Aller au contenu

Photo

BioWare's Mike Laidlaw comment on DAII feedback


476 réponses à ce sujet

#176
Baelyn

Baelyn
  • Members
  • 785 messages

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Abraxas11 wrote...



I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"


I forgot the kubler-ross model...what comes after denial?

Edit: Sorry, didn't link www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview


Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

They were clear from the start that this bothered them and they wanted to make a less intimidating game to people who aren't familiar/used to RPG's.

I don't get how people can say "Man I couldn't even finish DA2 because it was so bad/I didn't like it/it wasn't Origins" etc....but then in the next thread..."Man anyone who couldn't finish origins must be a dumb console-playing mouther breathing retard." 


If most players don't finish the game maybe they should just 'streamline' endings. Then they could offer the real ending as a DLC seeing as the more hardcore players are the ones willing to finish the game and consequently happen to be the contingent that buys all the DLC ... oh wait, um ...


Your logic is impeccable. It isn't the ending that made people not finish DA:O (how does that even make sense?) 

Its the beginning.

But not sure as to why I am even responding to this as its clear you just wanted to get in a snide remark about DLC.

#177
Baelyn

Baelyn
  • Members
  • 785 messages

TJSolo wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Abraxas11 wrote...


I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"


I forgot the kubler-ross model...what comes after denial?

Edit: Sorry, didn't link www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview


Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

They were clear from the start that this bothered them and they wanted to make a less intimidating game to people who aren't familiar/used to RPG's.

I don't get how people can say "Man I couldn't even finish DA2 because it was so bad/I didn't like it/it wasn't Origins" etc....but then in the next thread..."Man anyone who couldn't finish origins must be a dumb console-playing mouther breathing retard." 


The amount of players that didnot finish DAO would be an interesting number if it was published and compared to the amount of players that don't finish games in general.  For all we know it could be normal for most players not to finish a game and  that increasing the easy of player is not going change that.


I, too, would love to see this number. But we don't know it so you can either:

a) Believe Bioware that they wouldn't just make something like this up

or 

B) Choose not to and that its just a ploy to justify the changes.

Entirely up to you. I, personally, give them the benefit of the doubt in that they truly thought that this was an issue and that they could make it better.

#178
dielveio

dielveio
  • Members
  • 330 messages
As the story goes, after Origins people were whining about "saving the world" was too common.
Now they made Hawke almost DOOM the world and people are whining as well.

#179
NKKKK

NKKKK
  • Members
  • 2 960 messages
"My people love me."

-Colonel Gaddafi-

#180
moilami

moilami
  • Members
  • 2 727 messages

Baelyn wrote...

Abraxas11 wrote...


I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"


I forgot the kubler-ross model...what comes after denial?

Edit: Sorry, didn't link www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview


Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

They were clear from the start that this bothered them and they wanted to make a less intimidating game to people who aren't familiar/used to RPG's.

I don't get how people can say "Man I couldn't even finish DA2 because it was so bad/I didn't like it/it wasn't Origins" etc....but then in the next thread..."Man anyone who couldn't finish origins must be a dumb console-playing mouther breathing retard." 


Who the hell can say in straight face DA was intimidating. Or if average "gamer" can say so, then I really don't know what to say. I have a picture though. A picture of big baby being spoonfed.

#181
supertouch

supertouch
  • Members
  • 49 messages
it's a brazen move to claim that the development team heeded the few concerns over origins' formidable gameplay and then used this feedback to change the series. bioware has made it quite clear that they only care about revenue. how could these minor complaints have possibly outweighed the financial and critical success of origins? 

#182
Baelyn

Baelyn
  • Members
  • 785 messages

moilami wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Abraxas11 wrote...


I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"


I forgot the kubler-ross model...what comes after denial?

Edit: Sorry, didn't link www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview


Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

They were clear from the start that this bothered them and they wanted to make a less intimidating game to people who aren't familiar/used to RPG's.

I don't get how people can say "Man I couldn't even finish DA2 because it was so bad/I didn't like it/it wasn't Origins" etc....but then in the next thread..."Man anyone who couldn't finish origins must be a dumb console-playing mouther breathing retard." 


Who the hell can say in straight face DA was intimidating. Or if average "gamer" can say so, then I really don't know what to say. I have a picture though. A picture of big baby being spoonfed.


