476 réponses à ce sujet

[Baelyn]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
*Massive amounts of ignorance*

I can't believe what I just read, the so called disclaimer is Zur talking about bugs in the score that would need to be fixed, he had no involvement of them incorporating said scores etc but he had been involved with the development almost from the start, in another interview:

"I think I began at the beginning of last year, or even a little bit
earlier. The whole thing took roughly a year of composing, maybe a
little bit more. The previous Dragon Age took closer to two years,
because it took them a much longer time to put together the game. So, it
really depends on when you’re being brought to the project."

Comparing the blog from Brent and Zur's own accounts, it just goes to show that he has been involved from pretty much day one creating scores to suit the games scenes and general feeling, he has to have some sort of involvement in the games progression/story to do his work. Besides he had a deadline just like the development team did, I'm sure he had his fair share of chats with the big wigs.

Also you make a point that unless it comes from Bioware themselves apparently all information surrounding them is moot, which is again a rather presumptious thing to make isn't it, for example look what happened to Infinity Ward after Activision tried to force them into a direction they didn't want to go into, 46 employees left along with the lead designers.

It's obvious you're trying to defend the game as much as possible from your standpoint but what ground do you have when you can provide little to no evidence?

How would those employees who spent years creating Dragon Age: Origins feel when the marketing campaign and interviews surrounding the sequel was mostly slandering the games high points and saying that DA2 will be awesome in comparison?

Massive amounts of ignorance. classy.

What evidence do I need to provide? I liked the game. Did you not read the section of my post when I said that I am not arguing the game was developed in a very short amount of time for what it is? And thats all that your "evidence" shows. That the game took less time to make than DA:O. And just because they show him scenes from the game doesn't not mean he knows ANYTHING technically about the game/its progress/ and the limitations put on Bioware by EA.

I'm not making the point that only truth comes from Bioware's lips, but it is astounding the amount of people that feel they know everything that went down in those DA2 development meeting's and EA marketing sessions. They don't. They only people that know this would be the people that work there. So until there is proof that EA said "BIOWARE YOU MAKE DA2 FAST AND DESTROY DA:O BECAUSE ITS FANS SUCK" then its pure speculation. Not that it isn't true, but it simply can't be taken as pure fact.

You use the word slandering way too loosely. I have never once seen DA:O slandered by any Bioware employee. Did they acknowledge it had problems? Yes. Did they say they were trying to make those better in DA2. Yes. Thats about it. Thats what developers do with sequels. Improve what they feel needed improving from the first ones.

Modifié par Baelyn, 24 mars 2011 - 01:36 .

[Reveal3]

I'm almost done the campaign and in no way am I sorry I bought the game. I probably wont buy the dlc, but still very happy with graphics and combat.

[supertouch]

your argument is derailed by the reception origins received. "hardcore rpg players" may be in the minority, but most would have been pleased with an inspired, faithful sequel.

[mordarwarlock]

I'm sorry to break it to you; but I don't feel bad.

you should

"just because of a few" - You do realize that us hardcore RPG fans are in the minority here right? Not the other way around. So your entire dispute is flawed from the start. They weren't trying to make it appeal to a smaller audience; they were trying to broaden it.

Again, I never said it was right either way. I simply said they accomplished what they set out to do. Make an accessible RPG for people that don't have extensive experience with the more "hardcore" RPG's.

which is still wrong, how many people drive motorbikes in comparison to cars for example?, again, your analogy is just awful, you compared dumbing down RPG's to appeal to CoD crowd to motorbikes

in which I again say, just because of people who just DON'T like to Ride bikes, do not want to learn how to ride want, nor do they care about bikes companies should put training wheels onto bikes just so they suddenly want to?

this is the very same case with DA 2, and the reception, ideally should be HUGE, because, like you said, RPG gamers are few compared to everything else, yet, it is the complete opposite, DA 2 scored lower in both consoles and PC's and the reception is less than favorable

again, your analogy just illustrates how wrong it is to appeal to a crowd that simply didn't even cared about such genre (or motorbikes in your case), because in the end, you get a half-way product, aleniating those that liked your product to begin with and just not appealing to the "crowd" you wanted your "bike" to be dumbed down for

why? no matter how much training wheels you put on a bike, I still won't feel the urge to suddenly want to ride it, or learn about them, much like CoD FPS/TPS tards....I mean, gamers, won't care for an RPG, no matter how dumbed down you could make it for them

unless of course, you stopped making an RPG altogether

[Baelyn]

mordarwarlock wrote...

I'm sorry to break it to you; but I don't feel bad.

you should

Isn't that sweet.

