476 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKnave69]

michaelius_pl wrote...

Don't worry that's why Bioware opened forum for people with registered DA2 cdkey so the happy majority of players who enjoy Dragon Awesome Effect 2 can discuss their opinions without the  risk of being contaminated by thoughtcrime of those evil people who consider DA2 the biggest dumbing down in RPG genre since Oblivion.

I've been to the registered users forum, and there's just as much back and forth there.  The discussions there are just as...vehement.

[Thalorin1919]

fn_outlaw wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

StartOrange wrote...

want to behave like 10 year old brats
I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the characters. And my friends who played the game enjoyed it too. I applaud Bioware for branching out and trying something new and I hope they continue doing just that.

Yeah you have to be 10 years old to like that kind of "Combat" "Story" and the Game at all.

Im 33 and when i see Exploding Humans i hit with a Dagger i can only knock my Head on the Table..
Much better are Cloth shirt wearing Fighters with big boobs and no Pants fighting a Army...
What Mature peoples would ever like something like that? Ive got over stuff like that when i reached the Age of 14.

Please, don't act like you're superior cause you're 33 years old and just "over all of that."

I'm 17, and I consider myself generally more mature then the rest of my peers, but not more mature then the typical adult.

But don't go sprouting around that kind of thing. If you didn't say you were 33, and by judging your spelling and grammar, I would've guessed you were some 14 year old acting like he was mature and above the rest of the crowd or something.

Troll more.
You can't judge age by grammar.  Many people of different backgrounds come here, so to assume that its their age, instead of say, a language barrier is just troll-icious.  Not to mention the fact that the education system in America is questionable at best.  That's all assuming the poster even cares about grammar.  as he seems to have gotten*oo, bad grammar*his point across...

I was actually making some kind of point, and the whole grammar thing was part of it.

I'll judge by how I want. And please, don't say anything about the education system cause god forbid an argument sparks on here because of that.

Point is, he was addressing a younger audience he has know idea about - mainly teenagers, while typing like a 12 year old and not making much sense. What do you want me to say, take the defensive and PM him a the amazone order to a grammar and spelling book?

But hey, you go and save peoples lives by jumping to their defense cause you want to look cool. Because, you, are the troll.

[Merced652]

So laidlaw was the dude in charge of the console port of origins? Ahhhhh.... feels good.

[Merced652]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

fn_outlaw wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

StartOrange wrote...

want to behave like 10 year old brats
I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the characters. And my friends who played the game enjoyed it too. I applaud Bioware for branching out and trying something new and I hope they continue doing just that.

Yeah you have to be 10 years old to like that kind of "Combat" "Story" and the Game at all.

Im 33 and when i see Exploding Humans i hit with a Dagger i can only knock my Head on the Table..
Much better are Cloth shirt wearing Fighters with big boobs and no Pants fighting a Army...
What Mature peoples would ever like something like that? Ive got over stuff like that when i reached the Age of 14.

Please, don't act like you're superior cause you're 33 years old and just "over all of that."

I'm 17, and I consider myself generally more mature then the rest of my peers, but not more mature then the typical adult.

But don't go sprouting around that kind of thing. If you didn't say you were 33, and by judging your spelling and grammar, I would've guessed you were some 14 year old acting like he was mature and above the rest of the crowd or something.

Troll more.
You can't judge age by grammar.  Many people of different backgrounds come here, so to assume that its their age, instead of say, a language barrier is just troll-icious.  Not to mention the fact that the education system in America is questionable at best.  That's all assuming the poster even cares about grammar.  as he seems to have gotten*oo, bad grammar*his point across...

I was actually making some kind of point, and the whole grammar thing was part of it.

I'll judge by how I want. And please, don't say anything about the education system cause god forbid an argument sparks on here because of that.

Point is, he was addressing a younger audience he has know idea about - mainly teenagers, while typing like a 12 year old and not making much sense. What do you want me to say, take the defensive and PM him a the amazone order to a grammar and spelling book?

But hey, you go and save peoples lives by jumping to their defense cause you want to look cool. Because, you, are the troll.

speaking of grammar 

I'll give you troll lessons if you want bro. 

Modifié par Merced652, 24 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[fn_outlaw]

You say he was addressing teenagers, I won't bother with the whole quote pyramid, but his post was about 10 y/o's and the last time I checked, teenagers are at least 13...

