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[Dean_the_Young]

Suron wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The first act is entirely built around Hawke gathering enough wealth and prestige that the Templars cannot touch the mage Hawke (pc or bethany).

bs.

Bethany is taken by the Templars if you don't take her to the deep roads.  There is NO WAY any mage can rise high enough in the chantry's eyes to not fall into their laws about mages having to be in the circle.

Except, of course, the case in point that proves the opposite: Mage Hawke.

That the Templars took Bethany really doesn't disprove that the wealth and status could have shielded her, since, well, you didn't really have the wealth or status at that point.

so no...you're wrong..Hawkes power and prestige would account for nothing once it's found out (s)he's a mage..ESPECIALLY if you're a blood mage.

Since Hawke's power and prestige do account for something, and a large number of people (including Meredith) are aware you are a mage, but that you simply aren't worth the cost to bring in and are of benefit otherwise...

the ONLY support Hawke may get is from the populace..and not even many of them because the MAJORITY fear mages....and for even those that would stick up for Hawke once (s)he's gotten that high in prestige wouldn't matter to Meredith OR the Chantry as a whole...ONLY Warden mages are "legally" outside of Chantry law.  And as we saw in Awakening some Templars don't even care about that...and Meredith obviously wouldn't either.

And from the Viscount, and from within the Templars, and from some of the Qunari (in a sense)-

Simply because most people fear mages in general doesn't mean that most people fear all mages. Hawke is that lucky, happy exception: people know Hawke is a mage, but more than a mage Hawke is the Champion.

Since Meredith quite obviously does care about Hawke's status and prestige as a factor in Meredith's greater problems about protecting the City, and needing the power to be able to do so and hunt down many of the same apostates Hawke does, you're actually appealing to legality as opposed to reality.

Yes, Hawke mage is an apostate. But Hawke isn't the only apostate, and certainly isn't the most dangerous one, and picking a fight vis-a-vis Hawke is a fight of the sort that would weaken Meredith's ability to address the greater apostate threat as a whole. Should she care, legally and in the ideal circumstance? No. But then, in the ideal circumstance a Templar Commander wouldn't be the most powerful figure in a country, even more powerful than the Grand Cleric. Meredith is not a normal Templar, or even the sort of Templar that would take Anders. Meredith is a different sort of Templar, with different priorities and calculations.

[Dr. Nexas]

Suron wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Bethany is taken by the Templars if you don't take her to the deep roads.  There is NO WAY any mage can rise high enough in the chantry's eyes to not fall into their laws about mages having to be in the circle.

so no...you're wrong..Hawkes power and prestige would account for nothing once it's found out (s)he's a mage..ESPECIALLY if you're a blood mage.

the ONLY support Hawke may get is from the populace..and not even many of them because the MAJORITY fear mages....and for even those that would stick up for Hawke once (s)he's gotten that high in prestige wouldn't matter to Meredith OR the Chantry as a whole...ONLY Warden mages are "legally" outside of Chantry law.  And as we saw in Awakening some Templars don't even care about that...and Meredith obviously wouldn't either.

Bethany specifically says in act 1 that you need to amass power and wealth so that the Templars cannot get to you. She is taken before you can amass this, and goes willingly so that she will not be a burden.

Meredith knows Anders is an apostate, but does not mess with him because Hawke is too powerful. Take Anders with you when doing that quest for Meredith in act 3 and they will bicker, she directly calls him "mage".

Hawke becomes very powerful in Kirlwall.

Act 1 = Unknown.

Act 2 = Protected by Viscount because you are working for him

Act 3 = Champion. Second most powerful person in the city, who Meredith wants as an ally, not an enemy.

Anders is a Warden.  Even if he "left" them...Warden mages don't fall under the same laws.  hence conscription.

you're wrong...fact.

oh and if power and prestige mattered then why would Isolde hire an apostate to teach her son to hide his magic if power and prestige would keep someone out of the circle?

you, my friend, need to re-read DA lore.  you're just flat out wrong.  whether you want to admit it or not.

I don't really think Meredith cares much about the Wardens nor do I think the Wardens would go out of there way to protect a deserter who was living in a city they have no prescense in.

