26 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

With major events happening in Cumberland that we never heard of again, it can be assumed that the libertarians didn't get the numbers they needed to have the circles try to pull away from the chantry sooner.. If the Libertarians actually achived their votes being in the majority wouldn't we have heard news of their attempts to pull away from the circle. (This isn't the DA2 ending events im referring to for those that are confused)

So.. That means that the Loyalists outnumber the Libertarians and that most mages want to stay under chantry rule? Then why are all the mages we meet in DA2 seemingly Libertarians and whatever that other new fraternatie is?

And why does the Annulment of the Kirkwall circle push the mages over the edge but if you annul the ferelden circle.. then nothing really happens?

This whole mage freedom thing, Well.. ok maybe the title is wrong there.. I get that they should want freedom.. I dont get that.... They dont want freedom?? well most of them anyhow.. otherwise we would hear things out of cumberland

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 23 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[Deylar]

Huh?

Did you purposely make this thread to circle jerk my head?

[Augustei]

Lol, perhaps I didn't construct my sentences correctly.. Im tired mmk =D.

in Dragon Age Awakening Wynne says that the circle of magi is meeting in Cumberland since the Libertarians want to pull away from the chantry entirely.. We dont end up hearing the outcome from this so presumeably nothing has changed which means the Loyalist Fraternatie (The ones loyal to the chantry) of mages outnumber the Libertarians (Who want to pull away from the chantry) I dont get that most mages seemingly dont want their freedom and want to remain under Chantry control

[Talladarr]

For the annulment reason is simple. In the Fereldin circle they assumed all was left were abominations, anyone left could be harboring a demon, and on top of that, the circle wasn't in the middle of a major settlement. in face, it's rather isolated. And if the Templars were being extra cruel, I think all of the loyalists would have become libertarians. Think about it, wouldn't you in that situation?

[Deylar]

Its 4am here. I'm going to come back to this. Cause I'm still not getting it. Sorry, tired as well. lol

[Talladarr]

Lol, it's after 6am here and I'm bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, or so the saying goes,

[Vanaer]

The point with the Kirkwall Circle get's pretty well summarized by Varric when he says that when Meredith squeezes tighter, the more the mages resist and the more they resist, the tighter Meredith squeezes. Most mages wouldn't have been so pro Freedom if they were treated with more respect and got more freedom within the Circle; the treatment of Meredith however ensured that even loyalists got to doubt Meredith.

Ferelden was quite different, in that the mages were treated conform the rules and with consent; they grudgingly accepted their fate. The Annulment had to be carried out because of derailments of mages, whereas within the Kirkwall circle the mages derailed only after being squeezed so hard on by Meredith.

[Ealos]

It is strange that there was no word from the College, and no real information on mage treatment outside Kirkwall, a city where the veil is incredibly thin, with lots of blood mages, and where the Templars are led by a lunatic. We do know that some Libertarians/apostates are becoming terrorists from Leliana (DLC), so at least some are more desperate. Mind you, making the mages more free isn't necessarily a libertarian goal - aequitarians don't necessarily think they're cursed and dangerous, they just don't want to provoke a total war (as Anders says in Awakening, not the best idea).

With regards to not wanting freedom, why start a war you can't win? Obviously they will be able to, given it's in the game, but on the face of it who's going to support them? It would be Circles and apostates against everyone, pretty much, if mages make the first move, they're a dangerous minority out for their own freedom, not general. There's an army of mage hunters, the general populace thinks (not always without reason) that you're evil sorcerers, there's so far no obvious political reason for a nation to side with the mages (other than Tevinter, and we know what people rightly think of the magisters) and no obvious dissent in the Chantry hierarchy (reformation-style) that might champion mage freedom.
And what would "winning" be, assuming they aren't crushed? Freedom granted to mages after the world gets exhausted by war? I can't see how this conflict is going to end without mages and non-mages becoming more opposed to each other, tbh.

(Also Kirkwall's annulment was illegal under Chantry law, has to be a Grand Cleric, I think, not a Knight-Commander, don't know if there are any exceptional circumstances that change this)

Modifié par Ealos, 23 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[Ealos]

Doublepost, sorry

Modifié par Ealos, 23 mars 2011 - 11:57 .

