476 réponses à ce sujet

[Warheadz]

TJSolo wrote...
I don't think the target 10million other gamers are coming...they are kind of occupied playing the games that don't need retrofitting to meet their needs.

A-ha! But that's the funny part. Do you have 100% trust that Bioware/EA gets that and won't try to capture that audience with even more flashiness in the future? Are you really that confident that they will learn their lesson?

[Lotion Soronarr]

DA2 is dumbed down.
If you do not like that term, then we can use another...feel free to come up with something.

Story-wise, DA2 is O.K. The rags-to-riches is in no way inferior to Origins or BG story in it's conception. I never mined cliche storylines, if they were pulled off nicely. I only wish DA2 story was puleld of better..unnecessary plot holes and faliure to truly take advantage of the framed narrative and time passage mar the overall experience.
DA2 comapanions are nicely done, atlough it did bother me that I couldn't talk to them. And the "press heart to win undying love" thing was horrible.

Mechanics...those is the sore point. Yes, the combat has been "dumed down". Yes, it is too fast and too redicolous, and people on these forums have explained exactly way before.
There is absolutely nothing better about the combat..NOTHING. It's more chaotic, less tactical and easier.

And it's perfectly fine for people to prefer it that way. I like playing Serious Sam myself..but I'd never call it a brilliant tactical masterpiece or as having "deep combat".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Vena_86 wrote...
Guess what, these people are NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF THE FRANCHISE!

How do you go from making the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate 2 for adults

I'd be careful about labeling video games or any form of entertainment for any one group of people. That slippery slope leads to saying things like "only stupid people play X".

Sadly, that is sometimes true.

I am 10000000% confident that only stupid people watch realtiy shows...for example. Welll, either the are stupid or they have 0 taste ..take your pick.

[abaris]

Warheadz wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
I don't think the target 10million other gamers are coming...they are kind of occupied playing the games that don't need retrofitting to meet their needs.

A-ha! But that's the funny part. Do you have 100% trust that Bioware/EA gets that and won't try to capture that audience with even more flashiness in the future? Are you really that confident that they will learn their lesson?

Only, I repeat ONLY, if money does some serious talking.

If DAII doesn't reach the numbers of its supposed predecessor, the suits might sit down and listen. The problem with todays market is, that its only based on shareholder values. The devs might have had something entirely different in mind, but there's the brass, only looking at their revenues.

That won't change. And so, following that logic, everybody wanting to go back to a more RPG like experience has to hope, DAII sells really bad. That however, includes the danger of there not being a DAIII at all.

[Icinix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DA2 is dumbed down.
If you do not like that term, then we can use another...feel free to come up with something.

..Decomplicated Complicates?

..Flashy Flashy Splosion Boom Boom?

or my favourite...

..Relaxed Gameplay Mechanics.

In regards to the rest of your post...The combat is the only area I believe is an improvement over previous games.  Not saying it's perfect ( yes too fast and way too much gore and no finishing moves BOOOO), but I found myself using more tactics and group work than I did in Origins.  Everything comes down to personal opinion, but I have honestly always found the combat in all BioWare RPG's to be pretty bland (e.g KOTOR was Spam Flurry and Force Wave)...but in DA2...I'd find myself pausing and swapping between characters and changing things on the fly. Mage hitting an AOE then swapping back to my rogue and BackFlipping out of there before it hit, rushing the stragglers..pausing and re-assessing...getting Aveline to draw fire etc etc...I found myself far more involved in the overall battle and what was happening than I did in DAO, where I rarely took control of party members.

For the first in the history of BioWare RPG's...I actually WANTED to do the combat pieces..so no..it wasn't perfect (Para Dropping Templars *cough*)..but personally a fantastic step up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icinix wrote...
In regards to the rest of your post...The combat is the only area I believe is an improvement over previous games.  Not saying it's perfect ( yes too fast and way too much gore and no finishing moves BOOOO), but I found myself using more tactics and group work than I did in Origins.  Everything comes down to personal opinion, but I have honestly always found the combat in all BioWare RPG's to be pretty bland (e.g KOTOR was Spam Flurry and Force Wave)...but in DA2...I'd find myself pausing and swapping between characters and changing things on the fly. Mage hitting an AOE then swapping back to my rogue and BackFlipping out of there before it hit, rushing the stragglers..pausing and re-assessing...getting Aveline to draw fire etc etc...I found myself far more involved in the overall battle and what was happening than I did in DAO, where I rarely took control of party members.