Connor was being taught magic in secret because he was a time bomb waiting to happen. If he went and accidently set fire to something while Eamon being visited by the king or something no amount of money or political would be able to protect him. She would have to start bribing servants and others who knew to keep it a secret at some point.A mage Hawke has the benifit of controlling his/her powers so any accusations of magic would be hersay. He/she could simply go "Me? A mage? What are you talking about? Oh, look at this shiny gold coin that has fallen in your hand." Also Hawke has a sympathetic Templar in Thrask (and maybe Carver) who might be willing to run interferance.

[Naitaka]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Anders is a Warden.  Even if he "left" them...Warden mages don't fall under the same laws.  hence conscription.

Leaving the Wardens means you are going to be executed more then left to eternal freedom. Leaving them means you lose their protection.

you're wrong...fact.

This has to be the most senseless thing to say in a debate. If it is a fact that i am wrong doing so should be easy to prove, simply stating that i am is useless.

oh and if power and prestige mattered then why would Isolde hire an apostate to teach her son to hide his magic if power and prestige would keep someone out of the circle?

Because being the second most important person in Kirkwall is different to beig the 10th most important person in Ferelden?

you, my friend, need to re-read DA lore.  you're just flat out wrong.  whether you want to admit it or not.

I am better aquanted with the DA lore then you. In The Stolen Throne, there are two mages operating outside of the Circle who have strong political connections.

Who are you refering to? The only mages I remember from the book was Severan and Wilhelm. Severan was a Circle Mage appointed as an advisor to Meghren and Wilhelm was a freaking senior enchanter of the Ferelden Circle, neither of whom are apostates. The simple fact is Hawke not being arrested for being an apostate makes no sense even in the context of the game.

[AntiChri5]

You don't have to be an apostate to operate outside of the Circle.

Notice how there isn't a single mention of Templars looking over either of their shoulders? Because of their political connections, they are left alone so long as they don't do anything too crazy like blow up a chantry.

[Pandaman102]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The Act 3 reason is mildly plausible, assuming you aren't stabbing yourself with a staff and fueling your spells with the tomato juice that springs forth, but the Seneschal tells you quite plainly that the last Viscount was a tyrant that nobody liked and couldn't be removed... until he pissed off the Templars.

Does that sound like an office with enough influence to keep the Templars off the back of an apostate, much less a maleficar?

It depends entirely on how they handle the situation.

The Viscount likely does not have enough pull to shelter you indefinately, but he can keep you safe for a while before the Templars start moving politically. Remember, it takes them three years after the Viscount dies before they start trying to take over the guard.

Honestly I don't see what kind of clout the Viscount, a man who looks like he's about to have an ulcer trying to placate every political faction in Kirkwall, has over the Templars or how Meredith, who mentions seeing "too many reports" with your name on them would overlook an apostate/maleficar when she's as overzealous as she is. It makes even less sense if you play an aggressive/threatening mage who pisses on everyone's shoes; you aren't important enough in acts 1 and 2 that somebody you offend wouldn't rat you out... yet somehow nobody does.

Maybe there's a good reason, but so far it really doesn't look like anything other than a bad plot hole.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Being "important" is not a good enough reason for the Templars to ignore an apostate or blood mage.

Anywhere else, this would be true. But Kirkwall is not anywhere else: anywhere else, the Templars would not be interested in political complications because the Templars would not be interested in politics. Anywhere else, the Knight Commander wouldn't be in a position of such political power. Anywhere else, the Knight Commander wouldn't be invested in maintaining, and increasing, that political power, and so need to make the maneuverins to protect and increase such power.

In general, the Templars in Kirkwall have much more power than anywhere else, but it's always been the nature of political power that for all that it may amaze you what they can do with that power, you'd still be surprised what they can't do without risking it. And Meredith has plenty of in-character reasoning for not risking the power she does have unnecessarily.

[Dr. Nexas]

Pandaman102 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The Act 3 reason is mildly plausible, assuming you aren't stabbing yourself with a staff and fueling your spells with the tomato juice that springs forth, but the Seneschal tells you quite plainly that the last Viscount was a tyrant that nobody liked and couldn't be removed... until he pissed off the Templars.

Does that sound like an office with enough influence to keep the Templars off the back of an apostate, much less a maleficar?

It depends entirely on how they handle the situation.

The Viscount likely does not have enough pull to shelter you indefinately, but he can keep you safe for a while before the Templars start moving politically. Remember, it takes them three years after the Viscount dies before they start trying to take over the guard.