I see what you did there, with the calling me a troll thing, it was a good touch.

Oh, but I'm feeding it, aren't I? I acquiesce...

[supertouch]

people who are doggedly defending this half-baked mess of a game would have been happy with a faithful sequel, while the rest of us have the insight to see the problems with it. people should set aside sentimental attachment to bioware and judge the game by its own merits. if they did that, they would realize what a crock of **** this game is. furthermore, a 17-year-old who is unfamiliar with the genre isn't the best spokesperson.

[Baelyn]

Sithlord715 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

DungeonLord wrote...

There are a lot of people who are disappointed. They won't go away just because Bioware has managed to shift their focus to another cash group who may value flashiness above depth.
...
Of course the same goes for those who love the new dumbed down game play.

I wish people would quit using that "dumbed down" bullsh*t.
Not only is it completely a matter of opinion, it is a description that essentially seeks to denegrate anyone who doesn't share your preference.

There is legitimate discussion to be had over whether the new system is actually simpler, or whether simplifcation vs. complexity necessarily means less or more depth, or whether complex game mechanics actually add anything to the gaming experience.  Whether anyone's mind will ever be changed, or whether people are too entrenched to allow themselves a new thought is not the point -- a meaningful discussion can be had.

But that conversation will never happen in earnest, because you start off the conversation with a purile insult; a concieted, up-turned nose in the air that states from the outset that people who disagree with you are starting from an inferior position, and that your preferences represent "deeper" gameplay, while their opinions are those of simpletons and children who only want to mash buttons and watch on-screen explosions.  In the process you ruin any meaningful discussion that might be had.  Screw that.

This is exactly why I never spend time on these forums anymore, and exactly why the majority that people of your ilk think you have is a farce -- you've simply driven off the reasonable people who enjoyed everything from BG1 through DAO and who are happily playing through DA2 for the second time.  Who wants to come and try and have a reasonable discussion about a game with a bunch of people who are smugly set in their prejudices and who insist that this makes them smarter than you?  Screw that.

1. Dumbing Down - The act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it
appeal to a broader mass market. This often damages or destroys the
very elements that gave the product any appeal in the first place.

Source: http://www.urbandict...rm=dumbing down

Please, stop denying that this game isn't dumbed down compared to it's predecessor. It's like saying that Mortal Kombat Annihilation was better than the original, or that The Matrix Revolutions is better than the first

I'm sorry but before I finish reading through these pages I just have to LOL at someone who posts urban dictionary as a "source." You do realize anyone can go on there an say any phrase means anything right?

[MonkeyLungs]

Dumbing down is held by many to be synonymous with 'streamlining'.

Whether you like it or not does not change the reality. The term dumbing down just throws a slightly more negative connotation into the mix for some. Personally, when I hear the term 'streamline' I think 'dumb down'. 'Streamlining' already carries a seriously negative connotation for me.

[Demx]

I wonder if Mike actually reads the forums anymore, or does he have someone do it for him.

[StartOrange]

By "ten year old brats whining" I mean those who reply IN EVERY THREAD about everything they don't like ("dumbed down", bad plot etc.) over and over again, with this ridiculous elitist attitude and can't take any serious discussion without insulting others and/or Bioware. I wouldn't call that feedback. I was about to say now how proper feedback is expressed, but I don't think I need to do that, do I?

Of course, not all who dislike the game is like this but most of them who hangs around here seem to be that way. Maybe if people didn't act like such douchebags Bioware would take them more seriously.

Mantaal wrote...

Yeah you have to be 10 years old to like that kind of "Combat" "Story" and the Game at all.

Im 33 and when i see Exploding Humans i hit with a Dagger i can only knock my Head on the Table..
Much better are Cloth shirt wearing Fighters with big boobs and no Pants fighting a Army...
What Mature peoples would ever like something like that? Ive got over stuff like that when i reached the Age of 14.

You know, there is this funny thing you can do with this game and it's called modding. I for example, have disabled the exploding bodies along with some other tweaks so it suits me better, which took about 5 minutes from searching the web until starting the game.

As for the other remark, I couldn't pinpoint that to an actual situation in-game, dispite playing through it multiple times

[The Angry One]

The ability to read what you want to read is precious, it makes you a happier person overall.