For the first in the history of BioWare RPG's...I actually WANTED to do the combat pieces..so no..it wasn't perfect (Para Dropping Templars *cough*)..but personally a fantastic step up.

Bah. I can't see how that is possible.
I did pause more in DA2, but that doesn't mean it require more use of tactics. It requires more use of the pause (on higher difficulty setting that is) because it's fast paced...and because aiming some of the spells is damn impossible on-the-fly. Same orders  I could isse in DA:O wihout pausing, I have to pause in DA2.

Tactics? What tactics.
Not that DA:O is a perfect gem. Heck, I was never too fond of the undelying mechanics of that one...could have been made much better. But DA2 is far worse.

[Wivvix]

The re-use of the levels is something we knew was a bit of a risk, but we wanted to make sure there was more content rather than less, so re-using some of the spaces and coming to them again was certainly one we were careful not careful about and tried to re-use as artfully as we could.

Tried and failed Mike, utterly.

When I see reviews that comment on the way the story is told or interactions with the followers, those are very, very positive, and I'm extremely gratified.

Except that there weren't nearly enough. What about the reviews with comments that aren't very positive? Then what? Turn a blind eye?

Eurogamer: I've seen scores as low as a 6/10 - what do you think when you read those?

Mike Laidlaw: Well it's hard to know exactly what's going on with scores that are really, really negative.

Try reading the reviews Mike? Try a little cognitive processing?

One possible culprit could just be a change backlash, i.e "Wow, this is just too different and I cannot handle it."

Clutching at straws. DA2 didn't deliver AAA RPG standards and you know it. The story was sub-par, the framed narrative was used far too little to be a centrepiece or deserve hype as much as it was, and the level design and complete and utter lack of real exploration in the game, is why the game got scores like 6/10.

There's this strange perception that because the combat is faster - characters leaping into place or charging forward - it's an inherently console thing.

Probably because you adopted that style which was hallmarked in console games like God of War. It is associated with certain console games and rightly so. They're the platform it originated on.

We designed that because we thought that the ability to whirl around and snap off a fireball at a guy who's charging you, rather than shuffling in and launching it usually a couple of feet behind him, created a much stronger sense of responsiveness.

Which still happens in DA2 anyway. Argument is moot.

Mike Laidlaw: Dragon Age II was designed by just the senior, core team. Honestly I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far and wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made that would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that.

Well that's evidence enough there for me. Laidlaw and the senior team ARE the problem. They're obviously intent on making games for their kids, not for adults.
Straight out of Laidlaw's mouth. "We wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that".
Seriously? How absolutely mind-boggling retarded do you think people are, Laidlaw? The enchanting system in DA2 is so SIMPLE a 10 year old could work it out without a tutorial.

Modifié par Wivvix, 24 mars 2011 - 09:46 .

[Grestorn]

Pauravi wrote...
I wish people would quit using that "dumbed down" bullsh*t.
Not only is it completely a matter of opinion, it is a description that essentially seeks to denegrate anyone who doesn't share your preference.

There is legitimate discussion to be had over whether the new system is actually simpler, or whether simplifcation vs. complexity necessarily means less or more depth, or whether complex game mechanics actually add anything to the gaming experience.  Whether anyone's mind will ever be changed, or whether people are too entrenched to allow themselves a new thought is not the point -- a meaningful discussion can be had.

But that conversation will never happen in earnest, because you start off the conversation with a purile insult; a concieted, up-turned nose in the air that states from the outset that people who disagree with you are starting from an inferior position, and that your preferences represent "deeper" gameplay, while their opinions are those of simpletons and children who only want to mash buttons and watch on-screen explosions.  In the process you ruin any meaningful discussion that might be had.  Screw that.