Honestly I don't see what kind of clout the Viscount, a man who looks like he's about to have an ulcer trying to placate every political faction in Kirkwall, has over the Templars or how Meredith, who mentions seeing "too many reports" with your name on them would overlook an apostate/maleficar when she's as overzealous as she is. It makes even less sense if you play an aggressive/threatening mage who pisses on everyone's shoes; you aren't important enough in acts 1 and 2 that somebody you offend wouldn't rat you out... yet somehow nobody does.

Maybe there's a good reason, but so far it really doesn't look like anything other than a bad plot hole.

Hawke is leading the charge in the Qunari peace process in Act 2. Its understandable that the Viscount would be willing to take a stand against Meredith over something so important.

[JJDrakken]

Defending weak story is weak.

JJ

[Naitaka]

AntiChri5 wrote...

You don't have to be an apostate to operate outside of the Circle.

Notice how there isn't a single mention of Templars looking over either of their shoulders? Because of their political connections, they are left alone so long as they don't do anything too crazy like blow up a chantry.

Would you mind sharing what evidence you have that support that view? Because from everything we've read in the game, or directly from the writers on the forum all suggest that mages are required by law to be trained inside the Circle of Magi and go through the Harrowing. Whether how much freedom they're allowed is irrelevent and most likely depends on the view of the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter of the Circles they're from. Most of the senior mages we've met outside don't have a Templar following them around either, but they're ALL Circle mages to begin with. Fact is, Hawke had nothing to do with the Circle to begin with, he's an UNLAWFUL mage, who has NOT gone through the Harrowing, DOES NOT have a phylactery and reports to NO ONE but himself the entire game, and that just doesn't seem plausible from everything we've been told about Thedas.

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

JJDrakken wrote...

Defending weak story is weak.

JJ

Defending logical aspects is logical.

Making misguided arguments is misguided.

[Lithuasil]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JJDrakken wrote...

Defending weak story is weak.

JJ

Defending logical aspects is logical.

Making misguided arguments is misguided.

While not dragging Hawke off to the circle is definitely it's weakest point, calling one of the best stories that have been told by videogames, to this very day, weak might be a bit daring indeed.

[AntiChri5]

Would you mind sharing what evidence you have that support that view? Because everything we're read in the game, or directly from the writers suggest that mages are required by law to be trained inside the Circle of Magi and go through the Harrowing. Whether how much freedom they're allowed is irrelevent. Most of the senior mages we've met outside don't have a Templar following them around either, but they're ALL Circle mages to begin with. Fact is, Hawke had nothing to do with the Circle to begin with, he's an UNLAWFUL mage, who has NOT gone through the Harrowing, DOES NOT have a phylactery and reports to NO ONE but himself the entire game, and that just doesn't seem plausible from everything we've been told about Thedas.

Enough political clout lets you flout all sorts of laws. The viscount keeps you protected for a short time, and then you become the second most powerful person in the city.

Do not forget, the Templars in Kirkwall are busy, busy beavers. Look at how much mage/Templar conflict and anti-Meredith plotting is going on.

The Templars can't do everything at once, and Hawke is rather low on the list of priorities and too powerful to take on lightly.

[Naitaka]

Lithuasil wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JJDrakken wrote...

Defending weak story is weak.

JJ

Defending logical aspects is logical.

Making misguided arguments is misguided.

While not dragging Hawke off to the circle is definitely it's weakest point, calling one of the best stories that have been told by videogames, to this very day, weak might be a bit daring indeed.

I really hope you're not talking about DA2 because it's definately nowhere close to being one of the best story told in video game. Dragon Age as a franchise has a wealth material on lore and a very detailed, vibrant world at large but that should not be confused with plot. Imho, Bioware games have always been focused on character interaction and drama, not on delivering a well constructed overarching story.

[Pandaman102]

Dr. Nexas wrote...

Hawke is leading the charge in the Qunari peace process in Act 2. Its understandable that the Viscount would be willing to take a stand against Meredith over something so important.

That's only in the beginning of Act 2, however. There is that three year time skip when Hawke was simply rich and famous beforehand where keeping a low profile would have been difficult and many spells would have already been flung in the process of aquiring the 50 gold pieces.

Lithuasil wrote...

While not dragging Hawke off to the circle is definitely it's weakest point, calling one of the best stories that have been told by videogames, to this very day, weak might be a bit daring indeed.