[AkiKishi]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Dumbing down is held by many to be synonymous with 'streamlining'.

Whether you like it or not does not change the reality. The term dumbing down just throws a slightly more negative connotation into the mix for some. Personally, when I hear the term 'streamline' I think 'dumb down'. 'Streamlining' already carries a seriously negative connotation for me.

Take comfort in that it could have been much much worse...

Wivvix wrote...

Mike Laidlaw: Dragon Age II was designed by just the senior, core team. Honestly I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far and wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made that would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview

<highlighting mine>

Anyone who thinks DA2 was not dumbed dowm well look there. The shocking thing is not only was it done with intent, it was not completed to Mikes satisfaction.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 mars 2011 - 05:10 .

[TheMadCat]

Siradix wrote...

I wonder if Mike actually reads the forums anymore, or does he have someone do it for him.

He used to post on the forums pretty regularly for a developer, so yeah he used to at least. No clue about now.

[TJSolo]

Baelyn wrote...

Sithlord715 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

DungeonLord wrote...

There are a lot of people who are disappointed. They won't go away just because Bioware has managed to shift their focus to another cash group who may value flashiness above depth.
...
Of course the same goes for those who love the new dumbed down game play.

I wish people would quit using that "dumbed down" bullsh*t.
Not only is it completely a matter of opinion, it is a description that essentially seeks to denegrate anyone who doesn't share your preference.

There is legitimate discussion to be had over whether the new system is actually simpler, or whether simplifcation vs. complexity necessarily means less or more depth, or whether complex game mechanics actually add anything to the gaming experience.  Whether anyone's mind will ever be changed, or whether people are too entrenched to allow themselves a new thought is not the point -- a meaningful discussion can be had.

But that conversation will never happen in earnest, because you start off the conversation with a purile insult; a concieted, up-turned nose in the air that states from the outset that people who disagree with you are starting from an inferior position, and that your preferences represent "deeper" gameplay, while their opinions are those of simpletons and children who only want to mash buttons and watch on-screen explosions.  In the process you ruin any meaningful discussion that might be had.  Screw that.

This is exactly why I never spend time on these forums anymore, and exactly why the majority that people of your ilk think you have is a farce -- you've simply driven off the reasonable people who enjoyed everything from BG1 through DAO and who are happily playing through DA2 for the second time.  Who wants to come and try and have a reasonable discussion about a game with a bunch of people who are smugly set in their prejudices and who insist that this makes them smarter than you?  Screw that.

1. Dumbing Down - The act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it
appeal to a broader mass market. This often damages or destroys the
very elements that gave the product any appeal in the first place.

Source: http://www.urbandict...rm=dumbing down

Please, stop denying that this game isn't dumbed down compared to it's predecessor. It's like saying that Mortal Kombat Annihilation was better than the original, or that The Matrix Revolutions is better than the first

I'm sorry but before I finish reading through these pages I just have to LOL at someone who posts urban dictionary as a "source." You do realize anyone can go on there an say any phrase means anything right?

Is the definition given accurate or not?

[Baelyn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Dumbing down is held by many to be synonymous with 'streamlining'.

Whether you like it or not does not change the reality. The term dumbing down just throws a slightly more negative connotation into the mix for some. Personally, when I hear the term 'streamline' I think 'dumb down'. 'Streamlining' already carries a seriously negative connotation for me.

Take comfort in that it could have been much much worse...

Wivvix wrote...

Mike Laidlaw: Dragon Age II was designed by just the senior, core team. Honestly I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far and wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made that would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview

<highlighting mine>

Anyone who thinks DA2 was not dumbed dowm well look there. The shocking thing is not only was it done with intent, it was not completed to Mikes satisfaction.

How in the world are you getting that from that quote?

The quote actually proves exactly opposite of that. He says that he doesnt think that the game is been designed to appeal to everyone, AND that if it had been we possibly wouldn't have even seen companions, a much more simplified inventory and no crafting. Which we all know is not the case with DA2.

Sure they wanted to make it more accessible to people not as familiar with RPG concepts, hence his comment about taking it "much, much further," but that hardly proves that the game was "dumbed down" to the point even kiddies can play it to its fullest which is what he was arguing against. It proves that they knew there were issues with DA:O that many people didn't like and wanted to make changes.