This is exactly why I never spend time on these forums anymore, and exactly why the majority that people of your ilk think you have is a farce -- you've simply driven off the reasonable people who enjoyed everything from BG1 through DAO and who are happily playing through DA2 for the second time.  Who wants to come and try and have a reasonable discussion about a game with a bunch of people who are smugly set in their prejudices and who insist that this makes them smarter than you?  Screw that.

Ah... thank you. What a welcome read. My thoughts in this thread exactly.

I can only assume and hope that the average age of the most vocal haters is quite low, otherwise I'd be really concerned about those people.

Not that you can't criticise the shortcommings of this or any other game, but this attitude that only their view can be the right one, the absolutism that only because they don't like it, it has to be utter **** for everyone, combined with very open insults to anyone not sharing their view is really bothersome.

You would think that people learn that they're not the center of the universe by the age of 20. But maybe some take longer or never learn it.

Modifié par Grestorn, 24 mars 2011 - 10:00 .

[EccentricSage]

Charging forward in battle, hitting the ground with your sword, going into combat unarmored, flipping for no apparent reason... these are not improvements, they are just very flashy animations that don't make any actual logical sense. Origins wasn't perfect, but I appreciated the ability to be tactical, to have properly armored companions, to have the option of ranged with all classes, and the fact that most of the combat animations were at least somewhat realistic. There were huge flaws with Two handed being too slow and clonky to be very useful, and it was unpleasant to look at, but seeing two handed warriors and mages swinging these big metal weapons around as though they are as light as a foam bat is just ridiculous.

If this is what console gamers want, then implement it on the console version only, and implement a tweaked version of Origins combat for PC. Problem solved.

Mike Laidlaw: Dragon Age II was designed by just the senior, core team.
Honestly I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far
and wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made
that would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that.

I also find this insulting.  People are offended that some oldschool RPG fans use the term 'dumbing down', but what exactly is Laidow saying he thinks of the 'larger market'?  That they are too stupid to do anything more than button mash and auto-level.  WTF.  I think Laidow really is the problem with DA, the more he runs at the mouth.

At the end of the day, this is a mature rated franchise, not a game for kids.  It would be nice if Laidow would design the games adults want, not underdeveloped adolescents.  Stop insulting people's intelligence, Laidow.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 24 mars 2011 - 10:10 .

[Nightnight]

Enchantment? Enchantment? Enchantment?

[Firky]

@Pauravi - Great post. I'd be very glad to get rid of the term "dumbing down" too. It just demeans everyone.

I'm a very old school RPG fan, who (mostly) breezed through Origins, and especially Awakening, on nightmare. DAII nightmare is kicking my ass. I'm starting to feel really "dumb," in fact, the more I read about people saying it's hack and slash or less tactical. Your party has to work really well together. You have to build using stats other than magic/willpower for mage, for example. You have to react to the reinforcements and generally play well, with less cheesy exploits. You have to position well to avoid being knocked out of your actions and move when required.

This probably isn't the thread for chatting about combat - except to say that I'm in awe of how these guys have overhauled combat so that the action elements add to the experience rather than transform it away from the tactical. And if people prefer, just pick a dual wielding rogue and play on casual for kicks. I'm totally cool with the game being more accessible in that kind of a way, because the harder difficulties remain a real challenge, or are more so.

I suspect posting in this thread is entirely pointless, but I'm annoyed by the fact that people are speaking on behalf of all old school RPG fans (and, yes, the term "dumbing down" just isn't good for anyone.)

PS. And also. I find the idea that gaming should be an exclusive club that only the "intelligent" or whatever can join to be ridiculous. I'd applaud any developer who tried to welcome new gamers.

Modifié par Firky, 24 mars 2011 - 10:56 .

[Monica83]

this guy must be blind on something... does mike read the same comment i read in internet?

Storm of cakes incoming

[dheer]

Bryy_Miller wrote...
People know that Laidlaw was the LD for Origins, right? He isn't a new hire. Knowles left to work on writing, and Ohlen was put on TOR.

From what I remember, only for the console versions of DA:O. The PC version was already finished and ready to go at that point.

[StartOrange]

Pauravi & Firky, either one for president.