While I liked what Bioware tried and the premise was promising, I wouldn't call DA2's story "one of the best" given its pacing problems. Good concept, colorful characters (except DA2 Anders, I'm glad Ser Pounce A Lot found a better home), absolutely awesome dominant personality system to deliver excellent, consistent (well, mostly, there were a few times when Hawke brainfarted and used aggressive tones despite a sacrastic personality) lines, but execution left a lot to be desired.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 23 mars 2011 - 02:17 .

[Naitaka]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Would you mind sharing what evidence you have that support that view? Because everything we're read in the game, or directly from the writers suggest that mages are required by law to be trained inside the Circle of Magi and go through the Harrowing. Whether how much freedom they're allowed is irrelevent. Most of the senior mages we've met outside don't have a Templar following them around either, but they're ALL Circle mages to begin with. Fact is, Hawke had nothing to do with the Circle to begin with, he's an UNLAWFUL mage, who has NOT gone through the Harrowing, DOES NOT have a phylactery and reports to NO ONE but himself the entire game, and that just doesn't seem plausible from everything we've been told about Thedas.

Enough political clout lets you flout all sorts of laws. The viscount keeps you protected for a short time, and then you become the second most powerful person in the city.

Do not forget, the Templars in Kirkwall are busy, busy beavers. Look at how much mage/Templar conflict and anti-Meredith plotting is going on.

The Templars can't do everything at once, and Hawke is rather low on the list of priorities and too powerful to take on lightly.

Where does it say in game that the Vicount is protecting you exactly? So far, all the evidences I've seen cited are conjesture and speculation by fans, if you're David Gaider, then fair enough, I'll take your word for it, but since you're NOT a writer at Bioware, I'd like to see what REAL evidence you have to allow you to reach that conclusion.

EDIT: Quite frankly, Morrigan is the only apostate that I've seen able to operate outside the Circle and doesn't belong to any powerful organization. Funny enough, the game actually included the option to turn her over to the templar, while unused, can be enabled with a mod.

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[Evolution33]

I think a lot of people are making the cardinal sin of critiquing. Instead of asking why something is the way it is they are assuming it is a mistake. There is a reason for everything in the story. A lot of the nobles in Kirkwall are mages and walk around in their mage robes. They are hiding the best way they can, in plain site. The templers probably just assume nobility fines mage robes to be fashionable. I just started a mage playthrough but there have been a lot of instances where it is acknowledged that I am a mage. It also makes since that Hawke wouldn't exactly announce this to the Templars, and part of the story of DA2 isn't just that the mages are unhappy with Merideth, but many of the templars as well. Even in Act 1 there is a quest where the templar recruits believe there is some secret ritual going on. People like Sampson and Thrask end up being more sympathetic to mages, and it is possible they aren't the only templars that feel this way. Even Cullen looks sympathetic when compared to Merideth.

[Lithuasil]

Pandaman102 wrote...

While I liked what Bioware tried and the premise was promising, I wouldn't call DA2's story "one of the best" given its pacing problems. Good concept, colorful characters (except DA2 Anders, I'm glad Ser Pounce A Lot found a better home), absolutely awesome dominant personality system to deliver excellent, consistent (well, mostly, there were a few times when Hawke brainfarted and used aggressive tones despite a sacrastic personality) lines, but execution left a lot to be desired.

The "execution" that left to be desired, was the implementation of said story into gameplay. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement here. But you can't blame the writers for that. And the story in itself, as far as videogame writing goes, is only second to very very few stories, atleast from the twohundred or so games I've played in my lifetime.

[AntiChri5]

Where does it say in game that the Vicount is protecting you exactly? So far, all the evidences I've seen cited are conjesture and speculation by fans, if you're David Gaider, then fair enough, I'll take your word for it, but since you're NOT a writer at Bioware, I'd like to see what REAL evidence you have to allow you to reach that conclusion.

It is based on logic and reasoning.

The Viscount rightly considers the qunari issue a serious one, and needs to deal with it.

There is only one person in the city the Arishok (who has made no secret of his contempt for the Viscount) respects, and that is Hawke. Well, perhaps respect is too strong a word. He thinks you aren't nearly as ****ty as everyone else.

Hawke represents the only option the Viscount has when dealing with the qunari, because the Arishok specifically requested that Hawke be their go-between. The Arishok has straight out eaid to the Viscount "This is the only one i will deal with". The Viscount has to keep Hawke safe until the qunari issue is resolved.

