22 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolf Of Khorne]

The linear game play, story and the lack of different consequences to the actions of our champion Hawke, also the fact that even the preset Hawke could not be changed one bit. Along with the majority of story line is set in stone i wonder if Bioware are almost forcing us to how they wanted/designed the story to go.

The fact that we lose our brother/Sister in one of 2 ways always happens and our poor mother is always mutilated regardless of whether Du Puis is killed or not (whats the point of giving us the choice?) I've played a few times now and the ending is pretty much the same regardless.

Does this mean that number 3 will be the same? that they've already mapped the story and we again lose the RPG feel? and end up feeling that we wont be telling OUR story as we could in DAO?

Is there a way the game can somehow be salvaged and DA bring back some of its glory?

Wolf Of Khorne

The Blood God's Puppy

[AntiChri5]

In Origins, our choices determined what Ferelden was.

In DA2, our choices determine who Hawke is.

I prefer DA2.

[ongnei]

They improve the graphic and gameplay,but the story and logic sucks badly,still I enjoy DA2..

[Suron]

AntiChri5 wrote...

In Origins, our choices determined what Ferelden was.

In DA2, our choices determine who Hawke is.

I prefer DA2.

if by "who Hawke is" you mean only in the context of whether (s)he's jovial, nice, or a ******..then yah it does..otherwise...DA2 doesn't change via your "choices" in any way.

[AntiChri5]

if by "who Hawke is" you mean only in the context of whether (s)he's jovial, nice, or a ******..then yah it does..otherwise...DA2 doesn't change via your "choices" in any way.

The way you combine the options determine what kind of Hawke you are roleplaying.

How does the world changing due to your choices affect who your character is?

[Lithuasil]

AntiChri5 wrote...

In Origins, our choices determined what Ferelden was.

In DA2, our choices determine who Hawke is.

I prefer DA2.

QFfT.

Fixing every problem in the world in either the Saint or the **** way is *not* roleplaying kids.

[Suron]

AntiChri5 wrote...

if by "who Hawke is" you mean only in the context of whether (s)he's jovial, nice, or a ******..then yah it does..otherwise...DA2 doesn't change via your "choices" in any way.

The way you combine the options determine what kind of Hawke you are roleplaying.

How does the world changing due to your choices affect who your character is?

except DA:O did it better..you could be a staint, jovial, a ******, or somewhere inbetween (it just wasn't voiced) AND you changed the world around you (who you sided with, who was kind/queen, bhelen/harrowmount, etc)

in DA2 the ONLY thing you determine is your characters personality..NOTHING else.

how can you prefer DA2's way when both games did that but Origins offered more...because the Warden couldn't be voiced?

ok then.

I mean the only "choice" you get is Templar or Mages and even that doesn't change ANYTHING...Orsino still goes abomination on you and Meredith still tries to kill you....it's akin to Wynne turning on you at the Mage tower even if you choose to save the mages...."choice" is DA2 is an oxymoron

Modifié par Suron, 23 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[Akron1983]

Lithuasil wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

In Origins, our choices determined what Ferelden was.

In DA2, our choices determine who Hawke is.

I prefer DA2.

QFfT.

Fixing every problem in the world in either the Saint or the **** way is *not* roleplaying kids.

Yet, you could do all that and more in DA:O. You simply had more options.
The only thing that might add to the roleplaying experience in DA2 is "better" graphics and voiceacting. But since you claim to be the expert on roleplaying Im sure you understand that voiceacting can come in the way of creating your own voice for the character

[Talladarr]

One of the main reason s I have trouble goign back to Origins is the new battle system. I love it. If I t weren't for that, I'd likely be playing Origins.
But Istill think that DA2 is a good game, and I really don't regred buying it

[Lithuasil]

Akron1983 wrote...