This particular part of the forum is so god damn awful these days that people who like the game and doesn't want to behave like 10 year old whining brats can't stand it. Which basically makes it a nest for haters, who's whining only go around in circles and provide an endless source of complaints among themselves.

I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the characters. And my friends who played the game enjoyed it too. I applaud Bioware for branching out and trying something new and I hope they continue doing just that.

[Nozybidaj]

Man, this forum is pure gold.  Even the devs get in on the act of trolling each other.  Fans troll the devs.  Devs troll the fans.  I dunno what I would do at work without you all.

[MrWakka]

 Lets be fair here, all this Charlie Sheen bashing is going to far. It's not his fault Mike hooked him up to a 360 controller and starting pushing buttons to make him do awesome stuff. (Left Bumper to say "Winning!")

dheer wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...
People know that Laidlaw was the LD for Origins, right? He isn't a new hire. Knowles left to work on writing, and Ohlen was put on TOR.

From what I remember, only for the console versions of DA:O. The PC version was already finished and ready to go at that point.

Knowles was the lead on the PC version, it was then handed to Laidlaw for the console ports.

Modifié par Mrwakka, 24 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[arathor_87]

Didn't David Gaider post in a thread that some of us live in denial about the changes in DA2?

And I wonder, how lives in denial now? Laidlaw and Gaider? ; )

[DanaScu]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Hope he's still the lead designer for DA3.

I like his statements, about how RPG's need to move foward and evolve, and not stay the same.

I loved Origins, but I also loved DA2. I don't want to see DA3 regress back to the combat of Origins and such because of hardcore RPG players who can't let go of the old days. Games like this are good for the whole entire genre.

And you will all love it, soon enough.

No, I don't think I ever will "love it". Not for games that it doesn't fit.

Combat needed to be tweaked. It didn't need to be mutated into a kung fu extreme action stunt extravaganza.

If you "move forward" and "evolve" a rpg into a completely different thing, it isn't an rpg anymore. If someone likes what it evolved into, good for them. It isn't, however, good for the whole entire genre. It might be good to catch the attention of people who want the flashy action push-a-button-and-something-AWESOME-happens crowd, but how many of those people are willing to deal with the non-flashy-story-and-character-development parts? Even with the "rise to power" over ten years chunks of the "story" are skipped. Mechanics of the game are removed so players won't get "bored". Have you noticed there are people asking about story dlc already? [as opposed to the dlc bribes shoveled out to hook people into the hype for the game]

I didn't buy the game. I played the game at my brother's house. If it were a Jade Empire type of game, I wouldn't have as many issues with it as I do. I enjoyed Jade Empire. And when I finished JE, I went back to playing Hordes and player made modules for it. Because I do not want a locked in, set character, type of game exclusively. That seems to be where they are heading; now the pc has a voice, the wheel o'hints, and set companions...

I bought MEpc, and enjoyed it for what it is. I didn't really like what they turned ME2 into. I'm waiting for a large amount of information about ME3 before I'll consider buying it. *Any* DA game is going to be out, with reviews, before I consider it.

If EABioware isn't making the games I want, then I won't be buying EABioware games. There are other games, from other developers. Other developers who seem to be able to improve, without completely "evolving" a game into a different genre.

[Ahicz]

I like how the lead designer feels he needs to publicly defend the crap he's responsible for.

If nothing else this should be a HUGE warning sign to customers

[Mantaal]

StartOrange wrote...

want to behave like 10 year old brats
I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the characters. And my friends who played the game enjoyed it too. I applaud Bioware for branching out and trying something new and I hope they continue doing just that.

Yeah you have to be 10 years old to like that kind of "Combat" "Story" and the Game at all.

Im 33 and when i see Exploding Humans i hit with a Dagger i can only knock my Head on the Table..
Much better are Cloth shirt wearing Fighters with big boobs and no Pants fighting a Army...
What Mature peoples would ever like something like that? Ive got over stuff like that when i reached the Age of 14.

[michaelius_pl]

StartOrange wrote...

Pauravi & Firky, either one for president.

