476 réponses à ce sujet

[mordarwarlock]

Example:

Me (a motorcyle enthusiast) : Man who can say riding a motorcyle is intimidating? You just ride it like a bike but use the throttle and clutch and have to shift gears.

A person who was never even ridden a bike: Uhhhh

To a person that has not ever played anything similar to an RPG (I.E. Someone who has only played a game like God of War where you simply have to press buttons in succession to execute combos and go through the linear levels) introducing them to system of attributes, talents, inventory, party management, crafting, skills, yes...will be intimidating for most. Its not that they are dumb (just as someone who has never ridden a bike before isn't dumb) its just that they are limited in their experience.

So please. Get off your RPG high horse. You are no more intelligent for playing RPG's than Joe Console is for playing God of War.

so, just because of a few people that don't know how to ride bikes nor do they want to or cared to, you have to put training wheels on them so they suddenly feel like "they want to"? it does not make sense whatsoever

your analogy is bad, and you should feel bad

Modifié par mordarwarlock, 23 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[1Nosphorus1]

Baelyn wrote...

Do you have proof that it was during this developmental stage that they instituted these specific changes? Just because they started "story-boarding" the game before DA:O's official launch hardly means they decided the entirety of the changes between the two.

Because Brent Knowles and others have made points about DA2 without fear that EA will sack their ass.

Brent Knowles left because of the direction the game was going in, protaganist that had a pre-determined history/life, basics of the plot, probably concerning location, general art designs (Elfs/Qunari), there was probably a time limit that they also had to have the game released by.

Inon Zur went on record saying that

"Unlike other titles from Bioware, this [score] was kind of a rush job.
EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game
was really being pushed hard to be released now."

The marketing campaign mainly consisted of awesome and slamming Origins combat system, so yeah think what you will, but closing your eyes and ears won't make the truth dissapear.

[CG50]

I think that if DAO wasn't an old school RPG, DA2 would have been better received. I play on the console and the changes work well for it, although it fixed what i didn't like about origins, it created different issues.

In the end i enjoyed DA2 and DA:O, i just hope they have a DA3 and have a longer time to create it, even i could tell it was rushed.

Modifié par CG50, 23 mars 2011 - 11:30 .

[Lord Mephisto]

Cuthlan wrote...
Because multiplayer absolutely RUINED Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and NWN.

Multiplayer ruined those games? Please, do elaborate.

[gatorboy128]

Abraxas11 wrote...

I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"

I forgot the kubler-ross model...what comes after denial?

Edit: Sorry, didn't link www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview

LMAO! Oh man, that's a riot. Needless to say, I haven't heard that. Once.

[HBC Dresden]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Do you have proof that it was during this developmental stage that they instituted these specific changes? Just because they started "story-boarding" the game before DA:O's official launch hardly means they decided the entirety of the changes between the two.

Because Brent Knowles and others have made points about DA2 without fear that EA will sack their ass.

Brent Knowles left because of the direction the game was going in, protaganist that had a pre-determined history/life, basics of the plot, probably concerning location, general art designs (Elfs/Qunari), there was probably a time limit that they also had to have the game released by.

Inon Zur went on record saying that

"Unlike other titles from Bioware, this [score] was kind of a rush job.
EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game
was really being pushed hard to be released now."

The marketing campaign mainly consisted of awesome and slamming Origins combat system, so yeah think what you will, but closing your eyes and ears won't make the truth dissapear.

Knowles' reasons though are not the reasons I have problems with this game. I have no problem with the protagonist, plot, art designs, etc. I actually liked those things very much.

My main complain is what Inon Zur (and I think Knowles also) alluded too: the time limit leading to shortcuts/rushing/lack of polish.

Modifié par HBC Dresden, 23 mars 2011 - 11:40 .

[Prince Keldar]

Wow!!! OP you talk a three page interview and took ONE line from it???? It was a great interview. ML acknowledged that reusing areas was a risk and he agreed that it didn't work out like they hoped it would.

Also, I have heard people say that it was hard to go back to Origins because of the difference in speed. (especially if you play as a mage).

[birdmanjr]

^ i dont get what kinda risk hes talking about.. so he thougth we wouldnt notice? what a retard.

[Beovuk]

@keldar
thread is not about the interview, i think you need to look at the title. i am also suprised that lead designer has such dislike of the original game or use that in defense of his creation.

@bird
stop trolling.

[TheMadCat]

Prince Keldar wrote...

Wow!!! OP you talk a three page interview and took ONE line from it???? It was a great interview. ML acknowledged that reusing areas was a risk and he agreed that it didn't work out like they hoped it would.

This is going to sound way harsher then it's meant to be, but how can any competent project manager who plays a new build of the game or specific area damn near every week, sit there and say "Yeah, these large number of reused areas will work, this doesn't look bad." Hell there doesn't even seem like there was a serious attempt to mask the problem. I just don't understand how someone in his position can make a comment like that and expect me or anyone for that matter to take them seriously. It's insulting to me intelligence.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 24 mars 2011 - 12:00 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Well it does reflect on his career so of course he's going to see the good reviews and quote them.