Yet, you could do all that and more in DA:O. You simply had more options.
The only thing that might add to the roleplaying experience in DA2 is "better" graphics and voiceacting. But since you claim to be the expert on roleplaying Im sure you understand that voiceacting can come in the way of creating your own voice for the character

The whole "having more options" thing, is entirely nostalgia. In the end of DA2, War breaks out, and your decisions on the way have determined which of your characters are dead, and where the rest of them goes.
In the end of Origins, the Archdemon is dead, and your decisions on the way have determined which of your characters are dead, and where the rest of them goes.
Sound familliar?
Now, there's one decisive difference. Hawke is forced down a narrow road by circumstance (and you can roleplay how she herself deals with these circumstances). The Warden is forced down a narrow road by the writers, and unless you happen to be Aragorn or Skelletor, there isn't much roleplaying going on.

And I'd agree that voiceacting, in a PnP game, gets in the way of immersion. In a videogame, where my choices will always be limited however - turning mute the second a conversation starts up, kind of breaks (my) immersion more.

[AntiChri5]

except DA:O did it better..you could be a staint, jovial, a ******, or somewhere inbetween

You could never really be "in between" in Origins. You simply chose between which extreme you wanted and mixed them based on the situation to determine your character.

how can you prefer DA2's way when both games did that but Origins offered more...because the Warden couldn't be voiced?

Origins way of always being able to determine the outcome of everything and influence national politics in every way broke my willing suspension of disbelief.

I mean the only "choice" you get is Templar or Mages and even that doesn't change ANYTHING...Orsino still goes abomination on you and Meredith still tries to kill you....it's akin to Wynne turning on you at the Mage tower even if you choose to save the mages...."choice" is DA2 is an oxymoron

You get plenty more choices then that, the difference is that the DA2 choices are about deciding who you are whiling the DA:O choices are about deciding what outcome you desire.

[Zeolones]

It´s kind of like they are going straight for console and your casual on-the-run-rpg. No need to think or even be able to read.
I like DA2 but its no rpg an NO it´s not even an action-rpg. It´s just a party based Darksiders or something like that.

But maybe we are lucky and bioware learns from the errors and takes a real choice where to go in DA3: action OR rpg. They managed that in two times now:
As we remeber the combat system in ME1 was strange too and got better while the rpg elements got worse.
As we remember NWN 1 (here i would place DA2) got boosted to a real rpg in NWN2 (here i hope to see DA3)

[Akron1983]

In the end they might appear the same but along the way they are not.
In the tower, kill mages or not.
Redcliff, kill boy, kill mother or kill both. Make a deal with a demon?
Orzammar, Harrowmount or Bhelen.
Deep roads, destroy the anvil or not.
Dalish camp, werewolves or elves.
Denerim, Who did you make king or queen?
Haven, did you defile the ashes for the sake of the cult or didnt you? Who were with you? Did you have Leliana or Wynne turn against you?
Even the sidequests with the mercenaries (cant rememeber name) you get to choose between the father or the son and their diffrent way of thinking.
After you defeated the archdemon there are still differences that you can play around with. Did your warden die a heroes death, did Alistair die? Maybe loghain? Or maybe you took the dark ritual? Who performed it? Did you part with Morrigan o good terms? Why? Why not?
I could make this list so much longer. All of them adding to the depth of a roleplaying experience and also to the depth of my character.

[RazorrX]

I think DA2 would have been an awesome game if it had not come right after DA:O. DA2 has some awesome improvements - the combat/magic system is much better to me, the game puts you more into the fighting and that is cool, you can be more twitch player, etc.

The story is well crafted, the companions are awesome, etc. The problem is - no real impact to the story. NOTE I have said to the story not to the world. Totally different animal.

This was not a voice acting issue, it was a design issue. My only problem with voice acting is that A) it never sounds like I want to sound - tonal quality is too high, i prefer a deeper voice and limits races in a world where you have given each race/group an accent. I like what voice acting can do, I dislike what it limits.

This was the result of how the story was crafted. A game that has similar elements (Ie Fully voiced, can pick 3 different ways to play (kind/snarky/tough etc.) but actually had impact to the story is Alpha Protocol. AP had a horrible game system (well not horrible, just a bit too late to have something more like ME1 than ME2). But it is similar to DA2 in many ways. Linear story, voice acting and stances in conversations (and some of them were quite good).

The difference between the two is in AP you actually CAN change the game. Depending on who you side with for each mission, etc. your mission changes slightly (but it does change). Depending on who you side with your ending is different (slightly but it is different). Depending on how you play you can actually goad a main bad guy to stay and fight (and die) way earlier than if you choose a different route. SO there is the impression of affecting the story.

