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[tsolless]

The Lead Designer for DA:O quit very soon after the release of DA:O and the beginning of the development cycle for DA2, he cited issues with current management and the direction of the new game.

It was an enormous gaming news article, how would anyone miss it?

MIke Laidlaw is absolutely not the LD for DA:O.

Modifié par tsolless, 24 mars 2011 - 07:05 .

[AwesomeNicki]

I guess that means Bioware is Biowinning.

we're biowinning...oo000ooh

lvl designers are bangin seven gram rocks
that's how we roll
that's how we roo00ll

we're just winning...winning!

oh shut up trolls shup up
we have one speed, one gear
go-o0o-oo-o0o

Modifié par AwesomeNicki, 24 mars 2011 - 07:06 .

[Pauravi]

DungeonLord wrote...

There are a lot of people who are disappointed. They won't go away just because Bioware has managed to shift their focus to another cash group who may value flashiness above depth.
...
Of course the same goes for those who love the new dumbed down game play.

I wish people would quit using that "dumbed down" bullsh*t.
Not only is it completely a matter of opinion, it is a description that essentially seeks to denegrate anyone who doesn't share your preference.

There is legitimate discussion to be had over whether the new system is actually simpler, or whether simplifcation vs. complexity necessarily means less or more depth, or whether complex game mechanics actually add anything to the gaming experience.  Whether anyone's mind will ever be changed, or whether people are too entrenched to allow themselves a new thought is not the point -- a meaningful discussion can be had.

But that conversation will never happen in earnest, because you start off the conversation with a purile insult; a concieted, up-turned nose in the air that states from the outset that people who disagree with you are starting from an inferior position, and that your preferences represent "deeper" gameplay, while their opinions are those of simpletons and children who only want to mash buttons and watch on-screen explosions.  In the process you ruin any meaningful discussion that might be had.  Screw that.

This is exactly why I never spend time on these forums anymore, and exactly why the majority that people of your ilk think you have is a farce -- you've simply driven off the reasonable people who enjoyed everything from BG1 through DAO and who are happily playing through DA2 for the second time.  Who wants to come and try and have a reasonable discussion about a game with a bunch of people who are smugly set in their prejudices and who insist that this makes them smarter than you?  Screw that.

[Thalorin1919]

Hope he's still the lead designer for DA3.

I like his statements, about how RPG's need to move foward and evolve, and not stay the same.

I loved Origins, but I also loved DA2. I don't want to see DA3 regress back to the combat of Origins and such because of hardcore RPG players who can't let go of the old days. Games like this are good for the whole entire genre.

And you will all love it, soon enough.

[Sithlord715]

Pauravi wrote...

DungeonLord wrote...

There are a lot of people who are disappointed. They won't go away just because Bioware has managed to shift their focus to another cash group who may value flashiness above depth.
...
Of course the same goes for those who love the new dumbed down game play.

I wish people would quit using that "dumbed down" bullsh*t.
Not only is it completely a matter of opinion, it is a description that essentially seeks to denegrate anyone who doesn't share your preference.

There is legitimate discussion to be had over whether the new system is actually simpler, or whether simplifcation vs. complexity necessarily means less or more depth, or whether complex game mechanics actually add anything to the gaming experience.  Whether anyone's mind will ever be changed, or whether people are too entrenched to allow themselves a new thought is not the point -- a meaningful discussion can be had.

But that conversation will never happen in earnest, because you start off the conversation with a purile insult; a concieted, up-turned nose in the air that states from the outset that people who disagree with you are starting from an inferior position, and that your preferences represent "deeper" gameplay, while their opinions are those of simpletons and children who only want to mash buttons and watch on-screen explosions.  In the process you ruin any meaningful discussion that might be had.  Screw that.

This is exactly why I never spend time on these forums anymore, and exactly why the majority that people of your ilk think you have is a farce -- you've simply driven off the reasonable people who enjoyed everything from BG1 through DAO and who are happily playing through DA2 for the second time.  Who wants to come and try and have a reasonable discussion about a game with a bunch of people who are smugly set in their prejudices and who insist that this makes them smarter than you?  Screw that.

1. Dumbing Down - The act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it
appeal to a broader mass market. This often damages or destroys the
very elements that gave the product any appeal in the first place.

Source: http://www.urbandict...rm=dumbing down

Please, stop denying that this game isn't dumbed down compared to it's predecessor. It's like saying that Mortal Kombat Annihilation was better than the original, or that The Matrix Revolutions is better than the first

[IntoTheDarkness]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Hope he's still the lead designer for DA3.