[Otterwarden]

Gatt9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
a) I know EA used the EAspybot for DAO, so I know they have some data on something. I do know that the way their data is gathered is prone to error and missing a median.

Of course it is the reason to justify the changes. That has been seen time and time again by the suits from EA Bioware. 


What they really thought is not what I am commenting on. I am saying the data gathered is inconclusive yet still  used to as conclusive support for the changes.

If you read the level designer's interview linked here and currently on the front page,  he specifically comments that DA2 was already designed and being worked on before DAO released,  when these changes were decided upon,  there wasn't any data yet.

Bioware didn't use data to make these decisions,  they made them for some other reason before they even knew how well DAO would sell.

Personally,  my money is on EA.  I strongly suspect EA made it clear they do not make RPGs.

That's where I would place my money.  Probably said something like "if you can convert it into something like ME2 fine, otherwise shut it down.  It takes too long to think up and design all those multiple storylines and the console crowd doesn't like to do crafting/alchemy/codex reading anyway." 

It seems, at least to one You Tube game reviewer, that those who want to customize companion armor should just "go play with dolls". 

[Prince Keldar]

birdmanjr wrote...

^ i dont get what kinda risk hes talking about.. so he thougth we wouldnt notice? what a retard.

I think he meant that they were hoping that the story/gameplay would outweigh the reused areas. 

Personally I didn't mind it.  I mean the buildings for example, if you look at some of the old mill towns in the US (I am in NC), the houses were built to the same blueprints.  They look identical.  Also, there was a new school built when i went to High School and the county also wanted to build one on the other side of the county.  In order to save money they used the same blueprints.  Only the school colors were different but both outside and inside they were identical.

Sorry about that lol but my point is that the same designs do occur in reality, so I don't worry much about the reused areas.  It happens and, my opinion, it doesn't take away from the story.

Modifié par Prince Keldar, 24 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[Prince Keldar]

Beovuk wrote...

@keldar
thread is not about the interview, i think you need to look at the title. i am also suprised that lead designer has such dislike of the original game or use that in defense of his creation.

Your right I didn't look at the title close enough, but I don't think it is a dislike of the game, it is just that they were trying to improve gameplay in DA2, and in some ways they succeeded and in others they didn't.

Modifié par Prince Keldar, 24 mars 2011 - 12:19 .

[MonkeyLungs]

Didn't Laidlaw say he couldn't finish DA:O? It was too slow and plodding and all that jazz?

[Prince Keldar]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Didn't Laidlaw say he couldn't finish DA:O? It was too slow and plodding and all that jazz?

No, he said he had seen other people's feedback that said it was too slow, etc.  At least in this interview thats what he said. 

[Merced652]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Didn't Laidlaw say he couldn't finish DA:O? It was too slow and plodding and all that jazz?

If he actually stated that then i'm thoroughly disapointed with these forums. You'd of thought they would've informed me of such a development. Had i know that i'd probably just cut ties completely, not even troll the forums anymore. 

Modifié par Merced652, 24 mars 2011 - 12:27 .

[Baelyn]

mordarwarlock wrote...

Example:

Me (a motorcyle enthusiast) : Man who can say riding a motorcyle is intimidating? You just ride it like a bike but use the throttle and clutch and have to shift gears.

A person who was never even ridden a bike: Uhhhh

To a person that has not ever played anything similar to an RPG (I.E. Someone who has only played a game like God of War where you simply have to press buttons in succession to execute combos and go through the linear levels) introducing them to system of attributes, talents, inventory, party management, crafting, skills, yes...will be intimidating for most. Its not that they are dumb (just as someone who has never ridden a bike before isn't dumb) its just that they are limited in their experience.

So please. Get off your RPG high horse. You are no more intelligent for playing RPG's than Joe Console is for playing God of War.

so, just because of a few people that don't know how to ride bikes nor do they want to or cared to, you have to put training wheels on them so they suddenly feel like "they want to"? it does not make sense whatsoever

your analogy is bad, and you should feel bad

I'm sorry to break it to you; but I don't feel bad. 

"just because of a few" - You do realize that us hardcore RPG fans are in the minority here right? Not the other way around. So your entire dispute is flawed from the start. They weren't trying to make it appeal to a smaller audience; they were trying to broaden it. 

Again, I never said it was right either way. I simply said they accomplished what they set out to do. Make an accessible RPG for people that don't have extensive experience with the more "hardcore" RPG's.

[Baelyn]

HBC Dresden wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Do you have proof that it was during this developmental stage that they instituted these specific changes? Just because they started "story-boarding" the game before DA:O's official launch hardly means they decided the entirety of the changes between the two.

Because Brent Knowles and others have made points about DA2 without fear that EA will sack their ass.

Brent Knowles left because of the direction the game was going in, protaganist that had a pre-determined history/life, basics of the plot, probably concerning location, general art designs (Elfs/Qunari), there was probably a time limit that they also had to have the game released by.