This particular part of the forum is so god damn awful these days that people who like the game and doesn't want to behave like 10 year old whining brats can't stand it. Which basically makes it a nest for haters, who's whining only go around in circles and provide an endless source of complaints among themselves.

I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the characters. And my friends who played the game enjoyed it too. I applaud Bioware for branching out and trying something new and I hope they continue doing just that.

Don't worry that's why Bioware opened forum for people with registered DA2 cdkey so the happy majority of players who enjoy Dragon Awesome Effect 2 can discuss their opinions without the  risk of being contaminated by thoughtcrime of those evil people who consider DA2 the biggest dumbing down in RPG genre since Oblivion.

[fn_outlaw]

Ugh, I'm a registered owner and I can't even play the game anymore...

I've played it twice (just to try out the differences in classes) and the streamlining is so apparent its really pathetic. I can play a warrior or even a rogue, but the mage is so out-of-balance that I can't get through act I. I won't even get into why playing a mage breaks immersion (IMO)...

As far as the 'ten year olds' whining...I'm sorry, I thought these forums were for positive and negative feedback.

Furthermore, of course my opinion is not going to change. I formed an opinion about a game that I played. Just like you did. That isn't going to change just because someone says 'The reviews are biased, the game is great!'. I don't like DA2, and that's that. These forums exist so I can tell bioware that exact sentiment.

Telling people that they shouldn't be here, or that the forum is awful because they don't share your views...well, that sounds like something a ten year old might do.

[Thalorin1919]

Mantaal wrote...

StartOrange wrote...

want to behave like 10 year old brats
I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the characters. And my friends who played the game enjoyed it too. I applaud Bioware for branching out and trying something new and I hope they continue doing just that.

Yeah you have to be 10 years old to like that kind of "Combat" "Story" and the Game at all.

Im 33 and when i see Exploding Humans i hit with a Dagger i can only knock my Head on the Table..
Much better are Cloth shirt wearing Fighters with big boobs and no Pants fighting a Army...
What Mature peoples would ever like something like that? Ive got over stuff like that when i reached the Age of 14.

Please, don't act like you're superior cause you're 33 years old and just "over all of that."

I'm 17, and I consider myself generally more mature then the rest of my peers, but not more mature then the typical adult.

But don't go sprouting around that kind of thing. If you didn't say you were 33, and by judging your spelling and grammar, I would've guessed you were some 14 year old acting like he was mature and above the rest of the crowd or something.

[TJSolo]

Warheadz wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
I don't think the target 10million other gamers are coming...they are kind of occupied playing the games that don't need retrofitting to meet their needs.

A-ha! But that's the funny part. Do you have 100% trust that Bioware/EA gets that and won't try to capture that audience with even more flashiness in the future? Are you really that confident that they will learn their lesson?

What EA wants is what EA gets. The studios that can not output what EA expects of them gets shut down and EA is off to buy another developer to bring in more game IPs.

[fn_outlaw]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

StartOrange wrote...

want to behave like 10 year old brats
I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the characters. And my friends who played the game enjoyed it too. I applaud Bioware for branching out and trying something new and I hope they continue doing just that.

Yeah you have to be 10 years old to like that kind of "Combat" "Story" and the Game at all.

Im 33 and when i see Exploding Humans i hit with a Dagger i can only knock my Head on the Table..
Much better are Cloth shirt wearing Fighters with big boobs and no Pants fighting a Army...
What Mature peoples would ever like something like that? Ive got over stuff like that when i reached the Age of 14.

Please, don't act like you're superior cause you're 33 years old and just "over all of that."

I'm 17, and I consider myself generally more mature then the rest of my peers, but not more mature then the typical adult.

But don't go sprouting around that kind of thing. If you didn't say you were 33, and by judging your spelling and grammar, I would've guessed you were some 14 year old acting like he was mature and above the rest of the crowd or something.

Troll more.
You can't judge age by grammar.  Many people of different backgrounds come here, so to assume that its their age, instead of say, a language barrier is just troll-icious.  Not to mention the fact that the education system in America is questionable at best.  That's all assuming the poster even cares about grammar.  as he seems to have gotten*oo, bad grammar*his point across...