[AkiKishi]

Baelyn wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Dumbing down is held by many to be synonymous with 'streamlining'.

Whether you like it or not does not change the reality. The term dumbing down just throws a slightly more negative connotation into the mix for some. Personally, when I hear the term 'streamline' I think 'dumb down'. 'Streamlining' already carries a seriously negative connotation for me.

Take comfort in that it could have been much much worse...

Wivvix wrote...

Mike Laidlaw: Dragon Age II was designed by just the senior, core team. Honestly I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far and wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made that would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview

<highlighting mine>

Anyone who thinks DA2 was not dumbed dowm well look there. The shocking thing is not only was it done with intent, it was not completed to Mikes satisfaction.

How in the world are you getting that from that quote?

The quote actually proves exactly opposite of that. He says that he doesnt think that the game is been designed to appeal to everyone, AND that if it had been we possibly wouldn't have even seen companions, a much more simplified inventory and no crafting. Which we all know is not the case with DA2.

Sure they wanted to make it more accessible to people not as familiar with RPG concepts, hence his comment about taking it "much, much further," but that hardly proves that the game was "dumbed down" to the point even kiddies can play it to its fullest which is what he was arguing against. It proves that they knew there were issues with DA:O that many people didn't like and wanted to make changes.

Use of language like simplified and not wanting to confuse people. Did you think enchanting was complex?

What he's saying is the only reason DA2 was even as complex as it was , is because it was only designed by the core team. He would have liked it to be even simpler.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 mars 2011 - 06:15 .

[ShadyKat]

Both games had their fair share of problems. I just think too many people here think Origins was 100% flawless, and the greatest RPG of all time. When it was good, but generic at the same time. The story, setting and characters have all been done a thousand times over. And certain parts of the game did plod on (Mages tower, Fade and the Deep Roads) Also the combat was indeed too slow, and very clunky.


However, DA2 didn't really fix the problems, they just removed 99% of them. The combat is better, but now too fast, and spastic. The story was more original, yet far less epic. The Fade and Deep Roads sections were both over a little too fast....etc. A happy medium for DA3 would be much more appreciated, than just making it 100% like Origins.

[Baelyn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Use of language like simplified and not wanting to confuse people. Did you think enchanting was complex?

What he's saying is the only reason DA2 was even as complex as it was , is because it was only designed by the core team. He would have liked it to be even simpler.

He was saying that they DID not take this standpoint on this. Hence him saying that had they wanted to appeal to everyone, they would have taken out things like enchanting. To a little kid, yes the enchanting system probably would not have been something they would have gotten easily or even understood. Never does he say that it would be complex to a 30 year old man.

And yes. Enchanting was VERY complex to me. Can you explain it? /endsarcasm 

Where does he say the only reason DA2 was as complex as it was due to the fact it was designed by only the core team? Maybe I'm missing it but those two statements are unrelated in his response. He simply confirms that the game was only designed by the core team. Also he never said that he would have liked it to have been more simplified. Again only saying HAD they taken the standpoint of "Hey we want to make this game for everyone from 7 year olds to 50 year olds," they would have removed many things that in actuality are in the game.

[Baelyn]

TJSolo wrote...
Is the definition given accurate or not?

The "definition" is someone making up a phrase. Its called a neologism. It is a coined phrase that is not part of mainstream language therefore has no "provable" definition. Only what people make it up to mean.

The term "dumb down"  however could be used in the case of this game, but not in the case it has been portrayed by most people.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/dumb

See definiton 6 of the word "dumb." Yes this game is lacking in some characteristics of the first game (tactical camera, party member armor, etc.) but it seems that people are taking this to mean an alternate definiton of dumb which implies a drop in intelligence of the gamers who enjoy less complex games, which is simply rubbish.

Modifié par Baelyn, 24 mars 2011 - 06:35 .

[dheer]

ShadyKat wrote...
Both games had their fair share of problems. I just think too many people here think Origins was 100% flawless, and the greatest RPG of all time.

That's fair. Every game has some flaws, no doubt.

I'd say most of Origins flaws were in execution more than overall design. DA2 was designed with faults from the start and they didn't really improve on the execution flaws they made in the first game.

Hopefully the team can take an honest look at what really went wrong and the recognize root causes.

[AkiKishi]

dheer wrote...
That's fair. Every game has some flaws, no doubt.