DA2 does not have that. In act 2 no matter what dialog you pick, you step away and let the templars take Bethany. No fight, nothing. They even insult/threaten you as they leave. In act 3 pic a side from the beginning and see how the game is exactly the same. You fight the same mobs, the same quests, etc. The ONLY difference is in an epilog you can be a token Viscount.

THAT is where DA2 let me down, I expected more from Bioware.

[Lithuasil]

All the points you make are things, where any possible choice completed the exact same quests, in the exact same environments, did something in a dialogue and got a slightly different cutscene. Mighty nonlinear gameplay indeed.

@Zeolones
Hell no. What dragon age needs in terms of gameplay is this


and not this

[Zeolones]

I would be pleased if they just go one way. Not try to merge and produce something like DA2.
I am happy with a "story" even in a game like Duke Nuke em 3D and want to know how it ends but thats no rpg ;P

by the way:
Where can i see, hear, or read anything about the characters in the end of DA2? Oo
Did i miss the ending or a ending at all? Oo

Modifié par Zeolones, 23 mars 2011 - 01:41 .

[Lithuasil]

The thing is, all those "old school rpg elements" that people claim so loudmouthed contradict the very notion of roleplaying - what I do in NWN isn't roleplaying, I'm just supervising a random-heroic group in Wow. Gameplay should add to the immersion, work hand in hand with the story, and lend itself as another medium - yet the self proclaimed roleplayers demand a form of gameplay that makes it worse, that makes the gap between cutscenes and gameplay "bigger" rather then closing it.

[sten_super]

Akron1983 wrote...

In the end they might appear the same but along the way they are not.
In the tower, kill mages or not.
Redcliff, kill boy, kill mother or kill both. Make a deal with a demon?
Orzammar, Harrowmount or Bhelen.
Deep roads, destroy the anvil or not.
Dalish camp, werewolves or elves.
Denerim, Who did you make king or queen?
Haven, did you defile the ashes for the sake of the cult or didnt you? Who were with you? Did you have Leliana or Wynne turn against you?
Even the sidequests with the mercenaries (cant rememeber name) you get to choose between the father or the son and their diffrent way of thinking.
After you defeated the archdemon there are still differences that you can play around with. Did your warden die a heroes death, did Alistair die? Maybe loghain? Or maybe you took the dark ritual? Who performed it? Did you part with Morrigan o good terms? Why? Why not?
I could make this list so much longer. All of them adding to the depth of a roleplaying experience and also to the depth of my character.

You are right, there clearly are more consious decisions in DAO than in DA2. However they do exist in DA2, if you look for them, they just aren't as obvious. In the first Act, do you kill all of the blood mages in the cave, or do you kill the leader and give the rest to Thrask? Do you help Merrill complete the mirror or not? etc. etc.

The line pedalled on here a lot is that the choices in DA2 are pointless because the ending is the same. That entirely misses the point of any RPG PC game that I can think of that's been made in the past 10 years, which are all guilty of exactly the same thing. Are the choices that you make in Origins pointless because ultimately the Archdemon is always defeated? Are the choices made in KOTOR pointless because Malak always dies? 

It's not the brief epilogue that makes these games; it is the journey to get there. DA2 is a lot more obvious in this respect, mainly because a lot of people feel the ending isn't particularly epic, but it's true of all the games I've mentioned (and many more besides).

[Zeolones]

Lithuasil wrote...

The thing is, all those "old school rpg elements" that people claim so loudmouthed contradict the very notion of roleplaying - what I do in NWN isn't roleplaying, I'm just supervising a random-heroic group in Wow. Gameplay should add to the immersion, work hand in hand with the story, and lend itself as another medium - yet the self proclaimed roleplayers demand a form of gameplay that makes it worse, that makes the gap between cutscenes and gameplay "bigger" rather then closing it.