"just because of a few" - You do realize that us hardcore RPG fans are in the minority here right? Not the other way around. So your entire dispute is flawed from the start. They weren't trying to make it appeal to a smaller audience; they were trying to broaden it.

Again, I never said it was right either way. I simply said they accomplished what they set out to do. Make an accessible RPG for people that don't have extensive experience with the more "hardcore" RPG's.

which is still wrong, how many people drive motorbikes in comparison to cars for example?, again, your analogy is just awful, you compared dumbing down RPG's to appeal to CoD crowd to motorbikes

Again you fail to understand. 

I never once compared the number of people who ride motorcycles to cars. My point in the analogy was the mechanics (not real life threat like you said before...not number of people who like motorcycles vs. cars) but the MECHANICS...can you really not grasp this? Stop putting words in my mouth I did not say. 

in which I again say, just because of people who just DON'T like to Ride bikes, do not want to learn how to ride want, nor do they care about bikes companies should put training wheels onto bikes just so they suddenly want to?

this is the very same case with DA 2, and the reception, ideally should be HUGE, because, like you said, RPG gamers are few compared to everything else, yet, it is the complete opposite, DA 2 scored lower in both consoles and PC's and the reception is less than favorable

Reception is less than favorable according to who? Some fans on a forum? This hardly represents the total sales of Dragon Age 2. DA2 "scoring" lower on some review sites has nothing to do with this. As I said in another thread, if they truly are going for extending the playability for Dragon Age to the casual player you would never see that reflected on forums or reviews sites for the simple fact: Casual gamers (for the most part, there are always exceptions) don't go post on forums when they like a game or go write up reviews on Metacritic. Please provide proof that Dragon Age 2 is a failure in this way. Real, accurate sales figures yet to be seen. I'm not sure if you remember this, but DA:O got very mixed reviews on launch as well. It was not until well later that it gained its extreme popularity.

again, your analogy just illustrates how wrong it is to appeal to a crowd that simply didn't even cared about such genre (or motorbikes in your case), because in the end, you get a half-way product, aleniating those that liked your product to begin with and just not appealing to the "crowd" you wanted your "bike" to be dumbed down for

How do you know they don't care? Provide proof that they didn't gain any of these people that are not as familiar with RPGs. I know several of my friends who would be classified as "COD console gamers" that have bought DA2 and enjoyed it while they never wanted to finish DA:O when they tried it. Who are you to speak for them and say they don't care? In my opinion (and many others on this forum mind you) it wasn't a "half-baked product" and was very enjoyable, fixing alot of the "bad" that DA:O had.

why? no matter how much training wheels you put on a bike, I still won't feel the urge to suddenly want to ride it, or learn about them, much like CoD FPS/TPS tards....I mean, gamers, won't care for an RPG, no matter how dumbed down you could make it for them

Well here you go again insulting people that don't like playing the same games as you. This tosses alot of your credibility right out the window FYI. I'll say it again....Personal preference on what type of game you play has nothing to do with your intelligence and suggesting anything to the contrary is just absurd and completely unfounded. 

The reason (other than the obvious financial aspects) they wanted to expand the game was because they saw games like Assassin's Creed and CoD adapting alot of RPG like elements which games like those had never touched on before (getting upgrades, earning points to put in unique abilities etc) and they felt like this may have opened the door to get them to experiement and try something new (like an RPG) but wanted to make it accessible to someone not familiar with these concepts. In my opinion they did this very well while still holding true to alot of the core aspects of DA:O. No, the game was not perfect. But it was damn good in my opinion.

[rpx78noob]

Abraxas11 wrote...

I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"

hawke.

[Exzander1]

Well, to be fair, there actually are quite a few people out there who didn't like Origins but like DA2 because it suits what they like better, so it's not as if he's lying or making up stories.

Personally, I like both games roughly the same, but if I was forced to choose I'd pick Origins simply because I dislike recycled dungeons and DA:O had more locations.

Modifié par Exzander1, 24 mars 2011 - 04:28 .

[lx_theo]

So people here are attacking him for pointing out there are q good amount of people who like the game? How am i not surprised?

[DungeonLord]

There are a lot of people who are disappointed. They won't go away just because Bioware has managed to shift their focus to another cash group who may value flashiness above depth.

All this bickering over who likes and who doesn't like the game is pointless also. NOBODY will change anyone else's opinion, though some may be helped to put words on what they feel.

Personally I think the majority of the game, the combat and enemies, has become insufferable to the point of extreme tedium due to stupid scaling and waves. I'm happy to see others voice similar opinions, because it validates my observations. Of course the same goes for those who love the new dumbed down game play. They see others who agree with them and feel validated.

The two groups will never meet in the middle, but there's room enough for both.