I like his statements, about how RPG's need to move foward and evolve, and not stay the same.

I loved Origins, but I also loved DA2. I don't want to see DA3 regress back to the combat of Origins and such because of hardcore RPG players who can't let go of the old days. Games like this are good for the whole entire genre.

And you will all love it, soon enough.

WHY SO MANY people think inheriting Origin's combat will result in LITERALLY playing the exact same combat?

No, when we speak of Origin's combat in possitive way, we don't mean copy-implamenting it to DA2. We mean combats with depth, tactical, slower-paced yet less occasional, which is DIFFERENT from Origin's but followed the same core IDEAS.

Please stop taking every freaking words literally!

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 24 mars 2011 - 07:27 .

[Pauravi]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

DAO's story was typical, I give you that. But plot is not the only component of a story, and DA2 falls back in every aspect, if not typical.

Uh, in what way?

[Thalorin1919]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Hope he's still the lead designer for DA3.

I like his statements, about how RPG's need to move foward and evolve, and not stay the same.

I loved Origins, but I also loved DA2. I don't want to see DA3 regress back to the combat of Origins and such because of hardcore RPG players who can't let go of the old days. Games like this are good for the whole entire genre.

And you will all love it, soon enough.

WHY SO MANY people think inheriting Origin's combat will result in LITERALLY playing the exact same combat?

No, when we speak of Origin's combat in possitive way, we don't mean copy-implamenting it to DA2. We mean combats with depth, tactical, slower-paced yet less occasional, which is DIFFERENT from Origin's but followed the same core IDEAS.

Please stop taking every freaking words literally!

We? Do you represent a committee on this matter or something?

And...that kind of sounds like the Origins combat, to me. And I don't know what's not tactical or 'depth' enough about the combat for DA2. Not everyone likes the slow combat - oh wait, pretty much nobody likes the slow combat, except for the select group here on the forum.

The combat is faster, and it gets to the point. Either you don't like the DA2 combat cause it's to hard for you and moves to fast for you, and you want to go back to Origins cause it's slower and easier.

[Sithlord715]

Pauravi wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

DAO's story was typical, I give you that. But plot is not the only component of a story, and DA2 falls back in every aspect, if not typical.

Uh, in what way?

The fact that the plot becomes intriguing only at the last 2 hours of the game and then just abruptly ends? 

[IntoTheDarkness]

Pauravi wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

DAO's story was typical, I give you that. But plot is not the only component of a story, and DA2 falls back in every aspect, if not typical.

Uh, in what way?

A hero with a dark familiy story defeating the ancient evil isn't typical enough for you? 

However, DAO exceeds its sequal in story with superior character, lore, world, interaction, choices, dialogues, and mood. DA2 might be less typical for its plot, but it fails to beat DAO from every other aspect of storytelling.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 24 mars 2011 - 07:37 .

[Bryy_Miller]

tsolless wrote...
MIke Laidlaw is absolutely not the LD for DA:O.

Except that he was. Knowles, Laidlaw, and Ohlen were all the LDs for Origins. 

http://www.allgame.c...610&tab=credits

As for as Knowles quitting, nowhere does he throw the hissy-fit that the internet is making that blog entry out to be. All he said was that he thought DA2 was not the type of game he wanted to make. Which apparently makes him God. Nobody quotes the blog entry where he congratulates the DA2 team for completing the game.

[TJSolo]

The combat is faster, and it gets to the point. Either you don't like the DA2 combat cause it's to hard for you and moves to fast for you, and you want to go back to Origins cause it's slower and easier.

DA2 combat is easier and has been admitted to being made easier than DAO. Combat speeds in DAO were level, for every swing the player did the AI was able to swing. In DA2 the player combat is sped up past that of the AI in order to be able to justify the Thermopylae:few against many battles.

[Pauravi]

Sithlord715 wrote...

1. Dumbing Down - The act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it
appeal to a broader mass market. This often damages or destroys the
very elements that gave the product any appeal in the first place.

Source: http://www.urbandict...rm=dumbing down

Please, stop denying that this game isn't dumbed down compared to it's predecessor.

LMAO.  You quote Urban Dictionary like it is some kind of official source.
Besides, what is the point of providing a definition?  Everyone knows what it means, I was pointing out that the phrase "dumbed down" is an implicit insult to the intelligence of people who prefer what you're calling "dumbed down".  That is still the truth.