The problem of getting rel choices in a programed game are not realy my topic here. If give you that even DA:O is not a real roleplay game, well not even BG2 if you look at it this way. But only a good story that feels apropied for the character isn´t a roplay either.
If we have to take what we can get in this gerne we need games like BG2, NWN2, DA:O and not action based games with a nice story.
Just finished Arkham Asylum and it was rly great (love Batman), i even could get some skillpoints set  --> still no rpg
A rpg is about changing the story and the developement of in in may way. making an impact on the surrounding world. discovering secrets while not going for the main plot at all. having long circeling dialoges. getting into other characters and maybe "deal with them". and see the outcome of all this / have a "unique" experianse of a programed story, that feels like it hgas your name on it.

[Kartikeya]

The overriding feeling of DA2 seems to be that a storm is inevitably coming. No one person can stop it, not even someone who has apparently been built up as a larger than life hero like Hawke. You can't solve every problem or save everyone. In fact, in DA2, NPCs can and will have minds of their own and do exactly what they want to do, often to their own detriment. The person above put it best: DA2 is about deciding who Hawke is.

I honestly don't understand why this should decide if the game is an RPG or not. People seem to like to pull out the 'it's not a REAL RPG' card every time they don't like a game listed as an RPG. You are playing a character. You get to decide what they look like, what they can do, and how they respond to the situation around them. You pick who they fall in love with, and your decisions determine whether Hawke's friends like or hate him/her.

Hawke's not able to stop the ****storm that is the Templar/Mage conflict? Of course not. The ending is mostly the same regardless of choices? That's...pretty much every RPG ever made, guys. That this game was more personal and never about saving the world is something I can understand folks not appreciating, but I'm not sure why that disqualifies it from this genre of games.

[Silveryne]

AntiChri5 wrote...

In Origins, our choices determined what Ferelden was.

In DA2, our choices determine who Hawke is.

I prefer DA2.

My Hawke wasn't just a sarcastic woman, but she was also a woman who was horrified by the death of her mother, a woman who valued order and justice and tried to make a stand for both at the end, who stood against slavery, and earned the loyalty and love of several of her friends, regretted not being there to keep her sister safe from the templars, and regretted not spending more time with Isabela, who would later run off? And helping Anders instead of simply kicking him out of the party when she had a chance?

...No. Clearly, clearly Warden is better. Because I could pretend *I* was the Warden! With the lack of a voiced character and clever reinterpretation of dialogue ideas! My warden could be the person I wanted to be! Beyond, um, having all those origins forced upon you! And because dragunz are kewl and guess what I killed you guys? Hint: DRAGUNZ.

Liking DAO better is fine but really, let's cut this: "IT'S NOT AN RPG" stuff. It's more RPG than Diablo, and it has more endings than Torment did (ONLY ONE CUTSCENE?! WHAAAT! AN RPG SHOULD BE JUDGED BY THE NUMBER OF ENDING SCENES YOU GET.). People forget that putting in skill points and attributes and maybe selecting the sporadic dialogue option an RPG does not make, until it conveniences them. Then, a game where you make choices that impact the gameplay (beyond "hitting harder" and "shooting better") and not necessarily the end comes along and it's OH NO THIS ISN'T AN RPG YOU GUYS.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's less of what it is. It's an RPG. You not liking what it is doesn't change that fact.

Unless you're the RPG police. SHOW ME YOUR BADGE OFFICER.

Edit: The person above this post is 100% correct. And voices things in a saner fashion.

Modifié par Silveryne, 24 mars 2011 - 08:08 .

[Wolf Of Khorne]

Valid points to .. Most of you guys... i say most (last 2 posts have a fair view). Agreed, this game IS an RPG no matter if we liked it or not. however to me.. this game lost the RPG feel.. that it had in the last game.

My question is: Do you guys think that DA3 will be the same, more of a restricted storyline?

And: What do you think they could do to DA3 to step up their game?

[Xewaka]

Lithuasil wrote...

All the points you make are things, where any possible choice completed the exact same quests, in the exact same environments, did something in a dialogue and got a slightly different cutscene. Mighty nonlinear gameplay indeed.

@Zeolones
Hell no. What dragon age needs in terms of gameplay is this
*snipped first person single character melee combat*

and not this
*snipped pause and play full party control combat*

First person is a terrible perspective for melee combat games.

The best to date twitch-based melee gameplay created is this


That's Severance: The Blade of Darkness. And it is awesome.