I'm pretty sure nobody here wants to hate on Bioware. The negativity is simply a result of their latest product and those who feel it didn't meet expectations.

[lx_theo]

It's when expectation are so incredibly high and SPECIFIC that people start looking stupid with their complaints

[TJSolo]

Baelyn wrote...

Do you have proof that it was during this developmental stage that they instituted these specific changes? Just because they started "story-boarding" the game before DA:O's official launch hardly means they decided the entirety of the changes between the two.

This would require me to find interviews and dev diarys since no single one references all the specfic changes back to their data gathering technique.
I checked out a couple of the Laidlaw and production crew interviews from EAFrance and I can't help but have the same reaction as the Seeker did to Varric's initial flashback.
Listening to those people's conviction for their decision at the time and now having played DA2 makes be embarrassed for them.

Modifié par TJSolo, 24 mars 2011 - 05:00 .

[koshiee]

only read the first page but I said that I couldn't play DAO again after DA2 cuz the combat was too slow and a lot of other commentators in this forum said the same thing.

[PrinceLionheart]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I just read the funniest thing. Hyper Dimensional Neptunia has a higher user score than DA2.

As for Mike... Is he related to Charlie Sheen?

I guess that means Bioware is Biowinning.

[ItachiBR]

Well i love origins played for more than 80 hours and i would play again, and i don't mind the battle speed at all.
But DA2 really disappointed me more than 20 hours on the same town going back and forth to the same places, all female companions suck no appeal at all (really miss Morrigan and Leliana).
I believe DA2 was made for new players and for the them the game was great but for all the rest the game sucked.
So i just wonder what they gonna do on DA3 a point and click game for 7 years old players or something epic like origins IS.
But one thing is right bioware is not gonna catch me on DA3 with tomes rings and pre-orders usuless things like they did with DA2 im gonna wait for the game to be released and then decide to buy or not

Sorry my english guys =p

[Wolfva2]

Abraxas11 wrote...

I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"

I forgot the kubler-ross model...what comes after denial?

Edit: Sorry, didn't link www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview

Without having read any of the other responces, did you by chance ever look at the DA-O forums shortly after the game came out?  I'll give you a hint....it looked just like THIS forum.  Full of people talking about how much the game sucked, how Bioware dropped the ball, failed in expectations, etc.  Further, if you've even read THIS forum, you would see there are people who think 2 is better then Origens.  So.  Who exactly is in denial here?

Let's be honest folks.  EVERY SINGLE GAME that comes out is panned in the forums by the haters who think it's the worst dreck that was ever produced.  I can't think of one game that wasn't flamed in the forums.  No matter how successful a game is, the haters will always flock to the forums to try and get an ego boost by slamming it.

[Dark Specie]

Wolfva2 wrote...
Without having read any of the other responces, did you by chance ever look at the DA-O forums shortly after the game came out?  I'll give you a hint....it looked just like THIS forum.  Full of people talking about how much the game sucked, how Bioware dropped the ball, failed in expectations, etc.  Further, if you've even read THIS forum, you would see there are people who think 2 is better then Origens.  So.  Who exactly is in denial here?

Let's be honest folks.  EVERY SINGLE GAME that comes out is panned in the forums by the haters who think it's the worst dreck that was ever produced.  I can't think of one game that wasn't flamed in the forums.  No matter how successful a game is, the haters will always flock to the forums to try and get an ego boost by slamming it.

True, there's always those who complain - but if there are many enough, maybe they have a point? And a company should listen to the complaints the complainers have, to try and see it to that those complaints aren't repeated.

Plus, the reviews were better last time

[Wolfva2]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I just read the funniest thing. Hyper Dimensional Neptunia has a higher user score than DA2.

As for Mike... Is he related to Charlie Sheen?

I guess that means Bioware is Biowinning.

Here ya go...
www.cad-comic.com/cad/20110304

[Sanguinerin]

Ignoring the Console/PC parts of this interview, I can't say that this interview is very uplifting. One of the lines that bothers me the most is this one:

"Well it's hard to know exactly what's going on with scores that are really, really negative."

What's going on with those scores involves things that people didn't like (whether stand-alone or in comparison to other games). Usually, genuinely negative scores are also backed up with feedback. Someone is rating low because they actually care about the producers or product that they're rating.

Actually, Laidlaw's entire response to that question bothers me, especially this part:

"Wow, this is just too different and I cannot handle it."

Dragon Age II is set in the same world but in a different location and with a different story. I expect to see differences. However, I also expect improvement and I didn't see a lot of it. There were some things that DAII did better than Origins. These positives are fairly few in my opinion, but I can see improvements. They said that they were taking risks. I agree that they took risks. I don't agree with all of their risks. That's simply what it is.