Inon Zur went on record saying that

"Unlike other titles from Bioware, this [score] was kind of a rush job.
EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game
was really being pushed hard to be released now."

The marketing campaign mainly consisted of awesome and slamming Origins combat system, so yeah think what you will, but closing your eyes and ears won't make the truth dissapear.

Knowles' reasons though are not the reasons I have problems with this game. I have no problem with the protagonist, plot, art designs, etc. I actually liked those things very much.

My main complain is what Inon Zur (and I think Knowles also) alluded too: the time limit leading to shortcuts/rushing/lack of polish.

Not only this, but do I have to remind you (1Nosphorus1) of multitudes of people that have left development teams and gone on to express their frustrations at the game?

Using a disgruntled ex-employee is hardly a help in your argument. I read his thoughts, although well put together it was obvious he was a bit bitter. Not the best source IMO.

In addition you realize that Inon Zul had very little (pretty much ZERO) involvment and knowledge into the actual development in that game? Which is even given as a disclaimer at the bottom of that interview that you quoted. I'm not trying to argue that the game wasn't rushed (honestly any AAA game that comes out within this small of a time span is rushed IMO) but you weren't involved in the development process therefore you can't possibly know what really went down. There are far too many people that think they "know all" when it comes to how the development went and what exactly is going on with EA and Bioware. If you don't work there, then I don't buy it. You can speculate all you want but its all left in that "unknown" category.

[Cuthlan]

Filament wrote...

Lord Mephisto wrote...

Cuthlan wrote...
Because multiplayer absolutely RUINED Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and NWN.

Multiplayer ruined those games? Please, do elaborate.

I believe that was sarcasm.

Indeed.

Point was that Bioware actually has a pretty decent history when it comes to multiplayer in this genre. I just can't see the prospect of multiplayer in Dragon Age as a negative.

[1Nosphorus1]

Baelyn wrote...
*Massive amounts of ignorance*

I can't believe what I just read, the so called disclaimer is Zur talking about bugs in the score that would need to be fixed, he had no involvement of them incorporating said scores etc but he had been involved with the development almost from the start, in another interview:

"I think I began at the beginning of last year, or even a little bit
earlier. The whole thing took roughly a year of composing, maybe a
little bit more. The previous Dragon Age took closer to two years,
because it took them a much longer time to put together the game. So, it
really depends on when you’re being brought to the project."

Comparing the blog from Brent and Zur's own accounts, it just goes to show that he has been involved from pretty much day one creating scores to suit the games scenes and general feeling, he has to have some sort of involvement in the games progression/story to do his work. Besides he had a deadline just like the development team did, I'm sure he had his fair share of chats with the big wigs.

Also you make a point that unless it comes from Bioware themselves apparently all information surrounding them is moot, which is again a rather presumptious thing to make isn't it, for example look what happened to Infinity Ward after Activision tried to force them into a direction they didn't want to go into, 46 employees left along with the lead designers.

It's obvious you're trying to defend the game as much as possible from your standpoint but what ground do you have when you can provide little to no evidence?

How would those employees who spent years creating Dragon Age: Origins feel when the marketing campaign and interviews surrounding the sequel was mostly slandering the games high points and saying that DA2 will be awesome in comparison?

[Cobrawar]

Brenus wrote...

And obviously you are completely unaware that Bioware started out and were made successful by only making PC RPGs right?

Its so wonderful of them to completely abandon their loyal fanbase to gain console derps instead who like dumb and simplified hack and slash games. (sarcasm).

lolz@console derps

[MonkeyLungs]

Prince Keldar wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Didn't Laidlaw say he couldn't finish DA:O? It was too slow and plodding and all that jazz?

No, he said he had seen other people's feedback that said it was too slow, etc.  At least in this interview thats what he said. 

You're right, thank you.

[DiatribeEQ]

While I've yet to finish DA2 (between work & reading my recent Warhammer 40k books has been getting in the way), I can honestly say that I will probably only be putting in 1 play through with DA2 & however many hours that it takes me to do it. Which is sad, because I had 160+ hours poured into DA:O with many states of completion. It does feel like it came out a year sooner than it should've & with that year less of development time factored into it's design, too many cuts (for me at least) were made to meet the deadline. As a result, that "Wow...this is such a great game, I think I'm going to play it again. Oh look, there's DLC, let's go and buy it and play through it all with each of my characters (repeat with each character). Hey, let me tell everyone how much I'm enjoying DA:O on the various forums when the subject is brought up." With DA2? I just don't feel connected to it like I did with DA:O.

I'm not saying that DA2's a bad game. Far from it. It's a good game that could've been a helluvalot better if given the proper time. I guess my "Can Bioware NOT make a game that's AAA quality" question has finally been met (for me at least). Heck, soon as the last DLC launches for ME2, I'll pick it up as well as LotSB and then do up a fresh Shepard in ME1 and do my "long, long put off, but always wanted to do" setup of "Max Paragon, Every Mission & as high a lvl as possible to import into ME1 & then continue to ME2"

Anyways, I'm rambling.