Look, your whole argument is "It is dumbed down.  You can't deny it".
WHY?  Tell me WHY I can't deny it?  What is it that is less complex?  If it is less complex, how does that make the game any dumber, or less "deep" (whatever that means), and why does removing complexities make the game less good?  How do you quantify complexity, and what about it is desirable?

What I am trying to say is that there is a discussion to be had here.
Unfortunately it will never be had because of concieted people like you.  You simultaneously insult people's intelligence by calling their preferences dumb or simple, while being completely unable to articulate why you think so.

Your response to me is a perfect escapsulation of the sort of useless, unhelpful, inarticulate, insulting rhetoric that I was denegrating in the post you responded to.  Good job making an example of yourself and of contributing absolutely nothing useful to the discussion.  You're the reason this forum is unreadable.

[Buffy-Summers]

I cant wait till Bioware finally gets to the bargaining stage

I would really like a patch

[MDarwin]

TJSolo wrote...

The combat is faster, and it gets to the point. Either you don't like the DA2 combat cause it's to hard for you and moves to fast for you, and you want to go back to Origins cause it's slower and easier.

DA2 combat is easier and has been admitted to being made easier than DAO. Combat speeds in DAO were level, for every swing the player did the AI was able to swing. In DA2 the player combat is sped up past that of the AI in order to be able to justify the Thermopylae:few against many battles.

Yeah, looks kind a funny when I swing my 2H way faster than the AI can his Longsword. 

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Pauravi wrote...

Sithlord715 wrote...

1. Dumbing Down - The act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it
appeal to a broader mass market. This often damages or destroys the
very elements that gave the product any appeal in the first place.

Source: http://www.urbandict...rm=dumbing down

Please, stop denying that this game isn't dumbed down compared to it's predecessor.

LMAO.  You quote Urban Dictionary like it is some kind of official source.
Besides, what is the point of providing a definition?  Everyone knows what it means, I was pointing out that the phrase "dumbed down" is an implicit insult to the intelligence of people who prefer what you're calling "dumbed down".  That is still the truth.

Look, your whole argument is "It is dumbed down.  You can't deny it".
WHY?  Tell me WHY I can't deny it?  What is it that is less complex?  If it is less complex, how does that make the game any dumber, or less "deep" (whatever that means), and why does removing complexities make the game less good?  How do you quantify complexity, and what about it is desirable?

What I am trying to say is that there is a discussion to be had here.
Unfortunately it will never be had because of concieted people like you.  You simultaneously insult people's intelligence by calling their preferences dumb or simple, while being completely unable to articulate why you think so.

Your response to me is a perfect escapsulation of the sort of useless, unhelpful, inarticulate, insulting rhetoric that I was denegrating in the post you responded to.  Good job making an example of yourself and of contributing absolutely nothing useful to the discussion.  You're the reason this forum is unreadable.

the term is derogatory by association. agreeing to 'dumbing down' implies you are stupid by association or like oversimplified things. and LOL at him using urbandictionary as a reliable source.

here is another definition ( wiktionary ):

(idiomatic, intransitive) To become simpler in expression or content; to become unacceptably simplistic.Television has really dumbed down over the past ten years.

[Thalorin1919]

Sithlord715 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

DungeonLord wrote...

There are a lot of people who are disappointed. They won't go away just because Bioware has managed to shift their focus to another cash group who may value flashiness above depth.
...
Of course the same goes for those who love the new dumbed down game play.

I wish people would quit using that "dumbed down" bullsh*t.
Not only is it completely a matter of opinion, it is a description that essentially seeks to denegrate anyone who doesn't share your preference.

There is legitimate discussion to be had over whether the new system is actually simpler, or whether simplifcation vs. complexity necessarily means less or more depth, or whether complex game mechanics actually add anything to the gaming experience.  Whether anyone's mind will ever be changed, or whether people are too entrenched to allow themselves a new thought is not the point -- a meaningful discussion can be had.

But that conversation will never happen in earnest, because you start off the conversation with a purile insult; a concieted, up-turned nose in the air that states from the outset that people who disagree with you are starting from an inferior position, and that your preferences represent "deeper" gameplay, while their opinions are those of simpletons and children who only want to mash buttons and watch on-screen explosions.  In the process you ruin any meaningful discussion that might be had.  Screw that.

This is exactly why I never spend time on these forums anymore, and exactly why the majority that people of your ilk think you have is a farce -- you've simply driven off the reasonable people who enjoyed everything from BG1 through DAO and who are happily playing through DA2 for the second time.  Who wants to come and try and have a reasonable discussion about a game with a bunch of people who are smugly set in their prejudices and who insist that this makes them smarter than you?  Screw that.