He may be planning to throw you to the Templars afterwards though.

[Pandaman102]

Evolution33 wrote...

I think a lot of people are making the cardinal sin of critiquing. Instead of asking why something is the way it is they are assuming it is a mistake. There is a reason for everything in the story.[...]

I don't know which is worse, that you think it's wrong to question inconsistencies or that you think writers can never do any wrong.

[RazorrX]

According to the Chantry Law - and a law that every ruler in every chantry occupied land holds to: if you are a mage, no matter of birth, wealth, power, etc. you are to be turned over to the circle.

Magic is to serve man not rule over him.

This line means that if you are the son of the emperor of Orlais and have magic talent, you are taken to the circle and can not inherit land, title, etc. You are taken from your family forever.

This line means that when Alistair, the king of Ferelden asked for the circle to be free as he could not just do it - was told NO.

This line is why Conner happened. Isolde knew that the moment it became known he had magic, templars would come to the uncle of the king of Ferelden and take his son away to the circle.

NO, Hawke is not protected by the Viscount, No his nobility does not protect him. The money was supposed to be used to pay off people who threatened to expose him (ie extortion). When you duel the Arishok the whole city knows you are a mage, you would be taken to the circle. You throw fireballs around saving Knight Captain Cullen and no mention of it.

The game flat out ignores the fact that you are a mage and are traveling with apostates. The ONLY time it is mentioned is near the end when Merideth says she knows what you are and has let you be free because you served her purpose.

So from a game play meets storyline perspective - you should not have been allowed to be a mage.

[Evolution33]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Evolution33 wrote...

I think a lot of people are making the cardinal sin of critiquing. Instead of asking why something is the way it is they are assuming it is a mistake. There is a reason for everything in the story.[...]

I don't know which is worse, that you think it's wrong to question inconsistencies or that you think writers can never do any wrong.

Strawman.

[AntiChri5]

I don't know which is worse, that you think it's wrong to question inconsistencies or that you think writers can never do any wrong.

You are misreading that line.

[Lithuasil]

RazorrX wrote...

So from a game play meets storyline perspective - you should not have been allowed to be a mage.

From a storyline perspective, the gameplay should adapt to the circumstances, give mages the means to defend themselves without casting, and punish you for using your powers openly. (and drag you off to the gallows - the third act would work just as well for a circle mage)

[Naitaka]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Where does it say in game that the Vicount is protecting you exactly? So far, all the evidences I've seen cited are conjesture and speculation by fans, if you're David Gaider, then fair enough, I'll take your word for it, but since you're NOT a writer at Bioware, I'd like to see what REAL evidence you have to allow you to reach that conclusion.

It is based on logic and reasoning.

The Viscount rightly considers the qunari issue a serious one, and needs to deal with it.

There is only one person in the city the Arishok (who has made no secret of his contempt for the Viscount) respects, and that is Hawke. Well, perhaps respect is too strong a word. He thinks you aren't nearly as ****ty as everyone else.

Hawke represents the only option the Viscount has when dealing with the qunari, because the Arishok specifically requested that Hawke be their go-between. The Arishok has straight out eaid to the Viscount "This is the only one i will deal with". The Viscount has to keep Hawke safe until the qunari issue is resolved.

He may be planning to throw you to the Templars afterwards though.

And you couldn't do that by being a Circle Mage sent to aide the Vicount on the Qunari issue why? Please, until you come up with solid evidence, there is NO argument here. I can say the Grand Cleric Elthina is a blood mage who secretly practice vile carnal acts with little elven boys but that doesn't make it true.

[Nathan Redgrave]

I found it interesting that Cullen seems totally ignorant to your magehood prior to Act 3, but during Act 3, if Mage Hawke speaks to him, he calls you the only mage in Kirkwall who could speak to the Knight-Commander directly (which makes me wonder about the First Enchanter). Once you're the Champion, it so happens that every noble in the city owes you their life, making you "the power" in the city, even able to openly speak against Meredith without immediate repercussions. I can understand this (Anders, at one point, also says that you're an inspiration for other mages, with both freedom and prestige, a living example of what they want).

In Act 3, once you're Champion of Kirkwall, it actually works. In previous acts, it also works... until the Templars display a total lack of ability to see Merril working blatant blood magic three feet in front of their faces. Then it gets a bit weird.