[eaKephas]

When the slaves were freed in the United States, many of them stayed put on the plantations if they could. Where else were they going to go? It's not like they had homes or jobs of their own.

This is similar. The Circle and the Templars provide a home and security for the mages. Plus, it's all most of them have ever known. I wouldn't characterize it as them "not wanting freedom." It's more like they don't want everything familiar about their life ripped away.

[ongnei]

I dont understand about Meredith,so in the end did she invoke the Right of Annulment because the idol told her to or she herself wanted to?The ending makes me think that the idol is scare of mage and Hawke-.-

[Talladarr]

The idol is MADE out of Lyrium! Have you READ the codex entries about lyrium in DA:O/A???
To anyone but a Dwarf, Lyrium is NOT a good thing to touch, and it's even dangerous to THEM if it gets in the blood.

[ongnei]

Yes I did READ the codex...Dont need to get so work up...Did you do the quest when they went back to Bartrend house?Even Varic himself is addicted to the idol..

[Talladarr]

Exactly, so why is it hard to believe that Meredeth just went coocoo?

[ongnei]

Nono,what Im asking is,did Meredith do the Annulment because of the idol that tempt her to or because she simply hate the mage??Dont talk about the last part when she uses the idol..

[Talladarr]

Well, I'd say it's a bit of both. I can't quite remember which act you do the Bartrand mansion part, but she gets it a little before that. And she was hard on the mages before she got it, so it was likely a combination of the two

[ongnei]

Hmmm maybe..

[Wulfram]

I think the idol makes her more paranoid and hostile, but doesn't change her underlying opinion.  She's stronger willed than Bartrand and doesn't go truly crazy until the end.

[ZombiePowered]

The reason mages all over Thedas are furious over Kirkwall is because the circle in Kirkwall was being annulled for something they did not do, and that isn't even mentioning all the other injustice they had suffered at Meredith's hands, even before she got the idol. The important aftermath of the battle at the Gallows is that many mages escaped, and were able to spread word of what had really been happening in Kirkwall. Meredith wasn't exactly a big fan of mages contacting the outside world, so this hadn't been happening before.
Other circles who were previously neutral or in support of chantry oversight probably heard the Kirkwall story and realized how easily that could have been them. So they rebelled.
Also, people don't usually start wars with a clear end goal in mind. Unrest is more about what people don't want; the current revolts in the middle east are over who people don't want in power, they don't really have a clear plan of their end game.
As for whether the mages can win, don't forget that Tevinter is ruled by magisters who ruled through their own massive power. Whether or not they can overcome an exalted march is another matter, of course, but again they likely weren't thinking about that, and if it comes to a mass annulment of the circles I doubt they'll go down quietly (and I'm sure that an exalted march to restore order to the circles would end up going after Tevinter as well). All the mages in Thedas can do quite a bit of damage to the world.
Finally, consider that some Templars are also rebelling (probably over the lyrium leash the chantry uses to control them), and that unrest tends to reproduce itself. As people get scared about the mages, they'll become dissatisfied over their own government's lack of effective action against them, which could lead to more revolution. The whole situation can easily bring the world to its knees, which then might produce suitable conditions for a Qunari invasion. So yes, this situation is bad, very bad. And mostly irrational. Rebellion rarely is the result of an articulated plan for the future, its typically just opposition to the current structure.

[ZombiePowered]

The reason mages all over Thedas are furious over Kirkwall is because the circle in Kirkwall was being annulled for something they did not do, and that isn't even mentioning all the other injustice they had suffered at Meredith's hands, even before she got the idol. The important aftermath of the battle at the Gallows is that many mages escaped, and were able to spread word of what had really been happening in Kirkwall. Meredith wasn't exactly a big fan of mages contacting the outside world, so this hadn't been happening before.
Other circles who were previously neutral or in support of chantry oversight probably heard the Kirkwall story and realized how easily that could have been them. So they rebelled.

Also, people don't usually start wars with a clear end goal in mind. Unrest is more about what people don't want; the current revolts in the middle east are over who people don't want in power, they don't really have a clear plan of their end game.