Example:

Me (a motorcyle enthusiast) : Man who can say riding a motorcyle is intimidating? You just ride it like a bike but use the throttle and clutch and have to shift gears.

A person who was never even ridden a bike: Uhhhh

To a person that has not ever played anything similar to an RPG (I.E. Someone who has only played a game like God of War where you simply have to press buttons in succession to execute combos and go through the linear levels) introducing them to system of attributes, talents, inventory, party management, crafting, skills, yes...will be intimidating for most. Its not that they are dumb (just as someone who has never ridden a bike before isn't dumb) its just that they are limited in their experience.

So please. Get off your RPG high horse. You are no more intelligent for playing RPG's than Joe Console is for playing God of War.

#183
Guest_Puddi III_*

Guest_Puddi III_*
  • Guests

TJSolo wrote...

The amount of players that didnot finish DAO would be an interesting number if it was published and compared to the amount of players that don't finish games in general.  For all we know it could be normal for most players not to finish a game and  that increasing the easy of player is not going change that.


Yeah, it could be that they relied too much on the playthrough data they gathered in DAO without the proper perspective to come to some misguided conclusions about what needed fixing for DA2.

#184
Merced652

Merced652
  • Members
  • 1 661 messages

Balerion84 wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

Balerion84 wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...


Instead of exploding when you stab someone in the back why can't the blade just go through them sending blood squirting from the wounds while the victim coughs and spews a litre of blood from their mouth and fall over twitching?

Because that requires more time on animations, which they didn't have.


http://social.biowar...04231534252.jpg

This looks shopped. I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.


:lol:

icwutudidthar

#185
dheer

dheer
  • Members
  • 705 messages

Baelyn wrote...
Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

Most games are never finished by the general gaming public. It's not unique to DA:O or DA2. Trying to steamline a game so more will finish it is a mistake of reading too much into your gathered gameplay stats.

#186
Altima Darkspells

Altima Darkspells
  • Members
  • 1 551 messages

dheer wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

Most games are never finished by the general gaming public. It's not unique to DA:O or DA2. Trying to steamline a game so more will finish it is a mistake of reading too much into your gathered gameplay stats.


Plus the ending itself is crap in DA2, as well.

Frankly, I'm amazed I finished DA2 at all, and that's with my just using the killallhostiles code for most of the last act.

#187
MonkeyLungs

MonkeyLungs
  • Members
  • 1 912 messages

dheer wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

Most games are never finished by the general gaming public. It's not unique to DA:O or DA2. Trying to steamline a game so more will finish it is a mistake of reading too much into your gathered gameplay stats.


It just means that games don't really need endings anymore. The endings can be sold to the people who want to pay for them as DLC's as these people are the ones most likely to finish them.

The games can be made to be about 4 or 5 hours long with really intense story focus for those 4 or 5 hours and alot of blood and explosions and great cinematics.

#188
Baelyn

Baelyn
  • Members
  • 785 messages

Altima Darkspells wrote...

dheer wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

Most games are never finished by the general gaming public. It's not unique to DA:O or DA2. Trying to steamline a game so more will finish it is a mistake of reading too much into your gathered gameplay stats.


Plus the ending itself is crap in DA2, as well.

Frankly, I'm amazed I finished DA2 at all, and that's with my just using the killallhostiles code for most of the last act.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I, personally, very much enjoyed the ending and thought it was quite good.

@dheer - While it might be a mistake, I don't think we could really know without the numbers. Its possible that the percentage of people that started the game vs. the people who finished it was much lower than the common average. Thus making it logical to assume that something is wrong there.

#189
Tantum Dic Verbo

Tantum Dic Verbo
  • Members
  • 3 221 messages

Filament wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

The amount of players that didnot finish DAO would be an interesting number if it was published and compared to the amount of players that don't finish games in general.  For all we know it could be normal for most players not to finish a game and  that increasing the easy of player is not going change that.


Yeah, it could be that they relied too much on the playthrough data they gathered in DAO without the proper perspective to come to some misguided conclusions about what needed fixing for DA2.


I wonder how the game would have been received if it didn't come across as rushed, that is to say, if the changes had been better implemented.  Many of the perceived problems (like recycled environments) aren't necessarily a change in design philosophy so much as unfortunate decisions to get the game out quickly.  It would be interesting to see what DA2 would have looked like if it were really the best work possible on that kind of game.