My review? Dragon Age II had a decent story, but the execution fell far below my expectations of what I believe that BioWare is capable of. I played it. I had a decent time. I'm trying to find something else to move on to. Replayability is lacking. In truth, this is the game (coupled with developer perceptions/reactions of/to the feedback) that is going to give me pause the next time I think about buying a BioWare game. Unfortunate, but that's how it is for me.

[IntoTheDarkness]

DAO's story was typical, I give you that. But plot is not the only component of a story, and DA2 falls back in every aspect, if not typical.

[scpulley]

I'm pretty sure nobody here wants to hate on Bioware. The negativity is simply a result of their latest product and those who feel it didn't meet expectations.

I feel the same way, really I don't hate Bioware, I'll still buy their games, but what was made clear from this is not even Bioware can get it right all the time. They clearly wanted to take this game a way that they knew was going to lose some fans. It wasn't just something simple like time was short or EA forced a gun to their head. They could have had another 2 years to put into the game and it still would have pissed some people off. What makes me sad is I really doubt I'll buy into the game in the setting of theirs again. Not because the gameplay wasn't fun or enjoyable, because it was, not because I didn't like the characters, again I did, but because of interviews like this given from Mike and others that worked on this game. They basically are saying they don't care what people like that already buy their games, they want to be creative and 'save the RPG' from an invisible foe. They sold the story very very short in DA 2 so they could spend more of their short development time to make the game sellable to people who historically don't like them. That's all well in good, but in my book you don't ****** off the people that have been buying your products just to go after an unknown unless you are damn sure you can achieve that unknown. In this case, actually win over those customers. I still will buy bioware stuff, like i said, and I enjoyed a lot of aspects of the game, but I don't like seeing a company I have supported basically say they don't care what their loyal customer base likes, they want more money even though they already are one of the top developers out there.

[Trogloditius]

The first page of this thread is pure hilarity, thanks guys!

Whoever noted that the devs constantly criticise Origins... spot on. We need an answer to, "Which game do you prefer, Origins or 2?" from them.

Gone are the days when they took pride in what they made, eh? Such are the fickle demands of today's marketing. Of course, I feel sorry for devs like Laidlaw, because he HAS to defend and justify the changes made in 2, and the only way he can do that is by saying that EA market research told them to OR they decided to be bi-winning and "fix" Origins. Thus, we have interviews like this.

Would be better for all concerned if the fixing never took place IMO.

Without having read any of the other responces, did you by chance ever look at the DA-O forums shortly after the game came out? I'll give you a hint....it looked just like THIS forum. Full of people talking about how much the game sucked, how Bioware dropped the ball, failed in expectations, etc. Further, if you've even read THIS forum, you would see there are people who think 2 is better then Origens.

Er, no. I've been on Bioware forums for over 5 years now, and they have never been as negative or despondent as they are now. And the responsibility for that lies entirely with the devs.

[Sithlord715]

Wow....are you serious? Mr. Laidlaw is such a coward that he sticks his head in the sand and pretends like everything is alright? I mean, don't get me wrong, I hate the guy, but at least have the cajones to admit that you messed up this time.

Honestly, he needs to leave Bioware IMMEDIATLEY and go work for the Legion of Doo...uhm, I meant Activision

[Firky]

^ If that kind of post, and many others, continues to be the trend in the discourse on gaming, then I'm more sad for gaming's future than through any perceived dumbing down of a game or genre. Just sayin'.

[koshiee]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

DAO's story was typical, I give you that. But plot is not the only component of a story, and DA2 falls back in every aspect, if not typical.

It also had zero pc character development after the first act (origins story) and all the significant plot points save for the landsmeet ended as texts in an epilogue.  Add to that the main plot was essentially static for a huge chunk of the game and then rushed to an end and you get a poorly told and generic story. 

I'm sorry but people can hate on DA2 all they want but it had a better and better told story than DAO. If you wanted to play an epic hero who fights an epic evil then that's fine to be disappointed in DA2 but don't confuse your personal preference in story for quality. 

Modifié par koshiee, 24 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Sithlord715 wrote...

Wow....are you serious? Mr. Laidlaw is such a coward that he sticks his head in the sand and pretends like everything is alright? I mean, don't get me wrong, I hate the guy, but at least have the cajones to admit that you messed up this time.

Honestly, he needs to leave Bioware IMMEDIATLEY and go work for the Legion of Doo...uhm, I meant Activision

People know that Laidlaw was the LD for Origins, right? He isn't a new hire. Knowles left to work on writing, and Ohlen was put on TOR.