1. Dumbing Down - The act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it
appeal to a broader mass market. This often damages or destroys the
very elements that gave the product any appeal in the first place.

Source: http://www.urbandict...rm=dumbing down

Please, stop denying that this game isn't dumbed down compared to it's predecessor. It's like saying that Mortal Kombat Annihilation was better than the original, or that The Matrix Revolutions is better than the first

You're a fail. Way to quote the Urban Dictionary, pal.

You may not like the game, but it's not 'dumbed down'. Or at least, you don't have the intellect to combat such an argument, as you just quoted the Urban Dictionary.

[Pauravi]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

A hero with a dark familiy story defeating the ancient evil isn't typical enough for you? 

I wasn't trying to comment on the typicality of the story.  While I appreciate originality, I don't demand it -- a prototypical story well-told can be entertaining as well.  Honestly, nearly any story can be made to sound typical if it is summarized with enough cynical simplification.

However, DAO exceeds its sequal in story with superior character, lore, world, interaction, choices, dialogues, and mood. DA2 might be less typical for its plot, but it fails to beat DAO from every other aspect of storytelling.

I disagree with most of those assessments.  You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but this is certainly nothing like factual statements.

I found the DA2 characters to be much more multi-dimensional, much more like separate, whole people whose relationships with me (and with each other) could evolve over time.  It was much more clear in DA2 that they interacted with each other even when I wasn't around.  They had their own ideas and motivations that they would pursue, with or without my help, and occasionally in direct opposition to my wishes.

I don't know what you mean by saying that the "choices" were better, but I think that the choices I was forced to make (sometimes by those pesky individualistic companions) were much more meaningful on an emotional level than they were in Origins, and were sometimes very difficult to make.  I encountered relatively few decisions in Origins that I had to ponder at all, even if the effect on the state of the world at the end was larger.

The lore and world is exactly the same -- it simply takes place in a smaller area that isn't in Ferelden, but the Codex is there in full glory, and the relationships between the major players established in Origins are still there.

As far as mood goes -- it is simply different.  Less dark (the blight is over, after all), and more about tension and build-up, which I think the game communicates rather effectively.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 24 mars 2011 - 08:02 .

[tsolless]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

You're a fail. Way to quote the Urban Dictionary, pal.

You may not like the game, but it's not 'dumbed down'. Or at least, you don't have the intellect to combat such an argument, as you just quoted the Urban Dictionary.

Yes, someone's entire point is invalidated because of one specific, irrelevant to issue, issue that you have a problem with him.

[Vena_86]

I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"

Guess what, these people are NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF THE FRANCHISE!

How do you go from making the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate 2 for adults with like 7 years development time to making a half-assed, rushed, comic super hero hack&slay with a year and a half of dev time and call it a sequel.

Not everyone liked the first Terminator movie but that didn't make Cameron turn Terminator 2 into a detective drama.

[TJSolo]

If Cameron had to answer to EA he would have. I

[Warheadz]

Vena_86 wrote...

I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"

Guess what, these people are NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF THE FRANCHISE!

How do you go from making the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate 2 for adults with like 7 years development time to making a half-assed, rushed, comic super hero hack&slay with a year and a half of dev time and call it a sequel.

 Well, now they are the target audience. Forget about the "Spiritual successor to BG2", I thought it was quite obvious by now to everyone that Bioware want's its share of the mainstream/casual market. And that's why people like you or me gotta go and make room for them.

Yeah, life sucks.

[Bryy_Miller]

Vena_86 wrote...
Guess what, these people are NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF THE FRANCHISE!

How do you go from making the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate 2 for adults

I'd be careful about labeling video games or any form of entertainment for any one group of people. That slippery slope leads to saying things like "only stupid people play X".

[TJSolo]

Warheadz wrote...

Vena_86 wrote...

I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"

Guess what, these people are NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF THE FRANCHISE!

How do you go from making the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate 2 for adults with like 7 years development time to making a half-assed, rushed, comic super hero hack&slay with a year and a half of dev time and call it a sequel.

 Well, now they are the target audience. Forget about the "Spiritual successor to BG2", I thought it was quite obvious by now to everyone that Bioware want's its share of the mainstream/casual market. And that's why people like you or me gotta go and make room for them.

Yeah, life sucks.

I don't think the target 10million other gamers are coming...they are kind of occupied playing the games that don't need retrofitting to meet their needs.