As for whether the mages can win, don't forget that Tevinter is ruled by magisters who ruled through their own massive power. Whether or not they can overcome an exalted march is another matter, of course, but again they likely weren't thinking about that, and if it comes to a mass annulment of the circles I doubt they'll go down quietly (and I'm sure that an exalted march to restore order to the circles would end up going after Tevinter as well). All the mages in Thedas can do quite a bit of damage to the world.

Finally, consider that some Templars are also rebelling (probably over the lyrium leash the chantry uses to control them), and that unrest tends to reproduce itself. As people get scared about the mages, they'll become dissatisfied over their own government's lack of effective action against them, which could lead to more revolution. The whole situation can easily bring the world to its knees, which then might produce suitable conditions for a Qunari invasion. So yes, this situation is bad, very bad. And mostly irrational. Rebellion rarely is the result of an articulated plan for the future, its typically just opposition to the current structure.

[Pandaman102]

Nothing to get, it's a forced conclusion. We've only seen two Knight-Commanders so far - bat**** insane Meredith and reasonable Greagor, and for every corrupt, abusive Templar introduced there's also a sympathetic, reasonable one to balance them out. There's nothing beyond Anders' constant whining that indicates things are nearly as bad in other Circles and Meredith was already an exception since she was running around with the corrupted lyrium poisoning her mind.

What Varric says doesn't make sense either. If you side with the Templars he states in the epilogue that mages realized that Templars could be defied... totally ignoring the fact that an entire Circle was slaughtered despite resorting to blood magic. If you side with the mages he says the same thing... totally ignoring the fact that an entire Circle was slaughtered despite resorting to blood magic (except Hawke, who wasn't part of the Circle and shouldn't have been a target of Annulment anyway). How does any hope of having a successful rebellion being utterly crushed encourage every Circle to rebel?

And why would Templars break from the Chantry if the Chantry controls the lyrium trade? Aren't they sort of addicted to the stuff? There's only so much smugglers can provide and the dwarves don't seem the type to do charity work by providing lyrium on the cheap to a bunch of rebels.

[HopHazzard]

Pandaman102 wrote...
What Varric says doesn't make sense either. If you side with the Templars he states in the epilogue that mages realized that Templars could be defied... totally ignoring the fact that an entire Circle was slaughtered despite resorting to blood magic. If you side with the mages he says the same thing... totally ignoring the fact that an entire Circle was slaughtered despite resorting to blood magic (except Hawke, who wasn't part of the Circle and shouldn't have been a target of Annulment anyway). How does any hope of having a successful rebellion being utterly crushed encourage every Circle to rebel?

Probably the same reason 'Remember the Alamo' became a battlecry. It's inspirational. Not aspirational.

[Dean_the_Young]

Talladarr wrote...

The idol is MADE out of Lyrium! Have you READ the codex entries about lyrium in DA:O/A???
To anyone but a Dwarf, Lyrium is NOT a good thing to touch, and it's even dangerous to THEM if it gets in the blood.

Runes are also made out of lyrium, but putting them in swords doesn't poison us. Lyrium potions are also made out of significant amounts of lyrium, and we can guzzle those down.

Lyrium can be processed into forms in which it is no longer dangerous.

[TheAwesomologist]

The entire Circle of Kirkwall wasn't slaughtered, at least if you sided with the mages. It's heavily implied that many mages simply escaped (as per Orsino's orders to escape if you sided with the Mages). The last battle is really just Hawke trying to save as many Mages as possible. Yeah a bunch died, but many went on to spread word and thus implied that other circles are revolting as well.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

With major events happening in Cumberland that we never heard of again, it can be assumed that the libertarians didn't get the numbers they needed to have the circles try to pull away from the chantry sooner.. If the Libertarians actually achived their votes being in the majority wouldn't we have heard news of their attempts to pull away from the circle. (This isn't the DA2 ending events im referring to for those that are confused)

The meeting in Cumberland likely didn't get enough votes to warrant breaking free from the Chantry. I'd assume that Wynne and Ines managed to convince enough people not to risk emancipating themselves from the Chantry, since the primary concern Wynne has is the response the Chantry will give if they tried it. Wynne and Anders initially make it clear that the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free when we meet her in Amaranthine, but I'd wager that the act of defiance in Kirkwall showed the mages of the Circles that the "might templars could be defied," as Varric narrated. At the hub of eastern power over Thedas, the mages stood against the templars. It changed all the rules.