption therefore they wouldn't be corrupting power, thus they could be trusted with absolute power...

[ThunderSoul]

DxWill10 wrote...

If the specters bother this much then..

Do the Quarians bother you? Afterall they made the Geth, theyre bad!
The Krogans? Theyre totally brutal and like, animal-ish
The Salarians? They neutered an entire species!
The Turians? They totally attacked us and stuff!
The Asari? Damn their superior diplomatic capabilities!

They are not bad for making the geth... they are suffering a lot more than others... and the geth aren't bad at all apparently if you played ME2. Just the heretic sect that split from the main geth group (to follow Sovereign and Saren)... Did you meet Legion yet? He saved Shepard's life...

[James2912]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

I find the question humorous as the US gov already does these things. The individuals might have more secrecy in real life and have more oversight but functionally they are exactly this.

I'm not sure I agree with you. I don't dispute that the US government has people in its employ who break the law, but I don't think the nature of that is anything like Spectres. A CIA agent can't walk into a police station and assume control over an investigation. The US government is a lot bigger, more complex, and beauracratic than the Citadel. As far as I can see anyway. A lot of what the "black operative" used by the US do is also sanctioned, under the table, by other governments. The recent Wikileaks fiasco showed this quite plainly.

These people also require a lot more support to stay protected. It isn't just the President who decides not to prosecute them. He needs the support of other branches of government. On the Citadel it is not the same. Nobody, absolutely nobody, in Citadel Space can take official action against the Spectre other than the three individual Councilors themselves.

Ghurshog wrote...

The only thing is the scale in which spectres operate is infinitely more vast...

Which is quite a difference. Fundamentally the Mass Effect galaxy is not any different from planet Earth. The oceans were simply replaced with space and the countries with species. There is nobody on Earth today who can walk around with the authority that a Spectre does.

Ghurshog wrote...

In the end no one should be surprised that goverments use illicit means to accomplish goals. its a story as old as human civilization. 

I agree completely.

I 100% agree with the above post subject matter.

[Comrade Goby]

Once Shepard is declared Emperor of the galaxy after defeating the Reapers they will be vital to eliminating any political dissidents.

A counter organization will be made to monitor them as well to ensure they don't plot against Shepard's reign.

[Ghurshog]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

I find the question humorous as the US gov already does these things. The individuals might have more secrecy in real life and have more oversight but functionally they are exactly this.

I'm not sure I agree with you. I don't dispute that the US government has people in its employ who break the law, but I don't think the nature of that is anything like Spectres. A CIA agent can't walk into a police station and assume control over an investigation. The US government is a lot bigger, more complex, and beauracratic than the Citadel. As far as I can see anyway. A lot of what the "black operative" used by the US do is also sanctioned, under the table, by other governments. The recent Wikileaks fiasco showed this quite plainly.

These people also require a lot more support to stay protected. It isn't just the President who decides not to prosecute them. He needs the support of other branches of government. On the Citadel it is not the same. Nobody, absolutely nobody, in Citadel Space can take official action against the Spectre other than the three individual Councilors themselves.

Ghurshog wrote...

The only thing is the scale in which spectres operate is infinitely more vast...

Which is quite a difference. Fundamentally the Mass Effect galaxy is not any different from planet Earth. The oceans were simply replaced with space and the countries with species. There is nobody on Earth today who can walk around with the authority that a Spectre does.

Ghurshog wrote...

In the end no one should be surprised that goverments use illicit means to accomplish goals. its a story as old as human civilization. 

I agree completely.

While the CIA would never 'openly' take over a domestic investigation, after all that is what the FBI is for, they can seriously influence or change the coarse of one.

Ultimately its the difference between between 'real' and 'fiction'. In ficition you don't have to worry about stepping on Joe Bob policeman's toes, while in real life such actions can have very real ramification. 

[AGogley]

Ghurshog wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

I find the question humorous as the US gov already does these things. The individuals might have more secrecy in real life and have more oversight but functionally they are exactly this.

I'm not sure I agree with you. I don't dispute that the US government has people in its employ who break the law, but I don't think the nature of that is anything like Spectres. A CIA agent can't walk into a police station and assume control over an investigation. The US government is a lot bigger, more complex, and beauracratic than the Citadel. As far as I can see anyway. A lot of what the "black operative" used by the US do is also sanctioned, under the table, by other governments. The recent Wikileaks fiasco showed this quite plainly.

These people also require a lot more support to stay protected. It isn't just the President who decides not to prosecute them. He needs the support of other branches of government. On the Citadel it is not the same. Nobody, absolutely nobody, in Citadel Space can take official action against the Spectre other than the three individual Councilors themselves.

Ghurshog wrote...

The only thing is the scale in which spectres operate is infinitely more vast...

Which is quite a difference. Fundamentally the Mass Effect galaxy is not any different from planet Earth. The oceans were simply replaced with space and the countries with species. There is nobody on Earth today who can walk around with the authority that a Spectre does.

Ghurshog wrote...

In the end no one should be surprised that goverments use illicit means to accomplish goals. its a story as old as human civilization. 

I agree completely.

While the CIA would never 'openly' take over a domestic investigation, after all that is what the FBI is for, they can seriously influence or change the coarse of one.

Ultimately its the difference between between 'real' and 'fiction'. In ficition you don't have to worry about stepping on Joe Bob policeman's toes, while in real life such actions can have very real ramification. 

Real world experience speaking here...usually it goes through channels.  CIA interferes by going through leaders of organizations that go to the leader of your organization who tells Joe Bob Policeman to stop investigating.