#190
scpulley

scpulley
  • Members
  • 292 messages
Sigh...every time I read his thoughts, it's the same thing. 'We know what's best and took a calculated risk'. This dude should be in politics, some of those questions he pretty much deflects with garbage. I still don't feel like there is a real honest look at what happened, though it was good to see that they intend to look at the game over the long haul in terms of feedback. I do think they really underestimated how negative some of the reaction would be. It may not be starting wars, but he got some new fans alright, but at a heavy cost. I wouldn't say that was what they wanted. If they aren't going to actually be honest about how they are looking at this, my hope is at least internally they are taking a look at things and making the changes needed to actually put out a polished game with a more clear story next. That and either use the import or don't, they wasted that import data and it would have been a lot better to not have done that at all imo.

#191
Dark Specie

Dark Specie
  • Members
  • 831 messages

dielveio wrote...

As the story goes, after Origins people were whining about "saving the world" was too common.
Now they made Hawke almost DOOM the world and people are whining as well.


But Hawke never seemed to have a clear goal, whereas Origins "saving the world" was a clear goal. The closest we come to a goal is "Hawke & his family trying to restart things in Kirkwall". Which, incidentally, is a goal that mostly falls apart as the story go, either way - it's like reaching the Archdemon only to be killed before reaching that goal without being able to do anything about it Image IPB.  Or worse.

#192
DocDoomII

DocDoomII
  • Members
  • 712 messages

MonkeyLungs wrote...

It just means that games don't really need endings anymore. The endings can be sold to the people who want to pay for them as DLC's as these people are the ones most likely to finish them.

The games can be made to be about 4 or 5 hours long with really intense story focus for those 4 or 5 hours and alot of blood and explosions and great cinematics.


stop giving them ideas!!

oh wait, they probabily already planned such a thing for da2

#193
TJSolo

TJSolo
  • Members
  • 2 256 messages

Baelyn wrote...


I, too, would love to see this number. But we don't know it so you can either:

a) Believe Bioware that they wouldn't just make something like this up

or 

B) Choose not to and that its just a ploy to justify the changes.

Entirely up to you. I, personally, give them the benefit of the doubt in that they truly thought that this was an issue and that they could make it better.


a) I know EA used the EAspybot for DAO, so I know they have some data on something. I do know that the way their data is gathered is prone to error and missing a median.

B) Of course it is the reason to justify the changes. That has been seen time and time again by the suits from EA Bioware. 


What they really thought is not what I am commenting on. I am saying the data gathered is inconclusive yet still  used to as conclusive support for the changes.

#194
moilami

moilami
  • Members
  • 2 727 messages

Baelyn wrote...

moilami wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Abraxas11 wrote...


I've certainly seen a fair amount of feedback that says, "I couldn't play Origins, I thought it was too slow, the story was too plodding, too typical, and Dragon Age II is awesome by comparison!"


I forgot the kubler-ross model...what comes after denial?

Edit: Sorry, didn't link www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview


Did you guys miss where the developers took statistics on the amount of people that started DA:O and didn't finish it?

They were clear from the start that this bothered them and they wanted to make a less intimidating game to people who aren't familiar/used to RPG's.

I don't get how people can say "Man I couldn't even finish DA2 because it was so bad/I didn't like it/it wasn't Origins" etc....but then in the next thread..."Man anyone who couldn't finish origins must be a dumb console-playing mouther breathing retard." 


Who the hell can say in straight face DA was intimidating. Or if average "gamer" can say so, then I really don't know what to say. I have a picture though. A picture of big baby being spoonfed.


Example:

Me (a motorcyle enthusiast) : Man who can say riding a motorcyle is intimidating? You just ride it like a bike but use the throttle and clutch and have to shift gears.

A person who was never even ridden a bike: Uhhhh

To a person that has not ever played anything similar to an RPG (I.E. Someone who has only played a game like God of War where you simply have to press buttons in succession to execute combos and go through the linear levels) introducing them to system of attributes, talents, inventory, party management, crafting, skills, yes...will be intimidating for most. Its not that they are dumb (just as someone who has never ridden a bike before isn't dumb) its just that they are limited in their experience.

So please. Get off your RPG high horse. You are no more intelligent for playing RPG's than Joe Console is for playing God of War.


Hahahahaha, I am certainly more intelligent than you. There is no doubts of that. First practical proof of is that I would had never done so freakingly stupid analogy like you did.