I'd say most of Origins flaws were in execution more than overall design. DA2 was designed with faults from the start and they didn't really improve on the execution flaws they made in the first game.

Hopefully the team can take an honest look at what really went wrong and the recognize root causes.

That's kind of the point of sequels, which Bioware seems to have ignored. I was following Killzone 3 for ages, really nice guys, they corrected most of the problems from Killzone2. They did take away a lot of the "boss" battles, which I missed but overall, much improved on every front.

With DA2 , they ripped everything out of DA, reduced it to it's lowest and shipped it incomplete.

[TJSolo]

Baelyn wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
Is the definition given accurate or not?

The "definition" is someone making up a phrase. Its called a neologism. It is a coined phrase that is not part of mainstream language therefore has no "provable" definition. Only what people make it up to mean.

The term "dumb down"  however could be used in the case of this game, but not in the case it has been portrayed by most people.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/dumb

See definiton 6 of the word "dumb." Yes this game is lacking in some characteristics of the first game (tactical camera, party member armor, etc.) but it seems that people are taking this to mean an alternate definiton of dumb which implies a drop in intelligence of the gamers who enjoy less complex games, which is simply rubbish.

Certainly there are people that don't take kindly to the "dumb" part of dumbed down but that would them interpreting the phrase that way. The person that used it here attempted to point out how it was intended to be taken  in their post but quickly jumped on by people trying to assert their meaning as the true meaning.

[TheKnave69]

Baelyn wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
Is the definition given accurate or not?

The "definition" is someone making up a phrase. Its called a neologism. It is a coined phrase that is not part of mainstream language therefore has no "provable" definition. Only what people make it up to mean.

The term "dumb down"  however could be used in the case of this game, but not in the case it has been portrayed by most people.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/dumb

See definiton 6 of the word "dumb." Yes this game is lacking in some characteristics of the first game (tactical camera, party member armor, etc.) but it seems that people are taking this to mean an alternate definiton of dumb which implies a drop in intelligence of the gamers who enjoy less complex games, which is simply rubbish.

If you read the definition of "dumbed down:"
"—Verb phrase: dumb down, Informal . to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated"

then the game is, in fact, dumbed down.  The inventory management system has been simplified, the quest system has been simplified, the crafting system has been simplified, the dialog system has been simplified, the enchanting system has been simplified, the party customization system has been simplified...  Whether you say they were simplified, streamlined, or dumbed down, it is accuracte, and not just in terms of "lacking some usual property or characteristic..."

[fn_outlaw]

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's kind of the point of sequels, which Bioware seems to have ignored. I was following Killzone 3 for ages, really nice guys, they corrected most of the problems from Killzone2. They did take away a lot of the "boss" battles, which I missed but overall, much improved on every front.

With DA2 , they ripped everything out of DA, reduced it to it's lowest and shipped it incomplete.

Currently my favorite topic.

I love how Mike Laidlaw put it:

Well it's hard to know exactly what's going on with scores that are really, really negative. One possible culprit could just be a change backlash, i.e. this isn't Origins and I wanted Origins 2.

No, its not Origins 2.  IT's DRAGON AGE 2, which implies SEQUEL.  Considering there is no "dragon age 1" that means Origins is the only possible predecessor.  Unless they're counting it as Dynasty Warriors 13 (or whatever number they're up to).

[EccentricSage]

arathor_87 wrote...

Didn't David Gaider post in a thread that some of us live in denial about the changes in DA2?

And I wonder, how lives in denial now? Laidlaw and Gaider? ; )

I would say it depends upon which changes Gaider is refering to.  I do think some fans in all fairness dislike some of the changes, or some of the cut corners, and rather than try to diferentiate between the good and the bad, they just start raving about how it ALL sucks.  Which is just as counterproductive as Laidow and the level designer's willful ignorance as to some of the valid criticisms fans do put forth.

I know I myself initially had some wrong impressions about the graphics.  I admit I was wrong.  More people should.

I still have some valid criticism about the dated unatural looking animations in some cut scenes and conversations, the elven redesign being a bit too extreem and needing refining, the lack of decent facial animations during emotional conversations, the completely rediculous idea of going into battle barefoot or wearing an open shirt with no support or armor, etc.  If they think we are in denial for calling certain elements of design into question, then I just don't even know what to ssay to that.