You can't ever compare motorcycles and RPGs in intimidating factor. If you drive a motorcycle it is real thing and serious stuff and you can kill yourself with it or break the bike causing financial losses. There is tons of power available (depending of the bike) with just a little twist of wrist - suddenly you have 150 horses in front of you pulling you forward.

In video game you have no threats to your safety.

Those two things are not comparable in any level.

Motorcyclist for life here (and been that before you were even born).

............................................________ 
....................................,.-'"...................``~., 
.............................,.-"..................................."-., 
.........................,/...............................................":, 
.....................,?......................................................\\, 
.................../...........................................................,} 
................./......................................................,:`^`..} 
.............../...................................................,:"........./ 
..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../ 
............./__.(....."~-,_..............................,:`........../ 
.........../(_...."~,_........"~,_....................,:`........_/ 
..........{.._$;_......"=,_......."-,_.......,.-~-,},.~";/....} 
...........((.....*~_......."=-._......";,,./`..../"............../ 
...,,,___.\\`~,......"~.,....................`.....}............../ 
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-" 
............/.`~,......`-...............................\\....../\\ 
.............\\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\\,__ 
,,_..........}.>-._\\...................................|..............`=~-, 
.....`=~-,_\\_......`\\,.................................\\ 
...................`=~-,,.\\,...............................\\ 
................................`:,,...........................`\\..............__ 
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==`` 
........................................_\\..........._,-%.......`\\ 

Modifié par moilami, 23 mars 2011 - 08:22 .


#195
moilami

moilami
  • Members
  • 2 727 messages

scpulley wrote...

Sigh...every time I read his thoughts, it's the same thing. 'We know what's best and took a calculated risk'. This dude should be in politics, some of those questions he pretty much deflects with garbage. I still don't feel like there is a real honest look at what happened, though it was good to see that they intend to look at the game over the long haul in terms of feedback. I do think they really underestimated how negative some of the reaction would be. It may not be starting wars, but he got some new fans alright, but at a heavy cost. I wouldn't say that was what they wanted. If they aren't going to actually be honest about how they are looking at this, my hope is at least internally they are taking a look at things and making the changes needed to actually put out a polished game with a more clear story next. That and either use the import or don't, they wasted that import data and it would have been a lot better to not have done that at all imo.


I want honest politicians. I am very sick and tired of liars.

#196
fn_outlaw

fn_outlaw
  • Members
  • 119 messages

Brenus wrote...
How is a game rated with 94% and 'RPG of the decade' (DA2) underated in your opinion compared to DAO whih was only rated around 85%?


I know that this thread is way beyond this, but I love it when people say that DA2 is the RPG of the decade.
There's still 9 years to go...
If RPG's arent better than this by 2019, I'm selling my PC....

PC gamer magazine, was obviously paid for their praise.

Modifié par fn_outlaw, 23 mars 2011 - 08:22 .


#197
EccentricSage

EccentricSage
  • Members
  • 1 067 messages
Sure would be nice if Laidow would pay attention to the constructive criticisms so many fans DO put forward instead of taking sides and only seeing the most extreme and thoughtless feedback as valid, and then only as long as it aligns with his agenda of propping up DA2 as a job well done.

I mean, seriously... he doesn't have to **** on Origins to say he's proud of 2. What a joke.

#198
supertouch

supertouch
  • Members
  • 49 messages
dragon age 3 should be in development for 5 or 6 years

#199
Dark Specie

Dark Specie
  • Members
  • 831 messages

supertouch wrote...

dragon age 3 should be in development for 5 or 6 years


Riiiiight. As if that'll ever happen Image IPB

#200
EccentricSage

EccentricSage
  • Members
  • 1 067 messages
Wait... wait... RPG of the decade?! XD People realize that was the HYPE, right? They were asserting it as such before it even hit the shelves. Just saying it over and over again does not make it true.


Also, define 'finish' DA:O.  Does that mean 100% content completion, or just beating the Archdemon?  Maybe what they should really look at is the amount of time people willingly spend in DA:O, if they have such a capability? 

For me, finishing the game is not even the most important part.  I STILL play DA:O, I have plenty of unfinished playthroughs, and I LOVE the game.  If people were quiting only 10 hours in or something THAT would reflect Negatively, not people logging in over a hundred hours, but never 'finishing'.  Who the hell are they to tell me how to play the game?

Modifié par EccentricSage, 23 mars 2011 - 08:32 .